Showing people that the gods care...


Advice


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I am playing a mythic cleric in a (generally) lowish-magic vaguely ancient-Greek world that is falling apart at the seams (monsters, natural disasters, spontaneous changes in geography, etc.). The party has arrived in one of the surviving major city states, which is crammed full of refugees, and while we are naturally going to do normal adventurer things to help the government deal with the situation - escorting supply caravans, hunting down monsters, etc. - for roleplaying reasons I would love to find some creative things to do during downtime to show the common people that the gods have not deserted them (as they increasingly seem to fear). The local religious authorities are of little help, being relatively feckless and lacking divine powers themselves (remember, this is a low-magic setting - the high priests are all Experts...).

My ideal approach involves doing something that actually helps people (which is hard), rather than simply showcases my own divine connection (which is easy).

Resources to hand:

1. 7th level Aasimar cleric, 2nd tier mythic character, with Inspired Spell (Me)
2. 6th level sorcerer, 2nd tier mythic character, with Wild Arcana and Inscribe Magical Tattoo (Helpful Party Member)
3. About 3k gold, and miscellaneous wondrous items (roughly in line with what one would expect for a 5th level character, mostly with combat or dungeon crawling applications)

Obviously, one thing I can do is use my channel positive energy to heal a lot of people, which is a great start.

If I were to dedicate all of my 3rd/4th level spell slots to the task, I could also cast Create Food and Water 5x/day at CL7 and 7x/day at CL9 (using Inspired Spell), which I think comes out to enough food for 294 people per day - but in a city full of refugees, that's a drop in the bucket.

I have a fairly easygoing DM, so bringing in 3.5 material, even fairly esoteric stuff, is probably an option (provided it's not something I could readily carry over to abusing in combat, etc.).

Any ideas?


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So, for the purpose of healing, you can't do very much useful good. Even channel positive energy is just hit points and most refugees wouldn't really be missing those (maybe some nonlethal damage from exhaustion or starvation if your GM wants to rule that way).

The real good comes from food, water, and things like remove disease, remove blindness/deafness, and other permanent solutions to permanent issues. And as you point out, you can help a few folks, but it isn't exactly a whole lot of good to a whole lot of people.

Using these various items, you're best off touring the city and performing these 'miracles' to large groups and at random locations. It is more about exposure than actually putting bread into the hands of each person.

You could also pick up craft wand and make wands of create food/water or purify food/drink. Heck, creating water and purifying stuff are level 0 orisons, so creating a wand of them should be very cheap.

There's also the tricky route. You could set up some stage shows with the sorcerer and go for a "good cleric defeats evil tattooed bad guy" act. Toss in various illusions and some pyrotechnics from the Sorcerer and you can probably set up a believable (by the masses anyway) act.

Just some ideas. Overall though, don't expect to be able to effect thousands of people a day. It is more a morale game than a substantive assistance game.

Start a school and get a few assistants and make them clerics, or at least the NPC class that gets a few cleric spells.

Silver Crusade

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The heck with a wand, casting Purify Food and Water a lot actually can do a lot. In the ancient world getting potable water and keeping food from rotting were both big deals, especially when you have massive overcrowding issues.

Another option might be to do magic for rich citizens for money and use that money to help the poor.

Use magic to help in building projects. Ant haul, lighten object, stone shape, etc could help to build some kind of housing


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All good thoughts, thanks!

One other idea I've had in the meantime is to see about having the sorcerer help me to cast a Symbol of Healing with permanency on some sort of sacred altar where it can be used by the soldiers of the city as they return from fighting the many dangers that beset the land. Of course, this will have to wait until said sorcerer gains enough levels to actually cast a 5th level spell, by which point we will likely have moved on...


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You have a small resource pool and a large number of people to help. This screams Leadership Feat to me. Get your cohort(s) to be a Cleric(s) and take over one of the temples. Followers could be acolytes. Presto, a temple where magic works. A half dozen 1st level Adepts will have a lot more spell power to aid the populace than a single character because they can be seen all over the place.

Another thing is that if you distract the populace, they will be more docile, allowing the authorities to better do whatever they are doing to aid them. The Romans had welfare and spectaculars, or better known as Bread and Circuses to distract the populace. They did it to let the government get away with a bunch of stuff, but you can do the same to let the government do what is needed.

I played a 2ed game with "the loss of the gods" as a theme. We had to adventure to recover relics, than when returned to their proper place, had the effect of bringing back divine power back to the world. However, it was only the Greek gods missing, not others, but for our all divine Greek party, the other gods were enemies and their priests to be attacked. The lack of divine power was reflected in capping high level spell caps. I.e. no 4th or higher until so many relics were replace. Then 5th until more were replaced, etc.

For downtime activities, you could actually make a temple and teach new clerics. There are plenty of gods to choose from, and some (Aphrodite) are readily formed into a money making scheme. Others (Ares, Artemis) are good for training warriors that can help defend and impose order upon the surrounding area.

The 2ed game went on a while, so I have thought a lot about Greek themed D&D if you need ideas.

/cevah


You're still just showing the people that you care, and that you have amazing powers; powers that you say come from the gods, but does that particular distinction really matter?


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Cevah wrote:

You have a small resource pool and a large number of people to help. This screams Leadership Feat to me. Get your cohort(s) to be a Cleric(s) and take over one of the temples. Followers could be acolytes. Presto, a temple where magic works. A half dozen 1st level Adepts will have a lot more spell power to aid the populace than a single character because they can be seen all over the place. [...]

For downtime activities, you could actually make a temple and teach new clerics. There are plenty of gods to choose from, and some (Aphrodite) are readily formed into a money making scheme. Others (Ares, Artemis) are good for training warriors that can help defend and impose order upon the surrounding area.

The 2ed game went on a while, so I have thought a lot about Greek themed D&D if you need ideas.

Spreading the divine power around is definitely a good idea - I'm already getting a reputation (our first encounter with the people of the city was helping a detachment of their soldiers under attack by monsters, and I spent most of the battle flying around buffing and healing the NPCs, which they were pretty enthusiastic about once they figured out that I wasn't a new monster of some kind), and I have decent (16) charisma, so attracting followers might be possible even without the leadership feat. Of course, whether or not the DM will let me train people up as Adepts is another question. (There may be some minor application for Imbue with Spell Ability here as well...)

One of the advantages/disadvantages I have in all of this is that my established patron deity is Hermes. So I've got the whole "divine messenger/intercessor between mortals and gods" thing working in my favor, but the rest of his portfolio is not quite as helpful. The biggest existing temples in the city are to Apollo and Athena, so I'm a bit concerned about potentially rocking the boat of local religious politics in problematic ways...


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Hehehe... seems like what you're doing (helping people while the gods seem not to care) is a rather efficient way to set one-self up as a god.

Jokes aside, what is your alignement? You could take "divine source" & the healing domain, start training cleric to follow you & help the people...

Ok, this just seems like the perfect situation to rise to godhood at the behest of your god... :P


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williamoak wrote:

Hehehe... seems like what you're doing (helping people while the gods seem not to care) is a rather efficient way to set one-self up as a god.

Jokes aside, what is your alignement? You could take "divine source" & the healing domain, start training cleric to follow you & help the people...

Ok, this just seems like the perfect situation to rise to godhood at the behest of your god... :P

Indeed it does. And perhaps ultimately I shall... :P

In any case, I am Chaotic Good.

Divine source looks promising. That said, if I read it correctly, I'm restricted to choosing from the domains matching my alignment (Chaos, Good, and their respective subdomains), correct?


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Ansibelle wrote:
williamoak wrote:

Hehehe... seems like what you're doing (helping people while the gods seem not to care) is a rather efficient way to set one-self up as a god.

Jokes aside, what is your alignement? You could take "divine source" & the healing domain, start training cleric to follow you & help the people...

Ok, this just seems like the perfect situation to rise to godhood at the behest of your god... :P

Indeed it does. And perhaps ultimately I shall... :P

In any case, I am Chaotic Good.

Divine source looks promising. That said, if I read it correctly, I'm restricted to choosing from the domains matching my alignment (Chaos, Good, and their respective subdomains), correct?

yeah... I was kinda hoping you where neutral good... Oh well, you can always take it twice (the given SLAs can be worth it)

Still, if any "good" character is likely to be unsatisfied with the gods & wish to usurp them, it should be a CG character...

Still, I can imagine a paladin-like character who, believing the gods arent utlimately working towards the good of humanity, might seek to usurp them...


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williamoak wrote:


yeah... I was kinda hoping you where neutral good... Oh well, you can always take it twice (the given SLAs can be worth it)

Still, if any "good" character is likely to be unsatisfied with the gods & wish to usurp them, it should be a CG character...

Still, I can imagine a paladin-like character who, believing the gods arent utlimately working towards the good of humanity, might seek to usurp them...

I might well be able to get the DM to let me swing an official alignment change (CG -> NG) if I decide I want to - she's never done anything all that chaotic alignment seeming, and she's generally been acting more deferential to the existing authorities than one might expect of a CG character.

Either way, I can't see my character deliberately trying to usurp the gods - she's really quite loyal to Hermes - but I could easily imagine her moving closer and closer to effectively becoming one of them through a series of "it seemed appropriate at the time" type steps, this being one of them.


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Ansibelle wrote:
williamoak wrote:

Still, if any "good" character is likely to be unsatisfied with the gods & wish to usurp them, it should be a CG character...

Still, I can imagine a paladin-like character who, believing the gods arent utlimately working towards the good of humanity, might seek to usurp them...

I might be able to swing an alignment change (CG -> NG) if I decide I want to - she's generally been acting more deferential to the local authorities than one might expect of a CG character.

Either way, I can't see my character deliberately trying to usurp the gods - she's really quite loyal to Hermes - but I could easily imagine her moving closer and closer to effectively becoming one of them through a series of "it seemed appropriate at the time" type steps, this being one of them.

The gods aint doing their job? Well someone's gotta step up to it!

If there ever was a pantheon that did not care for humanity much, it is the greek pantheon. Very few of those gods I would consider good... (but that's me, I dont know your setting)


Find and take ownership of the greatest single oxen or cow (or whale...) Repeatedly Restore Corpse, and butcher that oxen all day long and into the next... it's a miracle! (Purify Food and Drink, is required)

Dream Feast, not useful as it affects only one creature, unless that creature is a milk cow... the starving cattle fatten and give milk! It's a miracle!

Abstemiousness, similar to above.

I think the real trouble is not can you help, but can you keep from hurting, when you have to go away?

You have to leverage your time in the city performing miracles into a time of teaching, planting seeds in hearts and gardens, both.

Edit: And there's a Heirophant Path power that lets you cast Create Food and Drink all day long. Maybe the famine is incarnate, someplace, and defeating it gets you that next tier, and the path power?


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...I can't think of anything that's actually divine.

There is always resetting magical traps of create food, cure light wounds, and lesser restoration, but that way lies the Tippy-verse. A first level witch can use a healing hex once a person per day. That has the capacity to be a lot of healing. Is there a way to snag mysteries or hexes from other classes without multiclassing?


Ignore me.


Ignore me.


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Ansibelle wrote:

I might be able to swing an alignment change (CG -> NG) if I decide I want to - she's generally been acting more deferential to the local authorities than one might expect of a CG character.

Either way, I can't see my character deliberately trying to usurp the gods - she's really quite loyal to Hermes - but I could easily imagine her moving closer and closer to effectively becoming one of them through a series of "it seemed appropriate at the time" type steps, this being one of them.

Well, iirc Greece has had its share of mysteries and cults, and of great heroes... if Orpheus or Asclepios could be worshipped, it should be possible to become considered a demipower at least. At any rate, I think chaotic and neutral good are both fine depending on which way your character goes. Just because you want to help everyone doesn't mean you have to obey the typical social conventions and mores - powerful people sometimes do not.

Anyway, look into ways to train a few others as clerics or at least adepts. Some of the cleric cantrips can be literal lifesavers there. Heck, access to first level adepts is a huge boon in a classical or medieval city, especially one beset by refugees - stabilize, purify, mending or create water as cantrips can significantly improve the quality of life and health in an overcrowded city, and guidance may add to, say, notably better crafts and thus economy. And if you can show the people that the gods are willing to share their gifts with at least some of the worthy... well, they certainly care, right? Speaking of which, it does not hurt to have other lasting examples of the divine assistance, such as magic items. Sustaining spoons can help people long after you are gone, for example. Crafting magic items is a fairly cost-effective way to invest your earnings - whether from adventuring or from your spellcasting.

Sometimes you need to play the Brutha - arguing the gods' cause before people, and people's cause before the gods.


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While a Decanter of Endless Water is 9000 gp, is more than the 3000gp you have, the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook indicates wondrous architecture is half the price of a portable item. Make a Font of Endless Water for 4500gp (half that if you have Craft Wondrous Item). Now the populace has clean fresh water enough for all.

As to the use of Hermes, I have this from Dragon #153:

Hermes:
Con man, trickster, master thief, mischief-maker, messenger, and agent of the other gods--in all his aspects. Hermes is renowned for his quick wits and keen mind. His church is one of the most active in the affairs of the world. His clerics negotiate trade agreements, organize fairs and markets, carry messages, and serve as fences for the thieves' guild. ("If you pray to the god for the return of what is lost, it will be returned--when suitable appreciation is shown.") His clerics are tricky, conniving, and self-interested, but they are also indispensable and are certainly better to have on your side than to have working against you. They must have a minimum intelligence score of12 and are expected to use their wits; far better to talk or think your way out of a problem than to depend on mere force. They adventure for fun almost as much as for wealth.
All of Hermes' clerics will be proficient runners at first level. The other favored skills are appraising or haggling*; nothing is more humiliating for them than being bested at bargaining. Dome DMs may want to allow them certain thieving skills as well, such as stealth*.

While the text is 2nd ed, it can give you ideas. First, you represent a messenger of the gods. Send the message to the other clerics "Your god(ess) find you feckless. Clean up your act and become true priests." You can also use your charming personality to change the temple's attitude from feckless to caring. High Diplomacy works here, but Charm Person also works, especially if you do it without them catching on.

As a cleric of a gambler, you could buy/create a gambling hall for the off duty soldiers, and let it be a place for restoring the mind even as it separates them from their money. If the money goes to funding help for the town, they will likely support it a lot.

The key is to create something that will outlive you. Heck, you could even commission a statue of your god, and then secretly enchant it to give one cure light wounds per day to the first injured person who touches it. It becomes a statue "Blessed by the Gods", and you don't have to be there.

There are lots of ways to help out, and some need you on the spot, others don't.

/cevah


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Ansibelle wrote:
The biggest existing temples in the city are to Apollo and Athena, so I'm a bit concerned about potentially rocking the boat of local religious politics in problematic ways...

The Greek gods were notoriously quarrelsome. They united against outside threats, like the titans, but in peacetime, they squabbled a lot. It fits for their clerics to do likewise. Go for it. "Release the Kracken"... um, no, "Release the Politics". [Which is worse?]

/cevah


Cevah wrote:


While the text is 2nd ed, it can give you ideas. First, you represent a messenger of the gods. Send the message to the other clerics "Your god(ess) find you feckless. Clean up your act and become true priests." You can also use your charming personality to change the temple's attitude from feckless to caring. High Diplomacy works here, but Charm Person also works, especially if you do it without them catching on.

As a cleric of a gambler, you could buy/create a gambling hall for the off duty soldiers, and let it be a place for restoring the mind even as it separates them from their money. If the money goes to funding help for the town, they will likely support it a lot.

The key is to create something that will outlive you. Heck, you could even commission a statue of your god, and then secretly enchant it to give one cure light wounds per day to the first injured person who touches it. It becomes a statue "Blessed by the Gods", and you don't have to be there.

There are lots of ways to help out, and some need you on the spot, others don't.

That text from Dragon #153 is certainly a nice little goldmine of ideas. Thank you for sharing!

Regarding the statue idea (which I really like) can you provide any insight into how to achieve that mechanically? (Ideally without opening the pandora's box of self-resetting magical traps...) Or is that something I would need to ask my DM about?


Thornborn wrote:

Find and take ownership of the greatest single oxen or cow (or whale...) Repeatedly Restore Corpse, and butcher that oxen all day long and into the next... it's a miracle! (Purify Food and Drink, is required)

That is very clever!


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williamoak wrote:


The gods aint doing their job? Well someone's gotta step up to it!

If there ever was a pantheon that did not care for humanity much, it is the greek pantheon. Very few of those gods I would consider good... (but that's me, I dont know your setting)

Available evidence suggests you're not that far off the mark - many of the worlds problems seem to be implicitly the result of the gods being cross with each-other in various ways.

I don't have an official ruling for Hermes' alignment, but in my head I've been imagining him as Chaotic Neutral. (Which is largely why I'm officially Chaotic Good instead of Neutral Good. I suppose I should ask for DM for clarification of this at some point.)


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Ansibelle wrote:

That text from Dragon #153 is certainly a nice little goldmine of ideas. Thank you for sharing!

Regarding the statue idea (which I really like) can you provide any insight into how to achieve that mechanically? (Ideally without opening the pandora's box of self-resetting magical traps...) Or is that something I would need to ask my DM about?

Craft Wondrous Items + Statue + Cure Light Wounds spell. Make it a 1/day effect, and you are good to go.

Excerpts about the god from other editions:

2nd Ed:

Hermes (intermediate god)
Hermes is the god of travelers, merchants, thieves, gamblers, athletes, and eloquent speech. He also serves the gods as a messenger and an arbitrator of disputes. He executed his first robbery when he was only one day old, stealing a herd of cattle from Apollo. In his true form, Hermes is a handsome youth who carries a white caduceus (winged rod entwined by two serpents). He can move from place to place almost instantaneously. Hermes also wears a pair of winged sandals that allow him to fly and a helm that allows him to turn invisible at will.
Role-playing Notes: Although an accomplished thief almost from the moment of his birth, Hermes has many other aspects as well. He has a keen sense of fairness that other gods often call upon in order to resolve disputes, and willingly uses his great speed to serve as a messenger to the gods (though he sends an avatar when dealing with humans or others on the Prime Material Plane). Omens from Hermes include an unusually good or bad run of luck or a sudden gust of wind as he or his avatar rushes past.
Statistics: Alignment cg; Worshipers Alignment any non-evil; Area of Control travel, trade, thievery, gambling, running; Symbol caduceus.

Duties of the Priesthood:
All of Hermes priests must keep physically fit and be able to run long distances (they must always select the running proficiency but need allocate only 1 slot to do so). They often serve as professional arbiters, since it is well known that Hermes sends his avatar to punish any priest he catches taking any form of bribe (15% chance per occurrence).

3.5 ed:
Hermes
The master Thief, Messenger of the Gods
Intermediate God
Symbol: Caduceus (winged staff with two entwining serpents)
Home Plane: Olympus
Alignment: Chaotic good
Portfolio: Travel, trade, theft, gambling, running
Worshipers: Rogues, illusionists, travelers, merchants, athletes
Cleric Alignments: CG, CN, NG
Domains: Chaos, Good, Luck, Travel, Trickery
Favored Weapon: Staff
The deity of travelers, merchants, thieves, gamblers, athletes and elegant speakers, Hermes (her-meez) appears as a handsome youth carrying a white caduceus. He wears a winged helm and sandals. He is perhaps the shrewdest and most cunning of all the Olympian deities; he began his career as a thief before he was a day old by stealing a herd of cattle from Apollo (who retains a distaste for thieves to this day).
Dogma
Hermes values fair play, so much that he often settles disputes among the Olympians. While he values the wit and daring required to accomplish a difficult theft, he frowns upon those who would steal from anyone who cannot afford the loss. He urges his followers to be dependable and prompt, but he despises tediousness and smiles when something unexpected upsets the predictable. Hermes abhors idleness. If one cannot do anything useful, Hermes says, the proper thing to do is travel and have new experiences.
Clergy and Temples
Hermes’s clerics seldom sit still. They’re always busy with something, or out traveling the world. They are found in a wide variety of occupations, ser ving as diplomats, judges, translators, moneychangers, surveyors, and explorers. Wayside shrines to Hermes are common, but temples dedicated to Hermes are fairly rare

/cevah


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In addition to continuing to make public appearances, healing/curing people, possibly working with the restore corpse trick, etc., the activities I am now actively considering (depending on how well they fit into the story and how my DM responds to them as they are floated) are:

1. Establish a temple/shrine, try to train up some Adepts.
2. Make weak but enduring magic items (CLW 1/day, etc.) to help remind people of the gods.
3. Provide Symbols of Healing for the army, ideally with the King’s patronage for spell components. (This is a very low magic setting, and magical healers are very few and far between, so this could actually make a pretty big difference).
4. Recruit local thieves as lookouts for plot-related danger in the parts of the city less well-patrolled by the city guards, possibly also to help steal things from suitable (per Hermes & CG alignment) sources to fund other activities.
5. Divine Source mythic path ability (someday, maybe)
6. Leadership feat (for a cohort to oversee other endeavors, someday, maybe)

Thank you everyone for all the inspiration/advice!


Te'Shen wrote:

...I can't think of anything that's actually divine.

There is always resetting magical traps of create food, cure light wounds, and lesser restoration, but that way lies the Tippy-verse. A first level witch can use a healing hex once a person per day. That has the capacity to be a lot of healing. Is there a way to snag mysteries or hexes from other classes without multiclassing?

The trap idea was one I was going to suggest. It also doesn't have to be cheesy - it could have very specific requirements made. Perhaps you need a hallow, a permanency-and-consecrate spell, as well as the resources to make the trap - effectively creating a new holy site - perhaps centered around an important statue, as mentioned above (great ideas, by the way, and good getting to 3.0 Hermes before I did). If you wanted, it could be something akin to an epic ritual (the act of creating magic items) in which you effectively create three one-use magic items (hallow, permanency, consecrate) which are consumed, but do not grant their typical benefits - instead, allowing you to make a permanent magical trap or two (maybe making something like 1d[tier] effects or something per use - 1d2, in your case).

This is purely house-rules, mind you - I'm suggesting a powerful story element that helps lower the apparent "cheese" factor of resetting traps while enabling you to do what you're going for.

One interesting thing is that, if you manage ascension by ascending, you are, in fact, acting out Hermes' very ideal.

Also, in addition to the divine source mythic power, you might consider beyond morality, which is an extremely potent combination, allowing you to grab any domains you wish.

The community, luck domains, and divine subdomains are all extremely valid and quite appropriate to what you're trying to do here - community is the group you're working on fostering/helping, while luck is something Hermes is all about, and magic (divine) is exactly what you're utilizing to get it done. They also have one thing in common: miracle, which is, in my opinion, pretty important for ascension. Incidentally, this might be a perfect way to explain how you suddenly manifested adept-followers - "it's a miracle"!

And, for now (if you went with community and luck), you'd get bless, true strike, shield other, and aid, as spell-likes, which are really solid choices all-round, I'd say. You'd also get protection from energy (always nice), and the incredibly awesome prayer at your next tier! Importantly as well, with community, at least, you'd get imbue with spell-like ability, which is really important to your whole "have a gift from the divine" thing (and freedom of movement from the luck domain, which is pretty great, too).

Now, regrettably, you don't get any particular benefit from having all of them - at least as far as miracle is concerned, though otherwise they function just as described. Obviously, as well, you can't get the magic (divine) subdomain as the first thing you take. Though, that said, it might make such a thing far more palatable to your GM - you're effectively giving up two or three potential ninth level spells so that you can have access to any eighth level spell, and potentially more powerful effects, up to twice per day at 10th tier (once at ninth tier, and a second time as a heightened version at 10th tier).

All that said, I have no idea how far this game is going, so I don't know if you'd ever get there anyway.

Unfortunately the good and chaos domains don't do too much for you. Right now, you'd just get protection and align weapon, and down the line, they'd provide fairly redundant benefits (though I'd hazard the Good is more useful to you over-all than the Chaos - especially as it seems the world is in chaos right now).

One possible track you could take is by asking the GM if you could have it required to be your domains instead of your alignment's domains.

Which domains does your character have?

Another idea worth noting is that Hermes has a famous staff, Caduceus, that we're all very familiar with, symbolically, at least: it's the entwining serpents that we use for 'medicine' and 'healing' today. It's very reasonable, therefore, that you establish something similar - either as a staff you carry, or as a statue of that staff. In fact, it could be placed in the temples of the other gods, say, at their feet, thus making your god the source, but allowing the others to get glory as well.

Take a hard look at the magic item guideline pricing tables.

For more powerful effects, consider slower timers - the formula is divided by (5/uses per day). If it's usable less than once per day, the cost is lowered even further, as a result, enabling you to establish more potent spells. For example, if you made it a remove disease once per two days, it would be:
[cost for remove disease]/(5/<1/2>)
=[cost for remove disease]/(5*2)
=[cost for remove disease]/10

If you went with once/week, it would be <price/35>.

(An at-will remove disease would be 2k*5*3 or 2k*15, or 30k... thus once every other day would be 3k! Once/week, would be 857.14 gold, or roughly 860 gold!)
[ooc]Technically, the price works out to about 857.142857142857142857..., but that rounds pretty quickly and neatly up to 857.14, going with the lowest denomination in the game, the copper piece.

If you want to make it "command word activated", that lets you have the spell for 1.8k*CL*spell level - that 200 gold per CL per SL adds up fast. The remove disease effect, for example, would be 27k under command word, and only 2,700 for once every two days. And if you want to justify it in-character, have it be something like, "In the name of Athena and Hermes!" or "In the name of Apollo and Hermes!" as the command-word. This makes Hermes a constant reminder to the people as well, but, obviously, gives the "more important god" the "first billing" - empowering your god, but generating worship for them all.

Bear in mind, however, that any effect that has more than one ability on it costs 1.5 times for each "less expensive" ability you have. That extra ".5" can add up really quickly.

Going by the examples already used above, adding, say, a remove blindness/deafness effect would normally cost just as much as the initial remove disease effect... except now it would cost an extra ".5" times more. So, 45k for at will, 4.5k for once per day, and 1.29k for once every two days. You add this amount to the original; generating 75k, 7.5k, or 2.14k respectively.

Alternatively (though this heavily depends on your setting), you could try to planar ally (potentially able to be crafted with an appropriate roll as a one-use or charged item) to summon a number of silvanshee.

While expensive (500g/HD - or 1,000 g) it nets an additional 1d6 healing per day. It will last for about seven days, which is only 7d6 healing, but also nets you six commune spells, and at will prestidigitation while it lasts, making cleaning the entire town absolutely marvelous - say hello to sudden excellent hygiene for everyone! This wonderful little trick also can be funded by the local magistrate, as noted before. Similarly, a lantern archon could be called, although not so much for its healing (it has none) but for its continual flame ability.
All I'm saying: low magic world + city suddenly lit up by permanent magical torches = you are suddenly extremely influential.
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, a harbinger archon would be much better than a silvanshee - it has cure light wounds 3/day for seven days and still nets you the commune effect (though the prestidigitation-based hygiene-improvement is pretty great as well).

The other benefit for summoning so many lawful creatures is that your alignment will, by default, start shifting towards law by way of casting [lawful] spells. This will help give an RP-based reason you might hit neutral good.

Anyway, enough with my yammering. I hope this helps!


Tacticslion wrote:
...and good getting to 3.0 Hermes before I did)....

You're welcome

Tacticslion wrote:

Take a hard look at the magic item guideline pricing tables.

For more powerful effects, consider slower timers - the formula is divided by (5/uses per day). If it's usable less than once per day, the cost is lowered even further, as a result, enabling you to establish more potent spells. For example, if you made it a remove disease once per two days, it would be:
[cost for remove disease]/(5/<1/2>)
=[cost for remove disease]/(5*2)
=[cost for remove disease]/10

If you went with once/week, it would be <price/35>.

(An at-will remove disease would be 2k*5*3 or 2k*15, or 30k... thus once every other day would be 3k! Once/week, would be 857.14 gold, or roughly 860 gold!)
[ooc]Technically, the price works out to about 857.142857142857142857..., but that rounds pretty quickly and neatly up to 857.14, going with the lowest denomination in the game, the copper piece.

If you want to make it "command word activated", that lets you have the spell for 1.8k*CL*spell level - that 200 gold per CL per SL adds up fast. The remove disease effect, for example, would be 27k under command word, and only 2,700 for once every two days. And if you want to justify it in-character, have it be something like, "In the name of Athena and Hermes!" or "In the name of Apollo and Hermes!" as the command-word. This makes Hermes a constant reminder to the people as well, but, obviously, gives the "more important god" the "first billing" - empowering your god, but generating worship for them all.

The guidelines do not say anything about less than 1/day usage, so that is up to the GM. Some items in the book have #/month, so it obviously can exist. In 3.5, you are limited to 1/10 days minimum cost. It could be used less often, but at the same price.

Tacticslion wrote:
Bear in mind, however, that any effect that has more than one ability on it costs 1.5 times for each "less expensive" ability you have. That extra ".5" can add up really quickly.

Nitpick: The 1.5* is for later enchantments, not lesser enchantments. A change from 3.5.

Tacticslion wrote:
The other benefit for summoning so many lawful creatures is that your alignment will, by default, start shifting towards law by way of casting [lawful] spells. This will help give an RP-based reason you might hit neutral good.

Ansibelle may not want to shift, now than she knows her alignment (CG) is the same as her god's. :-)

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
You're welcome

:D

Cevah wrote:
The guidelines do not say anything about less than 1/day usage, so that is up to the GM. Some items in the book have #/month, so it obviously can exist. In 3.5, you are limited to 1/10 days minimum cost. It could be used less often, but at the same price.

Since it gives a formula based on the amount/day, it also gives no limitation to that formula. (The use of "per day" could be considered to imply that the limit is down to 1/day, but the mathematical formula has no such limitation - a portion of a day is still "per day", thus allowing it to be included.)

Given that there are items that have other than per-day limitations, it only makes sense that the formula continues.

All that said, the entirety of the item creation guidelines are at GM discretion (thus "guidelines" rather than "strict rules"), so I kind of presumed it was inherent in the conversation. :)

Just in case it wasn't clear, though: Ansibelle, get all ideas suggested approved by your GM before hand! :D

Tacticslion wrote:
Bear in mind, however, that any effect that has more than one ability on it costs 1.5 times for each "less expensive" ability you have. That extra ".5" can add up really quickly.
Cevah wrote:
Nitpick: The 1.5* is for later enchantments, not lesser enchantments. A change from 3.5.

I was about to thank you profusely for teaching me something, but, I'm afraid, er...

d20 psfrd wrote:
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

^ Copy/Paste.

Hold on a minute, then...

PRD wrote:
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

^ Copy/Paste here, too.

Unfortunately, the Archives of Nethys (awesome site that it is) doesn't have these rules, from what I could find from searching.

Could that have been a misprint in your book?

Tacticslion wrote:
The other benefit for summoning so many lawful creatures is that your alignment will, by default, start shifting towards law by way of casting [lawful] spells. This will help give an RP-based reason you might hit neutral good.
Cevah wrote:
Ansibelle may not want to shift, now than she knows her alignment (CG) is the same as her god's. :-)

Oh, sure! It's entirely possible.

I just kind of thought the entire idea behind shifting alignments in the conversation was to have a domain choice other than the chaos/good domains for Divine Source, with the caution only because she thought Hermes was chaotic neutral; thus the benefit of changing to neutral good (as she noted she was thinking about doing) from chaotic good.

Regardless, it was, as always, only one method of acquiring such effects - it was a side-note instead of the main point (getting divine help).

The biggest hurdle to overcome with such a suggestion, though, is "how does this fit into the Grecian-ish setting?" which summoned creatures in general - and archons in particular - might not do at all.

I do have another question: has your character had any contact with other pantheons? In other words, have you run into, say, the Egyptians, or Norse at all? In the case of the former, silvanshee make a lot of sense (especially as agents of, say, Bast) while in the case of the latter, the lantern archons might make some sense (instead of other "witchlights"). Unfortunately, those aside, I can't really see the creatures I mentioned as being "valid" for the setting in general - it seems too out-of-character. The only ones of that relative power that I can see as valid - paracletus (essences of emotion escaped from Hades), Cassisian (the memory of a deceased noble warrior in its helm; perhaps a boon from Hermes, Nike, or Aphrodite), cacodaemon (minor "pets" of Hecate and/or Hades, or a manifestation of the Styx itself), and maaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyybe (but not really) a doru (some sort of animated severed monster head) - don't really help you much at all, in terms of what you're trying to accomplish. The commune effects are nice, but they don't otherwise help your over-all goal of proving the gods really care (while the Cassisian is okay, and the paracletus isn't horrible, the others are especially bad at this). You might be able to nab a few more if you've come into contact with other pantheons. Otherwise, that might have to be abandoned for flavor reasons.

IF (and only if) your GM is up for re-flavoring things (i.e. making things look very, very different, even if they've the same mechanics otherwise), you could certainly explain the spirits away easily enough - wind spirits from Hermes, or similar, are all very easy to do. But, as always, that's entirely up to the GM, and I would entirely understand a GM saying "no" to that idea.

Oh, yeah! One more thing.

As a way of "sticking it" to the church of Apollo, it would be great if you made magic items they had to say both Apollo's and Hermes' names, together. That's like a win/win for any worshiper of Hermes, as the main reason Apollo hates thievery so much is Hermes' theft (mentioned in Cevah's entries). So that's always fun. It also furthers your goal of getting <the people to believe that> the gods <are> working together. Sort of.
:D


Tacticslion wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Bear in mind, however, that any effect that has more than one ability on it costs 1.5 times for each "less expensive" ability you have. That extra ".5" can add up really quickly.
Cevah wrote:
Nitpick: The 1.5* is for later enchantments, not lesser enchantments. A change from 3.5.

I was about to thank you profusely for teaching me something, but, I'm afraid, er...

d20 psfrd wrote:
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

^ Copy/Paste.

Hold on a minute, then...

PRD wrote:
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

^ Copy/Paste here, too.

Unfortunately, the Archives of Nethys (awesome site that it is) doesn't have these rules, from what I could find from searching.

Could that have been a misprint in your book?

Your PRD quote is from the table. Mine is from the text:

PRD link:
PRD wrote:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

SRD used the table. :-)

Went back and checked 3.5, and it had the same problem. Table did not agree to text.

/cevah

EDIT: Found in the FAQs for UM (after looking in CRB and APG):
FAQ 1 "The text on page 143 is correct."
FAQ 2 "The text on page 153 is correct."
FAQ 3 "The text on page 157 is correct."
It seems text is preferred to table in the FAQs.

EDIT 2: SRD Text sais:

SRD wrote:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.


Tacticslion wrote:

I do have another question: has your character had any contact with other pantheons? In other words, have you run into, say, the Egyptians, or Norse at all? In the case of the former, silvanshee make a lot of sense (especially as agents of, say, Bast) while in the case of the latter, the lantern archons might make some sense (instead of other "witchlights"). Unfortunately, those aside, I can't really see the creatures I mentioned as being "valid" for the setting in general - it seems too out-of-character. The only ones of that relative power that I can see as valid - paracletus (essences of emotion escaped from Hades), Cassisian (the memory of a deceased noble warrior in its helm; perhaps a boon from Hermes, Nike, or Aphrodite), cacodaemon (minor "pets" of Hecate and/or Hades, or a manifestation of the Styx itself), and maaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyybe (but not really) a doru (some sort of animated severed monster head) - don't really help you much at all, in terms of what you're trying to accomplish. The commune effects are nice, but they don't otherwise help your over-all goal of proving the gods really care (while the Cassisian is okay, and the paracletus isn't horrible, the others are especially bad at this). You might be able to nab a few more if you've come into contact with other pantheons. Otherwise, that might have to be abandoned for flavor reasons.

IF (and only if) your GM is up for re-flavoring things (i.e. making things look very, very different, even if they've the same mechanics otherwise), you could certainly explain the spirits away easily enough - wind spirits from Hermes, or similar, are all very easy to do. But, as always, that's entirely up to the GM, and I would entirely understand a GM saying "no" to that idea.

You talking to me? :-)

Well, another character I had was in a Greek campaign. Our main nemesis was the Egyptian pantheon.

3.5 Deities & Demigods:
OLYMPIAN MONSTERS
The following monsters are particularly appropriate for a campaign that uses the Olympian pantheon.
Monster : CR : Notes
Basilisk : 5
Centaur : 3
Chimera : 7
Cockatrice : 3
Dryad : 1
Gorgon : 8
Griffon : 4
Harpy : 4
Hippogriff : 2
Hydra : 4–15 : Any kind or number of heads
Medusa : 7
Minotaur : 4
Nymph : 6
Pegasus : 3
Roc : 9
Satyr : 2 or 4 : Without or with pipes
Sphinx : 5, 7, 8 or 9 : Any kind
Sprite : 1 or 4 : Any kind
Titan : 21
Unicorn : 3
Animals: Boar (CR 2); cat (CR 1/4); dog (CR 1/3); dog, riding (CR 1); donkey (CR 1/6); eagle (CR 1/2); hawk (CR 1/3); horse, all (CR 1–2); lion (CR 3); mule (CR 1); owl (CR 1/4); pony, all (CR 1/4); rat (CR 1/8); snake, all (CR 1/3 to 5).

PHARAONIC MONSTERS
The following monsters are particularly appropriate for a campaign that uses the Pharaonic pantheon.
Monster : CR : Notes
Basilisk : 5
Chaos beast : 7 : Native to the Twelve Hours of Night
Dire bat : 2
Dire bear : 7
Dire lion : 5
Dire wolf : 3 : Use these statistics for a dire hyena
Dragonne : 7
Ghast : 3
Ghoul : 1
Giant beetle : 1/3 to 4 : Any kind
Giant praying mantis : 2
Giant wasp : 3
Golem, stone : 11
Grick : 3
Howler : 3 : Often found serving minions of Set; native to the Twelve Hours of Night
Lamia : 6
Lammasu : 8
Lich : +2 : Wrapped in linen and lurking in pyramid tombs, often mistaken for mummies
Lillend : 7 : Native to the Offering Fields
Mohrg : 8
Monstrous scorpions : 1/4 to 11 : Any size
Mummy : 3
Naga : 7–10 : Any kind
Night hag : 9 : Native to the Twelve Hours of Night
Roc : 9
Skeleton : 1/6 to 9 : Any size
Sphinx : 5, 7, 8 or 9 : Any kind
Wight : 3
Yeth hound : 3 : Native to the Twelve Hours of Night
Yuan-ti : 5 or 7 : Any kind
Zombie : 1/6 to 12 : Any size
Animals: baboon (CR 1/2); bat (CR 1/10); bear, brown (CR 4); bison (wildebeest) (CR 2); camel (CR 1); cat (CR 1/4); cheetah (CR 2); crocodile (CR 2); crocodile, giant (CR 4); dog (CR 1/3); donkey (CR 1/6); eagle (vulture) (CR 1/2); elephant (CR 8); hawk (CR 1/3); leopard (CR 2); lion (CR 3); lizard (CR 1/6); lizard, giant (CR 2); rat (CR 1/8); rhinoceros (CR 4); snake, all (CR 1/3 to 5); toad (CR 1/10)

ASGARDIAN MONSTERS
The following monsters are particularly appropriate for a campaign that uses the Asgardian pantheon.
Monster CR Notes
Dire ape : 3 : A “snow ape” version (same stats)
Dwarf, deep : 1/2 : Typical Norse dwarf
Dwarf, duergar : 1 : Typical evil Norse dwarf
Elemental, air : 1 to 11 : Often has a cold attack
Elemental, fire : 1 to 11 : Often more intelligent than standard
Elf, high : 1/2
Elf, drow : 1 : Often called svartalf
Frost worm : 12
Gnome, svirfneblin : 1 : Often indistinguishable from dwarves
Giant : 7 to 13 : Mostly fire and frost
Lycanthrope, : 5 : Often with warrior or werebear barbarian levels
Mephit, fire : 3
Mephit, ice : 3
Mephit, magma : 3
Skeleton : 1/6 to 9 : Any size
Sprite, nixie : 1 : Often chaotic
Wight : 3 : Servant/creature of Hel
Winter wolf : 5
Worg : 2
Zombie : 1/6 to 12 : Any size
Animals: Bear, polar (CR 4); dog (CR 1/3); dog, riding (CR 1); raven (sometimes celestial) (CR 1/8); snake, giant constrictor (sometimes fiendish at +1 CR) (CR 5); whale, orca (CR 5); wolf (CR 1).

In later adventures with that character, a tour of the planes occurred, along with meeting up with a number of pantheons and the other inhabitants.

That is why I suggested I could help with Greek ideas.

/cevah


Table v. Text: ah! Thanks, then, a lot! I do appreciate it!

And otherwise, sorry I was talking to Ansibelle, though I didn't clearly switch between you.

Everything after (and including),

Quote:
The biggest hurdle to overcome with such a suggestion, though, is "how does this fit into the Grecian-ish setting?" which summoned creatures in general - and archons in particular - might not do at all.

... was to Ansibelle.

Although, actually, I am creating (very slowly) a Grecian campaign (with a follow-up Roman campaign) in which the primary antagonist,

Mah players, stay out:
... is Set attempting to gather power in the Grecian and Norse worlds, though the players don't know this yet. Interesting how that's a thing it seems both your GM and mine came up with independently. I'm sure I've not seen your GM or played that game before.

Your lists are fairly similar to my own, with a few differences. Neat!


Tacticslion wrote:
Table v. Text: ah! Thanks, then, a lot! I do appreciate it!

You're welcome

Tacticslion wrote:
And otherwise, sorry I was talking to Ansibelle, though I didn't clearly switch between you.

Thought so, but I had something to add... :-)

Tacticslion wrote:
Although, actually, I am creating (very slowly) a Grecian campaign (with a follow-up Roman campaign) in which the primary antagonist,

I got hard copy on Roman stuff. From 2nd Ed Hollow world setting.

Tacticslion wrote:
Your lists are fairly similar to my own, with a few differences. Neat!

I think there is a 2nd Ed list from Planescape. Can't find my PDFs, but I got hard copy.

If YOU need help, I got resources and ideas.

/cevah


Sweet!

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