Help Building Human Fighter Archer for PFS

[Rapanuii]

Back when I first saw third edition, I swore an oath to never invest in ride, or ever do mounted combat if I could help it. I have yet to break this oath, as well as any of my friends.I understand the power, but I hate the flavor.

[Mystically Inclined]

So there are three four ways to get items in Pathfinder.

1. You can use 1 prestige to buy anything worth 325 (I think that's the number) and 2 prestige to buy anything worth 750 (I'm sure of). This comes in handy, because there are a lot of very useful level 1 wands that are 750, and even more useful level 3 potions that work out to 750. You can also buy a masterwork version of any weapon that costs up to 25 gold for 1 prestige, and any masterwork weapon for 2 prestige.

2. You can buy any item that is always available. This works out to- anything mundane (non-magical), and any +1 magic weapon... including magical weapons made of special materials. Want to buy that steel +2 sword? 8000 gold + cost of masterwork sword, and it must be bought through fame. Want to buy that +1 adamantine sword? 3000 (adamantine) + 2000 (+1) + 300 (masterwork) + cost of sword... but available for purchase at any time.

3. You can buy anything on a chronicle sheet assigned to you that hasn't been crossed out, regardless of fame score.

4. For anything else, you can buy anything allowed by your fame score.

You can also upgrade your magical gear. Here's a link to that explanation.

[Rapanuii]

Chronicle sheet can be accessed from past games, or is that option only viable until you start your next?

[LazarX]

Rapanuii wrote:

Chronicle sheet can be accessed from past games, or is that option only viable until you start your next?

The chronicle essentially adds the item to your personal "Always Available" list. If the item has a "Limit 1" notation on it, it can only be bought once.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I would actually recommend a lore warden build for this archer. I built a fighter archer and just went with straight fighter, and I somewhat regret it now. Unfortunately, mine is level 4 already so I can't really change much of anything about him. I'd go:

Human Fighter (lore warden) 12
Str: 16
Dex: 16 (+2 human, +2 levels, +4 item)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master, Iron Will, Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes

At level 12, this will give you an attack bonus, when using Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, of:
BAB: 12
Dex: 7
Weapon Focus: 1
Gr Weapon Focus: 1
Rapid Shot: -2
Deadly Aim: -4
Point Blank Shot: 1
Weapon enhancement: 2 (at least)
Haste: 1 (you'll almost always have this up)
Weapon Training: +3 (with gloves)
Total: +22

And damage bonuses of:
Str: 3
Weapon enhancement: 2 (at least)
Point Blank Shot: 1
Deadly Aim: 8
Weapon Spec: 2
Gr Weapon Spec: 2
Weapon Training: +3 (with gloveS)

This gives you an attack sequence, with haste up, of:

+22/+22/+22/+17/+12 (1d8+21/x3)

And the first +22 fires 2 arrows which each do 1d8+21 damage.

You also get 5 skill points per level, 6 if you spend your favored class bonus on a skill point.

I also recommend you invest in a wand of gravity bow and a cracked purple prism ioun stone. You can have somebody in your party cast gravity bow into the ioun stone while out of combat and then you can cast it on yourself to increase your bow damage from 1d8 to 2d6.

[Rapanuii]

I don't plan to use cmb, but this looks great for a trip fighter build. I never looked into this lore master, and I don't really understand why I would want it for this build. Weapon master seems to be the way to go.

[Crosswind]

Hey, OP, don't know if you care, but a while ago I statted out what I _believe_ was a DPS per Level Optimal Human Fighter Archer to get a standardized DPS. I included equipment buys and in what order to do everything.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q0bx?Average-DPR#15

He's glass cannony as @#$% tho'.

-Cross

[Rapanuii]

Cross, I'm definitely interested in all ideas, especially things carefully optimized, but your link isn't working for me.

[Crosswind]

Weird! It totally works for me. Hrm. Here it is, copied and pasted. the full thread is here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q0bx?Average-DPR. It basically asks "Is there an average DPR for a reasonably optimized character", so I built an archer, because their DPR is super predictable.

CAVEAT: I am going to be lazy about some stuff, like what I can retrain/alternate build paths. This is an approximation. I'm also not buying boots of haste. Haste makes all damage crazy. =)

I'd compare to a fighter-archer's full attack. There are some tricks you can probably use. Let's try this:

Dual-Talented Human Archer, 20 point buy

16+2/18+2/14/7/7/7

1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Rapid Shot
3: Deadly Aim
4: WF: Longbow
5: WS: Longbow
6: Manyshot
7: ???
8: Greater Weapon Focus, Retrain the feat at (7) to get Improved Critical: Longbow
9: ??
10: Clustered Shots
11: ??
12: Greater Weapon Spec: Longbow

For stuff to buy:
1: Longbow
2: +4 Strength Composite Longbow ~500
3: Bow+1 ~2500
4: Bow+1, +2 Dex belt ~6500
5: Bow+1, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim ~ 10500
6: Bow+2, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim ~16500
7: Bow+2, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim ~16500
8: Bow+2, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~31k
9: Bow+3, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~41k
10: Bow+4, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~54k
11: Bow+5, +4 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~85k
12: Bow+5, +4 Dex Belt, Greater Bracers of Archery, Gloves of Dueling, ~106k

We're always going to rapid shot + full deadly aim, so our AB is going to be something like:

6 5 6 8 11 13 14 18 21 23 26 27

and our damage is going to be something like:

8.5000 8.5000 11.5000 13.5000 16.5000 17.5000 17.5000 21.5000 23.5000 24.5000 25.5000 31.5000

and monster AC is something like

15 15 16 16 18 20 19 21 22 23 26 26

So, our dpr comes out to:

1: 5.8650
2: 10.7525
3: 14.5475
4: 21.3900
5: 30.0300
6: 58.0125
7: 67.1125
8: 93.6325
9: 114.5625
10: 125.8075
11: 149.1750
12: 194.5125

SOME MORE CAVEATS:

1.) That was a pain in the @#$%!
2.) Obviously I violate some of the DPR olympics threads about not having crappy AC and such. This is a character exclusively for damage
3.) I probably violate some basic pathfinder rules about spending more than half my cash on a single item.

That said, these numbers are probably not hugely far off.

-Cross

[Rapanuii]

@Cross, I will look at this more thoroughly, but I notice that Bracers of Falcons Aim is included, and it seems redudant to have Improved Critical frat for the Long bow when the item is giving you a non-stackable 19-20 crit range. Also, for PFS, I've heard they're not legal, which I hope that's incorrect, because I had already planned on getting these items.

Also, regardless of PFS, the gloves help boost weapon training, and I have in the past with making a long bow fighter avoided Archer mainly because they don't qualify for Weapon Training. Would in Expert Archer be counted as Weapon Training for the purposes of this item? It was obviously made for fighters, and it seems someone goofed when titling this ability in relation to this item existing, you know.

PS
My smart phone couldn't accept the link for some reason, but my computer allows it to work. Thanks for the copy and paste anyways for faster reference.

[Crosswind]

...boy, do I not remember the crit range changing on aspect of the falcon. erk.

I'm 99.99% I have read errata that gloves of dueling were supposed to apply to all weapon trainingesque features, so I think Expert Archer would apply.

I am not a PFS player myself (I thiiink falcon's aim are outlawed because they are ooobviously a bit overpowered).

I think the primary insights of the above are:
Precise Shot provides more DPR than rapid shot if you have to choose.
You will have more feats than you know what to do with as a fighter.
Gloves of dueling are the most cost-efficient mid-level item to up archery damage efficacy in the game.

And a general idea of what DPR you can expect to do.

-Cross

[Bigdaddyjug]

Bracers of Falcon's Aim are most certainly illegal in PFS because they are grossly underpriced, like 12,000g underpriced.

The reason you might go for a Lore Warden instead of a Weapon Master is because you want a more well-rounded character. A Lore Warden gets 2 extra skill ranks per level and gets ALL knowledge skills as class skills. Assuming you used the build I laid out and you put your favored class bonus into skills, you could spend half your skill ranks on knowledges and have 6 ranks in each of the monster identifying knowledges by level 12. This would still leave you 36 skill ranks at level 12 to put in whatever else you need.

That doesn't sound like a big deal, but having an extra character who can make a knowledge check to identify monster weaknesses can be the difference between living and dieing.

Also, the Gloves of Dueling do in fact work with the Expert Archer class feature. There was a recent FAQ about it, but I'll be damned if I can find it now.

[Imbicatus]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Bracers of Falcon's Aim are most certainly illegal in PFS because they are grossly underpriced, like 12,000g underpriced.

True, but a wand of Aspect of the Falcon is legal and only costs 2 PP. It takes more work to benefit from it, but it's cheaper and gives you all of the benefits.

[Rapanuii]

I have a home game Longbow Fighter that uses Weapon Master (Level 3 weapon training <3 ), but Archer I will have to consider especially with how useful the disarm/trip could be even though there is a -4 penalty, but the payoff is saving a feat instead of grabbing Point Blank Master. Anyone have any insight on how useful that ability is at all? Also, I assume using that ability doesn't let you cause damage (weird to think of a bullrush arrow, and not dealing any damage).

Most of my gaming career in d&d and PF, I could never get into investing in wands, scrolls, potions etc. because I rather use my money on things that will work all the time, and never go away (at least they'll come back if their once a day or something). I rather be more useful to my team by killing the enemy fast with items that help me accomplish that at all times, than buying potions/wands... I also figure someone else perhaps has a wand of something on them, and if they want to buff me up, then they can go ahead and do that.

I don't think a 2d6 over 1d8 is worth spending the money on a gravity bow wand, and I rather invest that into giving my weapon a constant flat bonus to damage instead of rolling for a possible better maximum.

Are there any legal items that give constant aspect of the Falcon other than those bracers? Archery Bracers last I recall were God awfully priced, and I don't think I would ever bother to purchase them ever.

I believe the extra feat would be more beneficial than taking the extra +2 to an ability score, but that could just be the feat fiend in me that can't get enough feats. I definitely overlooked feat retraining, so I'm really glad to see that mentioned for me to get some ideas.

[Crosswind]

Re: Feat > Ability Score.

It ain't, sadly. Not for a fighter.

You're up to your neck in feats. Consider: At a minimum, +2 dex gives you +1 to all attacks (obviously much better than a feat). At a minimum, +2 Strength gives you +1 to all damage (...not necessarily better than a feat, but very close.)

You will find a lot of wand advocates on these boards. The usefulness of wands is 100% dictated by whether or not you frequently have enough time to buff before combat in your session. If you do, wands are amazing. If you do not, wands are crap.

I'm not a PFS player, but I'm guessing (because a lot of guys are), that you can frequently buff before combat.

-Cross

[Mystically Inclined]

Not always, but enough to be worthwhile.

Playing PFS tends to turn you into a wand advocate simply because the prestige system makes aquiring them so easy. It's less of a deal for fighters or a non-magic/non-UMD class, but everyone tends to pick up at least a few wands that are useful for their character. Usually there's at least someone with UMD around, so even fighters pick up a small stack of useful buffs. Once you collect 16 PP (the number needed for an emergency raise dead) prestige begins to feel a bit like free money.

Then again, most of my characters are either casters, partial casters, or have UMD. I'm biased. It's hard not to be after my first character found wands so incredibly useful.

[Rapanuii]

I don't want to divert this thread that's all about helping me, but I do have a debate for feats over ability points, but it's completely conditional about what you're going for obviously.

STR you get a bonus to your melee attack and damage (Two Handed/Power Attack for better results), certain skills, CMB/CMD, ability to carry stuff and basic STR checks. When we add this to a Longbow Fighter, you're generally going in for the damage benefits, which is what we're talking about.

So, the feats offer versatility and all sorts of benefits to do specific things, which we all know. So we have feats that will make us better at doing longbow things when we take these feats each time we take one, but yes, eventually at higher levels the ability score increase will look plenty great compared to the feat you had at lower level, but at lower level the feats mean a lot more.

I feel that the general chance to hit with the inclusion of all given situations where my feats can help me do things outweighs the overall damage increase. One damage on a standard action, and I admit one damage on each attack while considering many shot and rapid shot does add up to some great stuff, but obviously the latter attacks are less likely to hit enemies.

Does it do more damage per turn? Obviously yes, but you're ultimately going to suffer in my opinion with the longbow archer at least until like level 12 or something when feats specific to make that build kinda go into the take anything territory. I personally rather have a stronger overall character, but that's subjective too. I admit that I didn't think to take the alt race feature to get my strength up for max DPR, so thanks for showing me.

[Rapanuii]

I have to admit that I have never used wands, and my opinions on them come from lack of personal experience. I just hear people always fighting for people to use consumable items in their game, and as a guy who plays human fighters, I just see that money going into the toilet. Other classes I suppose don't need to use all their cash for tons of items when they have other options, where the fighter is just a guy who only works well in combat to hit things with... things.

[Mystically Inclined]

Well the other thing is that in PFS, level 12 is the end goal. Wands will last a good portion into that, if not all 12 levels. That's like having unlimited uses anytime you really need something.

[Rapanuii]

I have read around the boards that people said that the level cap was level 18. Anyways, what happens when you reach max level?

[Gwen Smith]

Rapanuii wrote:

I feel that the general chance to hit with the inclusion of all given situations where my feats can help me do things outweighs the overall damage increase. One damage on a standard action, and I admit one damage on each attack while considering many shot and rapid shot does add up to some great stuff, but obviously the latter attacks are less likely to hit enemies.

Does it do more damage per turn? Obviously yes, but you're ultimately going to suffer in my opinion with the longbow archer at least until like level 12 or something when feats specific to make that build kinda go into the take anything territory. I personally rather have a stronger overall character, but that's subjective too. I admit that I didn't think to take the alt race feature to get my strength up for max DPR, so thanks for showing me.

If you want to go insane with permutations and possibilities, I've put a Damage Calculator in the PFS GM Shared Prep folder:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwm5JbgYk73FMHUzU3pxanhzbFU

It currently pulls AC and HP from the "Average Monster Stats" in the PRD (based on APL+1), and you can have up to 10 attacks in a single sequence (for rapid shot, manyshot, and up to 3 iterative attacks). You can add Deadly Aim, adjust for concealment and cover, mirror images... (The link is to a ZIP file with two files in it. The Excel file is the calculator, and the Word document has all the instructions and formulas, and it even explains the math behind the formulas I used, if you care.)

As far as stuff to buy:
For a player running an archer character, I highly recommend picking up the Elves of Golarion book. It contains a nice assortment of trick arrows so you can really "Hawkeye" it up if you want to.

I have a couple of Zen Archers in different games. My "standard" arrows are cold iron durable arrows, with different weapon blanches as soon as I can afford them. My usual assortment is
20 cold iron durable, plain
10 cold iron durable, blanched with silver
10 cold iron durable, blanched with adamantine
10 cold iron durable, blanched with ghost salt
20 blunt arrows (not durable)
20 flight arrows (not durable)

If I run out of the cold iron durable, I'll start firing the silver blanched ones (cheapest weapon blanch). If I run out of those, I'll switch to the blunt next. I have only had to dip into the silver ones in one or two combats, and I'm doing 2-4 shots a round.

I keep the blunt arrows on hand for fighting skeletons and doing non-lethal damage. I keep the flight arrows around just in case I need the extra range, but it hasn't happened yet.

I'll also usually carry
5 whistling arrows
5 thistle arrows
2 smoke arrows
2 tanglefoot arrows
2 grappling hook arrows
(The trip arrows aren't legal in PFS, or I would probably carry a couple of those, too)

I keep the thistle arrows to target spell casters: they do continuing damage, so it requires a concentration check until the caster spends an action to pull the thing out. (Granted, it's not much damage, but anytime I can force the GM to drop a die, I have a chance of getting lucky.) :-)

Good luck, and welcome to PFS!

[Chris O'Reilly]

Nothing happens when you reach max level. 12 is considered to be when your character retires as the only way to advance your character used to be a special set of scenarios. Now with modules there are numerous ways to get to and above 12. That said barring an extremely abnormal area even reaching 12 will be uncommon as lower level play dominates. In our area of 300 plus members something like 20 people have 12s or higher, half of them having been playing since season zero.

Before you buy anything or plan a character around certain feats or whatnot triple check to make sure everything is legal. You must own and be able to present a copy of any resource you use in the event an question arises.

Those experienced with society play will usually be the ones telling you to get skill points. Your character is not just some mercenary, you are a member of a society dedicated to obtaining and preserving knowledge and relics. Yes, scenarios will have combat and often lots of it, but they will also be based around the idea that you have created a character who would reasonably belong in such a society.

Diversifying your character is also recommended as gms are supposed to limit players dominating the play experience. That is already an appreciable reality with most archers in pfs. I don't know your area but you might find over optimizing for combat to be counterproductive.

[Rapanuii]

Being optimized to preform your expected duty as the roll of fighter seems extremely inappropriate, and I feel the shortcomings of the class are well known and understood. My failure to preform results in other players suffering, just like I will if they don't preform theirs. Fighter outside of combat isn't too useful , which is upsetting, but that's reality. I see that surviving combat allows myself and others to get to the story, and if combat can be avoided with their social skills and stuff, then all the better.

I'd love if paizo fixed the fighter, but that's not happening. I just hope the slayer and brawler archetypes work out

[Mystically Inclined]

Chris put it much better than I could. 12 is considered the usual retirement, with missions after that being called "seeker territory" as you get the title of Seeker at that point. Technically, it's possible to play up to level 18 (with one path to 20 if you set out to do it from level 1) but unless you're playing in a dedicated group higher tier games become much more defficult to organize.