I've only seen a paladin and a fighter. Both are powerful, for this campaign it really feels that smite evil is too powerful. But I think that a ranger would really love this too. I've joked that it would be worth it for any and every class to dip into ranger.
Also, while mythic power attack is good, I think there are a lot of better things. Mythic power attack doesn't give you any more options, while many other things (Wild arcana lol) let you react to basically any situation(An aside: while I understand people's concern with Mythic Power Attack---every damage boost makes things more unbalanced---I think CWheezy is right that this is a relatively minor offender. I think this is true even if we focus on feats which do nothing but increase damage.
For a 18th level full-BAB class PC, Mythic Power Attack adds +5 damage per hit, for about +20 damage in a round.
Whereas Mythic Rapid Shot and Mythic Manyshot each effectively add an additional ranged attack. And against evil outsiders (e.g., pretty much every opponent), each ranged attack from my player's 18th lvl ranger does an average of +66 damage (+81 if she's also using Mythic Deadly Aim).
So as a DM, I've found things like Mythic Rapid Shot and Mythic Manyshot to be a much bigger problem than Mythic Power Attack.)
Mythic Power attack by itself is still incredibly strong, however it becomes ridiculous when people start taking the Mythic Critical options, like Mythic Improved Critical or the Critical Mastery Champion power (the one that auto-confirms critical threats). We're playing a Mythic Legacy of Fire campaign, and the fighter is just destroying encounters.
As a 2-handed fighter archetype, he's getting double strength on his Fleet Charge (thanks to Overhand Chop) and then getting double his strength on all attacks after the first, while the first attack has no Power Attack penalty.
I believe he has a 28 strength right now, so during a fleet charge he's got +18 from strength and +18 from Power Attack, +2 from weapon enhancement, +4 weapon training (gloves of dueling), and +4 from Weapon specialization and Greater; totaling a +26 damage bonus before any other special modifier (such as buffs or his Bane property). He's using a Falchion and is regularly enlarged and has Mythic Improved Critical, meaning he's got a x3 modifier and a 15-20 crit range.
Due to the interaction of Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Improved Critical, any time he crits something, it's basically an auto-death because on a crit, instead of dealing 2d4+26 x3, he's dealing 2d4+44 x3 for an average of 147 points of damage. It's an auto-death, because he still gets to make his full-attack afterwards and with a 15-20 crit range, chances are good he'll get another crit.
Its a very small point but I don't think fleet charge and overhand chop would combine.
But it still proves everyone's point: that those feats and abilities are the norm for a 2H fighter at that level. So that damage should be expected, so hit points all around aren't high enough...as that combo could be done to a PC as well.
@Peter Stewart:
Here's the wizard in my campaign...nothing special I'm guessing from the posts. In fast she compares well to 12th lvl Seoni.
12th lvl enhancement, 4th tier archmageStr 10, Dex 14, Con 14(17), Int 24(28), Wis 12(16), Chr 12
spell focus/tattoo: trans, spell spec/greater: haste, craft arms/wonderous items, spell pen, empower spell, extra traits
mythic: wild surge, harmonious mage, abundant casting, crafting mastery, component freedom(m), enduring armor, mythic spell lore
major items: robe of archmagi, headband +4 int/wis, 3 lesser meta rods.
almost all of those provided by the API don't consider this an outlaying character; other than the player didn't pick feats randomly like some pregens do.
Intelligence 2 points higher than 17th level Seoni's Charisma despite being in theory 3 levels lower (1 level lower by the argument of those who say tier = level). Constitution 5 points higher. Overall not that large of an outlier from what I can see, but this kind of abbreviated stat-line no doubt lacks the nuance of a full sheet. I'm curious though, what is your wizard doing to break open the AP and trivialize encounters?
From what I remember Seoni has a 24 Chr at level 12 , so she is right in line. The extra Con comes from the wizard school.
The wizard doesn't offset balance much, other than mythic spells. And wild arcana is too powerful of an ability. First rounds are often spend casting haste and debuting enemies with mythic dispel. Or battlefield control, being able to cast nearly any spell is a huge advantage.
I've already nerfed it so that the only Archmage ability that is Swift is the one that converts a spell into damage (2d6 per level) and does a swift melee attack. So while you can cast any spell with Wild Arcana, it's limited to a Standard Action or slower.
Tangent, its not a nerf in a way. If its the ability I am thinking of it has already been errata-d as a standard action. Even with that the ability should be further limited.
My thought is that those abilities(like the heirophant one as well)could only be used to cast spells of tier level or less, or possibly even half tier or less.
@Peter Stewart:
Here's the wizard in my campaign...nothing special I'm guessing from the posts. In fast she compares well to 12th lvl Seoni.
12th lvl enhancement, 4th tier archmageStr 10, Dex 14, Con 14(17), Int 24(28), Wis 12(16), Chr 12
spell focus/tattoo: trans, spell spec/greater: haste, craft arms/wonderous items, spell pen, empower spell, extra traits
mythic: wild surge, harmonious mage, abundant casting, crafting mastery, component freedom(m), enduring armor, mythic spell lore
major items: robe of archmagi, headband +4 int/wis, 3 lesser meta rods.
almost all of those provided by the API don't consider this an outlaying character; other than the player didn't pick feats randomly like some pregens do.
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 24
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 25
Feats Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (evocation), Toughness
Skills Bluff +22, Climb +3, Knowledge (planes) +15, Perception +4, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +15
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ arcane bond (familiar, blue-tailed skink named Dragon), bloodline arcana (+1 DC for metamagic spells that increase spell level), metamagic adept (3/day), new arcana
Combat Gear potions of cure moderate wounds (3), scroll of fly, scroll of protection from energy, wand of magic missile (CL 7th, 32 charges); Other Gear dagger, quarterstaff, amulet of natural armor +4, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3, dusty rose prism ioun stone, headband of alluring charisma +4, ring of counterspells (contains magic missile), ring of protection +4, backpack, trail rations (4), granite and diamond dust worth 250 gp, 734 g
Seoni has a 24 CHA *with* a +4 headband on.
That's not a base 24.
You are (in terms of build points) about 12 points more 'optimised' than the base Seoni - so yeah - that's a huge difference in power.
Umm...and the wizard's prime stat is 4 higher because of mythic points. The Wis is 4 higher because of an item given out by the AP. Con is 3 higher because of enhancement school ability. So that is not 12 pts, or I don't think so... it is early and I'm not finished with my coffee yet.
Edit: However, you are right to a point. Looking over stats I think it is 2 pts over, so Cha should probably be a 10. Doesn't change much.
It doesn't matter why your character is higher than the iconic build, just that your character is. The iconic is the baseline. If you exceed that baseline, you shouldn't be surprised at the lesser challenge.
It doesn't matter why your character is higher than the iconic build, just that your character is. The iconic is the baseline. If you exceed that baseline, you shouldn't be surprised at the lesser challenge.
Oh, BS. The iconics are built on the basis of their character pictures as done by Wayne Reynolds. They never have been touted as some sort of baseline against which player characters have to be measured and you just pulled that right out of your tuchas.
Umm...and the wizard's prime stat is 4 higher because of mythic points. The Wis is 4 higher because of an item given out by the AP. Con is 3 higher because of enhancement school ability. So that is not 12 pts, or I don't think so... it is early and I'm not finished with my coffee yet.
Edit: However, you are right to a point. Looking over stats I think it is 2 pts over, so Cha should probably be a 10. Doesn't change much.
Ok stats for Seoni *without* items on:
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Your stats:
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14(17), Int 24(28), Wis 12(16), Cha 12
So is the (28) because of an item or because of mythic or both? by looking I can't tell.
what are your stats without mythic and items.
I see 2 points more in Con Seoni has 2 points more in Wis so that's a wash. Points 11 and 12 in your non casting stat = 3 build points. When I see someone put down a stat in the form 24(28) the (28) is supposed to mean modified - comparing modified builds you get:
Seoni: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 24
You: Str 10 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 28 Wis 16 Cha 12
Your build has a net gain of 10 more stat points - Now *how* you got them really doesn't matter at this point - the GM gave them to you - At least up to Tier 5 you only get 2 more ability points than any other time.
So looking at it - from the numbers you have 8 more ability points that didn't come from the mythic rules - over our 'standard' npc. 8 ability points is unreal - it's the difference between Legolas and a standard orc. The point is - if your GM isn't buffing the encounters for your optimization then the encounters are going to feel milqtoast.
As to your casting stat - you have +2 to all spell DCs (of all schools) that the stock PC doesn't have - that's like getting spell focus and greater spell focus in every school for free. That's huge.
It doesn't matter why your character is higher than the iconic build, just that your character is. The iconic is the baseline. If you exceed that baseline, you shouldn't be surprised at the lesser challenge.Oh, BS. The iconics are built on the basis of their character pictures as done by Wayne Reynolds. They never have been touted as some sort of baseline against which player characters have to be measured and you just pulled that right out of your tuchas.
That's BS. James Jacobs has said over and over the AP's are built with a 15 point buy standard in mind and the Iconics are meant to represent average PC's. I've seen him reply to you directly that it's *exactly* how they balance the published materials and that you will need to adjust if you aren't happy with how it's published.
I don't have an issue with people running super powered campaigns - but yeah when you run characters that are more powerful than the average - expect to either need to buff things up and adjust the tactics or be disappointed with the challenge level. Otherwise it's like running Doom and turning 'godmode' on then complaining because you didn't really find any hard spots.
How the PCs got higher stats does matter, as this is a mythic campaign and by the rules mythic characters have higher stats. At tier 4 a PC has two +2 stat buffs, that explains the higher casting stat by 4, which is 4 higher and not the 2 you suggested. Without equipment lower the wizards Int and Wis by 4 each. The wizard class adds 3 to Con (or any physical attribute)
Beginning stats for this character would be
St 10 Dx 14 Cn 13 In 18 Ws 12 Ch 10 (as I said this was too high by 2 pts)
I believe that is a 20 pt build, and is higher than APs suggest but is in line with the iconics. My fault, I didn't know baselines when starting this campaign.
But I see several forums that would state this build is weak because it didn't start with a 20 stat.
And honestly spell DCs don't matter. All the PCs and most of the enemy can make any save that is required of them.
How the PCs got higher stats does matter, as this is a mythic campaign and by the rules mythic characters have higher stats. At tier 4 a PC has two +2 stat buffs, that explains the higher casting stat by 4, which is 4 higher and not the 2 you suggested. Without equipment lower the wizards Int and Wis by 4 each. The wizard class adds 3 to Con (or any physical attribute)
Beginning stats for this character would be
St 10 Dx 14 Cn 13 In 18 Ws 12 Ch 10 (as I said this was too high by 2 pts)I believe that is a 20 pt build, and is higher than APs suggest but is in line with the iconics. My fault, I didn't know baselines when starting this campaign.
But I see several forums that would state this build is weak because it didn't start with a 20 stat.
And honestly spell DCs don't matter. All the PCs and most of the enemy can make any save that is required of them.
2 higher - I forgot mythic was 2 points per 'bump' - the thing I was missing was the wizard ability - that's a school thing right - er transmutation I think?
Your build (all things considered) isn't too far off of the iconic - 3 build points as far as I can tell. I'm guessing your race makes the difference with the missing 2 build points, as Seoni is a 15 point human.
DC's really don't matter to you at all? You never have a monster fail a save? That's more worrying to me than anything else I've read.
Iconics are built off of 20 pts...also added to my confusion of PCs for APs.
Many of the enemies have a +15 to +20 or more on all saves. (At the start of book 4)
Most of the PCs have saves (with a buff or two) that can get to the same range or higher, and they have surges. Spell casters are very little challenge to high level foes...if they use spells that have saves.
So having DCs in the mid 20s or so is not impressive.
Iconics are built off of 20 pts...also added to my confusion of PCs for APs.
Many of the enemies have a +15 to +20 or more on all saves. (At the start of book 4)
Most of the PCs have saves (with a buff or two) that can get to the same range or higher, and they have surges. Spell casters are very little challenge to high level foes...if they use spells that have saves.
So having DCs in the mid 20s or so is not impressive.
Doh - I always thought they were 15.
It's due to magnuskn's convo's with JJ that I know what they develop for. His back and forth opened up alot of 'inside the mind' type stuff.
* The APs are designed for 15 point buys
* The 'average' player is expected to have played through 1 AP and been with the game for 6 months to a year
* If your group is more experienced or has system mastery then you need to up the encounters to compensate.
* JJ plays a 20 point buy game with very experienced players and just adjusts on the fly for his own games
* Most customers (from Paizo's data) never run a campaign past level 12
He's suggested to magnuskn for his group to go in with possibly a 10 point buy and apply the advanced template twice to each monster - I dunno how that would work out, but if you feel underwhelmed it's really up to you to convince your GM to either play the enemies up with better tactics - or to make them tougher. Just remember the GM can kill a PC if they want at whim - it's not always easy to figure out what is 'fun' for the players and what is a drag.
Told y'all.
My opinion from the start was that there would be a strong element of unpredictability in power levels due to so many rules and options being added, some using completely new mechanics. We were told that this was necessary to 'tell the story they wanted to tell'. Hogwash.
We dispensed with the Mythic rules, in part because I didn't want to have to deal with the over-complications that would inevitably ensue, in part because my players wanted to finally get to use their capstone ability, and in part because there seemed like genuine interest in how playable the AP would be without them.
Party of 4, 20 point buys and the characters leveled at the predetermined times as well as gaining levels at what would have been Mythic Tiers 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 10. Meaning characters would level faster and would top out at 26th level, though no character was allowed to have more than 20 levels in a particular class. To keep the power curve more even at higher levels, I added a single 'epic' rule:
At each level beyond 20th, you get to reroll a single d20 X/day with a bonus of +X where X equals your level above 20. In other words, once a day with a +1 bonus at 21st, twice a day with a +2 bonus at 22nd and so on.
This far its worked out superbly, the only problem having been the work necessary to disassociate mythic threats with some of their mythic aspects. The players feel suitably epic, are well challenged and the story is being told perfectly well. Moreover, the power curve if infinitely easier to predict which makes life much easier for me as the GM.
Wrath of the Righteous = tremendous story and epic campaign.
Mythic Rules = utterly unnecessary complication which may well have ruined the AP for many players as we're seeing in these forums.
That's BS. James Jacobs has said over and over the AP's are built with a 15 point buy standard in mind and the Iconics are meant to represent average PC's. I've seen him reply to you directly that it's *exactly* how they balance the published materials and that you will need to adjust if you aren't happy with how it's published.
I don't have an issue with people running super powered campaigns - but yeah when you run characters that are more powerful than the average - expect to either need to buff things up and adjust the tactics or be disappointed with the challenge level. Otherwise it's like running Doom and turning 'godmode' on then complaining because you didn't really find any hard spots.
As Seannoss has already pointed out, the iconics are built with 20 points. And even then they are sometimes built in a way which can't be explained outside of "because so that their stats represent Wayne Reynolds picture". That isn't normal character building, that is building a character to do justice to something they are predisposed to be. Most of them are decently built, though, with some weird stuff which has to be there for "make the stats fit Valeros image" on top.
And you are pretty much off in regards to the Wizard/Seoni comparison. The stats are mostly right, I can only see some additional points put into Wisdom and Charisma, which are not the most important stats to a Wizard in the first place. That the character apparently has better equipment than Seoni also shouldn't be any surprise, Paizo threw ludicrous amounts of treasure at the players and mythic rules make crafting magic items easier by a ton, too.
He's suggested to magnuskn for his group to go in with possibly a 10 point buy and apply the advanced template twice to each monster - I dunno how that would work out, but if you feel underwhelmed it's really up to you to convince your GM to either play the enemies up with better tactics - or to make them tougher. Just remember the GM can kill a PC if they want at whim - it's not always easy to figure out what is 'fun' for the players and what is a drag.
Getting your characters killed is pretty surely in the "drag" category, especially if it seems arbitrarily done by the GM.
Also, while I didn't do the 10 point build JJ wanted, someone else did. And the players still stomped all over the campaign.
Wrath of the Righteous = tremendous story and epic campaign.
Mythic Rules = utterly unnecessary complication which may well have ruined the AP for many players as we're seeing in these forums.
Yes, that encapsulates my feelings to a point. Which hopefully explains why I have been getting more and more irritated in the last days about the topic. Man, I hope that GM's who are running this AP are quick on their feet. Mikaze is in a WotRC campaign right now and keeping a tremendous campaign journal. I'd hate to see that campaign flounder and disappear because their GM can't deal with all the problems mythic throws at them. :-/
Not to mention the worries I have for later levels in my own campaign.
Interestingly enough, my players are enjoying the Mythic Rules - though they are in Reign of Winter, and only just now reached the 2nd Tier. It seems quite likely that in another couple of years when we finish RoW (though I am cutting fluff encounters out of the second book and leveling them up when I feel they should level up, so that may very well speed things up) we'll then go with Wrath of the Righteous.
I'll probably allow them 20-point builds and then only give them +1 to stats for each even Mythic Tier, and may very well refuse specific feats and Mythic feats, but I also have been known to fudge things for an enemy so the foe isn't just killed in one round. And I also use atmosphere for encounters... so the PCs will likely flee the fight against the first Demon Lord because they'll know a Herald of a Goddess was pwned by his agents and turned by that Lord in just a short period of time. Why risk facing him? Heh heh heh.
I think you will be well surprised how your players will feel about that after they have had mythic tier 6-8 at their back for quite a while. So far I've heard, no group has managed to lose against Baphomet. The obituaries thread is remarkably small for this AP.
Mikaze is in a WotRC campaign right now and keeping a tremendous campaign journal. I'd hate to see that campaign flounder and disappear because their GM can't deal with all the problems mythic throws at them. :-/
Not to mention the worries I have for later levels in my own campaign.
Wait... Mikaze is keeping a campaign journal?!?!
I gotta find this and read it! I hope it doesn't flounder, I recall Mikaze never finished Laori's story, and I liked his write up of it.
Most of them are decently built, though, with some weird stuff which has to be there for "make the stats fit Valeros image" on top.
And you are pretty much off in regards to the Wizard/Seoni comparison. The stats are mostly right, I can only see some additional points put into Wisdom and Charisma, which are not the most important stats to a Wizard in the first place. That the character apparently has better equipment than Seoni also shouldn't be any surprise, Paizo threw ludicrous amounts of treasure at the players and mythic rules make crafting magic items easier by a ton, too.
I admitted as much about the build once I got more details. I think the difference in points must be a racial thing (as I said above).
As to the first part.... I think that's part of the problem - the encounters in AP's are designed for people who take Timmy feats - my current group does this - and I've played with people in the past where half the feat selection is Timmy feats. I personally like well built characters (and I don't mind ones that are sub-par - but built poorly bugs me) - Mythic makes it much easier to take Timmy feats and still be well built - perhaps that's the problem.
The other half of the problem is that combat gets crazy complex at higher levels - the power jump at level 12 is not easy to adjust for.
That's BS. James Jacobs has said over and over the AP's are built with a 15 point buy standard.As Seannoss has already pointed out, the iconics are built with 20 points....
Mmm. So the iconics are 20 point builds. And the APs are built for 15 point builds.
And you have more power than the iconic's build. (Or the actual PCs published in the NPC Guide, played by actual Paizo staff.)
You can keep talking around in circles, Magnuskin, but the point remains that if your characters are more powerful than expected by any given standard for the AP, then they are going to have an easier time.
I can't even believe that's under discussion.
As to the first part.... I think that's part of the problem - the encounters in AP's are designed for people who take Timmy feats - my current group does this - and I've played with people in the past where half the feat selection is Timmy feats. I personally like well built characters (and I don't mind ones that are sub-par - but built poorly bugs me) - Mythic makes it much easier to take Timmy feats and still be well built - perhaps that's the problem.
I think one of the big problems here is also that it is almost impossible to miss the good feats and abilities in the book. They are all in one place and they are really that good.
The other half of the problem is that combat gets crazy complex at higher levels - the power jump at level 12 is not easy to adjust for.
It's that the designers don't seem aware that this power jump exists in their AP design what frustrates me. It's not the same game as the lower levels, even in normal play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wait... Mikaze is keeping a campaign journal?!?!
I gotta find this and read it! I hope it doesn't flounder, I recall Mikaze never finished Laori's story, and I liked his write up of it.
Sorry, forgot to post the link to the journal. Here it is.
They haven't even begun the AP proper yet and Mikaze has already written what appears to be half a novel. ^^ And it's great writing, as usual.
That's BS. James Jacobs has said over and over the AP's are built with a 15 point buy standard.As Seannoss has already pointed out, the iconics are built with 20 points....Mmm. So the iconics are 20 point builds. And the APs are built for 15 point builds.
And you have more power than the iconic's build. (Or the actual PCs published in the NPC Guide, played by actual Paizo staff.)
You can keep talking around in circles, Magnuskin, but the point remains that if your characters are more powerful than expected by any given standard for the AP, then they are going to have an easier time.
I can't even believe that's under discussion.
Tis only in PFS that the Iconics are 20 point builds, in the early APs* they are in fact 15 point builds
*they haven't had pre-gen PCs since Serpent's Skull
Yes, mythic tiers one and two are fine. Throw out an advanced template or two and you can work with that through book 2.
The big jump happens when the higher levels and tiers start to interact with each other. When major NPCs only have around 200hps...or 3-400 after I adjust them and it is too easy to get full attacks off, then what? This isn't that great of a tactical game.
From another thread, magnus has it correct that RP challenges seem to be a much better way to go...as long as dice aren't involved as PCs can easily hit DC60 to 70 at level 12.
And I truly doubt that the game is that fine tuned that 5 extra points ruins the whole game. What it does is prevent my PCs from burying a stat that isn't likely to come into play.
Quick edit for Captain: I only have the NPC Codex. In that book they are presented at PC wealth and a 20 pt buy.
Yes, mythic tiers one and two are fine. Throw out an advanced template or two and you can work with that through book 2.
The big jump happens when the higher levels and tiers start to interact with each other. When major NPCs only have around 200hps...or 3-400 after I adjust them and it is too easy to get full attacks off, then what? This isn't that great of a tactical game.
Yeah, good tactics are easy to learn and they almost never need much adjusting after you know them.
From another thread, magnus has it correct that RP challenges seem to be a much better way to go...as long as dice aren't involved as PCs can easily hit DC60 to 70 at level 12.
Luckily I haven't had to deal with this ever, although DC's of 30 really are easily beatable at around level 10-12.
And I truly doubt that the game is that fine tuned that 5 extra points ruins the whole game. What it does is prevent my PCs from burying a stat that isn't likely to come into play.
Yup, same thought process here. Okay, if you allow your players to absolutely min-max then it giving them five points makes it only easier for them. But if you give them the option of getting 5 more points and in return accept some restrictions on ability allocation, then it really helps out with rounding out their characters in inoffensive ways.
You know, I'm surprised the Development team designs the AP based on the expectation that the average player has played one AP before or has 6 months of experience with Pathfinder.
In order for that to be true, there has a be a huge influx of new players all of the time, while experienced players have to dropping out at the same rate so that the average remains consistent.
I really think Paizo needs to re-think their expectations of average, especially since they don't even support their rules when it comes to designing encounters.
The game is balanced around a 4 person pary with 15 point buy and normal WBL, yet we know both the Iconics and PFS use 20 point buy, and I know that the modules, APs and Society Scenarios are often way above WBL (JJ said they do this on purpose). Tables are growing larger and we know that the average table is now 5 or 6 players instead of 4.
So we have larger party sizes than expected, higher point buy than expected and a higher WBL than expected, so the game is being thrown wildly off balance. Mythic just makes it even worse as the Mythic Templates are nowhere near as good as the actual Mythic Paths.
I understand potential WBL treasure should be higher. My PCs have missed more than one treasure trove so if the game only ran at expected value then they would be far behind. (which would be fine but PCs like treasure, don't blame them for that)
As for Magnus: if skills are more important then so will the Display of mythic abilities. I mentioned this to the paladin in my group so now he can achieve diplomacy DCs of 65+. Whew....so now all these diplomacy encounters are easy (depending on what he still says in character)
Interesting thought process Tels. They keep saying that if enough of us spoke up then they will try to make other products, hopefully we are. I would love to see a book for how to manage higher levels beyond rocket tag.
Yes, mythic tiers one and two are fine. Throw out an advanced template or two and you can work with that through book 2.
The big jump happens when the higher levels and tiers start to interact with each other. When major NPCs only have around 200hps...or 3-400 after I adjust them and it is too easy to get full attacks off, then what? This isn't that great of a tactical game.Yeah, good tactics are easy to learn and they almost never need much adjusting after you know them.
From another thread, magnus has it correct that RP challenges seem to be a much better way to go...as long as dice aren't involved as PCs can easily hit DC60 to 70 at level 12.Luckily I haven't had to deal with this ever, although DC's of 30 really are easily beatable at around level 10-12.
And I truly doubt that the game is that fine tuned that 5 extra points ruins the whole game. What it does is prevent my PCs from burying a stat that isn't likely to come into play.Yup, same thought process here. Okay, if you allow your players to absolutely min-max then it giving them five points makes it only easier for them. But if you give them the option of getting 5 more points and in return accept some restrictions on ability allocation, then it really helps out with rounding out their characters in inoffensive ways.
Had a GM once who gave everybody the opportunity to use 20 point buys, but said that for every attribute that under 10 you had to forfeit a trait.
As for Magnus: if skills are more important then so will the Display of mythic abilities. I mentioned this to the paladin in my group so now he can achieve diplomacy DCs of 65+. Whew....so now all these diplomacy encounters are easy (depending on what he still says in character)
Well, okay. I didn't put mythic into my thought process here. But I think nobody in my group will take those, since there are so many better ones.
Had a GM once who gave everybody the opportunity to use 20 point buys, but said that for every attribute that under 10 you had to forfeit a trait.
That's one method. I personally don't want players to start with a natural attribute above 16 (before racials) and not more than one below 8.
None of the PCs in my group have a stat below 10, and none started with one above 18. So very much the same thinking there.
He's suggested to magnuskn for his group to go in with possibly a 10 point buy and apply the advanced template twice to each monster...Also, while I didn't do the 10 point build JJ wanted, someone else did. And the players still stomped all over the campaign.
That was me.
(My players are using a 10pt build (with no bonus points for ability scores below 10), the slow XP advancement track, and I don't allow them to craft magic items, or to buy magic items whose cost is greater than the Base Value of the biggest settlement they have access to.)
Two data points with respect to my experiences with WoTR that might be helpful:
1. I've gone through a couple different APs with these players (and for these other APs they've have 15pt buys, normal XP advancement, and greater access to magic items). We've never encountered anything like the balance problems we've encountered here.
2. Starting book 5, I've been using Sc8rpi8n_mjd's upgraded stat blocks (and doubling HPs), and things have run like a dream.
The first point suggests that there are definitely Mythic-specific balance problems.
The second point suggests that the Mythic game is, in fact, salvageable. But it requires a lot more work and ingenuity than just slapping on an advanced template or two.
Thanks, porridge, I had trouble finding your post where you first recounted how your AP went.
And while advanced templates help quite a bit early on, I'll take you on your word on how they don't help so much in the later modules.
In any case, with your pre-nerfed PC's and the need to still use the upgraded versions of the opponents, it should be pretty clear that the "it's your fault, because you are not using pre-gen characters power levels" argument is pretty bunk.
I was going to say, "Oh, that's just the Life Oracle's Spirit Boost," but that's only up to the Oracle's level (so only up to 20 HP) and only lasts for 1 round/level (OK, by level 10 that's "for the rest of the fight".)
So I'll ditto the, "Are you sure your Oracle isn't cheesing you?" question.
