RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This time on pages of spell knowledge.
The important text.
"If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known."
Is "[having] that spell on her class spell list." a class ability? If so, does this mean, for example, a sorcerer with a high enough UMD could 'trick' a page of spell knowledge to allow him to burn a 2nd level spell slot to throw sound burst?
An argument for this is that UMD allows you to use a scroll, wand, staff or other spell trigger item "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list" so extending it to items like pages of spell knowledge would make sense, even though they are not spell trigger items.
Arguments against include: It's not a spell trigger item; you can emulate having it on your list, but it won't make the spell castable (weak to me, but I want to include it for completeness sake) having a spell on your list is not a class ability.
Just wanting thoughts, and ideally an official ruling.
I'd say RAW, since the Use Magic Device skill doesn't say you can emulate a spell on a spell list with a UMD check for anything other than a spell trigger item, I think the Rules don't support it.
As a GM, I'd allow it
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Suppose a sorcerer can use a UMD check for the Page. How many times per day could she do so? Suppose that the Page has a second level spell. Then a first level sorcerer would have to emulate a sorcerer of at least 4th level, who gets 3 second level spell slots per day. After that, she would have to emulate a higher sorcerer level, up to a maximum of 6 slots at 7th level.
Given that limitation on the use of the item, I think it is reasonable to allow the UMD check.
I would say since it isnt a "spell trigger" item it cant be used with UMD. The page has no intrinsic power; it simply add the knowledge of a spell to your spell list, in a manner nearly identical to the ring of spell knowledge.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Suppose a sorcerer can use a UMD check for the Page. How many times per day could she do so? Suppose that the Page has a second level spell. Then a first level sorcerer would have to emulate a sorcerer of at least 4th level, who gets 3 second level spell slots per day. After that, she would have to emulate a higher sorcerer level, up to a maximum of 6 slots at 7th level.
Given that limitation on the use of the item, I think it is reasonable to allow the UMD check.
I'd thought about that.
Since there's no action given to use the page of spell knowledge, (as far as I can tell) it would just be a check when trying to cast the spell (UMD action is normally part of using the item)
I agree it's balanced, but I'm (obviously) biased.
Seems fair to me, just wishing we could get sometihng official, since all I play right now is PFS
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell
In general i would say that it works because you can simulate a class level. As example you have an arcane scroll with a 3 level spell so you need to simulate that you are a lvl 5 wizard/scorc.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Another questions is: Can an arcane caster use such a scroll and UMD to cast divine spells with an arcane spell slot ?
The answer is no because you cannot simulate such a feature with UMD. Only some classes or feats allow this.
Mmmmh, I remember there is an item of "spell knowledge", or something like that, which let you consider a spell known for a spontaneous caster.
I don't think a simple (most of the spontaneous are charisma-based) UMD check could suppress the interest of this (pricey) item.
Can't check anything where I am now, but I'm not fond of this tbh.
There is a 'Ring of spell knowledge' who does the same as the 'page of spell knowledge' (and a little more) with one main difference. The ring only works with arcane spells.
Basically we have three different items:
The 'Ring of spell knowledge' only for arcane caster.
A 'Scroll of spell knowledge (arcane)' for arcane caster.
A 'Scroll of spell knowledge (divine)' for divine caster.
Under this interpretation a 12 level sorc can use a spell knowledge page of heal by UMD as a level 11 cleric (CD 31). That seems a little too much.
Ouch, didn't pay enough attention to first post, didn't totally understand the question, and went totally brainfart. (Silly me, checking Rules forum in the subway.
OK. Still don't like it, like Dekalinder
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This time on pages of spell knowledge.
The important text.
"If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known."
Is "[having] that spell on her class spell list." a class ability? If so, does this mean, for example, a sorcerer with a high enough UMD could 'trick' a page of spell knowledge to allow him to burn a 2nd level spell slot to throw sound burst?
An argument for this is that UMD allows you to use a scroll, wand, staff or other spell trigger item "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list" so extending it to items like pages of spell knowledge would make sense, even though they are not spell trigger items.
Arguments against include: It's not a spell trigger item; you can emulate having it on your list, but it won't make the spell castable (weak to me, but I want to include it for completeness sake) having a spell on your list is not a class ability.
Just wanting thoughts, and ideally an official ruling.
As I see it, step by step:
1) You use UMD into convincing the pages of spell knowledge that you are a caster of the appropriate class.
It see to be feasible. DC 21 to trick the Pages into thinking that you are a Bard, Inquisitor, Oracle or Sorcerer (you only need to trick them into believing that you are a fist level member of the class).
You get the knowledge of the spell.
2) Now you try to cast the spell, but you need a spell slot of a class with the spell in his spell list. UMD can't help you with that.
You can't cast the spell.
- * -
Just to point it out, the creation of Pages of spell knowledge is horribly broken from a balance point of view.
The pages are a wondrous item so the creator don't need to know the spell to create them. A sorcerer can create a page of spell knowledge with heal in it.
Even worse, you don't even need the spellcraft skill, you only need a good calligraphy as you can create them with the Profession (scribe) skill. A masterwork set of scribing implements will help you into creating a page teaching a spell that you don't know.
With that in mind allowing the pages to teach spells to people that hasn't them in their spell list become extremely unbalancing.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Under this interpretation a 12 level sorc can use a spell knowledge page of heal by UMD as a level 11 cleric (CD 31). That seems a little too much.
See, I don't think it's too much.
You're talking about a third of the WBL for that character (36K out of 108K) plus a UMD check, (which, if you're requiring a CL of 11, that's a non-trivial roll) plus a spell slot, to be able to cast a 6th level cleric spell.
(by contrast, a scroll of a 6th level spell costs 1650 GP, and requires the same DC.)
Now there are better choices (a bard using one to throw a surprise magic missile, an inquisitor with a greatsword using shield a meele bard (saw Dawnflower Dervish, Arcane Duelist) using false life, a sorcerer using sound burst all come to mind) than your heal example, but I still don't see it as 'too much'
The ring of (arcane/divine) spell knowlege is more expensive, but a) doesn't require an investment of skill points, and b) is more flexible.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As I see it, step by step:1) You use UMD into convincing the pages of spell knowledge that you are a caster of the appropriate class.
It see to be feasible. DC 21 to trick the Pages into thinking that you are a Bard, Inquisitor, Oracle or Sorcerer (you only need to trick them into believing that you are a fist level member of the class).
You get the knowledge of the spell.2) Now you try to cast the spell, but you need a spell slot of a class with the spell in his spell list. UMD can't help you with that.
You can't cast the spell.- * -
Just to point it out, the creation of Pages of spell knowledge is horribly broken from a balance point of view.
The pages are a wondrous item so the creator don't need to know the spell to create them. A sorcerer can create...
Ah, see I see step two differently, and it might be because of how it's written.
My read: You don't need a spell slot of a class with the spell in his spell list, you need a spell slot. Since I've 'tricked' the page into thinking I'm X class I've fufilled the 'has the spell on my class list' requirement, so I can fire off one of my own spell slots.
I didn't even think about item creation aspects, as I'm jsut exclusively playing PFS now.
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell.
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.
Use Magic Device allows you to bypass a class or class feature requirement in order to activate an item. It does not actually grant you any class or class features. While you could bypass the "is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list" requirement by pretending to be, e.g., a sorcerer, you would not actually have any spell slots with which to cast it. Furthermore, the "as if it were one of her spells known" clause implicitly links the feature to the class spell list mentioned in the previous clause, so you could not, for example, use your oracle spell slots to case magic missile from a page of spell knowledge.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
You see implicit, I see inferred. :-)
Basically, I'm reading it as "Is having the spell on the class list a 'class feature'? If yes, then it can be emulated, and fueled by a spell slot from your own class. You seem to infer that the parsing also requires a class spell slot, where I'm inferring it requires just 'a' spell slot once the 'it's on my class list' part is met.
I'm going to go ahead and FAQ my original post, since it seems unclear. With my Archerologist, I'm thinking 1,000 GP for 'expect table variation' might be worth it in the interim.
I'm going to have to come down on the yes side of things; it seems to me that there isn't any requirement (RAW) that the slot used must be of the correct class to cast the spell.
The crux of the issue is the if-then clause in the wording of the item: IF ("the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster" AND "has that spell on her class spell list") THEN ("she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known"). With a successful UMD check fulfilling the IF clause, then the item grants the then clause, which does not place any restrictions on the slots used to cast the spell. Additionally, it seems to me that this wording would would fall under circumstances similar to those in the Ancient Lorekeeper oracle archetype; the Elven Arcana ability simply says you select a spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list and gain it as a bonus spell known. This seems to be sufficient for casting.
I'm also not sure that there's any distinction in the wording of UMD. It seems to me the only change in usage between activated and ongoing is a periodic UMD check vs UMD checks on activation.
Anyways, I have to agree that the barrier to entry is high enough that as a GM I wouldn't balk too much though, as a player of sorcerers, I definitely have skin in the game. The item creation issue is kind of worrying though.
The problem us UMD doesnt let you use a feature that you are tricking it into using.
If you have your page of spell knowedge, and you use UMD to borrow the Bard's spellcast class feature' (which i think is what you need to umd to use this item?)
You then go to cast the spell from the bard spell list at this point you are now using the bard spellcasting class feature to cast a spell. You have no bard spell slots.
Its no different than trying to UMD to convince an item you have the channel energy class feature then trying to channel energy. It doesnt work.
@ Mojorat:
There's an important distinction; you aren't actually using (or borrowing) any feature you emulate with UMD, you are using the item and your own class features. This is why I found the Oracle example so useful. An Ancient Lorekeeper who has added Fireball to their spells known list using the Elven Arcana class feature is not casting a Sorcerer/Wizard spell using a Sorcerer/Wizard spell slot and the Sorcerer/Wizard spellcasting feature, they are casting an Oracle spell that just happened to be taken from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list using an Oracle spell slot and the Oracle spellcasting feature.
Since the page of spell knowledge, with a successful UMD check to fulfill the class spell list requirement and the spontaneous casting class feature, allows the character to treat the spell as a spell known, then the spell is cast using the characters class spellcasting slots and the characters spellcasting class feature. At no point would the abilities of the class emulated for UMD actually be used.
@ seebs:
I'd think yes, a bard could cast it from a 6th level slot; overwhelming presence appears on the bard spell list and the item makes no mention of the spell list used by the creator of the page. That does bring up a sticky issue though; suppose a Page of Spell Knowledge of Flame Strike. This is Cleric 5 / Druid 4. Could a sorcerer, using UMD, emulate a druid rather than a cleric to cast the spell at a lower level? I'd want to say that you should treat it in the same manner as pricing, cast at the highest level spell level at which it appears on any list, but it's not anywhere in the language.
This feels like it's getting into the worst of rules lawyering... I kind of like the idea of some cross list versatility though; could give my healer-less party some more options.
Use Magic Device sais:
"You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour."
"Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)."
However, Page of Spell Knowledge sais:
"This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell."
Clearly, you use your own slots with this item. You don't need some other class' slots. However, this item is not one that is activated. Therefore UMD cannot trick it into being useful.
/cevah
Since there are differing opinions, I'll just throw my hat in on the side of "emulating a class feature" only letting you use UMD for the purpose of activating a magic item (as it also clearly says). The page of spell knowledge doesn't require an activation, so that part of UMD does nothing for it.
I would be surprised if emulating a class feature did not fall under the "some other quality" designation, right along side race, alignment, and ability scores. It seems to me that language for ongoing UMD checks changes timing, but does not limit or change the usage.
I would be surprised if emulating a class feature did not fall under the "some other quality" designation, right along side race, alignment, and ability scores. It seems to me that language for ongoing UMD checks changes timing, but does not limit or change the usage.
Agree that it is the "some other quality" designation. However: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item.". What do you activate with the page?
/cevah
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I had always assumed that the language for UMD was, with the exception of the passage stating the rules for dealing with ongoing usage, in reference to activation but not excluding ongoing usage. Then when it says "sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate", it's giving a context to the passage but not limiting it to activation only.
After looking through forum history at threads referencing UMD, I've found that everybody seems to be making different unspoken assumptions about this. Amusingly, the language here hasn't changed in 14 years; it's the exact same in my 3.0 handbook.
I guess saying "class features cannot be emulated on an ongoing basis" seems like an odd rule to be implied but not explicitly stated.
Probably I'm in the wrong on this, and have simply been assuming wrongly for a long time, but I'll tag this for FAQ clarification anyways; can class features be emulated on an ongoing basis?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I had always assumed that the language for UMD was, with the exception of the passage stating the rules for dealing with ongoing usage, in reference to activation but not excluding ongoing usage. Then when it says "sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate", it's giving a context to the passage but not limiting it to activation only.
After looking through forum history at threads referencing UMD, I've found that everybody seems to be making different unspoken assumptions about this. Amusingly, the language here hasn't changed in 14 years; it's the exact same in my 3.0 handbook.
I guess saying "class features cannot be emulated on an ongoing basis" seems like an odd rule to be implied but not explicitly stated.
Probably I'm in the wrong on this, and have simply been assuming wrongly for a long time, but I'll tag this for FAQ clarification anyways; can class features be emulated on an ongoing basis?
I think we can all agree, that as items have evolved, UMD needs clarified. :-)
also in the 'to activate' clause. Don't you 'activate' the page when you cast the spell? That's how I read it. Sorcerer wants to sound burst the guy? make the UMD check when you cast the spell, you fail, nothing happens except you burned your standard action.
If you emulate once per hour, then for a PFS scenario you could be in better shape. Make your emulations checks at the beginning of the scenario/encounter* and you're good to go.
*
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person).
Activate an item is just standard language, every items is "activated" when used.
Awesome, thanks for pointing that out; definitely clears up the otherwise very odd UMD wording.
Pages of Spell Knowledge would count as a continuously functioning magic item (so checks every hour) and it looks like it's a valid target for UMD; that seems to legitimize using it and UMD to gain access to spells from other spell lists. Considering that it takes about a third of your wealth by level and a reasonably high UMD to get access to a single spell of the highest level you can cast from another list, I wouldn't exactly say it's broken either.
Something no one mentioned is that the class ability isn't "Sorcerer spells" or "Druidic spells," it's just "Spells" with a description clarification. So really, any spellcaster has the prerequisite of "spells." It's just that the description states if you cast arcane/divine, and which class list you pull it off of. So all spellcasters have the prerequisite class feature already, they just don't have the spell on their specific list... which is where the UMD check would come into play, to "trick" the item into working for you.
Personally, I'd probably roll with a couple options.
1) "If you're a Wizard trying to cast a Bard spell, one UMD check when you gain ownership of the item. If you're a wizard trying to cast a Divine spell, it's a UMD check EACH time they try and use a divine page."
2) Use the "Designing Spells" option in Ultimate Magic to make an arcane version of a divine spell, or visa versa, including old-school spell research costs.
OR
3) Since sorcerer spells ability states "Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time," and the PoSK states "If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.", that opens the door for and DM to state whatever they want. Since a sorcerer can *conceivably* gain a spell from anywhere, and ANY spell, since they only "Primarily" gain them from the Sorcerer/Wizard list and "Secondarily" from bloodlines or DM discernment, then this opens the door.
So roll with it as you would! Yes, no, or "make a UMD check" are all valid answers, depending on your play style. It won't break the game to give a sorcerer "Fire Seeds" or an oracle "Wish." The Magic Item Cost (either creation or outright purchase) will keep them within respectible limits. Just watch those human sorcerers with their Spellbook of Spell Knowledge!
Can a cleric/sorcerer use this item (without UMD) to cast sorcerer spells using her cleric slots? The answer to that is the answer to the OP.
Since the original writer is chiming in here, I do have another question related to the Page of Spell Knowledge (PoSK).
But what was the original intention in ‘using’ the item? Does just possessing the PoSK allow you to add an additional known spell? Or do you actually need to pull out the PoSK to cast the additional known spell?
Since the original writer is chiming in here
Eh? Did I miss a Paizo post?
Whoops! Posted in wrong Page of Spell Knowledge thread. :)
And it’s not a Paizo employee, btw. Quite a few of the items in UE are from Contributors. PoSK included.