Goblin Squad Member
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...The current stage of the escalation describes what is happening at that point in the event. For example, the Bonedancer goblin invasion begins with scouting parties of goblins searching for good places to attack. When players kill or chase off enough of the goblin scouts, the Bonedancers send stronger parties of wolf-handlers to find out what's been happening to their scouts. In the face of growing opposition, the Bonedancer shamans decide to reinforce their warriors by robbing the local graveyards and animating the dead. Each stage generates its own specific quests and missions for PCs who want to defeat the threat—or, in some cases, egg it on.
As I've mentioned previously the Viridian Circle want to be skilled at advancing escalation cycles (EC). This raises a number of questions:
- How would an EC cycle be advanced
- If we help an escalation cycle to advance, do we becomes allies of the EC and thus immune to its effects
- How can you advance an EC, since it is initially hostile to everyone
- Would it be a viable strategy to encourage EC's to grow around you to provide a dangerous buffer zone around your settlement.
My preference would be to allow characters to go to a specific spot on the monster hex (possibly via stealth), where we can attempt diplomatic relations with the monsters/creatures. If our diplomacy checks are favorable we become non-hostile in the eyes of the monsters and we will be given a series of quests to enable the monster hex to grow rapidly.
If we are successful in a number of these quests then it would be nice if we could declare a settlement as an ally to the monsters and a specific settlement as a preferred enemy. This could tailor what direction the EC heads in (i.e. towards the enemy settlement). Hexes belonging to the allied settlement would be left alone by the monsters, which could eventually completely surround the settlement and provide a handy buffer zone. If you assist a monster hex to grow to a certain size, then perhaps you gain a special monster related artifact to place in your settlement.
Perhaps by allying with monster hexes your settlement could gain access to special equipment, skills, mounts or defensive properties.
A downside to allying with a monster hex is they require regular tribute to continue to leave you alone, and other settlements could discover that you've been assisting them during there own fight against the monsters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good point for discussion Ravening.
I really like the idea of aiding escalations, as it seems like one of those things which could really set PFO apart from competition (not only dynamic mob spawns, but ones which could even switch hostility states based on player action). Escalations seem like another mechanic ripe with potential for nuance and interesting additions; hopefully they can get their fair share of development time while competing with everything else :).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Going by that train of thought, there could then be "good guy monster" escalations. A camp of Crusaders heading north, stop and get gently convinced that the no good "evil" settlement is a front for demons from the world wound...
Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if evil escalation cycles crop up around good settlements and vice versa. This would allow a lawful good settlement to help an escalation cycle of heroic knights that is near that evil settlement.
I was also thinking about the idea of paying tribute to protect yourself from an EC. This could be done by smaller settlements that don't have the manpower to defeat it. An element of danger would be added if the tribute needs to be delivered to the monster hex. No don't rival settlements would find a baggage train full of this tribute a tempting target, even if its nothing fancy and common resources useful for settlements. Stop enough of the tribute getting through and a settlement could find themselves in a very sticky position.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this could also be part of the PvP aspect or a contract-offer mechanism (of course added after Early Enrollment).
Think of it this way: in the above evil Bonedancer example, once a certain amount of good PC resistance is achieved, then randomly (not every time) a "call-to-arms contract" could be spawned to try to recruit evil-aligned PCs to help promote and perform necromantic quests to strengthen the goblin horde or weaken opposing good PCs with regional/hex effects. Possibly even paying the assisting PCs in resources, specialized training, or access to restricted lands/allies.
Many cool examples could be created to promote alignment good/evil axis conflict or banditry vs settlement (chaos/law). Regarding increasing your escalations to prevent/reduce attacks, it could/should backfire if not monitored closely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was also thinking about the idea of paying tribute to protect yourself from an EC. This could be done by smaller settlements that don't have the manpower to defeat it.
I like that - a shakedown done at settlement level by an escalation. "You'll be our next target unless you deliver X within two days. If you do that, we'll target someone else."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also imagine if two rival settlements approached the same escalation cycle to befriend them and put them on to the other party. You could have a situation when the rival settlements enter into a bidding war, or there could be a race to see what settlement accomplishes the EC quests first.
All of this could be further complicated by the fact that not all EC monsters will keep their word of honour. You could end up buying the friendship of a chaotic evil EC only to have it turn on you. Perhaps all of this could modified by how closely the alignment of the settlement/individual matches the alignment of the EC, adjusted by skills you've acquired in diplomacy and the appropriate knowledge sub-skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...The current stage of the escalation describes what is happening at that point in the event. For example, the Bonedancer goblin invasion begins with scouting parties of goblins searching for good places to attack. When players kill or chase off enough of the goblin scouts, the Bonedancers send stronger parties of wolf-handlers to find out what's been happening to their scouts. In the face of growing opposition, the Bonedancer shamans decide to reinforce their warriors by robbing the local graveyards and animating the dead. Each stage generates its own specific quests and missions for PCs who want to defeat the threat—or, in some cases, egg it on.As I've mentioned previously the Viridian Circle want to be skilled at advancing escalation cycles (EC). This raises a number of questions:
- How would an EC cycle be advanced
- If we help an escalation cycle to advance, do we becomes allies of the EC and thus immune to its effects
- How can you advance an EC, since it is initially hostile to everyone
- Would it be a viable strategy to encourage EC's to grow around you to provide a dangerous buffer zone around your settlement.
My preference would be to allow characters to go to a specific spot on the monster hex (possibly via stealth), where we can attempt diplomatic relations with the monsters/creatures. If our diplomacy checks are favorable we become non-hostile in the eyes of the monsters and we will be given a series of quests to enable the monster hex to grow rapidly.
If we are successful in a number of these quests then it would be nice if we could declare a settlement as an ally to the monsters and a specific settlement as a preferred enemy. This could tailor what direction the EC heads in (i.e. towards the enemy settlement). Hexes belonging to the allied settlement would be left alone by the monsters, which could eventually completely...
You have some very provocative ideas here, quite interesting, Ravening!
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Goblin Squad Member
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As an esteemed member of the Viridian Circle I also share Ravening's interest in this matter.
As an aside
Sins of a Solar Empire has a "Bounty" system for the NPC pirate factions, so this "bidding war" idea is not far-fetched at all. In fact, I feel this should be a thing.
OOC/tangernt: Beware thou who pay attention, for though you might pay the Danegeld, you shalt never be rid of the Danes...
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Goblin Squad Member
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can be crowdfordge this now?
IMHO this is one of the coolest ideas so far
+wathever it takes to make it a reality
I would think that getting it balanced now is a bigger trick than later allowing players to unbalance it.
My understanding is escalation is what happens if players do NOT interfere with "monsters" in a hex. I could see enhancing escalation as part of settlement PvP, but that is also closer to OE.
Yes, advocate for wanting this, but we have not yet got astride the bicycle for the first time. hand stands on the handle bars is for later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the AI needs be too advanced if it is just a "friend or foe" flag and a set of simple "answers" you choose during conversation (like in KOTOR) that are based off of your skill level. Answer the questions right with a high enough skill level and you become "neutral"(Less hostile) answer a few more and you become "friend" (assuming ECs are all evil/hostile as planned currently), fail enough times/by bad enough "roll" (way too low skill level) you become perma-hostile.
Trading and more complex systems will, of course, need a more advanced AI but I think that basic system shouldn't be too hard (not to say it won't be difficult) to do.
The problem is storing all the server info it generates on who is friend and who is foe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is an old blog "When the Demon is at Your Door" discussing some of thee issues. I had an entry in that post that presented some ideas for escalations with an alignment that would allow them to be allied with the appropriately aligned group. Here's the link.
The aligned escalations could be implemented later in development after settlements and Kingdoms have had a chance to form naturally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am sure they are in the works for later.
The reason GW hasn't said anything is that it is so far in the future and it has so little work done, that anything they say will be pure personal conjecture and pointless debate at this point which distracts for the debates currently going about current issues that are currently being worked upon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Goblinworks wants to point us in a certain direction, they will let us know, surely.
Indeed, they did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with discussing SAD; I was pointing out that whether or not they're developing it currently shouldn't be the determining factor for whether or not we talk about it.
I agree. Obviously this topic isn't as sexy (or heated) as SAD, but I still think it's worth crowdforging.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think these ideas are cool. I just want to set expectations that for Early Enrollment, the Escalation cycles are all about stopping them, not aiding them. Anything done beyond that will have to be Crowdforged after Open Enrollment begins.
I'm a bit confused here:
-does the EC evolve when attacked or when left alone?
-can the EC actually be stopped/bypassed, or is it a cycle where you can you only progress faster or slower to the next stage?
-is the purpose of fighting EC to get boss loot or to stop a real threat to the players in the area?
-which is worst: ignoring the EC initially or abandoning the fight when the monsters become too tough?
According to the Bonedancer goblin EC description, the goblins up their game in response to players attacking them. That sounds a lot like "if you hack down these goblins and the next ones, we will spawn a boss for you to take down". What then is the difference between fighting and 'egging on' an EC?
But in the very early discussions , there were also speculations about unexplored monster hexes growing bigs and strong and spreading across the land if nobody tried to tame it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding is that escalations 'evolve' if they are left alone too long or are inadequately 'thinned' or eliminated by player activity. Unchallenged they grow in population and, when that population reaches some gateway value it can spawn higher tier mobs. Which then grow. Further it is my belief that they will start to wander, or at least warbands from the escalation sites will begin to wander and even threaten the nearby settlements or their POI.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only time I've seen it proposed that goblin escalations 'up their game' when attacked was when we were speculating that maybe when a player is killed by a mob that mob, if suitable in nature (a goblin not a wolf) might take up the arms of the fallen player, and even become more skilled with experience. But that was just our speculation IIRC.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The current design for Early Enrollment is that the more work the characters do against the escalation, the tougher it becomes until it completes and ends.
Later in Early Enrollment the plan is that escalations if not addressed will change in ways other than the way they change if the characters are making progress toward completion. Objectively, conditions in the hex should become increasingly painful.
After we achieve that platform, we can Crowdforge more of the fractal space within this design space.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of an escalation getting stronger when you attack it is certainly intriguing.
The way I predict we will see a basic escalation setup is like this: killing the mobs increases the difficulty of the mobs (up until the boss spawns and the escalation is defeated) while leaving it alone would allow it to increase the quantity of mobs that make up the escalation. When the quantity reaches some threshold, the escalation is put into "expand" mode, sending out war parties into nearby hexes and eventually taking over adjacent hexes if still not dealt with. The large quantity of the escalation is divided in half and effectively becomes two separate escalations who then go back to the top and eventually start expanding again. Maybe enough adjacent, active escalations of the same type cause a "raid boss" style enemy to appear.
Not sure how the relationship between expanding and "levelling up" the mobs would work; maybe the war parties don't count towards the population total for determining whether the next hardest mob starts spawning. Or maybe the two are mutually exclusive, and if you are levelling an escalation it can't also be expanding.
There would be a lot of nuance and intriguing player decision making involved in such a model. If you have an escalation near you, you could choose from many different decisions:
And of course if the escalation is growing nearby someone else's settlement, there are many ways you can manipulate that to your advantage as well. Advance the escalation during their "down time" and defend it long enough for it to get out of control, steal the loot from the raid boss for yourself, constantly farm it yourself until they pay you a ransom... Lots of possibilities for some awesome interactions here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a nice final state would be that fighting an escalation changes it so that it becomes harder to fight, and ignoring it resulted in changes that made it harder to ignore.
That's kind of what I said in the first paragraph of my post; killing it makes it harder to kill, and leaving it alone causes it to swell in size and eventaully roam around and expand. Thus the longer you leave it alone, the bigger and more annoying it gets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attacking NPCs in a first thought could incite them to attack later, but should take some time to them to recompose. If you keep attacking them it should prevent their increase in power.
However, in a second thought, the goblins tribe your settlement always attack could call for reinforcements from another stronger tribe, and attack you anyway and with stronger forces.
So the idea of escalation, even if you keep attacking npc groups is not absurd. IMO both attack or let them unbottered sooner or later will result in hostile activity from them.
They are the bad guys so attacking is in their nature, and they will find a way to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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oh I must have missunderstood Ryan's post then
I figured that he meant that early in EE they will grow in power when attacked most likely to to the smaller amount of players and players still starting out so that the wilderness hexes way out there that would take time to get to and explore wouldnt be too powerful for player expansion when they finally got that far out. Then later in EE when players are more or less spread out through the world and a bit more seasoned and organised the EC would switch to becoming more powerful when left alone.
The EC thing just kinda got me a lil confused when you talked about both happening at once
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Goblin Squad Member
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People will have "explored" every hex in Early Enrollment about an hour after the server goes live.
Considering that "Exploration" is one of the major pillars of PFO, this does not bode well for it and or potentially the other pillars as well.
Perhaps what you could do is add a dozen or more hidden objectives within every hex and that hex is not "explored" until all objectives have been discovered.
This could also lead to greater human interaction since someone who has already unlocked a particular hex could then become a guide for it. The knowledge could be given away freely or the guide service could be sold.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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It will take considerably longer for any one character to explore all the space. But there will be hundreds, maybe thousands of people on the server immediately, and they'll visit every inch of the territory quickly. There will be player characters virtually everywhere almost immediately.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wurm Online had unique monsters (forest giant, cyclops, dragons) that were highly sought after for trophies and titles. Whenever a new server was opened, players would typically find the uniques within a day or two and in some cases kill them outright.
I think uniqueness and exploration is hard to build into MMOs; the mass of players quickly will overcome most obstacles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People will have "explored" every hex in Early Enrollment about an hour after the server goes live.Considering that "Exploration" is one of the major pillars of PFO, this does not bode well for it and or potentially the other pillars as well.
Perhaps what you could do is add a dozen or more hidden objectives within every hex and that hex is not "explored" until all objectives have been discovered.
This could also lead to greater human interaction since someone who has already unlocked a particular hex could then become a guide for it. The knowledge could be given away freely or the guide service could be sold.
Maybe "Exploration" is meant to include the roles, in game politics, crafting/building strategies, etc... as well as terrain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It will take considerably longer for any one character to explore all the space. But there will be hundreds, maybe thousands of people on the server immediately, and they'll visit every inch of the territory quickly. There will be player characters virtually everywhere almost immediately.
Make sure to include that roaming band of CE barbarians as an escalation on day one to think out those explorers running around the wilderness with no gear and inferior arms/armor.
Always exciting to make the population face a major threat as soon as they start the game also :)