I'm very interested in some thematic or mechanical niches that you feel are missing for evil characters. What builds would you like to see that don't quite fit well into existing materials? What thematic angles are under-represented by the axis of evil?
This is a tough question, because ALL villains can be made with existing material.
NPCs aren't as limited or progression restricted as PCs. Heck my lvl 9 party just fought a 19 HD stone giant necromancer. And that was in a Paizo AP.
Thematic is the toughie. Except in truly odd cases humans even the deepest villains do not see themselves as villains. Nazis thought they were the good guys. Witch hunters were proud of their jobs etc. We have the convenience of bad guys that know they are evil. But if you want to really switch it up once in a while you can have humans who believe they are good like the king in 'Dragonslayer' cooperating willingly or unwillingly with creatures who believe they are evil like dragons or drow because they believe it is necessary or for the greater good.
Paladins make fantastic tragic villains. Bonus points if the circumstances allow them to be the villain without breaking their code.
Just mining for ideas here. I think it would be awesome to see some straightforward mechanics (not cobbling together multiclass characters) for a dark cavalier riding a wyvern, for example. I know it can be accomplished via multiclassing, but I'm also looking for ideas that are harder to make work.
There are rules for a wyvern animal companion? O_O
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Paladins make fantastic tragic villains. Bonus points if the circumstances allow them to be the villain without breaking their code.
Think Buzz Lightyear's role in the first Toy Story movie - true, he was more of an Ancient Greek "antagonist" than what's normally thought of in the contemporary Western world as a "villain," but the concept is still useful as a sort of (for want of a better word) springboard for a villainous Paladin.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Also, for those who haven't already, this is just another reason to play Planescape: Torment. Study carefully its story: It's RIDDLED with ideas for truly weird (and potentially chilling) villains in both the thematic and mechanical, as well as no doubt other, senses.
Find spells that do really weird, niche things that no PC would actually want to use.
Juxtapose the collaboration of two monsters in an odd way. I always wanted to make a mob boss-type of villain that's some kind of stone giant immune to petrification. He has a harem of loyal medusa, blind monk body guards, and a pet dracolisk named Rocky.
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I would love to see more villains with non-physical power. The politically connected mob boss, the corrupt politician, or the false religious leader. Physically, they are no match for the PC's but they are protected by laws, position, lack of hard evidence, etc. That could make for a really frustrating campaign but some players would really dig it.
Likewise, I would like to see a campaign that really puts some of the classic shape shifting monsters to good use. The fact that there are creatures out there that can look like anything or anyone is really quite frightening when you think about it but I have never seen it done and certainly not done as the centerpiece of the story. I think monsters like doppelgangers get ignored because the logistics of it are so difficult.
Mike, can you go into more detail about your shapeshifting monsters? I'd like to properly understand what you've got going on.
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I'm very interested in some thematic or mechanical niches that you feel are missing for evil characters. What builds would you like to see that don't quite fit well into existing materials? What thematic angles are under-represented by the axis of evil?
What would I really like to see from my villains?
Answer: Round 4.
Well, I've always found the concept of a monster that can look like anyone to be terrifying. You see this a lot in movies (the Thing, invasion of the body snatchers, etc.) and in fantasy novels but you rarely (if ever) see it in published D&D/Pathfinder modules.
I think the main problem is the difficulty of Player v. Player and GM control of PC's that comes with body-snatching.
There is an example of this as the backstory for a location in the Balder's Gate video game. There is an abandoned trap filled castle that you eventually find out was the fortress of a powerful adventurer who went mad as he couldn't tell friend from foe because of a concerted long term assault by a group of doppelgangers.
I think if done right this could form the basis for an awesome horror/intrigue adventure. I see shape changing bad guys taking on multiple personas to frustrate and eventually drive the PC's to a place where they can't trust anyone and don't know friend from foe.
How do you think you might want to play through that if you were the villain, Mike? If you got to play in an evil game, and that was the kind of character that you wanted to play, how would you approach it? What would you want to do?
I ask because narrative villains are very different from player-driven villains.
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I would like to see a campaign where all the clues as to the final villain point to a Paladin. Then, upon fighting him, the PC's realize the Paladin is just a pawn to his "assistant" who, once the PC's convince to stop fighting, they have to fight. The fun bit of this all, is that the source of all of the campaign's problems is caused by this one assistant, who is the world's smartest first-level Commoner. The PC's "lose" the campaign if the commoner gets out alive, as then he moves on to create havoc in another part of the world.
EDIT:For a more general point, low-level evil weak people who are convincing powerful good people to work towards evil goals unintentionally.
How do you think you might want to play through that if you were the villain, Mike? If you got to play in an evil game, and that was the kind of character that you wanted to play, how would you approach it? What would you want to do?
I ask because narrative villains are very different from player-driven villains.
I think I would do a combination, mainly narrative but with a little player driven thrown in.
1. I would set up the adventure like any other with a BBEG (hopefully one with a special weakness like werewolves and silver).
2. Then I would have at some point early in the adventure the PC's actions bringing the shape-shifters into play. (perhaps they raid an ancient tomb and unknowingly release doppelgangers for instance.)
3. I would then have a timeline for the doppelgangers replacing NPC's and even the BBEG. Thus slowly overtime many NPC's friend and foe would be replaced.
4. Finally, I would have the PC's think they are about to confront the BBEG. For instance they have all of their silver weapons ready to fight the werewolves and bang they are totally wrong and none of their plans work.
5. The PC's have to figure out what has gone wrong, likely by returning to the beginning to seek new clues and confront this new evil all the while not knowing who or what is real.
Anyway it would be pretty complex but fun I think.
I would love to see more villains with non-physical power. The politically connected mob boss, the corrupt politician, or the false religious leader. Physically, they are no match for the PC's but they are protected by laws, position, lack of hard evidence, etc. That could make for a really frustrating campaign but some players would really dig it.
I'd like a villain like that. Someone the PC's could easily destroy in a fight, but getting to that point is what is difficult. A highly intelligent, devious villain with little to no combat or magic skills but can still completely ruin your life via Set ups, assassinations, forcing merchants not to trade with you, and etc.
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I'd like to see more BBEG villains winning.
Treat them like a PC. Have them "leveling up", gaining powers, moving around, defeating other parties, recruiting allies. Let the PC's hear about them throughout the plot, becoming more powerful. Give the PC's some motivation to get to them and defeat them. Create a sense of urgency.
Knowing that the BBEG is a static level X type Y Class Z cardboard cutout that's just sitting in a lair, watching the clock for "Boss Fight Time" to come around so he can get his teeth kicked in is...boring. And very common.
I often (not always mind you) like villains that you just don't see coming, even though you know they exist.
For example, a serial killer who is so good at lying and disguising himself, that he could be standing right next to you and you wouldn't even think anything of it.
Perhaps an warrior that has killed so thoroughly, that no one has even been able to hear that he teleports around to assassinate his enemies.
Something that when the player comes across them, they only just then realize that they could be in very big trouble, maybe even in over their heads or even just a nice plot twist.
Thematic is the toughie. Except in truly odd cases humans even the deepest villains do not see themselves as villains.
I would disagree with this in Pathfinder. In the real world many people or groups the mass populous considers evil/villinous may have not thought of themselves that way, true, but in Pathfinder worlds morality can be an actual tangible creature or substance.
Their moral system, while based on real life (like everything in the game to some extent) is radically different in the fact that there are creatures and powers that overtly act on the world that are made up of actual evil such as Demons, Devils, Evil gods/outsiders, anything with the evil descriptor, etc.
Additionally, vastly unlike out own reality, there are entire cultures and civilizations that are evil and know darn well they are (the drow are a perfect example) and don't care about even trying to be good.
While I will state that the 'evil that thinks it is good' would still exist in these worlds as well, it may be far less likely since parts of the world accept and embrace evil as a valid form of civilization and evil can actually be incarnated in creatures and beings. This would have drastic and far reaching effects on how the world views morality and ethics that would be seriously divergent from our own.
Especially one where technology has stagnated for so long that fast mass communication and media, and therefore equivalent education, has never developed. Such things have far reaching impact on a worlds view of morality.
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All of what you have said are things I'd like to see from a fluff point of view. However, what I'd like to see -mechanically- is an archtype, or heck, maybe even class, for a "corrupt priest" type who is a member of a good-aligned deity's faith yet is an evil/corrupt individual. The Catholic church of medieval Europe was littered with clergy members who "served" a obviously good-aligned God/faith, yet they themselves where more concerned with worldly power and wealth then what they actually preached, and where clearly lawful(or heck, maybe even neutral, depending) evil. Likewise, many followers of faiths that would worship a benevolent God have, historically, fought bloody wars in the name of their faith and showed great intolerance, both of which scream -evil- aligned. Thus, I'd LOVE to see a cleric archtype(or heck, alternate class if necessary) that allowed evil worshipers of good deities so it would be possible to have corrupt clergy members and/or intolerant knights templar types within good-aligned churches.
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Truly twisted individuals. I feel like too many villains are fluff villains that might sleep with a teddy bear and have a snuggle blanket....I want a villain who feels like they have bed sheets made out of the leathered skin of their victims. Villains who feel like they have their mother stuffed and mounted in their living room.
Something dark and twisted that leaves the player saying "lord, what just happened?!?!" "Thank god we stopped that guy"
Also there needs to be a flesh warping villain who is all human centipede with an entire village.
All of what you have said are things I'd like to see from a fluff point of view. However, what I'd like to see -mechanically- is an archtype, or heck, maybe even class, for a "corrupt priest" type who is a member of a good-aligned deity's faith yet is an evil/corrupt individual. The Catholic church of medieval Europe was littered with clergy members who "served" a obviously good-aligned God/faith, yet they themselves where more concerned with worldly power and wealth then what they actually preached, and where clearly lawful(or heck, maybe even neutral, depending) evil. Likewise, many followers of faiths that would worship a benevolent God have, historically, fought bloody wars in the name of their faith and showed great intolerance, both of which scream -evil- aligned. Thus, I'd LOVE to see a cleric archtype(or heck, alternate class if necessary) that allowed evil worshipers of good deities so it would be possible to have corrupt clergy members and/or intolerant knights templar types within good-aligned churches.
The problem with those villainous archetypes, at least for Good faiths, is that when such situations occur, there is a good chance of said corrupted holy men suddenly waking up to an Angel/Archon/Azata/Agathion in their face yelling "CUT THAT OUT!!"
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All of what you have said are things I'd like to see from a fluff point of view. However, what I'd like to see -mechanically- is an archtype, or heck, maybe even class, for a "corrupt priest" type who is a member of a good-aligned deity's faith yet is an evil/corrupt individual. The Catholic church of medieval Europe was littered with clergy members who "served" a obviously good-aligned God/faith, yet they themselves where more concerned with worldly power and wealth then what they actually preached, and where clearly lawful(or heck, maybe even neutral, depending) evil. Likewise, many followers of faiths that would worship a benevolent God have, historically, fought bloody wars in the name of their faith and showed great intolerance, both of which scream -evil- aligned. Thus, I'd LOVE to see a cleric archtype(or heck, alternate class if necessary) that allowed evil worshipers of good deities so it would be possible to have corrupt clergy members and/or intolerant knights templar types within good-aligned churches.The problem with those villainous archetypes, at least for Good faiths, is that when such situations occur, there is a good chance of said corrupted holy men suddenly waking up to an Angel/Archon/Azata/Agathion in their face yelling "CUT THAT OUT!!"
This is true. That said, you can get a similar effect just having a priest of an Evil God (Norgorber is good for this) infiltrate a Good church claiming to be a Priest of their God. There are various spells and other ways to aid in such a deception, including the whole Infiltrator Archetype for Inquisitor, who can even cast Good spells while pretending to be Good.
Or just have them be an Evil priest of a non-Evil God. Evil priests of Pharasma, Abadar and Nethys can fit this role pretty easily most places in the Inner Sea, and those of Gorum, Calistrias, Irori, and Gozreh work pretty well in many locations depending on the God's prominence.
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Truly twisted individuals....
Also there needs to be a flesh warping villain who is all human centipede with an entire village.
Two words: Mad Tailor.
I would like the bad guys to behave more intelligently (at least when they are intelligent bad guys). Several times the bad guys in modules/AP’s/scenarios have a moderately decent intelligence and wisdom, are capable of running some illegal operation, fooling the authorities, dealing with the competition, etc… But when the PC’s get there; there are no guards, no alerting traps or triggers, and horrible tactics listed.
How can anyone believe mister evil spymaster bard is running this espionage organization, buy/hires golems/guards, Everyone is terrified of opposing him?!?
But all those guards/golems are all on the outer perimeter (no one close enough to help him or for him to hear them get eliminated, the only trap is silent and not very serious, he has no escape route, and he will stick around to fight-to-the-finish what is clearly a losing battle!
Some of my favorite 'bad guys', either as GM or player have been.
- Gnome rogue / illusionist
His entire village was wiped out – side effect of player actions fighting evil. Blames the PC’s. So he made a deal with Ragathiel to go back in time and stop the PC’s before they wipe out the town. {{ He is crazy, there was no deal with Ragathiel and he did not go back in time. }} Knows he can’t take the PC’s directly, so he follows them around and disrupts their plans. (Party sneaking into the castle is suddenly lit up with faerie fire.) He’s hoping that messing up their plans will allow some other creature to finish them off. He is a good hero trying to save his peaceful gnome village from the PC’s. Works really well if you have the really nice guy PC’s that don’t want to kill/hurt another good guy.
- Good paladin and followers (very good, very bull headed, but very stupid)
He’s determined to stop the war between 2 small countries. So he has established himself in the only mountain pass that connects them. Won’t let people from either country into the pass because the ‘always get in a fight’ when they meet. PC’s are hired to ‘resolve’ the situation.
- Cowardly BBEG
As soon as he thinks he might be in the slightest danger, he flees. So the PC’s will encounter him over and over again.
I'd like to see more BBEG villains winning.
Treat them like a PC. Have them "leveling up", gaining powers, moving around, defeating other parties, recruiting allies. Let the PC's hear about them throughout the plot, becoming more powerful. Give the PC's some motivation to get to them and defeat them. Create a sense of urgency.
Knowing that the BBEG is a static level X type Y Class Z cardboard cutout that's just sitting in a lair, watching the clock for "Boss Fight Time" to come around so he can get his teeth kicked in is...boring. And very common.
This is what I truly hope to accomplish. Villainy shouldn't just be for the GM. Sometimes, villainy is the goal of the PC, and it should be celebrated in those instances where players just want to be bad.