False Focus + Various optional components


Rules Questions


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False Focus Feat - Inner Sea Magic

Quote:
By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component. For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less.

Varisian Idols - Varisia Birthplace of Legends

Quote:
If used as an additional material component when casting a spell the idol affects, a Varisian idol increases the effect of that spell. Using multiple idols to cast a spell has no additional effect. A Varisian idol is destroyed after one use.

Alchemical Power Components - Adventure's Armory

Quote:
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell’s normal effects.

Since False focus allows you to ignore expensive material component when casting spells, you should be able to add a Varisian idol or Alchemical Power component for free. Correct? If not, is there anything mentioned by one of the developers that specifically says you can't do this?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't have a quote, but I think the intent is clear that there is an implicit "required" before "material component". A.K.A. "...you can cast any spell with a required material component costing the value of that divine focus..."

Continual Flame's ruby dust, yes. Fireball's alchemist's fire, no.

Seems like something that could have table variance though.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I've always read it completely opposite of timebomb. I figure what would be the point of the feat if it's JUST for the required components? Seems pretty worthless compared to Eschew Materials if it works like that. How many spells have component from 6-100gp?

So yeah, totally use it with Alchemical Power Components and Varisian Idols.

Liberty's Edge

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I personally use False Focus on my devout Pharasman wizard for alchemical power components, and none of the GMs I've explained it to in PFS play have batted an eye.

Now, the necromancer who noted the feat, after playing with me, and decided to get a Pharasman holy tattoo and use it as a component in raising undead .... well. You KNOW Pharasma is going to take her pound of flesh when he reaches the Boneyard.


The holy symbol tattoo is the way to go with this feat. It's 100gp and makes it quite hard to get it stolen...


graystone wrote:
The holy symbol tattoo is the way to go with this feat. It's 100gp and makes it quite hard to get it stolen...

so apparently, i had missed the tattoo option when i looked over holy symbols... anyway, this makes me wonder what value the holy symbol for the birthmark trait counts as.


graystone wrote:
The holy symbol tattoo is the way to go with this feat. It's 100gp and makes it quite hard to get it stolen...

But do notice that the tattoo need to be visible to be used as a Holy Symbol. So you forgo the option of wearing gloves, if you isn't hardcore enough to have the symbol of a random religion (that allows holy symbol tattoos) in your forehead.


It doesn't need to be an actual holy symbol, just something that serves as one. Remember Ramzir's not-actually holy symbol not only works, but is the main use for this. Aroden's holy symbol works nicely on the forehead for someone who completely doesn't care about pretending to be a divine caster and just wants the free components.

graystone wrote:
How many spells have component from 6-100gp?

More than you'd think. Look at most Permanent spells and it will fall under this (I'd imagine it is so you don't spam them).

The ability to Arcane Lock, Sepia Snake Sigil, Fire Trap, and Magic Mouch EVERYTHING is pretty nice, even if you don't have a lair. Fabricate Bullets is a nice money maker (casting for hire gets 10 gold, making 25 bullets with the spell and selling them gets 12.5 GP). Nondetection is a spell a wizard may want to cast daily and would rather not blow 50 GP a day on. Communal Stoneskin for one target is free. Storm of Blades can now summon artifact swords for no costs (because artifacts have no costs) and if that's too cheesy for you, very big daggers or sickles work OK (sadly this is the only way to make this spell useful).

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:

I've always read it completely opposite of timebomb. I figure what would be the point of the feat if it's JUST for the required components? Seems pretty worthless compared to Eschew Materials if it works like that. How many spells have component from 6-100gp?

So yeah, totally use it with Alchemical Power Components and Varisian Idols.

I share timebomb opinion.

I am very vary of mixing abilities fro two non core (hardbound) rulebooks. Generally the material in the softbook is made keeping in mind only what is in the hardbound, not the other softbound.

The feat is for the Rasmirian Priest archetype, not to allow you to use power components for free.

Scarab Sages

There are plenty of spells that have required components at or less than 100 gp.

Continual Flame, Symbol of Mirroring, Animate Dead (potentially), Masterwork Transformation on tools, Fabricate, ect.

It is basically a less cheesy version of blood money.

Allowing power components isn't exactly game-breaking though, and it at least leads to some interesting play when inquisitors of the god you're displaying are not pleased with your heresy. Still wouldn't allow it though.


Fabricate alone makes it a nice feat: any 300 GP or less mundane item whenever you want it instantly and forever, you can just use it to make money from nothing (make 300 GP of stuff and sell it. Way less than just selling a casting of a 5th level spell, but much easier to find buyers), stockpile the stuff (make 300 GP of iron ingots out of non-existant 100 GP of iron ore and keep it till you can make whatever aribtrary thing of iron you want). With a wave of your hand you can feed 3000 people a common meal, 1000 men common meals, make 600 non-perishables, or have 300 people pig out (You don't even need bread or fish!). The sky is the limit.

Dark Archive

The feat is pretty good without Power Components. It works on any spell, not just arcane ones. All you need is an 'arcane' spell-like ability and you can take it as a divine caster. And casting Restoration without spending 100 gp is nice.


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deuxhero wrote:
Fabricate alone makes it a nice feat: any 300 GP or less mundane item whenever you want it instantly and forever, you can just use it to make money from nothing (make 300 GP of stuff and sell it. Way less than just selling a casting of a 5th level spell, but much easier to find buyers), stockpile the stuff (make 300 GP of iron ingots out of non-existant 100 GP of iron ore), have any meal you want (not just the taste of one!) with a wave of your hand (you can feed 1000 men common meals, make 600 non-perishables, or have 300 people pig out). The sky is the limit.

Actually Fabricate doesn't work.

The spell "convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material".
While False focus could remove the need for a material component, it doesn't change the fact that the spell effect is changing something into something else. It is a transmutation spell, not a conjuration (creation) spell.


Diego Rossi wrote:
graystone wrote:

I've always read it completely opposite of timebomb. I figure what would be the point of the feat if it's JUST for the required components? Seems pretty worthless compared to Eschew Materials if it works like that. How many spells have component from 6-100gp?

So yeah, totally use it with Alchemical Power Components and Varisian Idols.

I share timebomb opinion.

I am very vary of mixing abilities fro two non core (hardbound) rulebooks. Generally the material in the softbook is made keeping in mind only what is in the hardbound, not the other softbound.

The feat is for the Rasmirian Priest archetype, not to allow you to use power components for free.

I can see someone not liking this and houseruling it out but I can't see a RAW reason it wouldn't work. This question WAS asked in the rules forum. Varisian Idols and Alchemical Power Components are called out as material components and False Focus cover material component costs. If either of you has a RAW reason I'd be interested to hear it.


Jadeite wrote:
The feat is pretty good without Power Components. It works on any spell, not just arcane ones. All you need is an 'arcane' spell-like ability and you can take it as a divine caster. And casting Restoration without spending 100 gp is nice.

Actually a part of the feat specifies arcane spells:

False Focus wrote:

...

For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less.
...


HaraldKlak wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Fabricate alone makes it a nice feat: any 300 GP or less mundane item whenever you want it instantly and forever, you can just use it to make money from nothing (make 300 GP of stuff and sell it. Way less than just selling a casting of a 5th level spell, but much easier to find buyers), stockpile the stuff (make 300 GP of iron ingots out of non-existant 100 GP of iron ore), have any meal you want (not just the taste of one!) with a wave of your hand (you can feed 1000 men common meals, make 600 non-perishables, or have 300 people pig out). The sky is the limit.

Actually Fabricate doesn't work.

The spell "convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material".
While False focus could remove the need for a material component, it doesn't change the fact that the spell effect is changing something into something else. It is a transmutation spell, not a conjuration (creation) spell.

So what's to stop you from adding free materials to convert? Change a pile of leaves into your item using the feat to cover the GP requirement.


graystone wrote:
So what's to stop you from adding free materials to convert? Change a pile of leaves into your item using the feat to cover the GP requirement.

Nothing, except that you get an item made from leaves, and that the quality of the item you create is commensurate with the quality of the material you use.

Scarab Sages

For rules: False focus states "...you can cast any spell with a material component..." and and power component is " ... an alchemical item used as a material component..." thus specifically not a material component, just used as one.

I can't give a reason why something like the Varisian Idols can't be used, but I think there is an argument for disallowing things that aren't specifically called material components.

That said I am clearly biased in my opinion.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

The reason I ask is because it just seems a bit over powered compared to other feats. This single feat grants:
1) +1 to all ability enhancement spells (Avaria idol)
2) +2 to all dispel checks (Avidais idol)
3) +2 to each summoned monster HD (Idolis idol)
4) +2 vs SR with damaging spells (Ragario idol)
5) Bleed effect with damaging necromancy spells (Voratalo idol)
6) Makes common fire based spells catch people on fire (alchemist's fire)
7) Makes common acid based spells last 1 round longer (Vial of Acid)
8) Makes wall of stone slippery (Grease)
9) Makes wall of iron immune to rust spells (Bladeguard)
10) Improves a couple of cold based spells (Liquid Ice)
11) Improves a couple of grapple related spells (Tanglefoot bag)
12) Makes alarm spell act as thunderstone (Thunderstone)
13) Make Continual Flames for free and sell for 55gp.
14) Make 16 masterwork arrows for free with masterwork transformation spell.
15) Fire trap, Arcane Lock, Nondetect, Creating 4HD undead and a couple other spells never have a cost.
16) AND it acts as the Eschew Material components feat.
17) Don't forget you can add your feats to crafting magical items. So you can scribe scrolls, make wands or wondrous item with these effects.

I don't know why any wizard wouldn't take this feat, nor why anyone would ever take eschew material components now.

Dark Archive

HaraldKlak wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
The feat is pretty good without Power Components. It works on any spell, not just arcane ones. All you need is an 'arcane' spell-like ability and you can take it as a divine caster. And casting Restoration without spending 100 gp is nice.

Actually a part of the feat specifies arcane spells:

False Focus wrote:

...

For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less.
...

That's an example. Do you also argue that the feat can only be used with a silver holy symbol?


Jadeite wrote:
HaraldKlak wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
The feat is pretty good without Power Components. It works on any spell, not just arcane ones. All you need is an 'arcane' spell-like ability and you can take it as a divine caster. And casting Restoration without spending 100 gp is nice.

Actually a part of the feat specifies arcane spells:

False Focus wrote:

...

For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less.
...
That's an example. Do you also argue that the feat can only be used with a silver holy symbol?

Well, when you choose to include non-core rules elements, I don't think it is a bit unreasonable to expect a bit of common sense.

Let us take a look a the full feat text.

False Focus wrote:

False Focus

You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.

Prerequisite: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability to cast arcane spells.

Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component. For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than the value of the divine focus, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.

Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells.

So that is four times in the text that it mentions arcane spells. That heavily suggest that it is supposed to affect arcane spells only.

Does it specify that it is limited to arcane spell explicitly? No.
Was that necessary at the time the feat was written? No, because the spell like ability FAQ hadn't been ruled at that point.

Dark Archive

You don't need spell-likes, a level in an arcane class works, too.


Splendor wrote:

The reason I ask is because it just seems a bit over powered compared to other feats. This single feat grants:

1) +1 to all ability enhancement spells (Avaria idol)
2) +2 to all dispel checks (Avidais idol)
3) +2 to each summoned monster HD (Idolis idol)
4) +2 vs SR with damaging spells (Ragario idol)
5) Bleed effect with damaging necromancy spells (Voratalo idol)
6) Makes common fire based spells catch people on fire (alchemist's fire)
7) Makes common acid based spells last 1 round longer (Vial of Acid)
8) Makes wall of stone slippery (Grease)
9) Makes wall of iron immune to rust spells (Bladeguard)
10) Improves a couple of cold based spells (Liquid Ice)
11) Improves a couple of grapple related spells (Tanglefoot bag)
12) Makes alarm spell act as thunderstone (Thunderstone)
13) Make Continual Flames for free and sell for 55gp.
14) Make 16 masterwork arrows for free with masterwork transformation spell.
15) Fire trap, Arcane Lock, Nondetect, Creating 4HD undead and a couple other spells never have a cost.
16) AND it acts as the Eschew Material components feat.
17) Don't forget you can add your feats to crafting magical items. So you can scribe scrolls, make wands or wondrous item with these effects.

I don't know why any wizard wouldn't take this feat, nor why anyone would ever take eschew material components now.

Looking at this list and seeing in this thread that some say yes to it all.

I hit FAQ. I expect that the answer May be no.

Liberty's Edge

deuxhero wrote:
Fabricate alone makes it a nice feat: any 300 GP or less mundane item whenever you want it instantly and forever, you can just use it to make money from nothing (make 300 GP of stuff and sell it. Way less than just selling a casting of a 5th level spell, but much easier to find buyers), stockpile the stuff (make 300 GP of iron ingots out of non-existant 100 GP of iron ore and keep it till you can make whatever aribtrary thing of iron you want). With a wave of your hand you can feed 3000 people a common meal, 1000 men common meals, make 600 non-perishables, or have 300 people pig out (You don't even need bread or fish!). The sky is the limit.

What people trying that trick forget is the target line of the spell.

PRD wrote:


Fabricate
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.

You need target the items on which you cast fabricate. So your 100 gp holy symbol is converted in the product of the spell. Note that the product is made by the same material of your holy symbol.

So:
- you convert your holy symbol in an ingot. Note that it is not a crafting process, so you don't gain value in the process, instead you lose it as you are converting a finished product into components.
You need to start with raw ore to get a ingot worth more than the starting component (i.e. you need to use the Profession (smelter) skill).
- the final product is made by the same material, so your "common meal" is made by se same stuff of your holy symbol. I doubt it will be comestible.

BTW it is the same problem that bloody money has with fabricate and some people conveniently forget. Your final product is made of blood, not whatever stuff you are trying to emulate.

graystone wrote:
HaraldKlak wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Fabricate alone makes it a nice feat: any 300 GP or less mundane item whenever you want it instantly and forever, you can just use it to make money from nothing (make 300 GP of stuff and sell it. Way less than just selling a casting of a 5th level spell, but much easier to find buyers), stockpile the stuff (make 300 GP of iron ingots out of non-existant 100 GP of iron ore), have any meal you want (not just the taste of one!) with a wave of your hand (you can feed 1000 men common meals, make 600 non-perishables, or have 300 people pig out). The sky is the limit.

Actually Fabricate doesn't work.

The spell "convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material".
While False focus could remove the need for a material component, it doesn't change the fact that the spell effect is changing something into something else. It is a transmutation spell, not a conjuration (creation) spell.

So what's to stop you from adding free materials to convert? Change a pile of leaves into your item using the feat to cover the GP requirement.
PRD wrote:


Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)

The target and the material component are the original material to be trasmuted. They aren't 2 different things.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
graystone wrote:

I've always read it completely opposite of timebomb. I figure what would be the point of the feat if it's JUST for the required components? Seems pretty worthless compared to Eschew Materials if it works like that. How many spells have component from 6-100gp?

So yeah, totally use it with Alchemical Power Components and Varisian Idols.

I share timebomb opinion.

I am very vary of mixing abilities fro two non core (hardbound) rulebooks. Generally the material in the softbook is made keeping in mind only what is in the hardbound, not the other softbound.

The feat is for the Rasmirian Priest archetype, not to allow you to use power components for free.

I can see someone not liking this and houseruling it out but I can't see a RAW reason it wouldn't work. This question WAS asked in the rules forum. Varisian Idols and Alchemical Power Components are called out as material components and False Focus cover material component costs. If either of you has a RAW reason I'd be interested to hear it.
Quote:


By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component
Quote:


If used as an additional material component when casting a spell the idol affects, a Varisian idol increases the effect of that spell.

It is not a material component of the spell, it is an additional material component, so it is not affected by the feat.

Quote:


An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell’s normal effects.

It is not a material component of the spell, it is an alchemical power component ... used as a material component or focus so it is not affected by the feat.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

If the alchemical power component is consumed in the process, then it was a material component. If it was not consumed, then it was a focus.

I'd think the "false focus" only works on the former case, not the latter, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

In the case of the Varisian Idol, those are OPTIONAL components, so I'm not certain that false focus provides them. I'm not sure if I have that source in my possession, so I'll need to do a bit of digging before I form a firm opinion, but I'm leaning towards "not" at the moment.


the alchemical components are also optional.

the question is Do spells to which you can add optional material components for additional effects count as "spells with a material component" even if the original spell entry has none?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I thought the question was "Can False Focus provide OPTIONAL material components for additional effects ?"


Hoping for a FAQ answer now


I just sat down with the PC and pointed out my problem with it.
We came the the agreement to redo how false Focus works.

1) It turns a single material component, normal, power, optional, etc. Into a focus rather than it being used up. So the character still has to buy and carry any of these optional components he wants.

2) He cannot use more than one optional component on a spell. So he can't use a vial of acid for the focus alchemical component and the alchemical material component (even if he has 2 vials).

3) The False Focus component must be in his had to use it. Can't be in a bag.

4) All varisian idols now have a weight of 1 lb. Most alchemical components also weigh 1 lb.

5) If the optional component is easily accessible; around neck, in adventurer's sash, its a free action to draw it. If its somewhere else, its a move action (minimum).

6) Any spell he casts using his false focus feat that has a permanent duration has its duration changed. The new duration is in weeks per level. This cuts down on him sell perm. items he paid nothing for.

This has made him buy a spell component pouch (5lbs), a adventurer's sash (3lbs) and 6 optional components (6lbs). So I weighed him down by 14lbs and cut down some of the feat's uses without making it useless.

Scarab Sages

keerawa wrote:

I personally use False Focus on my devout Pharasman wizard for alchemical power components, and none of the GMs I've explained it to in PFS play have batted an eye.

Now, the necromancer who noted the feat, after playing with me, and decided to get a Pharasman holy tattoo and use it as a component in raising undead .... well. You KNOW Pharasma is going to take her pound of flesh when he reaches the Boneyard.

You must be Hoji. ;)

Pharasma can kiss my ***. Hehe

/waves


Splendor wrote:

I just sat down with the PC and pointed out my problem with it.

We came the the agreement to redo how false Focus works.

1) It turns a single material component, normal, power, optional, etc. Into a focus rather than it being used up. So the character still has to buy and carry any of these optional components he wants.

2) He cannot use more than one optional component on a spell. So he can't use a vial of acid for the focus alchemical component and the alchemical material component (even if he has 2 vials).

3) The False Focus component must be in his had to use it. Can't be in a bag.

4) All varisian idols now have a weight of 1 lb. Most alchemical components also weigh 1 lb.

5) If the optional component is easily accessible; around neck, in adventurer's sash, its a free action to draw it. If its somewhere else, its a move action (minimum).

6) Any spell he casts using his false focus feat that has a permanent duration has its duration changed. The new duration is in weeks per level. This cuts down on him sell perm. items he paid nothing for.

This has made him buy a spell component pouch (5lbs), a adventurer's sash (3lbs) and 6 optional components (6lbs). So I weighed him down by 14lbs and cut down some of the feat's uses without making it useless.

Still hoping for a FAQ answer here for PFS players at least. Your solution is fine for a home game but organized play still has the conundrum.

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