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Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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How is the Synthesist healing his Eidolon/Temp HP? I thought only the Eidolon specific heals worked on them. Did something change in the rules?

Liberty's Edge

Okay, let's look at Inquisitor:

Bernie, the Inquisitor:
CR 10
Human Inquisitor (Preacher) 10
NG Medium Humanoid
Init +13; Senses Perception +23

DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+6 Armor, +1 Deflection, +6 Dex, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Luck)
HP 58 (10d8+10)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +16

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee dagger +8/+3 (1d4+1/19–20)
Ranged longbow +16/+11 or Rapid Shot +14/+14/+9 (1d8+3/19-20x3) or Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim +12/+12/+7 (1d8+7/19-20x3) or Heroism + Divine Power + Bane + Judgment (Destruction + Justice) plus those mentioned previously +23/+23/+23/+18 (1d8+2d6+17/19-20x3)

SPELLS (Concentration +16)
4th: 2/day: Greater Invisibility, Divine Power,
3rd: 3/day: Dimensional Anchor, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Heroism, Nondetection,
2nd: 5/day: Acute Senses, Align Weapon, Flames of the Faithful, Honeyed Tongue, Invisibility, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Silence,
1st: 7/day: Alarm, Bless, Deadeye's Lore, Divine Favor, Expeditious Retreat, Protection From Evil, Shield of Faith, Wrath,
0th: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Light, Sift, Stabilize,

STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 22*, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 20*, Cha 7
BAB +7; CMB +8; CMD 27
Feats Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Stealth),
Skills: Climb +7, Bluff +20, Diplomacy +27, Disable Device +22, Heal +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (Arcana) +8/13, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +8/13, Knowledge (Local) +9/15, Knowledge (Nature) +8/13, Knowledge (Religion) +12/17, Knowledge (Planes) +12/17, Perception +23, Stealth +27, Sense Motive +25, Spellcraft +8, Survival +11, Swim +7,
Languages Common, 2 other irrelevant languages
Traits Friend In Every Town, Fate's Favored, Vagabond Child,
Drawback Hedonistic
Special Conversion Inquisition (Charm of Wisdom, Swaying Words - Save DC 20, 1 minute), Silver Tongued Racial Trait, Focused Study Racial Trait, Judgment 4/day, Determination 4/day, Detect Alignment, Bane (10 rds/day), Track (+5), Monster Lore (+5), Discern Lies (DC 19, 10 rds/day), Stern Gaze (+5),
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds (1), potion of lesser restoration (1), wand of cure light wounds (40 charges), potion of darkvision (1),
Other Gear Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Mithral Chain Shirt +2, Belt of Dexterity +4, Headband of Wisdom +4, Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Stone of Good Luck, +2 Composite Longbow (+1 Str Mod) w/60 arrows (20 Cold Iron, 20 Blunted and Silvered), cold iron dagger, about 140 gp of mundane equipment

Okay, so let's rock this:

Encounter #1:

So, Bernie sneaks up on these creatures to scout them out. He's got no real chance of being detected while invisible (+47 Stealth) and no real chance of not figuring out what they all are w/ Perception and Sense Motive through the roof. Even the succubus given Detect Alignment, Detect Magic, Knowledge-Planes and so on. So...he knows what he faces.

He'll go just out of hearing range, toss on about half a dozen buff spells including the ones listed above under his attack line, Expeditious Retreat, Protection from Evil, Align Weapon (Good), and Greater Invisibility.

He'll then return to about 90' from the group and attack the succubus first. Given he basically can't miss and averages 28 damage per attack (of which he has 5) he'll kill her during the first round before she even gets to act (given his absurd initiative), and probably start on the Fire Giant.

He'll rapidly do the same to the Fire Giant (I think that'll take two rounds), then the trolls and hellhounds. He'll finish the trolls off with Flames of the Faithful.

The DC to find him while he does this is about 28 given Invisibility and distance. The Fire Giant might do it before it dies...in which case it'll move 60 feet towards him, and he'll move 60 feet back shooting it once, and making it take a few turns longer to kill it, and might even lose Invisibility before the rest are dead...but given that he can switch Judgments pretty readily and go to 27 AC, none of the rest have a prayer since they'd need 20s to hit.

Encounter #2:

Okay, I admit, I bought the Potion of Darkvision just for this...but he had the gold more-or-less free, and buying something like that before this kind of mission is a necessity. And very doable.

With Darkvision, even sans Invisibility he casually sneaks by all the Zombies and with it, close enough to the Mohrg to, again, know what it is. He'll then drift back and do the same buffing routine (plus Shield of Faith and Wrath), move up 50 feet away, and shoot it, too, full of holes. If he gets lucky, rolls well, and beats it on Initiative he might kill it before it summons the Glabrezu. He certainly kills it soon after.

The Glabrezu is harder to deal with, and if it uses Power Word Stun it likely murders the Inquisitor. Power Word Stun plus True Seeing kill most single characters dead at this level. He can probably kill it in two rounds if it foregoes that specific trick, though. His Saves are sufficient to resist most of its other tricks.

As part of a group, he could almost certainly arrange for it to die before it got the summons off by Invisibility-ing up his party to get them near it. And even if it did summon, the Glabrezu is very takable by a good party.

Encounter #3:

Standard tactic again. The Erinyes may have True Seeing, but it lacks enough Perception for that to matter. So he scouts the place, retreats a bit, buffs and comes back with murder in his heart. He'l kill the Cleric first, before he even gets to act, gets shot at by the Erinyes for a round, likely gets hit once for 14 damage (given his 26 or so AC) and then murders her, too. The Bearded Devils and Skeletons die quickly after that to his blunted silvered arrows, likely never even getting in an effective attack given Greater Invisibility and AC 29 or so (from switching Judgments again).

Encounter #4:

Bernie will pull some sort of bluff to distract the guards (which should effect the Avorals as well), then sneak by. This isn't a sure bet, but with Bluff five higher than the Avorals Sense Motive and a Stealth 4 higher than their Perception, I'd bet on him.

Once past that little obstacle, he uses Acute Senses for a +20 to Perception (+43 total), notices everything, uses Dispel Magic on the door trap (which should work to suppress or destroy it, I think), and takes 20 to pick the lock. With the door open, he'll buff up, use Silence on, oh, his bow and then kill the Golem in two rounds or so. It'll probably get a set of attacks off and, with his AC 26, hit both times doing 40 damage. So ouch. Alternately, he could sneak by it invisibly, remove the info the same way he got through the door, the very last bit while under Greater Invisibility, then amscray before the Queen gets there. Quite doable.

This is probably the iffiest after the Mohrg to do alone. A way of disabling magical traps would be lovely, as would a good melee fighter with an Adamantine Weapon to murder the Golem for him, if that was arrangeable.

Alternately, and more amusingly, he can probably (though not definitely, depending on her stats) simply convince/trick the queen into giving him the information, because he's really pretty unreasonably good at that.

Encounter #5:

With Honeyed Tongue and a +27 Diplomacy...this is actually trivial for Bernie to manage. He simply talks Incendius into, y'know, whatever he feels like, since they're best friends now (He renders Incendius Helpful on a roll of 6 nor higher on the die, and he rolls twice and takes the highest).

In a fight, he might not fare so well, but if using his standard tactic (plus Wrath and Resist Energy) he would and could deal something like 155 damage in the first and surprise rounds before Incendius knew what was going on. Incendius would be likely to then use his breath weapon and close to melee if he could (and with 200 ft flight speed, he can). Bernie would survive the breath weapon, and probably be relatively likely to only take 4 or 5 damage if he makes the save (he takes 29 average if he fails). Or he might just get charged and bitten for 49, but at less than 50/50 odds due to miss chance. He'd then maybe take another 35 (again, less than 50% chance) from an AoO due to firing while in melee, and (if he was still alive) then kill Incendius dead. So...combat's iffy on his own. With a party for backup he can destroy the poor dragon.

Notes:

Now, it's worth noting that all of the above assumes one encounter a day. He can probably manage two of most of them by foregoing Divine Power for Divine Favor (dropping an attack but nothing else), though the Mohrg is iffy, but he simply needs that Greater Invisibility to waltz through these as he does. Though, in fairness, #5 barely involves any spells at all as long as it's handled through Diplomacy. Now, in a party, the Greater Invisibility wouldn't be nearly as essential, but it's worth noting that that specific trick is what got him through a lot of it.

Liberty's Edge

Velocinox wrote:
How is the Synthesist healing his Eidolon/Temp HP? I thought only the Eidolon specific heals worked on them. Did something change in the rules?

He has one of his 1st level spells specified. He could easily have Rejuvenate Eidolon (Lesser) on his list. Or a Wand of it.

Silver Crusade

Okay, almost done with my entry, she's a little gear dependent, but seeing as she can craft it all herself, it's not really an issue.


For Bernie Encounter 3 requires you to approach with no cover or concealment. The Erinyes will see you coming and alert Godric. Invisibility Purge may gives you issues.

For encounter 2 Blasphemy has a 25% chance of Paralyzing you for 1d10 minutes and auto paralyses for 1 round at minimum. He has many zombies who will crawl through the area hunting for you.

For encounter 1 six opponents with scent moving through the area hunting for you may force you to move quite a bit more than you are accounting for.

On equipment you seem to be well over WBL with over 80k of gear.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Velocinox wrote:
How is the Synthesist healing his Eidolon/Temp HP? I thought only the Eidolon specific heals worked on them. Did something change in the rules?
He has one of his 1st level spells specified. He could easily have Rejuvenate Eidolon (Lesser) on his list. Or a Wand of it.

Sure, but he specifically says he heals up after the fight with LOH and wands (wands he has specifically named as cure wounds wands)


Also on Bernie for encounter 4 your dispel magic wont be enough for the trap given your caster level of 10. For the golem once it gets into melee with you you don't seem to have any way out. Your attacks then provoke so if it chooses to grapple or sunder you could be in trouble. Whether golems, being mindless, have the ability to do so may be an open question but that could be a real problem for you.


For Bernie, Clustered Shots would be a good feat to take against the golem.


OK, I posted this character in the very short lived rogues are overpowered thread. I am just going to pop him in here and look to see how he contributes to these various challenges although probably not until tomorrow.

Casimir the Rogue:

Casimir
Male Half-Elf (Varisian) Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) 10
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +23

--------------------
Defense
--------------------

AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 72 (10d6+30)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +13; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., fly 40 (average)

Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +22):

5th (4/day)— overland flight, hold monster (DC 23)
4th (7/day)—charm monster (DC 22), dimension door, elemental body i, emergency force sphere, fear (DC 22), greater invisibility
3rd (8/day)—aqueous orb (DC 23), dispel magic, fireball (DC 21), haste, paragon surge, stinking cloud (DC 23), suggestion (DC 21)
2nd (8/day)—command undead (DC 20), create pit (DC 22), glitterdust (DC 22), invisibility, mirror image, pilfering hand, resist energy
1st (8/day)—disguise self, grease (DC 21), identify, liberating command, mage armor, protection from evil, silent image (DC 19), snowball (DC 21)
0 (at will)—acid splash, arcane mark, daze (DC 18), detect magic, detect poison, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation (DC 18)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 26, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16

Feats: Additional Traits, Expanded Arcana, Greater Spell Focus (conjuration), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (conjuration)

Traits: ease of faith, eyes and ears of the city, magical lineage, student of philosophy

Skills: Bluff +11 (+21 to lie), Diplomacy +14 (+24 to convince), Disable Device +26, Escape Artist +18, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +23 (+27 spells), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +18, Perception +23 (+28 to locate traps), Spellcraft +14 (+18 spells), Stealth +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception

Languages: Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Elven, Kelish, Osiriani, Osiriani, Ancient, Thassilonian, Varisian

Special Qualities: arcane bolt, elf blood, mutated bloodlines (sage), seeker lore, trapfinding +5

Combat Gear: potion of air bubble (2), potion of touch of the sea (2), +2 mithral buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +4, ioun stone (cracked pale green saves), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ring of protection +1, robe of arcane heritage, vest of escape, wayfinder, masterwork tool (diplomacy), masterwork tool (perception), sorcerer's kit, spell component pouch (3), thieves' tools, masterwork, wand of infernal healing, potion of remove blindness, potion of gaseous form

Silver Crusade

Let me all present you to my favorite sniper babe and queen of the alchemical items, Kallen Telos. While you said no crafting, this character can easily craft about all of her alchemical gear, so she's pretty self reliant in that respect. She's also damn handy with a bow, but not incredibly so. A few things to note: Her familiar is always holding a charge for one of her spells (noted during each challenge set to the verbal cue to activate of "Showtime", and the Poisoner's Gloves from her gear loadout are on the Scorpion Tumor Familiar which are both easily loaded down with two extracts of her choice, giving her easy access to three extracts at any time (possibly 4 if she uses her Admixture Vial to mix two) and there's basically no reason for her not to throw on Echolocation at the start of any operation, since it last so freaking long, so she's got blindsight 40 at her disposal.

Encounter #1
Kallen has enough stealth (+21) to easily sneak around, able to single out members of the Cave Trolls either one by one or in a group. Popping off her Mutagen before hand gives her +4 Dex and +2 Natural armor, pumping her AC to 28 and out of the range of both the Hellhounds and Cave Trolls, as well as the Fire Giant's Rock throw, meaning you're basically able to rain hell down without fear of reprisal. You could easily buff more for this (Bull's Strength, Resist Energy [Fire], etc), but at this point you're basically an angel who lacks fear from the ground bound mortals. After that point you can come down to earth and find the captives, although not a great chance to break the succubus's bluff. Sadly you're not in a great position to resist the succubus's dominate, but considering they have to grapple you to land the Suggestion, you do have Freedom of Movement to get away. Once you're out of their grip, Raining Arrows Alch Weapon'd with Holy Water will make short work of the foe, especially your frost bombs.

Encounter #2
Pitch black is no problem for a Tiefling, although extracts could solve this problem just as easily. Mutagen is pre gamed to give the same +4 Dex, so we're working at 28 AC again, and if we know what we're getting into, Hybriding some Holy Water into other Alch items would be choice (It's a necropolis, we're expecting holy water vulnerable enemies). A perception of +21 should be good for finding the way through the maze, and a +19 on disable device should handle any issues with traps and such. Zombies are a bit of an issue due to the lack of slashing arrows, seeing as Kallen can only engage them from 60 ft away. Tangleshots would work well enough to keep them posted to their spot for the basic zombies, while Alch Weaponing a Tangleburn Bag would be enough for the Ogre Zombies. The Mohrg itself is more difficult, since its reflex save is quite brutal. Pregame with Bull's Strength, Alter Self (+2 more Strength), setting your scorpion to load you down with Targeted Bomb Admixture upon your first turn, and Invisibility as well as passing off any unused buffs to party members. Doing this at least makes sure you're acting first and landing one good Alpha Strike. This alpha strike will be True Strike powered Explosive Missile Conductive Bomb with a Raining Arrow with a Hybridization Funnel'd Tangleburn Bag+Holy Water. Putting up 1d8+11 (Arrow Base Damage) +10d6+26 Fire Dmg(Explosive Missle and Conductive bomb) +2d4 (Raining Arrow) +2d4+2d6+6 (Holy Water+Tangleburn Bag) is going to light up anyone, even with the fire resistance. Best thing about this is that aside from breaking Invisibility, you could do it all next round (I'd suggest something other than a T.Burn bag with the Holy Water this time) against an entangled opponent. That's about 80 damage for a debuffing shot at the cost of some consumables and 3 bombs, which is novaing, but this is a nova situation. Once the demon comes out, he's primed for a Holy+T.Burn combo of his own (thank god they only resist fire instead of are immune), meaning you can now burn bombs on him to do the Grease Bomb and Tangle him to the ground. Sure he can teleport, but that's a burned standard action to get out of your trap, and he's still entangled. Kallen might fall to a will save here, but if she can keep out of range for those, she can clean this up herself or with some decent support.

Encounter #3
Again starting Muted up for the +4 total AC bonus and +2 attack bonus, the Erinyes is the only real issue here, since you have a decent chance of outstealthing her. Ammo of choice for this target is Raining arrows complimented by Alch Weapon'd Tanglefoot Bags (possibly hybrid with Holy Water for additional pain). At flat footed we have a decent enough chance of hitting the target, entangling them making the scenario far easier. Staying out of Rope Range shouldn't be hard, but her attacks have a decent chance of hitting us, so damage will be incurred since she has a decent ranged attack routine. Invis won't help here, but she can't hammer our weak will save that much, so it's simply a matter of keeping her entangled while we pelt her with arrows. Post encounter we heal up, having only burned consumables (CLW extracts and Troll Styptic), so we're no worse off to face big daddy evil. Invisibility ensures we'll get a surprise round, and our initiative is sexy enough to assure we'll be starting the party as well, especially by downing Anticipate Peril to almost assure it. Weak touch is our defense of choice here. Since unless we do something dumb we'll be hitting first, we can fire off a Tangleshot Conductive Explosive Missile, maybe have our familiar dose us up with Targeted Admixture to increase our damage. Landing again 10d6+26 in the surprise round and again in the first round of combat should on average take this guy down, since at 11 touch AC we can't really miss, and avoiding the skeletons all together.

Encounter #4
Alchs have the best casting mechanic for this, since Kallen can just sip her drink and boom, magical. Blend is our weapon of choice to avoid detection here, since that'll push our stealth to about 25, so by that point if we're both taking then Kallen is in the clear. The hidden help is more of an issue, since at that point we're basically even. With a +23 diplomacy, I can probably get some info out of the party guest about things, or at least give me reason to abscond without causing too much of a stir. The trap on the door wouldn't be too hard to spot, although disabling it might be a bit more difficult. If it was a mechanical trap, Kallen could use her Rusting Powder for a bonus (which would be logical, since it's connected to a door), which would give her a better than 50/50 shot at disabling it. Or if I'm doing this along, Gaseous Form combined with invisibility gets me inside and doesn't alert the golem since he has no chance of seeing me. Thanks to Blindsight 40 unless the room is huge and the golem is at the very edge, I should know about them. While she couldn't just take 10 to find the compartment, the duration of both spells is enough where I'd have ample time to search. Slipping the evidence into my Haversack, I'd gas out just the same way I came in, wait for duration to expire, and come out of the little girl's room without a scratch.

Encounter #5
I'm pretty sure Endure Elements will let us avoid the effects of Altitude Sickness, so that's not too hard. The smoke's an issue, as is his blindsense...stupid blindsense...but thankfully cold vulnerability works for us. We're probably not making the fear aura save, but a dragon is used to people terrified of them, so it's no big deal to chill and wait for it to wear off. Kallen has enough Diplo to keep the conversation focused until she's no longer shaken, and then once she's ready she can start the party right with a Tangleshot Explosive Missile Conductive Frost Bomb with a side of Acid and supplimented with a "Showtime'd" Targeted Bomb Admixture. Again we're landing 10d6+26, but this time it's doubled thanks to that cold weakness, so if big bad dragon man hasn't prepared for it, that's about 102 damage on average. Wining initiative gives us the other 102 damage to finish him off in time for dinner. I suppose smoke is still a factor, but at worse it's only cover, so it's two shots each with a 20% miss chance.

I'd like to know how I might have messed things up, since I do really like Kallen.

Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:
For Bernie Encounter 3 requires you to approach with no cover or concealment. The Erinyes will see you coming and alert Godric.

You didn't specify a complete lack of cover. Even barren islands usually have valleys, rocks to hide behind, etc. Hell, he could just keep the Monastery between him and her unless she's just sitting there straight up from it (which doesn't make a lot of sense and isn't 'patrolling the island'), since he spots her well before she spots him on average.

If there's really literally no cover, he's in somewhat more trouble but can simply archery duel the Erinyes first, killing her in two rounds at most, then proceed to go invisible, wait at least 15 minutes (and Stealth, obviously), and proceed with the plan, since the Cleric can't invisibility purge the whole island, and, again, once combat starts will die before he can do anything.

andreww wrote:
Invisibility Purge may gives you issues.

Which is why he murders the Cleric before he gets an action off.

andreww wrote:
For encounter 2 Blasphemy has a 25% chance of Paralyzing you for 1d10 minutes and auto paralyses for 1 round at minimum. He has many zombies who will crawl through the area hunting for you.

Blasphemy actually has less chance than that since he's Heroism'd up. 10% or so (+18 Will Save). And the Mohrg only has time for one spell at most (though I suppose Blasphemy makes time for another)...which I already note screws Bernie because of the Glabrezu.

andreww wrote:
For encounter 1 six opponents with scent moving through the area hunting for you may force you to move quite a bit more than you are accounting for.

They need to get immediately adjacent for scent to kick in as an actual finding method and he's 90 feet away meaning it'll take them a couple of turns to get into the right vicinity. Either the the Giant's dead by the end of Bernie's turn on round 2 (after which them finding him couldn't possibly matter less), or he's already moving to avoid the giant.

andreww wrote:
On equipment you seem to be well over WBL with over 80k of gear.

Damn, don't know how I screwed that up. Drop his belt and headband to +2 each. That'll leave him another 4k or so for consumables, and won't notably change much of anything, since a -1 on most stuff doesn't (it ups his odds of failing Blasphemy to a whole 15% and so on). Heck, assuming he cast Prayer before each battle (which I wasn't) the odds may come out better for him.

andreww wrote:
Also on Bernie for encounter 4 your dispel magic wont be enough for the trap given your caster level of 10.

Uh, like Wondrous Items (which is the Feat you need to make one) aren't traps usually the minimum caster level needed to cast the spell? I'm looking at the trap description and not seeing any evidence one way or the other, but that's the only thing that makes sense to me, since they don't list caster level anywhere. If so, that'd be CL 9 or 10 in this case and very doable at his CL 10. Also, if you're willing to allow Campaign Traits, he could've taken Trapfinder and disabled it easily that way...but that seemed cheesy.

andreww wrote:
For the golem once it gets into melee with you you don't seem to have any way out. Your attacks then provoke so if it chooses to grapple or sunder you could be in trouble. Whether golems, being mindless, have the ability to do so may be an open question but that could be a real problem for you.

Melee with the golem is indeed a bad idea, which is why going with the other alternative I mention is probably a good one. That said, it gets one AoO, and is dealing with a 50% miss chance...so damage isn't any scarier than I list. Sundering seems unreasonable given it's level of intellect combined with the invisibility, since it almost certainly doesn't even know there's a weapon to sunder. Grapple is more possible and would lose him the fight right there, though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sindalla wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
I like how your human rogue solves the maze by stumbling through the dark and still manages to function when they can't see anything. ;)
You're right, add a torch to my equipment... Sadly enough, I can still Hide in Plain Sight with one out.

*Slaps idiot Human rogue* Potion of darkvision! Always keep one handy!. Ye think ye're going to sneak around with a lit torch!


Deadmanwalking wrote:
You didn't specify a complete lack of cover. Even barren islands usually have valleys, rocks to hide behind, etc. Hell, he could just keep the Monastery between him and her unless she's just sitting there straight up from it (which doesn't make a lot of sense and isn't 'patrolling the island'), since he spots her well before she spots him on average.

The island is in the middle of the sea, approaching it is an issue. Of course you have invisibility so can just cast that when you start getting close. By the time you enter encounter range you wont be visible and her true seeing only has a range of 120'. However what you do lack is a means of flight so you either need some help here from a group or to take a boat which is a bit less sneaky...:)

andreww wrote:
Blasphemy actually has less chance than that since he's Heroism'd up. 10% or so (+18 Will Save). And the Mohrg only has time for one spell at most (though I suppose Blasphemy makes time for another)...which I already note screws Bernie because of the Glabrezu.

Heroism is indeed a most awesome buff. If it doesnt go for the Glabrezu and instead summons 1d3 Hezrou you could be in trouble if you are caught in a stench aura. I would strongly consider picking up delay poison given its duration.

Quote:
Melee with the golem is indeed a bad idea, which is why going with the other alternative I mention is probably a good one. That said, it gets one AoO, and is dealing with a 50% miss chance...so damage isn't any scarier than I list. Sundering seems unreasonable given it's level of intellect combined with the invisibility, since it almost certainly doesn't even know there's a weapon to sunder. Grapple is more possible and would lose him the fight right there, though.

Actually I completely forgot that you could easily be invisible so it doesnt get an opportunity attack, you cannot take them against a target with total concealment.

Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:
The island is in the middle of the sea, approaching it is an issue. Of course you have invisibility so can just cast that when you start getting close. By the time you enter encounter range you wont be visible and her true seeing only has a range of 120'. However what you do lack is a means of flight so you either need some help here from a group or to take a boat which is a bit less sneaky...:)

A Potion of Fly is a possibility, given the 4k freed up by dropping the belt and headband to +2.

andreww wrote:
Heroism is indeed a most awesome buff. If it doesnt go for the Glabrezu and instead summons 1d3 Hezrou you could be in trouble if you are caught in a stench aura. I would strongly consider picking up delay poison given its duration.

Delay Poison would be nice, true. His 2nd level spells are a bit spoken for, I guess he could scrap Nondetection for it via Favored Class Bonus...

andreww wrote:
Actually I completely forgot that you could easily be invisible so it doesnt get an opportunity attack, you cannot take them against a target with total concealment.

Yeah, its normal attacks remain a problem, though.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
A Potion of Fly is a possibility, given the 4k freed up by dropping the belt and headband to +2.

The only real problem with this is the 5 minute duration.

Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
A Potion of Fly is a possibility, given the 4k freed up by dropping the belt and headband to +2.
The only real problem with this is the 5 minute duration.

He only needs it for about that long. He sails his boat out to, say, 4 minutes from the place (so, even moving slowly 2400 feet or something like that, double that at 4800 if double-moving...so half a mile to a mile from the island), goes invisible, drinks the potion, and stays 130 feet away from the Erinyes till he lands. This does assume the Cleric has a boat he can go back on, and that he can afford to discard a rowboat, but it's doable.


OK, let us see how Casimir does. I posted his stats above but you will also find them at the end of this post. I am going to look at how he performs on his own and as part of a group. It is worth noting that he is designed as a battlefield controller and would therefore normally expect to be more useful in a group.

Encounter 1:

Big stupid giant, cave trolls, hell hounds and a succubus. He will arrive flying and turn invisible when he is still some distance away. Being in the air he is well out of scent range and with an effective stealth of 32 he wont be spotted. He ID's the opposition easily enough and has a modest chance of spotting the succubus disguise (23 versus 29). If he directs a detect magic into the area he is going to spot her change shape making him immediately more suspicious. He will also notice the succubus dominate on the giant. He will Paragon Surge for Suppress Charms and Compulsions and cast it on the giant freeing it from the Dominate and prevent any further attempts. It could choose to try and save so it may take a cast or two but none of the enemies have the spellcraft to work out what is happening.

This will have the expected effect of causing the giant to try and kill the demon, probably with a surprise round. Its first attack hits on a 2 for 26 damage. He first round of attacks hit on a 2/7/12 for an average of around another 55 damage leaving her on 3hp. Casimir will help out if needed with finishing her off. He will then leave the spell to run out and float off for a bit. Once Suppress runs out he recasts greater invis and returns hitting the giant with persistent suggestion DC 21. Wit a +9 will save and rolling twice it has a 20% chance to resist. If it does so he tries again next round. He suggests that the trolls are planning to kill him in the night and eat him and he should get them before they get him. He leaves them to fight each other to near death then kills the trolls with fireball and the giant and hell hounds with snowball. None of them have any realistic way to deal with a flying greater invisible spellcaster.

If he is there as part of a group then he still scouts out the area. He probably hands out resist energy fire to everyone, causes a distraction with silent image to cover their entrance and traps the giant in a persistent aqueous orb while the group deals with the other threats. At DC23 rolling twice the giant has a 1% chance of avoiding capture in the orb. Once caught he has a 1 in 400 chance of escaping. the trolls and hellhounds have a 5% chance of resisting Fear.

Encounter 2:

Big scary necropolis filled with undead is definitely not somewhere you want to be anywhere near. The first surge gets him rope trick and darkvision and he casts both. The second gets arcane eye which he direct from his cubby hole. Once he finds the Mohrg it will spot the sensor alerting it to something being up. It cant do much about it though. Forewarned about what he is facing (+18 or 24 if he surges for skill focus versus DC22) he knows it has powerful SLA's. He has also seen all of them zombies. He surges again for extend spell and casts extended Invisibility and Elemental Body I. He uses these to scout through the walls of the necropolis hunting the mohrg. When he locates it he launches an ambush with DC20 command undead. It only has a 35% chance of success but any time it fails he simply retreats into the walls, floor or ceiling to avoid reprisals and recasts invisibility. It probably takes him a few goes but it will fail its save. It is now friendly but still extremely dangerous. He isn't going to try and compel it using his terrible charisma but he can now make requests of it. Starting DC is 12, +5 per request with up to another +10 depending on the risks involved. With +24 diplomacy he easily convinces it to leave the necropolis with him. Maybe he takes it on his next adventure and leads it into an ambush for his party or the nearest bunch of paladins.

If working with a group then he is handing out darkvision to anyone who cannot see underground, advising the cleric on spell reparation (Remove Paralysis, Magic Circle, Dispel Evil please), clearing swathes of zombies with Fireball and if forced into a direct fight with it then persistent glitterdust has a 70% success rate.

Encounter 3:

Overland Flight gets him to the island and Invisibility while a mile out or so allows him to evade the erinyes. He can identify it on a 3 and easily evades it either by just flying around it or dimension dooring past it. He finds the monastery and slips inside. Godrics perception of 20 against effective 32 stealth means advantage us. Seeing the situation we retreat out of ear shot and greater invisibility. Returning we nail Godric with Persistent Aqueous Orb. With a reflex of +7 versus DC23 he has a 6% chance of saving. If he fails then his chance to escape goes down to 2% as he has -4 dex. He cannot cast spells as he will start to drown. He takes 20d6 non lethal damage over the course of the spell. Furthermore each round Casimir takes control of one of his giants and has them kill him while he is trapped. As mindless undead they get no save. He then gets to take them on adventures with him.

If he was art of a group then Casimir is probably the providing the transportation. That might be teleportation to the island once they can see it or Communal Phantom Steed to ride there. If the erinyes enters the equation then persistent glitterdust is the standard option for annoying outsiders and with +7 will and a DC of 22 she is looking at only a 9% chance of shaking it off.

Encounter 4:

Social situations and burglary are an area in which he excels. He bluffs his way past the guards (Sense Motive 15 versus 21 bluff, 27 with a surged skill focus). He auto spots and disables the trap on the door taking 10 but he has to roll for the lock. A surged knock will however get him through. The golem will be alerted but he is very likely to beat its initiative (+7 versus -1). A persistent create pit drops it 99% of the time and he can kill it over the next 10 rounds with SR: No snowballs as it tries and fails to climb out as golems get no skill ranks. Alternatively he can simply turn into a small earth elemental, drop invisibility and stealth through the walls around the chambers until he finds what he needs.

If he brings any party members for this encounter then it is purely to serve as a distraction for the guards allowing him to slip away.

Encounter 5:

Flight, surged teleport and endure elements allow him to approach the dragon. DC28 diplomacy moves it from unfriendly to friendly. He starts out at +24 and a surged skill focus makes it +30. If he is forced into direct combat then he will be bringing a bunch of friends. He hands out resist energy like it was going out of fashion. Persistent Aqueous Orb actually catches it 80% of the time. Once entangled its chance of escape each round is 9% but then it risks being trapped again. While it struggles to escape the rest of the group are free to launch missile weapons and spells at it. It cannot casts spells and will be held out of melee reach. It could use its breath but that only has a range of 40'. With a 200' range in aqueous orb Casimir could conceivable solo the dragon but it would take quite some considerable period of time. He would also need to buy something like a Goz mask.

Not too bad for a character which is specifically designed to work in a team. He makes modest use of paragon surge but even without it he could easily be contributing to each encounter. He would take a few more risks in number two scouting as an earth elemental. Number one would have him go all offensive from the start, probably a suggestion that the succubus take the giant out (about a 75% chance of success). Three and four largely go the same way.

Casimir:
Male Half-Elf (Varisian) Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) 10
N Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +23

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Defense
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 72 (10d6+30)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +13; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep

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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)

Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +22):

5th (4/day)—baleful polymorph (DC 23), hold monster (DC 23), overland flight
4th (7/day)—charm monster (DC 22), dimension door, elemental body i, emergency force sphere, fear (DC 22), greater invisibility
3rd (8/day)—aqueous orb (DC 23), dispel magic, fireball (DC 21), haste, paragon surge, stinking cloud (DC 23), suggestion (DC 21)
2nd (8/day)—command undead (DC 20), create pit (DC 22), glitterdust (DC 22), invisibility, mirror image, pilfering hand, resist energy
1st (8/day)—disguise self, grease (DC 21), identify, liberating command, mage armor, protection from evil, silent image (DC 19), snowball (DC 21)
0 (at will)—acid splash, arcane mark, daze (DC 18), detect magic, detect poison, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation (DC 18)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 26, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16

Feats: Additional Traits, Expanded Arcana, Greater Spell Focus (conjuration), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (conjuration)

Traits: ease of faith, eyes and ears of the city, magical lineage (glitterdust), student of philosophy

Skills: Bluff +11 (+21 to deceive), Diplomacy +14 (+24 to convince), Disable Device +26, Escape Artist +18, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +23 (+27 spells), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +18, Perception +23 (+28 to locate traps), Spellcraft +14 (+18 spells), Stealth +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception

Languages: Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Elven, Giant, Osiriani, Osiriani, Ancient, Thassilonian, Varisian

Special Quaities: arcane bolt, elf blood, mutated bloodlines (sage), seeker lore, trapfinding +5

Gear: potion of air bubble (3), potion of touch of the sea (3), potion of remove blindness, wand of infernal healing, +2 mithral buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +4, ioun stone (pale green, saves), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ring of protection +1, robe of arcane heritage, vest of escape, wayfinder, masterwork tool(perception), masterwork tool(diplomacy), sorcerer's kit, spell component pouch (2), spell component pouch, thieves' tools, masterwork, 150 gp


OK, I wanted to give these comparisons a go looking at how a martial character performs. I pulled this particular rogue build out of the abortive Bard versus Rogue thread. It was posted by Leonardo and I wanted to see how it compares. Bear in mind that it wasn't entirely complete and doesn't really have fully fleshed out gear. I would expect quite a lot of consumables being used.

Would anyone care to test him against the various encounters? I would do it myself but suspect I might be accused of bias.

Spoiler:
Human Rogue 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +18

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Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 17, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +6 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 93 (10d8+40)
Fort +8, Ref +16 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Ranged +2 composite longbow +18/+18/+18/+13 (1d8+5/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 27

Feats Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Toughness, Weapon Focus (longbow)

Traits indomitable faith, reactionary

Skills Acrobatics +20 (+32 jump), Bluff +12, Disable Device +27, Escape Artist +20, Perception +18 (+23 to locate traps), Sleight of Hand +20, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +12

Languages Common

SQ rogue talents (bleeding attack, bonus feat, combat trick, sniper's eye, weapon training), trapfinding +5

Combat Gear sniper goggles; Other Gear masterwork leather armor, +2 composite longbow, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of speed, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +1, thieves' tools, masterwork, 140 gp


OK, lets have a quick review of how our alchemist has done.

Quote:
Kallen has enough stealth (+21) to easily sneak around, able to single out members of the Cave Trolls either one by one or in a group. Popping off her Mutagen before hand gives her +4 Dex and +2 Natural armor, pumping her AC to 28 and out of the range of both the Hellhounds and Cave Trolls, as well as the Fire Giant's Rock throw, meaning you're basically able to rain hell down without fear of reprisal. You could easily buff more for this (Bull's Strength, Resist Energy [Fire], etc), but at this point you're basically an angel who lacks fear from the ground bound mortals. After that point you can come down to earth and find the captives, although not a great chance to break the succubus's bluff. Sadly you're not in a great position to resist the succubus's dominate, but considering they have to grapple you to land the Suggestion, you do have Freedom of Movement to get away. Once you're out of their grip, Raining Arrows Alch Weapon'd with Holy Water will make short work of the foe, especially your frost bombs.

While +21 stealth probably beats everything in the encounter what it doesn't beat is scent and there are 6 different creatures here all of which possess it. If you get caught you are in trouble as you cannot escape melee easily without taking opportunity attacks. If the giant grapples you then you are in real difficulties and with a CMD of 23 that is likely, its CMB is 22. The succubus has suggestion at will, its embrace just also does it. +6 will is a very dangerous place to be. I recommend greater invis and/or protection from evil if you have them.

For the Mohrg the big issue really is getting caught in the Blasphemy range. Cater level 18 blasphemy on a CR12 monster is just ridiculously brutal and could easily see entire parties paralysed for ages.


Ya know, I was going to submit a character but, I came to a realization as I was building him.

The trouble with what I was building is that ti was a solo character being built for a solo series of challenges. Yet, if I built this character to complement a group of 10th level characters rather than, say, solo than I built it completely differently.

Ultimately I feel like it's simply not useful despite how well the scenarios are made. Who cares what one character can do by themselves? I think it's more useful to check the context of the classes in what thye can offer to a balanced group. CAn they offer more in the group than whom they replace? If so, how? I think that's a bit more useful.

So, here's what I propose. I've got a balanced group I can make level 10 versions of. I can take them, crush each scenario (and I do mean crush, Teamwork is overpowered) so from there, each class or character can simply replace one of the group and then redo the scenarios again, seeing how they change or morph, how much harder is it for the group when you replace the archaeologist with an alchemist? Or the evangelist cleric with an inquisitor? How does that sound?

Silver Crusade

andreww wrote:

OK, lets have a quick review of how our alchemist has done.

While +21 stealth probably beats everything in the encounter what it doesn't beat is scent and there are 6 different creatures here all of which possess it. If you get caught you are in trouble as you cannot escape melee easily without taking opportunity attacks. If the giant grapples you then you are in real difficulties and with a CMD of 23 that is likely, its CMB is 22. The succubus has suggestion at will, its embrace just also does it. +6 will is a very dangerous place to be. I recommend greater invis and/or protection from evil if you have them.

Scent only works at 30/60 feet, which is outside of my attack radius. Worst case scenario, I can whip up a Deodorizing Agent, another handy alchemical item on the cheap. I will admit that the will save is a huge glass jaw, but spending a little more to pick up scrolls to add Detect Thoughts to snipe out the Succubus and Greater Invis would solve these problems. Gaseous Form can work as a getaway, although sadly the class has no inherent access to Protection from Evil (I'm crushed too.) But duration for freedom of movement is enough that she could throw it on ahead of time and be grapple free, just needing to stay out of suggestion range.


Hmmmm I wonder how an Unbreakable Fighter would do. If I had Herogen I'd roll one up and see.

Liberty's Edge

TarkXT wrote:

Ya know, I was going to submit a character but, I came to a realization as I was building him.

The trouble with what I was building is that ti was a solo character being built for a solo series of challenges. Yet, if I built this character to complement a group of 10th level characters rather than, say, solo than I built it completely differently.

Ultimately I feel like it's simply not useful despite how well the scenarios are made. Who cares what one character can do by themselves? I think it's more useful to check the context of the classes in what thye can offer to a balanced group. CAn they offer more in the group than whom they replace? If so, how? I think that's a bit more useful.

So, here's what I propose. I've got a balanced group I can make level 10 versions of. I can take them, crush each scenario (and I do mean crush, Teamwork is overpowered) so from there, each class or character can simply replace one of the group and then redo the scenarios again, seeing how they change or morph, how much harder is it for the group when you replace the archaeologist with an alchemist? Or the evangelist cleric with an inquisitor? How does that sound?

Sounds good to me. Bernie would probably have Freedom of Movement rather than Divine Power in a party with access to Haste, and one or two other spells might change but his other stats would remain identical. For the record.

Silver Crusade

andreww wrote:
For the Mohrg the big issue really is getting caught in the Blasphemy range. Cater level 18 blasphemy on a CR12 monster is just ridiculously brutal and could easily see entire parties paralyzed for ages.

The morhg is stupid powerful (who designed that thing?) Although with my Alpha Strike, Kallen takes off almost half of its HP. With Kallen's initiative, she's got a solid chance to start, and laying out another 80 damage is leaving that beast with only 10 or so HP. Since tactics state that the D Mohrg is going to summon up big ugly as its first action, that gives Kallen one last round to finish off the bastard before that Blasphemy even hits the field. Actually, with the one round casting time of summon spells, if Kallen gets surprise round (not hard), goes first, Mohrg uses their action to summon, Kallen gets a third attack on the monster and toast it before it finishes casting the SLA, so no Glabby for Kallen to toast as well.


Could probably solo it with a 12th level monk. Before 12th it's pretty difficult for a monk without a party.


I would run the rogue but I am not confident running both sides at once, someone would have to gm for me


TarkXT wrote:
So, here's what I propose. I've got a balanced group I can make level 10 versions of. I can take them, crush each scenario (and I do mean crush, Teamwork is overpowered) so from there, each class or character can simply replace one of the group and then redo the scenarios again, seeing how they change or morph, how much harder is it for the group when you replace the archaeologist with an alchemist? Or the evangelist cleric with an inquisitor? How does that sound?

Absolutely, go for it. I have no doubt that a competent group will be able to handle all of these fairly easily, they are CR12 using mostly standard monsters. They are the sort of encounters that might challenge a largely CRB group with fairly minimal optimisation. If you come at each of them fresh I expect you will steamroller them, especially with the large number of new options printed over the last few years. Party composition will also make a major difference. I would expect Rogue/Monk/Fighter/Ranger will have more trouble (especially with 2, 3 and 4) than Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Paladin.

So, to jazz things up a little bit lets stream them into more of a themed adventure session. Our set up is this:

Quote:

Encounter 1

The party has received word that some terrible event is about to befall the kingdom in which they make their home. Warnings are vague but dire as most prophecies are and direct them to the empty ruins of an ancient necropolis on the edge of the kingdom. Travelling there they find signs of recent passage and encounter the Succubus, Giant and his raiding party. He is holed in in the ruins, lots of cover and few easy sight lines for archer types. His presence is entirely coincidental. To make things slightly more difficult the Succubus has charmed a young blue dragon which made its lair in the ruins. She plans to build her own little empire here.

Quote:

Encounter 2

Assuming the party defeats the Giant their battle has disturbed the undead below. Unlimited numbers of CR1-2 zombies begin pouring out of the underground tunnels. Think of it like a walking dead city scene. Below the Mohrg makes its lair in a large chamber which has been converted to a temple to Asmodeus by Godric who created the monstrosity. He has unhallowed the altar and attached deeper darkness to it. Similarly the whole underground tunnel complex is covered by a forbiddance spell. The Mohrg is an Infernal creature rather than Demonic and possesses the See in Darkness ability. There is no obvious link between Godric and the area although he has left a number of ritual objects behind as part of the Unhallow. These could be used to make attempts to scry on him or learn information about him with spells like Legend Lore or Contact Other Plane.

Quote:

Encounter 3

Assuming the group can make the link and find Godric he gets a bit of a boost. We advance him to level 13 and give him full PC wealth making him CR13. We get rid of the Bearded Devils and replace them with a further two erinyes. Two remain on guard circling above the monastery while the third remains with him at all times. He has Unhallowed the monastery with freedom of movement for servants of Asmodeus and also applied Forbiddance. The monastery is several hundred miles away from the ruins and about four miles out to sea. Godric is allied to the Queen but has his own agenda which he is pursuing at the monastery.

Godric:
Human Cleric (Separatist) of Asmodeus 13
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +36

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Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 15, flat-footed 29 (+9 armor, +4 shield, +1 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 insight)
hp 120 (13d8+52)
Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +23

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee masterwork morningstar +11/+6 (1d8+1)
Special Attacks channel negative energy 1/day (DC 14, 7d6)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th; concentration +22)
13 rounds/day—master's illusion (13 rounds/day, DC 25)
12/day—copycat (13 rounds), dazing touch
11 rounds/day—charming smile (11 rounds/day, DC 24)

Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 13th; concentration +22):

7th—persistent greater command (DC 24), quickened suggestion [D] (DC 22), summon monster vii
6th—antilife shell, persistent confusion [D] (DC 23), summon monster vi (2)
5th—greater command (DC 24), plane shift (DC 25), persistent suggestion [D] (DC 22), quickened sanctuary (DC 20), summon monster v (2)
4th—air walk, blessing of fervor (DC 23), confusion [D] (DC 23), dimensional anchor, freedom of movement, order's wrath (DC 23), summon monster iv
3rd—dispel magic, magic vestment (2), persistent murderous command (DC 20), persistent sanctuary (DC 20), suggestion [D] (DC 22), wind wall
2nd—grace (2), hold person (2, DC 21), invisibility [D], resist energy, surmount affliction
1st—command (DC 20), disguise self [D], murderous command (2, DC 20), obscuring mist, sanctuary (DC 20), shield of faith (2)
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, light
[D] Domain spell; Domains Charm, Trickery

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 28, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +10; CMD 25

Feats: Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Sacred Summons, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Perception), Spell Focus (conjuration), Superior Summoning

Traits: reactionary, underbridge dweller (magnimar)

Skills: Diplomacy +20, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +17, Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +36, Sense Motive +25, Spellcraft +5

Languages: Common, Infernal

Special Qualities: aura, domains (trickery), forbidden rites (charm), variant channeling (rulership variant channeling)

Gear: extend metamagic rod (lesser), jingasa of the fortunate soldier, oil of daylight, potion of barkskin +5, potion of blur (2), potion of cat's grace (2), potion of darkvision (2), potion of fly, potion of heroism, potion of invisibility, potion of remove blindness/deafness, scroll of death ward, delay poison, heal, protection from energy, scroll of fickle winds, invisibility purge, repulsion, word of recall, mithral breastplate, mithral buckler, masterwork morningstar, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of mighty constitution +4, cloak of resistance +5, eyes of the eagle, feather step slippers, handy haversack, headband of inspired wisdom +6, ioun stone (dusty rose prism), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ring of protection +2, iron holy symbol (Asmodeus), iron holy symbol (Asmoeus), spell component pouch (x3), 164 gp

Quote:

Encounter 4:

Godric has a number of letters on him which tie him potentially to the queen leading the group to her party which is being held at the end of day 1. If the group take too long to get to this point then they will find it much more difficult to sneak into the palace. The Palace is situated about a hundred miles from the monastery.

To make things more difficult her chambers are permanently warded with alarm and private sanctum. There is no door as she accesses them via a permanent phase door. The secret chamber is protected by a cube of permanent walls of force and the chamber has a permanent invisibility purge effect in place. The Golem is backed up by four wraiths bound to guard her private chambers and subject to regular Command Undead spells.

The hidden chamber contains correspondence linking the Queen to the dragon Incendius. It makes clear she has entered an alliance with the dragon to destroy the holdings of her enemies. It is due to start its attacks at the end of day 1 and will burn down a settlement each day before it is stopped. The correspondence does not say where his lair is or identify which order the towns will be destroyed in but it does identify the six primary targets.

Quote:

Encounter 5:

Incendius makes his lair about 50 miles to the north of the capitol inside an active volcano. The inner chambers are filled with poisonous gas (to which he is immune). Treat is as a permanent stinking cloud throughout the area, DC22, as well as limiting vision. His starting attitude is hostile (he has been paid well by the Queen) and his lair is also home to four huge fire elementals. We also upgrade Incenndius to a CR15 Old Magma Dragon with the following spells known:

Level 5: Teleport, Fickle Winds
Level 4: Greater Invisibility, Animate Dead, Black Tentacles
Level 3: Haste, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Battering Blast
Level 2: Glitterdust, Resist Energy, Command Undead, Mirror Image, Invisibility
Level 1: Mage Armour, Shield, Protection from Good, Grease, Silent Image
Level 0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Light, Spark, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Daze, Arcane Mark

His lair is a large cave at least 300' high giving him plenty of space to manoeuvre in the air. It contains pools and rivers of lava which he enjoys bullrushing people into either himself or with Battering Blast. He maintains Mage Armour all day and will always be invisible if he detects people entering his lair and, if he has time, will cast Shield, Haste, Resist Cold and Displacement.

When he made his lair here he slaughtered a tribe of a dozen fire giants and animated their bodies as Burning Skeletons. They now patrol his lair.

So, the challenge is to identify the plot between the Queen and Incendius, find the dragon and put a stop to him before he destroys too much of your homeland.

Silver Crusade

andreww wrote:

Absolutely, go for it. I have no doubt that a competent group will be able to handle all of these fairly easily, they are CR12 using mostly standard monsters. They are the sort of encounters that might challenge a largely CRB group with fairly minimal optimisation. If you come at each of them fresh I expect you will steamroller them, especially with the large number of new options printed over the last few years. Party composition will also make a major difference. I would expect Rogue/Monk/Fighter/Ranger will have more trouble (especially with 2, 3 and 4) than Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Paladin.

So, to jazz things up a little bit lets stream them into more of a themed adventure session. Our set up is this:

It honestly seems like you're just requiring a full caster for a lot of these situations, which isn't a problem, but it does seem like the main step up from the previous challenges.

In that vein though, I'd love to see this ran with a party of
Serena/Kallen/Casmir/Bernie since it seems like a solid and well rounded team.

Edit: Also Kallen did avoid a few dirty tricks, such as Touch Injection/Skinsend, which with any partner is enough to pulp any encounter that has skin, or Alchemical Allocation abuse (she could bail on the Bracers/Admixture Vial to pick up some potions to reuse), which are more things to consider, but at least the first one is pretty cheap, at least to the point where it'd be hard to validate letting it happen more than once.


N. Jolly wrote:
It honestly seems like you're just requiring a full caster for a lot of these situations, which isn't a problem, but it does seem like the main step up from the previous challenges.

The nature of adventures change as you get higher level. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a group of level 10 characters to have to consider means of travel and information gathering beyond the mundane. A full caster would be extremely useful but maybe a 3/4 caster or a UMD'er could manage the same thing.


Nice job with the sorceror! I think the only one you potentially lose is this one:

andreww wrote:
Encounter 2: When he locates it he launches an ambush with DC20 command undead. It only has a 35% chance of success but any time it fails he simply retreats into the walls, floor or ceiling to avoid reprisals and recasts invisibility.

Probably the most damning fact is that, because you do not have natural spell, you likely cannot cast spells whilst in earth elemental shape (depending on how lenient your DM is). Thus, you have to drop elemental shape to get your command undead off. From there you are in big trouble.

Assuming a lenient DM that allows you to cast in elemental shape, the mohrg still has a few powerful tricks:

1) The glabrezu has true seeing, and you have no tremorsense, so after the first ambush the mohrg can summon one and it can ready an action to power word:stun you as soon as you come out. You can't predict its appearance and wait out the duration because you cannot detect it when earth gliding. You can't survive the stun duration. You'll have to hope you successfully mindgame the summoning.

2) As the mohrg already knows what's up, once you start dropping command undeads it can cast unholy aura on itself to drop your chance of success to 15% and then ready action a blasphemy. Assuming you surge spell penetration, the creature still has 23 SR and resists half of your attempts, dropping your success rate to 7.5%. At this point your tactic isn't likely to work before you run out of spells.

3) It can also hide with a +27 bonus against your +22 perception to ambush you and potentially locate you when you move near it with a +22 perception bonus against your +32, which isn't great but is certainly possible given the number of times you'll have to repeat the trick. Remember you must spend a round in the open (invisible) before you can cast commmand undead and retreat, as you can not pop out, cast and then pop back in again in one round.

Not saying you're toast for certain, but your tactic may not work at all depending on the DM and even if it does, the mohrg has a bunch of tricks that, if they work, are certain death. You're basically relying on that first command undead to work (17% chance after SR) and those are not good odds. Once that failed i'd probably retreat and rethink.


Hmm, those are very good points. I would generally allow people to cast in elemental form, elementals can speak and they can shape their bodies to whichever form they prefer which would seem to allow hands. Certainly an elemental could pick up a weapon. He cannot Surge and have Elemental Body up at the same time as they are both Polymorph effects.

If he summoned the Glabrezu I would most definitely retreat until the summon duration ran out. If it is there when it pops out then it comes down to initiative, +7 versus 0 are not bad odds. I don't believe the you can ready outsider of combat although I know a lot of people disagree.

Good catch on the Unholy Aura, I hadn't spotted that. The Blasphemy is a problem although with +13 Will he has a better chance that most to save. That gives him a round of attacks from any nearby zombies and then he earth glides out of there.

He might possibly be better just hit and running through the walls with Magic Missiles hoping to bear SR. Note Seeker gives +4 to penetrate SR.


andreww wrote:

Hmm, those are very good points. I would generally allow people to cast in elemental form, elementals can speak and they can shape their bodies to whichever form they prefer which would seem to allow hands. Certainly an elemental could pick up a weapon. He cannot Surge and have Elemental Body up at the same time as they are both Polymorph effects.

If he summoned the Glabrezu I would most definitely retreat until the summon duration ran out. Good catch on the Unholy Aura, I hadn't spotted that. The Blasphemy is a problem although with +13 Will he has a better chance that most to save. That gives him a round of attacks from any nearby zombies and then he earth glides out of there.

He might possibly be better just hit and running through the walls with Magic Missiles hoping to bear SR. Note Seeker gives +4 to penetrate SR.

Does your sorc have eschew materials, or did one of your alternate abilities replace that? If not, you can't cast regardless of DM interpretation because you don't have access to spell components whilst polymorphed. If you do have it, not a problem I guess.

*EDIT*

I see seeker replaces it. You'll probably have to spend a feat on it to make this work. Probably improved initiative, which sucks to lose but you don't need for this specific encounter anyway (and you trivialise the others regardless).

I would've originally ruled elemental body as being spell-capable as well, but from a quick forum search I see it is highly contentious so I wouldn't assume it is the case.

With the Glabby, because you don't have tremorsense, the mohrg can summon it without your knowledge when you are off recasting invis. You'll have to predict when he is going to summon it and wait the duration out --- certainly possible, but you wouldn't want to make a mistake.

*double edit*

as an aside, There's a druid in my current game who uses elemental body (wildshape) in a similar fashion, with invis cast from the witch. It's brutal. I think it's the most powerful wildshape combo, honestly -- with some form of clairvoyance or tremorsense you're basically unstoppable.

Speaking of which, you could potentially use your arcane eye to gain vision whilst earth gliding, right? And the sensor is invisible so the mohrg actually *doesn't* have any forewarning. This makes your combo significantly more powerful. Actually, you could probably beat every encounter listed with this combo.


While the spell component pouch would merge you can simply take off a belt or somesuch and then put it back on. Takes some fiddling about but it is entirely possible to keep much of your available gear.


Actually thinking about it Emergency Force Sphere acts as his defence against the Glabrezu. In effect a wall of force it will break line of effect allowing him to avoid the Power Word Stun and the Blasphemy and then earth glide away.

He could also Paragon Surge for echolocation and the shift to elemental form afterwards. It lasts 10 minutes per level and gives blindsight 40.


andreww wrote:
While the spell component pouch would merge you can simply take off a belt or somesuch and then put it back on. Takes some fiddling about but it is entirely possible to keep much of your available gear.

That's true, assuming earth glide lets you take attended objects with you (a fair assumption, although a DM is probably going to be ruling against you in every possible circumstance to prevent earth glide abuse). Similarly, you may not be able to breathe whilst underground. The ability doesn't stipulate, but the spell that gives you earth glide mentions you cannot. If this is the cases you'll need some form of silent spell.

I think earth glide is just a horribly worded ability more generally. It is not worded in such a way to set any precedent for use, meaning it can either be one of the best abilities in the game or distinctly mediocre, depending on how draconian your DM is.

A bit off topic here:

Elemental body in general does not have enough explanatory text I think -- you kinda have to assume you're some kind of elemental-mortal hybrid for the ability restrictions to make sense, but the spell explicitly states you take the form. This can lead to janky situations like a fire elemental who needs to drink water to survive or an air elemental that can't move through the gratings of a prison bar, even though clearly these forms are capable of doing so. Too much DM fiat involved IMO.


You will get no arguments from me that Elemental Body needs much better explanation of how it works, especially as several classes gain long duration effects based on it (Druids, Flame Oracles).


andreww wrote:

Actually thinking about it Emergency Force Sphere acts as his defence against the Glabrezu. In effect a wall of force it will break line of effect allowing him to avoid the Power Word Stun and the Blasphemy and then earth glide away.

He could also Paragon Surge for echolocation and the shift to elemental form afterwards. It lasts 10 minutes per level and gives blindsight 40.

You don't need it anyway, arcane eye gives you vision so you can just wait out the glabby.

Looks like you'll probably win out in the end by pure attrition. You may run out of spells/day but there's nothing stopping you from coming back and repeating the process the next day. Poor mohrg doesn't really have any way of stopping you outside of one blasphemy and the glabby.

As long as the DM is lenient on elemental body (and I would probably interpret it the same way as you), you've convinced me :-). Why did they ever print paragon surge? Seriously?


andreww wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
So, here's what I propose. I've got a balanced group I can make level 10 versions of. I can take them, crush each scenario (and I do mean crush, Teamwork is overpowered) so from there, each class or character can simply replace one of the group and then redo the scenarios again, seeing how they change or morph, how much harder is it for the group when you replace the archaeologist with an alchemist? Or the evangelist cleric with an inquisitor? How does that sound?

Absolutely, go for it. I have no doubt that a competent group will be able to handle all of these fairly easily, they are CR12 using mostly standard monsters. They are the sort of encounters that might challenge a largely CRB group with fairly minimal optimisation. If you come at each of them fresh I expect you will steamroller them, especially with the large number of new options printed over the last few years. Party composition will also make a major difference. I would expect Rogue/Monk/Fighter/Ranger will have more trouble (especially with 2, 3 and 4) than Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Paladin.

So, to jazz things up a little bit lets stream them into more of a themed adventure session. Our set up is this:

Quote:

Encounter 1

The party has received word that some terrible event is about to befall the kingdom in which they make their home. Warnings are vague but dire as most prophecies are and direct them to the empty ruins of an ancient necropolis on the edge of the kingdom. Travelling there they find signs of recent passage and encounter the Succubus, Giant and his raiding party. He is holed in in the ruins, lots of cover and few easy sight lines for archer types. His presence is entirely coincidental. To make things slightly more difficult the Succubus has charmed a young blue dragon which made its lair in the ruins. She plans to build her own little empire here.

Quote:

Encounter 2

Assuming the party defeats the Giant their battle has disturbed the undead below.

...

Alrighty, I'll go ahead and bump up the group I had in mind up to 10th from 6th (Ranger, Arch. Bard, Evangelist Cleric, and Enhancement Wizard).

I'm pretty confident in their ability to beat this without much trouble. Which is kind of the point. The trick is to be able to fit into and contribute greatly to this group after replacing one or more of these guys with some allowances on changing said characters a touch (such as spell selection/preparation.


How is this. A sorcerer, starting with 20 charisma, 28 charisma with headband +6 by lvl 10. Add Spell focus necromancy as well as greater spell focus. This gives a Magic Jar DC of 26. Give him noble scion of war as well as improved init and reactionary combined with a dueling cestus. His initiative is now +19. Have him be an arcane bloodline sorcerer with a compsognatus familiar for a +23 initiative. Spell penetration and greater spell penetration round out his spells. Give him some dweomer's essence to give him +19 against spell resistance when he really needs it.
To round him out give him a persistent rod.

At this point his only stats that matter are +23 to initiative. Magic Jar DC 26 (roll twice take lower) and caster level to overcome spell resistance of +19.

Encounter one. Get within medium range of the whole tower. Find a place to stash your body, dig a whole under the effects of invisibility if you have to. Cast a persisted magic jar with dweomer's essence. Jump into the highest hit dice you can find. Kill as many bad guys in its body. If for some reason you get killed in that body just jump into the next one. Repeat until only one bad guy remains and then a coup de grace on the body while inhabiting it. Encounter defeated with one spell.

Encounter two. Repeat steps from encounter one. May have to cast magic jar as you move through the necropolis. Remember to stay within the range of the spell. There is nothing preventing you from using your hijacked body to move your real body and the gem. Just make sure they are sufficiently safe.

Encounter three. Godric has a decent chance of making the will save. Unfortunately for him he has to make it twice. If he does make it twice just hijack one of his guardians and kill him when he least expects it.

Encounter four. Perhaps a bit more difficult. Excuse yourself to the bathroom and magic jar hop. Go to the highest hit dice you can find. I know that the write up says you can not defeat the wizard in open combat but even the lvl 20 wizard from the npc codex is going down most of the time, and with no recourse. If this is not an option just jump from high hit die to high hit die souls until you find one guarding the goods.

Encounter five. The hardest encounter for our soul hopper. You still have a better then 50% chance of taking him down the first day. If you get unlucky just find a place to hunker down and wait till the next day to try again.

What makes this trick work is that Magic Jar does not require line of effect. You can attack with impunity from behind total cover or even buried in the ground in a casket with a bottle of air. That combined with the fact that when your host body dies you go back to the jar to try again makes this spell very powerful.


I'll see how far my Mindchemist Vivisectionist can get when I wake up in the morning.


Okie Dokie here we go.

Numbers may be slightly off in terms of wealth but it should come relatively close.

Archaeologist Bard
Evangelist Cleric
Ranger
Wizard

BEfore we start the encounters as made aren't CR12 anymore. They're closer to CR15-16. Particularly when you add in "infinite" anything. But given we have a full group. That's fine. I just wished that had been made more explicit.

That noted let's knock this mess out.

Encounter 1: Patience is what will ultimately win the day here. The dragon is almost a non-factor since the terrain screws it more than it screws the group. BReath weapon is nigh useless (too much cover) flying is equally pointless (it's huge). Mobility belongs to the group. If Buff's lands a slow (DC21 or 22) then it's pretty much over.

The tower is even less tricky. The caster's dictate the terms of this fight and between the stone tower, plethora of pit spells, grease spells, and available archery the group picks and chooses it's battles.

The only real concern is the succubus posing as a prisoner at the end. It's bluff is really really hard to beat even at this level so it largely depends on what buffs are running at the time of meeting it. Though honestly this succubus will likely cut its losses and endeavor to get the hell away from the party the first chance it gets. A pitched battle with the group would be suicide and it can't rely on spell like abilities in a group full of good will saves. Better to wreck havoc later with easier victims. Call it a draw on that regard.

Encounter 2: Yeah, no. The moment we add unlimited amounts of any enemies into the CR we skew it immensely. There's no point in wasting resources to slog through mounds and mounds of dead bodies to eventually
reach the baddy hiding in the darkness no one can penetrate.

Instead we back off, memorize all the terrain altering spells we can manage and seal the whole necropolis off filling in as much space with iron, stone, and molten lava as we can manage. This may happen over the course of several days. What's mohrg going to do teleport out? Dig maybe? Good luck with that. The ranger and bard can handle mop up of the left overs and complain about never having to face the cowardly master beneath. We inform the local big good guy undead hating church to seal it good and proper or get a real crusade on it. Adventurers aren't armies.

However, if the GM wises up and realizes having infinite hordes of zombies pour out of anything is just plain silly (or at least adds a way in that bypasses these) adn we get in then we have to deal with forbiddance which hurts us. Sucks but we have wands of CLW and some minor channeling so no big deal.

It's at this point where we realize back when I did the Skinsaw murders with thsi group Grumpy took favored enemy undead. That favored enemy is now at +6 In short, whatever Grumpy hits, he destroys.

The only big threat here is Blasphemy and posession. Both are mitigated through positioning ensuring the mohrg only gets maybe one person in the blasphemy. Everyone's saves against this spell are solid and made even better with Communal Prot. Evil up. POsession is slightly harder to deal with but between saving finale, gallant inspiration, good fortune, touch of luck, and loads of ways to boost saves it will be hard to fail that roll.

As for the darkness. Indiana can cast daylight. That's more than enough rounds to flatten the Mohrg with the initiative we have. Particularly if we're already buffed from facing fast zombies.

Encounter 3: Forbiddance is awfully popular.

Again, skeletons are screwed by battlefield control while the Erinyes lose an archery battle with the bard and ranger.

Godric is doomed to die. His +8 initiative means he's Buff's b&%*~. Forbiddance means his summons are useless. His best bet are his enchantment spells, which if we've learned anything just means that communal prot. from evil is just that much more valuable (and good will saves to boot). He couldn't even teleport out. The group punches him till he gives up his +5 cloak of resistance.

Encounter 4: Did you seriously think any group anywhere was going to accomplish the above in one day? I hope not. There's challenging, there's hard, and then there's silly. We've reached silly.

Let's assume for a moment the GM's not one who deserves to have empty snack packages thrown at him and he at least gives the group a day or two to recover between each CR14 encounter. Otherwise how would the group have even been invited to the ball? Wizard delivery?

In any case how do we do this?

We shag the queen. No seriously. We're already invited so she knows of us. Everyone will be on their best behavior. And we simply attempt to get into the queens good graces. The bard can roll twic on diplomacy, use glibness for a ridiculous bluff roll, and has a fascination with powerful and beautiful women. He's not of noble blood but would make a fine consort.

What you wanted us to go through her wards in some silly attempt against a spellcaster we can't fight? Screw that. The encounter sounds pretty clearly like a "this is suicide" description from my side of the table. We can't teleport the wizard in, sneaking is problematic, and fighting the guards only alerts the queen. Indiana would rather have a a long session testing his CMB against the queens CMD in the bedroom then do that. So, we shag her. The group does a couple of odd jobs for her and before long we simply learn of her alliance through other means because the GM actually wants the plot to happen.

Encounter 5: And here's where the group packs it in.

Did we forget the group itself was supposed to be level 10? The above is CR15 at the start and then it gets ridiculous.

I can choose not to scry and fry (as that what the forbiddance was obviously for earlier) but in these cases I can't choose not to be a total bastard in how I handle the encounters. It's more of a test of player tactics then class viability.

For example how do we choose to be a total bastard in this one? Well for one his lair is a stupid place to fight. So, using linguistics,and a ridiculous bluff we lure the dragon into a battle ground of our choosing leading him to believe that the queen wishes to negotiate extra payment or some other idea. Once he's in we teleport on top of him and rip him up by round two. He'll probably go in buffed just in case, but we can rip those spells up with dispel magics if we must. Underground he has no means of escape. A fully buffed group in a prepared battlefield should be enough to pull this off since the dragon is limited by sheer action and positional advantage.

As it is I don't see this as a fair test to see if an individual class can replace one character or another. But really a test of a group's patience with the GM. I'll probably do this again but using the original stuff since I can be much more conventional. If I ahd read the alterations first I would ahve done that earlier.

The idea with what I'm doing is giving context so people can make characters to fit into a group rather than create solo artists.

So, if anyone wants to do that pick a character to replace, make a character and then explain how your character helps conquer each encounter knowing what the characters did before. Feel welcome to ask questions regarding on how the individual character would work in that encounter. Let's assume the original scenarios rather than the extra beefy kind.

Special thanks to the Queen for not having STD's, and to Godric for the sweet gear.


Protection from evil makes you immune to the morhg's possesion.

EDIT: I have noticed that prot from evil is an S tier spell, and gives you immunities to a whole ton of terrible things.


CWheezy wrote:

Protection from evil makes you immune to the morhg's possesion.

EDIT: I have noticed that prot from evil is an S tier spell, and gives you immunities to a whole ton of terrible things.

Absolutely. If I seemed frustrated it's just that it doesn't feel like a test of character so much as a test of player once numbers reach a point where they cease to matter as much.

As I said sometime later I'll go back and do it under the original scenarios.


Andreww what spell did you pick for magical lineage?


So are these encounters meant to be solo'd or meant to be played with a team?

Liberty's Edge

FanaticRat wrote:
So are these encounters meant to be solo'd or meant to be played with a team?

Originally? Done as a team. But a lot of people thought we could build characters who could solo them. We appear to have been correct.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
FanaticRat wrote:
So are these encounters meant to be solo'd or meant to be played with a team?
Originally? Done as a team. But a lot of people thought we could build characters who could solo them. We appear to have been correct.

So what's the point, then? What does this thread prove?

It'd be nice to see more sample teams and how they work together, or, hell, even seeing how a team of the characters posted here would work together.

Liberty's Edge

FanaticRat wrote:
So what's the point, then? What does this thread prove?

Either way you do it it's a comparison between classes. A Synthesist Summoner with a Paladin dip soled everything easily. An Inquisitor or Druid can probably manage to solo it, but it's a little dicey in parts. A Rogue...has a seriously difficult time in a few bits, and, unlike the others, only works at all because of a very niche specialty, and wouldn't be much use in a group.

All that is useful information when comparing said classes.

FanaticRat wrote:
It'd be nice to see more sample teams and how they work together, or, hell, even seeing how a team of the characters posted here would work together.

This was suggested, and a good plan. Nobody ever quite got around to doing it. Feel free. :)

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