Do Rogues just flat out suck?


Advice

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So, I may be playing a bard in an upcoming game and thought I might borrow this thread to get some advice on it. The group already contains a summoning Druid, melee focused Paladin and blaster Sorcerer. I have decided to go down the support route which I don't normally do. I also need to provide the skill monkey which the group sorely lacks. The druid has wilderness stuff covered but the Sorcerer has very few skill points.

As a result I have decided that I have to keep Versatile Performance and probably Lore Master. They don't have many knowledge skills between them, mostly Nature and Religion. As a support character I am less concerned about my own performance (although I must be able to contribute) than my ability to improve my allies.

As a result I have decided to go with the Bard and would appreciate any suggestions. As yet gear isn't really complete, I have a bunch of wands, scrolls and potions to consider. The stats include Inspire Courage which I can safely assume will always be up.

Human Bard (Sound Striker) 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +17

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Defense
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AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 insight)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +13, Will +9 (+4 vs. charm and compulsion); +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects, +2 morale bonus vs. charm and fear

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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.

Melee
+2 longspear +16/+9 (1d8+17/×3) (including furious focus)
Cestus +12/7 (1d4+11, 19-20/x2)

Special Attacks bardic performance 25 rounds/day (move action; countersong, dirge of doom, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, weird words, wordstrike)

Bard (Sound Striker) Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +13):

4th (1/day)—dimension door, greater invisibility
3rd (4/day)—dispel magic, gaseous form, good hope, haste, purging finale (DC 16)
2nd (5/day)—alter self, bladed dash, delay poison, glitterdust (DC 15), heroism, invisibility, mirror image, tongues
1st (6/day)—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, disguise self, feather fall (DC 14), liberating command, remove fear, saving finale (DC 14), silent image (DC 14)
0 (at will)—daze (DC 13), detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), light, message, prestidigitation (DC 13)

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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16

Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 26

Feats Combat Reflexes, Discordant Voice, Furious Focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perform [act]), Skill Focus (Perform [oratory])

Traits irrepressible, vagabond child (disable device)

Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +27, Diplomacy +27, Disable Device +19, Disguise +27, Fly +21, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +6, Perception +17, Perform (act) +27, Perform (dance) +21, Perform (oratory) +27, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +16, Use Magic Device +16

Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Goblin

Special Qualities bardic knowledge +5, jack of all trades (use any skill), lore master 1/day, versatile performance abilities (act, dance, oratory)

Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +2 longspear, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical might (str & dex +2), bracers of the glib entertainer, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, feather step slippers, handy haversack, headband of alluring charisma +2, ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ioun stone (dusty rose prism), ring of protection +1, thieves' tools, masterwork


Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.

I think the real issue is that traps, and the single PC scouting ahead alone while the party waits is a bad dynamic in a group game. It is also a lot less important then back when many traps were save or die.

Rogues are only slightly underpowered, and only suck if you are expecting them to shine in a non-skill focused game style.


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Avh wrote:

@Atarlost : you should compare things that are comparable : compare to-hit, and the fact that the whole group benefits from the bard inspire/buffs, not only the bard.

Bards are really much more powerful in combat than rogues, and out of combat the difference is even greater.

The problem is that the composition of that party is going to matter a lot--

Have a Wizard or a Sorcerer who casts haste? Bard's value decreases drastically.

Ditto for any other spell casting buffing party member.

Have one Bard already? Second bard's value drastically decreased while value of rogue (who gains more than Fighters from increases to accuracy from other party members buffs) drastically increases because his to hit goes up and he still gets all the sneak attack dice.

If you have a party of 3 non-spellcasters (or low casters like rangers/paladins)? Bard's value goes way up


Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.

I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.

Maybe including some Shadowdancer abilities in there. I can definitely see it working.


Athaleon wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.
Maybe including some Shadowdancer abilities in there. I can definitely see it working.

It would be an interesting class; I don't think that should be the core rogue though. . . and it would have to get about half the sneak attack dice or else it would just be fighter super plus.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.

Bloodrager has you beat already. And with both the Magus and Bard also existing, it would be really hard to make a "ranger-esque" mage-rogue.


Nathanael Love wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.
Maybe including some Shadowdancer abilities in there. I can definitely see it working.
It would be an interesting class; I don't think that should be the core rogue though. . . and it would have to get about half the sneak attack dice or else it would just be fighter super plus.

The subject of the 'core rogue' is debatable. Doing this would certainly power up the core rogue chassis and allow for some powerful archetypes which sub out the casting.

On the subject of 'fighter super plus' however, you are dead wrong.

Full BAB is nothing more than +1 to hit at level 1 and every 4 levels thereafter. It allows the Rogue to deliver his Sneak Attacks more reliably, but he still has to actually contrive sneak attack (flanking or other tricks), he is still restricted to Light Armor without feats, and he still doesn't have any built in bonuses to hit, unlike Weapon Training etc.

He also has a significantly worse save than the Fighter's Fortitude. (Reflex is handy when it counts, but 9 times out of 10 its just protecting against HP damage rather than all the nasty stuff Fort saves you from.)


Nathanael Love wrote:
Avh wrote:

@Atarlost : you should compare things that are comparable : compare to-hit, and the fact that the whole group benefits from the bard inspire/buffs, not only the bard.

Bards are really much more powerful in combat than rogues, and out of combat the difference is even greater.

The problem is that the composition of that party is going to matter a lot--

Have a Wizard or a Sorcerer who casts haste? Bard's value decreases drastically.
Ditto for any other spell casting buffing party member.

Nope : either, it makes the wizard or sorcerer free to cast another spell instead of Haste OR the bard is free to choose another spell than haste.

Moreover, bard abilities can be added to pretty much any other bonuses.

Quote:
Have one Bard already? Second bard's value drastically decreased while value of rogue (who gains more than Fighters from increases to accuracy from other party members buffs) drastically increases because his to hit goes up and he still gets all the sneak attack dice.

You could have 2 bardic music on at the same time, and each bard could take different spells, to expand group versatility.

The rogue team will be a liability to any serious group of adventurers. The risk of them dying is way too high.

Quote:
If you have a party of 3 non-spellcasters (or low casters like rangers/paladins)? Bard's value goes way up

And it's really easy to have that many.

Remember that summoned monsters are pretty good, and having them buffed is very easy by a bard.


Avh wrote:

@Atarlost : you should compare things that are comparable : compare to-hit, and the fact that the whole group benefits from the bard inspire/buffs, not only the bard.

Bards are really much more powerful in combat than rogues, and out of combat the difference is even greater.

Atarlost wrote:
So absent spells the rogue usually does more damage. Putting Keen on that longsword would help a bit. Playing a tengu or half-elf or half-orc and using a scimitar or falchion with keen would help more. Having one martial or semi-martial friend (or questioning how the rogue can consistently sneak attack without one) would blow the rogue away based on what he does for his allies' hit rates.

Please actually read posts before commenting on them.

Shadow Lodge

I'm going to put in here that the rogue isn't nearly as underpowered when you restrict it to just the Core Rulebook. But the rogue archetypes don't have any that are really outstanding [which every class except for maybe Cavalier, and the Samurai/Ninja which have no archetypes, all pretty much have incredible archetypes], and often are severely underpowered. Rogue has like 3, 4 if you count racial. They also get a lot of rather bad rogue talents and feats, making the entire class go up in power slower than the others, making it severely underpowered. And even after that, they can still be just fine in most campaigns that aren't high-powered. They will just lag a bit.


K177Y C47 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.
Bloodrager has you beat already. And with both the Magus and Bard also existing, it would be really hard to make a "ranger-esque" mage-rogue.

It would have some Bard overlap, but I don't think it would have too much in common with the Magus. Nor would it be any more similar to the Bloodrager than the Ranger is to the Paladin.


Athaleon wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.
Bloodrager has you beat already. And with both the Magus and Bard also existing, it would be really hard to make a "ranger-esque" mage-rogue.
It would have some Bard overlap, but I don't think it would have too much in common with the Magus. Nor would it be any more similar to the Bloodrager than the Ranger is to the Paladin.

Well the thing is, in divine magic there are 2 sides to divine. The Ranger is not the rogue-sh divine full BAB. It is the fighter hybring of the druid where as teh Pally is the fighter equivalent of the cleric. Divine magic has the Great Gods holy (i.e. "priests") and it also encompasses the nature-y guys (i.e. tree huggers). The thing is, arcane really has 1 big niche. An arcane caster is an arcane caster is an arcane caster. The only way they can make a full BAB, arcane casting guy who doesn't step to much on the toes of the Magus, Bard, and Bloodrager, would be to make a Witch like melee, but that would be way to close to the Hexcrafter...


That's not very true at all, in my opinion.

The Rogue we're talking about would step on the bards toes somewhat sure (the bard already dances all over the Rogue's toes now) but that's where it would stop.

Magus fights with magic and muscle, entwining the two in a sort of magical swordsmanship.

Bloodrager is a magical rager.

This Rogue would be a cunning rogue/thief/assassin/ type, who's spell list supports the kinds of things Rogues should be good at, and who happens to bring Sneak Attack to combat with a Full BAB.


kyrt-ryder wrote:


Bloodrager is a magical rager.

Although we haven't yet seen the final version of the class, it might very well be just a self buffing rager instead of a magical rager.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

That's not very true at all, in my opinion.

The Rogue we're talking about would step on the bards toes somewhat sure (the bard already dances all over the Rogue's toes now) but that's where it would stop.

Magus fights with magic and muscle, entwining the two in a sort of magical swordsmanship.

Bloodrager is a magical rager.

This Rogue would be a cunning rogue/thief/assassin/ type, who's spell list supports the kinds of things Rogues should be good at, and who happens to bring Sneak Attack to combat with a Full BAB.

So... the Beguiler from 3.5 Player's handbook II


Specialist: At 7th level a rogue may choose to specialize in combat or magic.

At 7th level, a rogue who selected to pursue magic must choose between arcane and divine magic. If the rogue chooses arcane spells, they can either choose to use intelligence or charisma as their casting stat. If the rogue selects divine spells, wisdom is their casting stat. Once a rogue selects a magic type and casting stat, it cannot be changed.

Beginning at 7th level, a rogue gains the ability to cast a small number of spells, which are drawn from the druid and cleric lists for divine spells, and the sorcerer/wizard list for arcane. A rogue must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a divine spell, a rogue must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a rogue's divine spell is 10 + the spell level + the rogue's Wisdom modifier.

To prepare or cast an arcane spell, a rogue must have an intelligence or charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a rogue's divine spell is 10 + the spell level + the rogue's intelligence or charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a rogue can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. A rogue casts as per a ranger three levels lower. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Ranger. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high casting stat (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Ranger indicates that the rogue gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to them based on his casting stat score for that spell level.

A rogue must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on his spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Through 6th level, a rogue has no caster level. At 7th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his rogue level – 6. A rogue can cast arcane spells while wearing light armor and use a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a rogue wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.

Combat Specialization Feat (Ex): At 7th level, a rogue who selected to pursue combat may select any feat from the list available to 2nd level rangers (see below). The rogue does not need to choose between ranged and two-weapon, and may select from any combat styles available to rangers. The rogue's combat specialization manifests in the form of bonus feats at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level. He can choose from these feats, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.

The rogue can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat feat: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 11th level, he adds Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Defense to the list. At 15th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend to the list.

The benefits of the rogue's chosen combat feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Based on the last 1000 posts my conclusion is that rogues are only slightly underpowered. Giving them something like rangers weapon feats, or casting as a ranger -3 levels and allow choice of all spells would make rogues a well balanced class.
I think this: Turning the Rogue into the Arcane alternate to the Ranger (and Paladin to a lesser extent), with full BAB and 4th level spellcasting could be a pretty interesting solution.

It woudl be a total failure in my opinion that the game can not just give the rogue decent non-magical options.

EDIT: correcting a typo.


K177Y C47 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

That's not very true at all, in my opinion.

The Rogue we're talking about would step on the bards toes somewhat sure (the bard already dances all over the Rogue's toes now) but that's where it would stop.

Magus fights with magic and muscle, entwining the two in a sort of magical swordsmanship.

Bloodrager is a magical rager.

This Rogue would be a cunning rogue/thief/assassin/ type, who's spell list supports the kinds of things Rogues should be good at, and who happens to bring Sneak Attack to combat with a Full BAB.

So... the Beguiler from 3.5 Player's handbook II

Less magic more martial, but yes. That's the basic principle.


leo1925 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:


Bloodrager is a magical rager.
Although we haven't yet seen the final version of the class, it might very well be just a self buffing rager instead of a magical rager.

Uh, Bloodrage is supernatural. It is shut down by Antimagic Field. It is by the book the definition of magical.

Shadow Lodge

Scavion wrote:
Uh, Bloodrage is supernatural. It is shut down by Antimagic Field. It is by the book the definition of magical.

Yes, but the class itself doesn't actually gain much from using magic, other than self-buffing, so while it is a magical rager, it isn't a magical rager in the sense that it gets mad and starts bending reality to form impossible lightning bolts[which totally disappoints me], and more "Magical" in the same way paladins are "Magical" due to self-buffs via magic.

Silver Crusade

I'm gonna put myself out there and say that rogues are one of the best classes, assuming you know how to play one. Sniping is a difficult and penalty-ridden path, and it takes quite some time to make it effective. Not to say that it can't be done, just use a Drow Cave Sniper and take the three Drow Noble feats. Infinite Deeper Darkness on your arrows allows you to even the score quite quickly. However, rogues do best when they can finish the job on the first attack. That's where archetypes become your best friend. I highly suggest playing a Knife Master/Scout some time, they do insane amounts of sneak attack damage. Not to mention that the majority of the rogue's traditional melee weapons fall under the Knife Master's damage dice bonus (A d6 to a d8 makes a big difference). If played correctly, the rogue can be the deadliest combatant on the battlefield. The problem is that people are looking too much at their hit die. Yes, a d8 isn't fantastic, but a 12-14 Con and the Toughness feat balance it out nicely. And finally, the feat that I have dubbed "a rogue's best friend", Improved Feint. They lose their Dex bonus as a move action, leaving you a standard action to lay on some sneak attack damage. The rogue is a fantastic class, the trick is playing them right.


EvilPaladin wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Uh, Bloodrage is supernatural. It is shut down by Antimagic Field. It is by the book the definition of magical.
Yes, but the class itself doesn't actually gain much from using magic, other than self-buffing, so while it is a magical rager, it isn't a magical rager in the sense that it gets mad and starts bending reality to form impossible lightning bolts[which totally disappoints me], and more "Magical" in the same way paladins are "Magical" due to self-buffs via magic.

Count me as not disappointed. =P

I'm not interested in the "Rage Mage" as the base concept of the Bloodrager. It would however make an awesome archetype.


Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
I'm gonna put myself out there and say that rogues are one of the best classes, assuming you know how to play one.

There are ways to be completely more effective by playing one of the big Rogue replacements like the Alchemist or Bard.

There is in fact no way it is one of the best classes unless that list contains every class in the game.

Silver Crusade

Scavion said wrote:
I'm not interested in the "Rage Mage" as the base concept of the Bloodrager. It would however make an awesome archetype.

It does seem more like an archetype than a class. Or perhaps a prestige, as an arcane counterpart to the Rage Prophet?


Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
It does seem more like an archetype than a class. Or perhaps a prestige, as an arcane counterpart to the Rage Prophet?

Prestige sounds nice if that wouldn't delegate it's power to being less than desirable.

Alexandros Satorum wrote:

Hi.

Your post will be critized by several people that will point htat what you are saying have already been said and proven wrong in the past.

If you truly want to change someons mind you will need something besides "play them right".

Too late.


Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
The rogue is a fantastic class, the trick is playing them right.

Hi.

Your post will be critized by several people that will point htat what you are saying have already been said and proven wrong in the past.

If you truly want to change someons mind you will need something besides "play them right".

Silver Crusade

Scavion said wrote:
Prestige sounds nice if that wouldn't delegate it's power to being less than desirable.

All it needs is a few modifications here and there. Like EvilPaladin said, maybe allow it to use certain spells when raging, or add a metamagic feat to all spells cast during a rage?

Alexandros Satorum said wrote:
If you truly want to change someons mind you will need something besides "play them right".

Yes, I see your point. What I'm trying to say is not that these people don't know what they're doing, it's more of looking at what the rogue has to offer and then looking at how to augment it. Like I said, the Scout and Knife Master archetypes are the perfect compliment to the sneak attack, and it's only aided by Improved Feint. From what I've seen, they compare it to other classes, and that's when the problem arises. You have to isolate the rogue on its own, look at its potential exclusively, and that's when it begins to shine. I revoke my prior statement about the rogue being the best class, as each class is the best in its own right. The key is to isolate it and not force it into unfair comparisons. A fighter or a barbarian is clearly going to outdo a rogue in head-on combat, and the ninja clearly outclasses the rogue for stealth. But when you realize that this class has strategic potential, that's when it becomes useful.


Sen Bloodtalon wrote:


Yes, I see your point. What I'm trying to say is not that these people don't know what they're doing, it's more of looking at what the rogue has to offer and then looking at how to augment it. Like I said, the Scout and Knife Master archetypes are the perfect compliment to the sneak attack, and it's only aided by Improved Feint. From what I've seen, they compare it to other classes, and that's when the problem arises. You have to isolate the rogue on its own, look at its potential exclusively, and that's when it begins to shine. I revoke my prior statement about the rogue being the best class, as each class is the best in its own right. The key is to isolate it and not force it into unfair comparisons. A fighter or a barbarian is clearly going to outdo a rogue in head-on combat, and the ninja clearly outclasses the rogue for stealth. But when you realize that this class has strategic potential, that's when it becomes useful.

I would like to see that scout/nkife master, because I have seen lots of them in the past, and althought they can be Ok it is not like they are in the top 10.


The rogue sucks because most GM's do not have low level sentries who can be killed or knocked out in a single stealthy attack. The rogue sucks because it is depending on skills, which as has been pointed out, tend to become less important by level 7, and almost useless at level 12+.
-Case in point, a 3rd level rogue does 2d6 sneak attack plus weapon damage. He can quickly kill off an entire fort of lv.1 warriors if it is dusk or dawn, especially if they are human (no low light or dark vision). Average Sentry has 9hp.
-DM's often have too many, too tough, ESP sentries for stealth to work well. Granted, I usually have a guard dog, but scent means the dog barks, not that he knows where you are exactly...
-On a max damage roll the 3rd level halfling rogue does 9 points of damage. On a minimum he does 2. Not any different from the magic missile.

Silver Crusade

Alexandros Satorum said wrote:
I would like to see that scout/nkife master, because I have seen lots of them in the past, and althought they can be Ok it is not like they are in the top 10.

I'll have to dig it up, but I should still have it lying around. It's best used in a group where you have others who can draw fire, and it's really useful when there's two of them and one has Greater Feint and the other has Spring Attack. Should I just PM you the character info once I manage to find it?


You know who else has strategic potential? The Bard. You can also go Visisectionist Alchemist and get sneak attack!

The problem with the Rogue is that he's a pure martial with 3/4 BAB. It's hard to hit things with 3/4 BAB, especially if you're using the feats that let you hit hard. The Bard has spells and Inspire Courage to make up for it, the Alchemist has mutagen. The Rogue doesn't get anything like that.

Maybe the Rogue's sneak attack should just be an auto-hit. It's hard enough to set up and that would make it not entirely inferior to the Alchemist.


Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
Alexandros Satorum said wrote:
I would like to see that scout/nkife master, because I have seen lots of them in the past, and althought they can be Ok it is not like they are in the top 10.
I'll have to dig it up, but I should still have it lying around. It's best used in a group where you have others who can draw fire, and it's really useful when there's two of them and one has Greater Feint and the other has Spring Attack. Should I just PM you the character info once I manage to find it?

You can just pot him here.

Silver Crusade

HarbinNick said wrote:
The rogue sucks because most GM's do not have low level sentries who can be killed or knocked out in a single stealthy attack.

Might I suggest looking at the Wound/Vigor points rules? It makes the rogue's sneak attack an infinitely more valuable asset.


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Sen Bloodtalon wrote:


Yes, I see your point. What I'm trying to say is not that these people don't know what they're doing, it's more of looking at what the rogue has to offer and then looking at how to augment it. Like I said, the Scout and Knife Master archetypes are the perfect compliment to the sneak attack, and it's only aided by Improved Feint. From what I've seen, they compare it to other classes, and that's when the problem arises. You have to isolate the rogue on its own, look at its potential exclusively, and that's when it begins to shine. I revoke my prior statement about the rogue being the best class, as each class is the best in its own right. The key is to isolate it and not force it into unfair comparisons. A fighter or a barbarian is clearly going to outdo a rogue in head-on combat, and the ninja clearly outclasses the rogue for stealth. But when you realize that this class has strategic potential, that's when it becomes useful.

The only niche the forums have been able to absolutely factually prove for the Rogue is it's skill power through level 1-5. After that and besides that, they lose out in effectiveness to other classes.

Our comparisons are entirely fair. Intelligent comparisons have only compared the Rogue to his direct competitors for the group slot. Alchemists, Bards, and Trapper Rangers. In most group makeups, these classes fair far more effectively in the Rogue's slot.

Alchemists- Match for Skills(Due to being Int Focused), can gain full Sneak Attack, brings spells to the party.

Bards- Match for Skills(Versatile Performance), boosts party effectiveness and can be a solid combatant in of itself, brings spells to the party.

Trapper Ranger- Slightly less Skills, gets more skill boosts, far better combatant(BAB, HD, AC, Favored Enemy and gets an Animal Companion)

Shadow Lodge

Fun Anecdote:I remember playing with one rogue who, in one round, was doing more damage to anything he was close to than even the most optimized anything except for maybe a Vivisectionist or smiting paladin could come close to. He was dropping Crippling Strike on top of buckets of d6's and at the same time was hiding in shadows to well to be seen [he was 13, and dropped a few levels in shadow dancer]. We convinced the townsfolk that the shadows he hid in were really the Vashta Nerada eating people in the night. Hehe, we did have a semi-flexible GM and he kinda was about 10x as optimized as the Tarrasque itself, but still it was hilarious how the town council reacted when we announced that "The Shadows are Eating your People!". Of course, when the build failed a will save for dominate after rolling a 19 on the die, one-rounded the paladin, and then subsequently was slaughtered by the confused barbarian, we kinda burned the character sheet and buried the ashes, so I can't exactly post the build. Still, it was a fun time.

Silver Crusade

Shoot, I can't find him. I can modify an existing one quickly though.

Scavion said wrote:
Alchemists- Match for Skills(Due to being Int Focused), can gain full Sneak Attack, brings spells to the party.

Yes, you do get full sneak attack with the Vivisectionist archetype, but the spells are purely for extracts and aren't usable by anyone besides the alchemist. There are discoveries to amend this of course. The other two are spot on. You might like one of my players. He absolutely loves Bards.


Spells you use to buff yourself are better than no spells at all.

Also there's a discovery that lets you pass them out.

Silver Crusade

Arachnofiend said wrote:
Also there's a discovery that lets you pass them out.

Yes, the Infusion discovery, if memory serves.

Grand Lodge

Commoner is a great class.

You just have to play it right, and have fun!

Silver Crusade

As for the Knife Master/Scout, here's the general outline:
Race: Tiefling
Rogue/5
Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 11
Int: 16
Wis: 13
Cha: 13
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Greater Feint
Equipment: Studded Leather Armor, Short Sword

From there, just focus on Bluff and Acrobatics (to feint and avoid AoO)
For the record, I do quite enjoy this conversation. Not often I get to talk with people who actually understand this.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Commoner is a great class.

You just have to play it right, and have fun!

Sarcasm aside, remember when they said that the rogue was Pathfinder Hard Mode? They were wrong. Commoner is hard mode.


The difference is that Paizo didn't build the Commoner as a PC class.

EDIT: If you're using the default Tiefling your build isn't legal. Tieflings have a -2 to charisma so to buy that you're looking at 29 points.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Commoner is a great class.

You just have to play it right, and have fun!

It's the best class in its own right, just like all the others. You just have to play it right.

Remember back in 3.5 where a level 1 Commoner could solo a Tarrasque by using a Candle of Invocation?

Silver Crusade

Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
Arachnofiend said wrote:
Also there's a discovery that lets you pass them out.
Yes, the Infusion discovery, if memory serves.

Yeah, an Alchemist blows a 'sneaky' Rogue out of the water. As long as you're not going social *COUGH*STUDENT OF PHILOSOPHY*COUGH*, an Alchemist and their extracts/infusions can cover any Rogue job. Bonus points for crazy ability to just make alchemical items (which also help with a Rogue's job) on the cheap and by themselves.

I wouldn't play an Alchemist in a game with a Rogue in it just due to the ease of eclipsing the class in a heartbeat.


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Arachnofiend wrote:

You know who else has strategic potential? The Bard. You can also go Visisectionist Alchemist and get sneak attack!

The problem with the Rogue is that he's a pure martial with 3/4 BAB. It's hard to hit things with 3/4 BAB, especially if you're using the feats that let you hit hard. The Bard has spells and Inspire Courage to make up for it, the Alchemist has mutagen. The Rogue doesn't get anything like that.

Maybe the Rogue's sneak attack should just be an auto-hit. It's hard enough to set up and that would make it not entirely inferior to the Alchemist.

As a thought, maybe take a precedent from the monk's Flurry of Blows, and say that rogues count as full BAB when sneak attacking?

Silver Crusade

Chengar Qordath wrote:
As a thought, maybe take a precedent from the monk's Flurry of Blows, and say that rogues count as full BAB when sneak attacking?

That would work quite well. As for the rogue in general, I have now concluded that it's best to avoid combat in general. The point of sneak attack is to end the fight before it starts.

Arachnofiend wrote:
If you're using the default Tiefling your build isn't legal. Tieflings have a -2 to charisma so to buy that you're looking at 29 points.

Yes, well there's a reason for that. I don't use point buy as my stat roll. I prefer 2d6+6 (stupid power monger friend of mine rubbed off on me I guess), and since I don't do any professional campaigns, I don't really concern myself with making duplicates with point buy stats. Sorry for the confusion.


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Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As a thought, maybe take a precedent from the monk's Flurry of Blows, and say that rogues count as full BAB when sneak attacking?
That would work quite well.

Pseudo-full BAB is a bad mechanic and whoever initially drafted that mechanic should feel bad.

Either give them full BAB, or give them some kind of bonus to hit. None of this 'I'm kind of a full BAB class but not really' bullshit.

I actually rather like giving the Rogue full BAB. On its own it doesn't bring the Rogue up to par, but it's a nice start. That being said, there are certainly other options on the table.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Sen Bloodtalon wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As a thought, maybe take a precedent from the monk's Flurry of Blows, and say that rogues count as full BAB when sneak attacking?
That would work quite well.

Pseudo-full BAB is a bad mechanic and whoever initially drafted that mechanic should feel bad.

Either give them full BAB, or give them some kind of bonus to hit. None of this 'I'm kind of a full BAB class but not really' b@*$&+%$.

I'd be fine with just an untyped +1 to hit every 4 levels too. Probably a better solution, in many ways.

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