Do Rogues just flat out suck?


Advice

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Gauthok wrote:

For a rogue sniper:

Hide in this

Kill things with these

For a rogue non-sniper:

Hide in this.
Kill things with these.

This is actually what I expected to be linked to.

Yes, the hut sniper is a hilarious concept. Very VC.


DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
I prefer the shocked look on the rogue's face when the barbarian gets bored, steps up, shoves the rogue aside and simply smashes the trap.
Yeaaah, the trapped dungeons I run, that runs the risk of killing the entire party, including the barbarian, e.g. room is sealed and filled with acid; ceiling drops which crushing the party and prevents them from standing, then the oozes are released; an alchemists room of flammable objects exploding multiple times from differing sources; invisible spiked wall of immense size and weight falls on them.
And yet, somehow, I get the feeling that you'd never be okay with a Rogue rolling Disable Device to solve those traps - kinda making the point moot. ;)
Of course I would be okay with it. The players are meant to overcome. The barbarian smashing it is choosing the option come what may, and not solving it.

What I meant by that is traps like that sound a lot more like, "the group needs to put it's collective heads together and figure out this puzzle-trap" and a lot less like, "if the Rogue makes this one roll we're all okay-trap." ;)

Dark Archive

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Of course I would be okay with it. The players are meant to overcome. The barbarian smashing it is choosing the option come what may, and not solving it.
Quote:

Trap Wrecker

You can smash traps instead of disarming them.

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Disable Device 1 rank, orc.

Benefit: You can attempt to disarm a trap by striking it with a melee weapon instead of making a Disable Device check. As a full-round action, make a melee attack against an Armor Class equal to the trap's Disable Device DC. If you miss, the trap activates. If you hit, roll damage. If this damage is at least half the trap's Disable Device DC, you disable the trap. If this damage is less than half the trap's Disable Device DC, the trap activates. You can only attempt this on nonmagical traps. You must be able to reach some part of the trap with your attack in order to use this feat. At the GM's discretion, some traps may not be susceptible to this feat.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Human Rogue 10 

Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception 
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim, 
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points): 
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks) 
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks) 
Climb + 19 (10 ranks) 
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks) 
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks) 
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks) 
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks) 
Stealth +21 (10 ranks) 
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1. 
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.

You need several things to do that.

First, you need to surprise your ennemies. That means that if your target manage its perception check against the group, he gets to participate in the surprise round, and by such (=> he acted), you lose a whole round of sneak attack. The perception range for CR 10 encounter is between +14 and +28, so that is not that unlikely.
Moreover, your target(s) don't need to detect you to get into the surprise round, detecting your mates is enough.
Even by yourself, without anyone to cripple your stealth, you probably have only 50% of getting a surprise round, and something like 60 to 70% of acting first.

Then, you need to be at 30 feet or less, because otherwise you lose 10 damage per hit. That means you have to figure a way to sneak yourself at charge range of creatures that can properly exterminate you. 30ft is also the range of most supersenses creatures get (night vision, blindsense, ...), so it can be very tricky. That also suppose the target creature doesn't get cover itself (environnement, a mook between you and your target), because otherwise your attack bonus drop a lot.

Finally, when your ennemies' turn arrive, you're dead. 50 HP average, 20 AC (flat footed 11) means very fragile and low saves (+4 fortitude, +4 will) means you can be affected by pretty much any spells that matters.

You forgot to include rapid shot penalties (-2 to all attacks for the round, only for the first round, not the surprise round).

The surprise round can obviously considered to be granted against most ennemies. That is good.

Now, the next round (the 1st round). Your damage can be as high as 1d8+5d6+18 per attack (your target was surprised and you acted before it in the 1st round, all by being 30ft or less from it from the beginning), and as low as 1d8+8 (if your target got to act in the surprise round, even after you, or your target got a better initiative in the first round).

Many ennemies have DR by this point, and you get only through Magic/DR. That can reduce your damage per hit from 5 to 15 easily.

I must admit I'm impressed. With a lot of luck, against AC 22 or less ennemies (flat-footed), you CAN actually do 120 damage in 1 round + surprise. But in order to do that, you had to sacrifice pretty much everything else.
And you can do that only once in your lifetime.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Human Rogue 10 

Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception 
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim, 
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points): 
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks) 
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks) 
Climb + 19 (10 ranks) 
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks) 
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks) 
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks) 
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks) 
Stealth +21 (10 ranks) 
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1. 
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.

OK, finally someone posts some actual numbers. Let's have a look at what you are actually achieving.

You are attacking at +17/17/17/12 IF and only if you are within 30' and you have available haste rounds from your boots. Your base damage is actually 1d8+9, not 18. The Sniper's Goggles damage bonus only applies when you are within 30' and only if you can get sneak attack. However you attack bonus fails to account for a likely -8 penalty to hit from hooting into melee and soft cover provided by any allies. Given you have no way of generating sneak attack damage yourself then you have to have two melee in to have any hope of doing so. You are however missing a feat so you could pick up Precise Shot

The downside is your defences are pretty awful. Your AC is 20 so a simple CR10 Fire Giant is hitting you on a 2/4/9 (or 2/7/12 with power attack). At 3d6+24 damage per hit you are looking at an average of around 77 damage per round if it gets a full attack. You have 63HP assuming you put your favoured bonus into them. Assuming it only gets one attack from a charge you are looking at a DC 31 acrobatics check to get out of reach and are then limited to one attack. Pretty much a coin flip. You can only go 15 feet, if you try to move further then you cannot make the acrobatics check. Then you die when it charges you on the next round.

You have no means of overcoming any form of DR. You also cannot ignore opportunity attacks from shooting as you cannot take Point Blank Master.

Your saves are even worse. +4 fortitude and will at level 10 is simply awful. Expect to spend many combats doing quite literally nothing as you are stunned, mind controlled, nauseated or turned to stone. Something as simple as a CR5 basilisk has a 50% chance to petrify you.

Overall I have real doubts as to just how this character would ever survive to reach level 10.


I don't think it's very honest criticism to point out that a class with low saves has... low saves.

Yes, it's super-lame that Reflexes is the only good save Rogues get - sucks to be them.
But it serves no purpose to point out that they're going to be failing a lot of Fort/Will saves as if it's the player's fault.

All those Fort saves you accuse the Rogue player of failing? So will the Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/etc/etc/etc.
Ditto Will saves and appropriate Will-low classes.

Is low saves a real problem for Rogues? Sure. But it's not the player's fault - especially when assuming a point-buy system that leaves very little left over to increase Con or Wis.


This is great! Threads like this are what intrigued me sufficiently to make up a rogue for a new game I'm joining. Should be a lot of fun.


Neo2151 wrote:

Is low saves a real problem for Rogues? Sure. But it's not the player's fault - especially when assuming a point-buy system that leaves very little left over to increase Con or Wis.

It is the player fault if the does not take action in order to make his save better.


Neo2151 wrote:

I don't think it's very honest criticism to point out that a class with low saves has... low saves.

Yes, it's super-lame that Reflexes is the only good save Rogues get - sucks to be them.
But it serves no purpose to point out that they're going to be failing a lot of Fort/Will saves as if it's the player's fault.

All those Fort saves you accuse the Rogue player of failing? So will the Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/etc/etc/etc.
Ditto Will saves and appropriate Will-low classes.

Is low saves a real problem for Rogues? Sure. But it's not the player's fault - especially when assuming a point-buy system that leaves very little left over to increase Con or Wis.

Wizards (and rogues who want to reduce chance of being petrified, poisoned, ...) have much higher CON than 10. They also have better protection items (not a mere +1 protection cloak at level 10). Moreover, they can take a +1 fortitude trait and/or +2 fortitude feat.

A level 10 wizard should have +9 to +11 in fortitude, not +4.

Ditto for will saves except you replace wizard by fighters. Almost every fighter I ever saw got Iron will (+2 to will save) and/or the trait that grant +2 will saves against enchantment effects, not to mention the cloak. You should look at a +8 to +12 to will saves, depending on your wisdom and if you took both iron will and the trait.
Nowhere close to +4.

The same goes for AC : a fighter have a lot more AC, and a wizard have plain miss chance effects. Also for HP : a level 10 wizard have more HP than this rogue.

Yes, in some conditions, this rogue can do a lot of damage. But if the damage he deals are not enough to kill his target, the rogue is dead before the first round ends (second round if he is lucky).


Avh wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Avh wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Right : )

If the problem is not the skills, is not 1x1 fights, and is not try make fight like barbarians so i don´t see any problem.

At level 10 an archer rogue easily begins the first round a can make a average damage of 120, that make, if the creature don´t die, at least rogue make their part at combat.

I guess that many people would know how to do that against an appropriate level creature.

Do you have at least a skeleton build ? (just a few ideas on feats, ability scores and eventually skill ranks you need, not a full build).

It's not so much the build, just do a basic archery build and situation. If you are with in 30' and you beat your opponents initiative on the 1st round, easily done with some rogue talents like surprise attack or snapshot. Then the rogue get their sneak attack on a surprise round if any and the 1st round of combat. It works but is situational. I rarely find you are 30' from a target when combat begins. Now if there is way to extend that 30' range for sneak attacks then this could get very deadly. I think I saw something that extended it by 5' but I can't think what it was.
Still curious to know what feats/items/class features you used. I'm pretty sure the rogue can't even reach half that at level 10.

A rogue can reach that level of damage by level 9 assuming they can hit. The flat footed AC will need to be pretty low. That be using Rapid shot, manyshot(no sneak attack on second arrow), and deadly aim which means they are at -4 to hit. If it all hits it get pretty close to 120. Problem is they won't hit with all the attacks as on 15 pt buy that would be about +12/+12/+7 as the average flat footed AC for CR appropriate encounters is 18-24.


voska66 wrote:
Avh wrote:
Still curious to know what feats/items/class features you used. I'm pretty sure the rogue can't even reach half that at level 10.
A rogue can reach that level of damage by level 9 assuming they can hit. The flat footed AC will need to be pretty low. That be using Rapid shot, manyshot(no sneak attack on second arrow), and deadly aim which means they are at -4 to hit. If it all hits it get pretty close to 120. Problem is they won't hit with all the attacks as on 15 pt buy that would be about +12/+12/+7 as the average flat footed AC for CR appropriate encounters is 18-24.

And that it all assumes sneak attacks, which can be tricky to set up with ranged attacks after the surprise round.


Kudaku wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Avh wrote:
Still curious to know what feats/items/class features you used. I'm pretty sure the rogue can't even reach half that at level 10.
A rogue can reach that level of damage by level 9 assuming they can hit. The flat footed AC will need to be pretty low. That be using Rapid shot, manyshot(no sneak attack on second arrow), and deadly aim which means they are at -4 to hit. If it all hits it get pretty close to 120. Problem is they won't hit with all the attacks as on 15 pt buy that would be about +12/+12/+7 as the average flat footed AC for CR appropriate encounters is 18-24.
And that it all assumes sneak attacks, which can be tricky to set up with ranged attacks after the surprise round.

And for a rogue that dies from a cold, or by sneezing.

Such a character is too fragile for a group of adventurers.


that isnt an optimized build..you always can improve.

Let´s change that:
Human Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.

For that:
Human Sanctified Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 24 Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8 (dual talent trait)
Haste +18 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +18 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
1st Attack +18 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
2nd Attack +13 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Indomitable Faith +1 will
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow), Point Blank Shot, Greater fortitude, Toughness,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack target with concelment), Weapon Training, combat trick(Rapid Shot), Feat(Iron will)
Saves:For:+9 Ref:+13 Will:+10 Hp:10d8+40 (favorite class +1hp)

saves Ok, hp Ok, keep the damage low without sneak what is normal but with sneak is the best raged damage you will find at level 10.

I see someone post a Ranger build and even with favorite enemy bonus the damage still worse that the so underpowered rogue, and sneak attack will occur far more times than you will find an favorite enemy.

Rogue has defensive problems, of course..a class with only one good save..and that save is reflexes is a problem. but low AC, low hp, low saves is not only rogue problems..you will find that at wizards, sorcerers, oracles too...is just question of balance you char.


Neo2151 wrote:

I don't think it's very honest criticism to point out that a class with low saves has... low saves.

Yes, it's super-lame that Reflexes is the only good save Rogues get - sucks to be them.
But it serves no purpose to point out that they're going to be failing a lot of Fort/Will saves as if it's the player's fault.

All those Fort saves you accuse the Rogue player of failing? So will the Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/etc/etc/etc.
Ditto Will saves and appropriate Will-low classes.

Is low saves a real problem for Rogues? Sure. But it's not the player's fault - especially when assuming a point-buy system that leaves very little left over to increase Con or Wis.

It's not the layer's fault... It's the class' fault. Which is exactly what we are discussing here. The faults of the class itself, not players who choose to play it.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Rogue has defensive problems, of course..a class with only one good save..and that save is reflexes is a problem. but low AC, low hp, low saves is not only rogue problems..you will find that at wizards, sorcerers, oracles too...is just question of balance you char.

[weird : I find +7 will, +8 fortitude and +15 reflexes. But I may be wrong here]

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC (actually, even without needing AC, they have pretty much the same than your rogue at a minimum) : They are usually behind other characters and not at charge range.

And your rogue have pretty much no luck of doing sneak attack at range at the exception of surprise + 1st round.

Even then, doing sneak attack is not granted (creatures encountered by a level 10 rogue will be very likely to at least act during the surprise round, and so won't be flat footed the first round). It's even worse in the fact that you will need to do multiple stealth check to be in position (and your party be several hundred feet away to improve your chance of surprising them).

And when you're in the situation where you CAN do your trick, you can have obstacles that are between you and your target (a mook, a barrier, ...), creatures that are immune to sneak attack (a few, but still exists, including by at least a couple PC classes), DR (a lot, and you can't get through it), concealment (you can SA those creatures, but still have the miss chance), ...

The situation is even worse ! As you need to have a clear path between you and your target (you can't really afford malus to your attack/bonus to its AC), the target can freely charge you or range attack you easily.

With your 20 AC (19 with the second build), you will die quickly (1 round with the first build, maybe 2 rounds with the second).

Actually, in real situations, your rogue (first or second version) wouldn't have reached level 10 in any way. And he would die in pretty much any encounter of CR appropriate ennemies.

A non optimized fighter will have your AC at level 1 (or 2 if not AC oriented), more HP (without toughness) and very close damage per round (or much much higher damage if you can't SA). And he neither need to be at charge range to do them nor place conditions on the victim.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

I see someone post a Ranger build and even with favorite enemy bonus the damage still worse that the so underpowered rogue, and sneak attack will occur far more times than you will find an favorite enemy.

You forget to mention the part when the ranger ignore the -4 penalty from firing in melee and the -4 penalty from cover, and the fact of instant enemy 2 times per day.


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

I see someone post a Ranger build and even with favorite enemy bonus the damage still worse that the so underpowered rogue, and sneak attack will occur far more times than you will find an favorite enemy.

You forget to mention the part when the ranger ignore the -4 penalty from firing in melee and the -4 penalty from cover, and the fact of instant enemy 2 times per day.

And level 10 is a bad level for combattants, as is level 5 and level 15.


Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.

I don´t need to do my "trick" always, i´m play at a group and the group support the rogue the same way that support other class when the class main combat form don´t work.

I don´t see the fighter doing a close damage, and i bet a char that has 4 knowledge skills max ranked and still left twice the fighter points in other skills will be more useful.

And again.. i´m not saying that are wrong complain about rogues, it is just people are too exaggerated.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.

I've done it. I've seen others do it. Without dying.


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TarkXT wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.

I've done it. I've seen others do it. Without dying.

Mirror image.

BAM! Better "AC" than a fighter.


TarkXT wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.

I've done it. I've seen others do it. Without dying.

nice, because i play rogues and see others playing rogues without dying too.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.

I've done it. I've seen others do it. Without dying.
nice, because i play rogues and see others playing rogues without dying too.

Me too. But none of that actually helps your argument. Survival is not the same as success or balance.

Shadow Lodge

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
low AC, low hp, low saves is not only rogue problems..you will find that at wizards, sorcerers, oracles too

There's an app or two for that


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.

I already explained why : wizards (and other caster classes) are far from the fight most of the time, with allies between them and their ennemy(ies) (so already a +4 AC), without even accounting for protection spells (like Mirror image). A level 10 wizard should have around 18-20 AC the whole day, and something like 22-24 AC in tactical group combat.

That's why I said that someone in frontline/charge range who MUST have a clear line to shoot correctly should have much higher AC to survive, because he will be a much easier target to reach.

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
I don´t need to do my "trick" always, i´m play at a group and the group support the rogue the same way that support other class when the class main combat form don´t work.

In combat, your trick works not even 1/4 of the time.

You have low endurance, because very low AC.

You should either specialize in long distance shot (by choosing more bow feats), or try to improve your survivability by increasing your AC.
Actually, you have 1000gp in protection items and more than 40000gp in attack items. It shows a lot my point here.

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
I don´t see the fighter doing a close damage, and i bet a char that has 4 knowledge skills max ranked and still left twice the fighter points in other skills will be more useful.

A standard fighter with ability scores (and equipment) close to yours will have +7 attack bonus over your second build rogue (while deadly aiming at ranged). He doesn't get SA, but gets +6 damage from feats and class features and +6 from deadly aim (for +12 damage, close to 4d6 SA, to compare, and that's always on). And all of his damage are multiplied with critical. He can also use Manyshot with his whole modifiers (not just for 1d8+4).

I repeat, he gets pretty much the same damage, always-on.


Avh wrote:
I repeat, he gets pretty much the same damage, always-on.

And he hits far more often too.

Hell! Even a Ranger with Deadly Aim ends up dealing more damage thanks to having much better accuracy than a similarly built Rogue. Oh, and both Fighters and Rangers can make those Fort saves against SoL effects such as Petrification.


Rangers can also afford the various rather important archery feats which this rogue is missing. No precise shoot, clustered shots, manyshot or point blank master makes for a sad archer. No seeking on the bow doesn't help either and having most of your damage shut down because the target isn't flanked is pretty crap.


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andreww wrote:
Rangers can also afford the various rather important archery feats which this rogue is missing. No precise shoot, clustered shots, manyshot or point blank master makes for a sad archer. No seeking on the bow doesn't help either and having most of your damage shut down because the target isn't flanked is pretty crap.

And they can actually use the bow from longer than 30ft without losing all their damage too. Thus, enjoying one of the advantages of ranged weapons... Range.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
And they can actually use the bow from longer than 30ft without losing all their damage too. Thus, enjoying one of the advantages of ranged weapons... Range.

He did include sniper goggles in his gear.


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The whole debate is pretty interesting, but I think the value of rogues (and monks if you'll let me roll them in) is that they have a niche. This niche is not open combat and it's pretty clear that they weren't ever meant for that.

I'm currently playing in an urban gang war campaign. (In Sharn. We're doing an eberron conversion.) We're playing criminals with hearts of gold (Sorta but not really. At least we're better than the other gangs.) who deal in fencing and smuggling and thievery and gambling. We have to deal with the law all the time and subterfuge and misdirection are absolutely key. As such, our party has 2 rogues, a monk, and an alchemist. I'm playing one of the rogues and I'm a sap adept underhanded rumormonger who uses improvised weapons exclusively. The other rogue fights unarmed. This is all critical because it means our party never wears visible armor or carries any weapons. We can get into parties, clubs, police stations and generally never be suspicious. Even when we do get into serious altercations, we can all talk our ways out. The monk even contributes to our ruses with monstrous sense motive rolls to read body language. Together we keep everything close to the chest. If we ever slip up, the alchemist just burns it all to the ground. It's working for us.

We can also outrun or easily hide from things that are serious threats (of which there are many) and I honestly can't see too many other classes working out as well. We're up against huge organizations so individual combats aren't about defeating our enemies so much as surviving and then hiding bodies or making it look like somebody else killed them or even faking our own deaths. Maybe some cheeky spellcasters would fit into our party, but anybody who relied on ranged would be boned in these tight streets and anybody in heavy armor is just bait for the griffin rider guardsmen.

I think in this situation, rogues are perfect. They're gonna suck in open honest combat, but here they are kings.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
He did include sniper goggles in his gear.

Fair enough... Let me correct my statement...

Lemmy wrote:
And they don't need to spend 1/3 of their WBL on a magic item in order to actually use the bow from longer than 30ft without losing all their damage too. Thus, enjoying one of the advantages of ranged weapons... Range.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
And they can actually use the bow from longer than 30ft without losing all their damage too. Thus, enjoying one of the advantages of ranged weapons... Range.
He did include sniper goggles in his gear.

He did but then he still loses 10 damage per shot if he moves more than 30' away from the target.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Avh wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Rogue has defensive problems, of course..a class with only one good save..and that save is reflexes is a problem. but low AC, low hp, low saves is not only rogue problems..you will find that at wizards, sorcerers, oracles too...is just question of balance you char.

[weird : I find +7 will, +8 fortitude and +15 reflexes. But I may be wrong here]

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC (actually, even without needing AC, they have pretty much the same than your rogue at a minimum) : They are usually behind other characters and not at charge range.

Teleporting, Dimension Dooring, Ethereal Jaunting creatures might have some say in that at the higher levels.


ExposedWires wrote:
I think in this situation, rogues are perfect. They're gonna suck in open honest combat, but here they are kings.

Rogues are certainly going to be better off in those sorts of situations than, say, the Fighter. But the Wizard will have equivalent skill points, the Sorcerer will be far better at social skills, the Bard will be better at social skills and have equivalent skill points, the Inquisitor brings plenty of skills and useful class abilities as does the alchemist all while also being more than capable in combat.

Rogues struggle to be competent in both skills and combat as they actually end up being very stat dependant. They can go the traditional dex route to benefit their key skills but they cannot afford to dump Wisdom or Con. Strength probably ends up going along with Charisma meaning you struggle with the social side. If you go the Strength route to actually be able to do something useful in a fight then you end up looking at dumping Wisdom, never a good idea, or Int meaning you lose much of your benefit in the skills area.

I have been looking at putting together a rogue over the last few days who could contribute effectively in combat while still also hitting the sort of DC's you might need in their traditional skill areas (stealth, disguise, acrobatics, bluff, disable device, perception, escape artist, UMD, Sleight of Hand, Diplomacy/Knowledge: Local). It has actually been immensely frustrating even trying to do it at level 10 when you would expect characters to be able to be competent in their main role.


LazarX wrote:
Avh wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Rogue has defensive problems, of course..a class with only one good save..and that save is reflexes is a problem. but low AC, low hp, low saves is not only rogue problems..you will find that at wizards, sorcerers, oracles too...is just question of balance you char.

[weird : I find +7 will, +8 fortitude and +15 reflexes. But I may be wrong here]

Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC (actually, even without needing AC, they have pretty much the same than your rogue at a minimum) : They are usually behind other characters and not at charge range.

Teleporting, Dimension Dooring, Ethereal Jaunting creatures might have some say in that at the higher levels.

As does wizard spells, if that matters. It's even worse for the rogue, 'cause he can't react once he got caught by a creature with those kind of powers.


LazarX wrote:
Teleporting, Dimension Dooring, Ethereal Jaunting creatures might have some say in that at the higher levels.

Sure, that could be a problem. The Glabrezu uses its action to teleport into melee range with my squishy Sorcerer. Oops, that's not a good place to be. Just as well it cant attack as it has used its standard action. Guess I should defensively dimension door away auto passing the DC23 defensive casting check at level 10. Net effect, we both lost our actions but the rest of my party still get to go.

I wonder what the level 10 rogue posted above does with his +21 acrobatics? With a CMD of 34 that is a 60% chance to fail to tumble away and he is only moving 15' unless he wants to take a -10 or he has Haste active. Next go the demon 5' steps bringing him back within its reach and full attacks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
andreww wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Teleporting, Dimension Dooring, Ethereal Jaunting creatures might have some say in that at the higher levels.
Sure, that could be a problem. The Glabrezu uses its action to teleport into melee range with my squishy Sorcerer. Oops, that's not a good place to be. Just as well it cant attack as it has used its standard action.

Actually I was in that situation. But the demon in question had done thing you might have missed in that calculation.

It teleported/dimension doored invisibly. With that, and it's stealth check, no one noticed it placing itself right in reach of the arcanist and got a surprise move to grab and pin the arcanist in it's mouth.

And there was no way the arcanist in question was going to make the DC 50 check to cast. (High CMB grapplers can be a real PITA) The fight in question was the next to last wave at a PFS Battle Interactive at the 10-11th tier table.


andreww wrote:


Rogues struggle to be competent in both skills and combat as they actually end up being very stat dependant.

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=61196

I dunno, I think I'm doing alright. I'm staying at max rank in all the things that matter and still pulling off combat as well as a one-trick-pony reasonably can.

Your assessment of sorcerers and wizards is pretty good except their ability to react in surprise rounds is bad and their skill at getting in and out of crowded rooms is just tragic. Magical defenses have a look about them that would tip people off that you're anticipating a fight. If you don't already have them active, your first few rounds are going to be spent casting those. That's not very in-and-out. Plus not having any mundane ability to escape is pretty brutal. We're playing at low levels now and probably won't get too far past level 10, so teleportation abilities are limited and getting into a fight, diving out a window, scaling walls to safety and booking it home exhausts spells pretty quick.

We usually tie a rope around the gnome alchemist.


ExposedWires wrote:
andreww wrote:


Rogues struggle to be competent in both skills and combat as they actually end up being very stat dependant.

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=61196

I dunno, I think I'm doing alright. I'm staying at max rank in all the things that matter and still pulling off combat as well as a one-trick-pony reasonably can.

Your assessment of sorcerers and wizards is pretty good except their ability to react in surprise rounds is bad and their skill at getting in and out of crowded rooms is just tragic. Magical defenses have a look about them that would tip people off that you're anticipating a fight. If you don't already have them active, your first few rounds are going to be spent casting those. That's not very in-and-out. Plus not having any mundane ability to escape is pretty brutal. We're playing at low levels now and probably won't get too far past level 10, so teleportation abilities are limited and getting into a fight, diving out a window, scaling walls to safety and booking it home exhausts spells pretty quick.

We usually tie a rope around the gnome alchemist.

Rogue

19 strength
rogue

*eye twitch

Sczarni

Lazar we did the same BI with 2the rogues at level 15-16. We handed the group of high level demons their heads through teamwork. The main damagers were in order (zen archer, ninja, magus, Scout) the bottom damagers were summoner barbarian and paladin.

The magus was a shadowdancer as was the scout. 2.25 rogues

Cheers

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
It teleported/dimension doored invisibly.

How does a glabrezu turn invisible?


Marthkus wrote:

Rogue

19 strength
rogue

*eye twitch

It's part of the gimmick. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a lot of improvised weapons that are finesse-able. Plus the extra 6 damage I'm getting per hit even that out. I really don't look like a rogue in combat, though, to be fair.


ExposedWires wrote:
andreww wrote:


Rogues struggle to be competent in both skills and combat as they actually end up being very stat dependant.

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=61196

I dunno, I think I'm doing alright. I'm staying at max rank in all the things that matter and still pulling off combat as well as a one-trick-pony reasonably can.

Your assessment of sorcerers and wizards is pretty good except their ability to react in surprise rounds is bad and their skill at getting in and out of crowded rooms is just tragic. Magical defenses have a look about them that would tip people off that you're anticipating a fight. If you don't already have them active, your first few rounds are going to be spent casting those. That's not very in-and-out. Plus not having any mundane ability to escape is pretty brutal. We're playing at low levels now and probably won't get too far past level 10, so teleportation abilities are limited and getting into a fight, diving out a window, scaling walls to safety and booking it home exhausts spells pretty quick.

We usually tie a rope around the gnome alchemist.

To begin, you have 25 points instead of the standard 15-20 points, have a disadvantage (for a bonus trait) and are not ranged based.

Even with all that, you have low saves (not abysmal, but low), mid to low AC and very low HP.

Your damage is decent though, but inferior to the one a lvl 4 fighter not optimized for damage is doing : you deals 1d8+17 when he's doing 2d6+15 [+6 STR, +1 weapon, +2 feat, +6 PA], with the same strength score as your rogue, all the time, and with a little better to hit and critical threat.

Grand Lodge

Marthkus wrote:
ExposedWires wrote:
andreww wrote:


Rogues struggle to be competent in both skills and combat as they actually end up being very stat dependant.

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=61196

I dunno, I think I'm doing alright. I'm staying at max rank in all the things that matter and still pulling off combat as well as a one-trick-pony reasonably can.

Your assessment of sorcerers and wizards is pretty good except their ability to react in surprise rounds is bad and their skill at getting in and out of crowded rooms is just tragic. Magical defenses have a look about them that would tip people off that you're anticipating a fight. If you don't already have them active, your first few rounds are going to be spent casting those. That's not very in-and-out. Plus not having any mundane ability to escape is pretty brutal. We're playing at low levels now and probably won't get too far past level 10, so teleportation abilities are limited and getting into a fight, diving out a window, scaling walls to safety and booking it home exhausts spells pretty quick.

We usually tie a rope around the gnome alchemist.

Rogue

19 strength
rogue

*eye twitch

Why don't you like STR Rogues?


Oncoming_Storm wrote:
Why don't you like STR Rogues?

I'm fine with them being a thing. It shouldn't be the arguable ONLY way to make a combat focused rogue.


LazarX wrote:

Actually I was in that situation. But the demon in question had done thing you might have missed in that calculation.

It teleported/dimension doored invisibly. With that, and it's stealth check, no one noticed it placing itself right in reach of the arcanist and got a surprise move to grab and pin the arcanist in it's mouth.

And there was no way the arcanist in question was going to make the DC 50 check to cast. (High CMB grapplers can be a real PITA) The fight in question was the next to last wave at a PFS Battle Interactive at the 10-11th tier table.

See invisibility lasts 10 minutes per level and can be made permanent very cheaply. It is definitely one of the first things mid level characters should be investing in. Getting grappled is horrible for casters, if you aren't a Teleportation School Wizard, Druid with access to huge forms or have one of a small number of Cleric domains I highly recommend maxxing out escape artist, picking up the rather cheap Vestment of Escape and making sure everyone who can keeps a Liberating Command memorised. Even then you also want a Potion of Gaseous Form handy for emergency situations like being grappled by a glabrezu.


ExposedWires wrote:

Your assessment of sorcerers and wizards is pretty good except their ability to react in surprise rounds is bad and their skill at getting in and out of crowded rooms is just tragic. Magical defenses have a look about them that would tip people off that you're anticipating a fight. If you don't already have them active, your first few rounds are going to be spent casting those. That's not very in-and-out. Plus not having any mundane ability to escape is pretty brutal. We're playing at low levels now and probably won't get too far past level 10, so teleportation abilities are limited and getting into a fight, diving out a window, scaling walls to safety and booking it home exhausts spells pretty quick.

We usually tie a rope around the gnome alchemist.

Hmm, not sure this is really accurate. Wizards can easily invest in infiltration based skills, they have skill points coming out of their ears and will be buying an Int headband to boot. Their dex wont be as good as a Rogues but Invisibility giving you a +20 bonus on stealth is making up for that.

I am not sure what you mean by surprise rounds. I expect most characters to max out Perception, it being important to everyone. Eyes of the Eagle should pretty much be handed out to everyone around level 5-6 and Wizards get alertness as a bonus feat. As far as initiative goes the familiar is also likely giving an extra +4 before we even start thinking about something like the Foresight Diviner (always acts in the surprise round, half level to init). Also Wizards get to tank charisma and stil use social skills with the Student of Philosophy trait.

Finally I cant end without mentioning the Int based Seeker Sage Sorcerer which can cover scouting, trap detection, knowledge skills and provide combat and utility all in one package.


ExposedWires wrote:

The whole debate is pretty interesting, but I think the value of rogues (and monks if you'll let me roll them in) is that they have a niche. This niche is not open combat and it's pretty clear that they weren't ever meant for that.

I'm currently playing in an urban gang war campaign. (In Sharn. We're doing an eberron conversion.) We're playing criminals with hearts of gold (Sorta but not really. At least we're better than the other gangs.) who deal in fencing and smuggling and thievery and gambling. We have to deal with the law all the time and subterfuge and misdirection are absolutely key. As such, our party has 2 rogues, a monk, and an alchemist. I'm playing one of the rogues and I'm a sap adept underhanded rumormonger who uses improvised weapons exclusively. The other rogue fights unarmed. This is all critical because it means our party never wears visible armor or carries any weapons. We can get into parties, clubs, police stations and generally never be suspicious. Even when we do get into serious altercations, we can all talk our ways out. The monk even contributes to our ruses with monstrous sense motive rolls to read body language. Together we keep everything close to the chest. If we ever slip up, the alchemist just burns it all to the ground. It's working for us.

We can also outrun or easily hide from things that are serious threats (of which there are many) and I honestly can't see too many other classes working out as well. We're up against huge organizations so individual combats aren't about defeating our enemies so much as surviving and then hiding bodies or making it look like somebody else killed them or even faking our own deaths. Maybe some cheeky spellcasters would fit into our party, but anybody who relied on ranged would be boned in these tight streets and anybody in heavy armor is just bait for the griffin rider guardsmen.

I think in this situation, rogues are perfect. They're gonna suck in open honest combat, but here they are kings.

Already did this a couple of pages ago, but okay.

Classes that can do that kind of campaign beter than the rogue (and monk):
Ranger with urban favored terrain.
Alchemist.
Bard.
Wizard.
Inquisitor.
Ninja.
Note that I man they can do it better. Not just as well. Straight up, laugh at the poor rogue, better.


Avh wrote:

To begin, you have 25 points instead of the standard 15-20 points, have a disadvantage (for a bonus trait) and are not ranged based.

What's your point? I know what the basis for the thread was and was simply pointing out a situation where rogues fit better than others and how that situation really isn't honest combat. I guess I was saying that rogues won't make good combatants in parties that can't find a use for a circumstantial assassin and settings that never test your ability to crawl through a bathroom window or slap the mask off a foreign dignitary at a masquerade ball and steal his little black book while making it look like an accident.

But that post was a few comments higher so it's cool if you didn't associate it with me posting my sheet.

Hell, I guess my whole point is that all the classes that seem to suck just shine in particular campaigns. A fighter in heavy armor would get arrested after our first fight, in my campaign. That's assuming he was even allowed to enter the places our party needs to go wearing full plate and openly carrying large weapons.

The troubling bit is how much more capable certain classes are at coping with different types of campaigns. Rogues getting the short end of that stick by far. If I gotta point out the one game style that they work well in, there is definitely a problem.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Telessar Talimah wrote:

Lazar we did the same BI with 2the rogues at level 15-16. We handed the group of high level demons their heads through teamwork. The main damagers were in order (zen archer, ninja, magus, Scout) the bottom damagers were summoner barbarian and paladin.

The magus was a shadowdancer as was the scout. 2.25 rogues

Cheers

Paladin. Bottom damage dealer. Against demons.

Flagged for trolling.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
andreww wrote:
Rogues struggle to be competent in both skills and combat as they actually end up being very stat dependant.

This is interesting. And it has me thinking.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I've read the thread and at this point am keeping up with it out of momentum. (Plus, the vitriol has dialed back significantly, which makes the discussion much more interesting and enjoyable.) I am of mixed opinion about the Rogue. I don't think they're hopeless, but I do thing that they're one of the 3 or 4 weakest classes in Pathfinder.

Anyway, one of the things that I haven't entirely agreed with you guys about is the Rogue not being the king of skills. Everyone immediately points to the Bard, which is true... at level 10+. For low level games, the neat trick which converts a perform to two other skills hasn't had time to kick in more than once. And since the Bard is probably maxing out another perform skill in anticipation of using it later on, it's not as overflowing with skills as some of the posters here have made it out to be. I'm running a bard in Skull and Shackles right now, and skill allocation has been a serious challenge for me. I'm dancing the delicate dance between "useful skills now" and "these skills will be redundant later so max out perform instead." Meanwhile the party Rogue is using a Kitsune archetype that encourages intelligence, allowing him to cover all the face skills I'm covering with the same or better modifiers and the traditional dex skills, some knowledge, and even maxed out profession (sailor) and (cook). Watching him beat my character bloody in the "anything you can do I can do better" game has given my read-through of this thread something of a bitterly ironic twist.

So yes, I recognize that the Bard gets more skills when you can build him at level 10 and that third versatile performance plus skill boosting spells have kicked in. Building him from level 1 is an entirely different story.

But even so, reading this thread (and the above quote in particular) has taught me that there really is no such thing as the king of skills. The bard is typically going to be the best social skill guy, because they have enough skill points to max out the 4 socials (plus some) and the class encourages charisma. Wizards are typically going to be the best knowledge monkey, because all knowledges are class skills and wizards have high Int. Rogues are typically going to be the best Dex skill user, because most rogues have decent to high dex and its thematic. Clerics are going to be the best sentries. Fighters and other melee classes will have high athletic bonuses like swim and climb (though ACP is going to knock this back down to a humble number). Noone is 'best' at everything, and everyone has something to give.

With all that said... I recognize the problem. The Rogue's skillset and abilities will typically have them scouting out in front. The lower landspeed of the heavily armored melee guys combined with the Rogue's weak defenses and poor solo offense will often make for a dead character.

Is there a problem? In an optimized game, absolutely. Is the Rogue a good scout? Not really. Is he essential as a trapfinder? No*. Is he the King of skills? Maybe not, but he ain't the Pauper of skills either.

*Regarding Trapfinding:
Folks on these boards toss the Trapfinding trait around a lot, but that's a campaign trait specific to a module.

1. I have yet to talk to a GM in person that doesn't snort derisively at the idea and/or disallow the trait immediately. The two who didn't regard it as "blatant cheese" said that a trait specific to a single module did not apply in their AP or custom world.

2. Campaign traits are the single trait type most likely to be assigned directly by the GM based on your character's background. I've both given them as a GM and received them as a player (and I'm refering to two different player groups btw- not two instances within the same circle). So the players may not be free to take the trait they want in that area.

Both of which are to say: using the trapfinder trait to slap the ability on any class is still a suspect practice in my area. Of course, there are plenty of archetypes that have trapfinding other than straight Rogue. But the interesting thing is that most (if not all) of those archetypes lends themselves quite well to scouting. So even if the Rogue class isn't being used as your scout, the Rogue archetype (the idea of the rogue) is. Giving out the trapfinding trait to any and all classes? That just feels disrespectful somehow. :/

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