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That person (assuming they're the only one who knows they're going to attack) is usually (in my experience) granted the surprise round, with initiative determining the order in the following full round. Unless there's a diviner or someone ELSE who always gets to go in the surprise round, then you most certainly can get a situation where the initiator of combat doesn't get to go first because someone else's spidey sense was tingling.
The flatfooted rule simply states: Untill you reached your initiative, you are unaware of the battle and the initiative signifies your awareness of it. The surprise round extends this by an extra action.
A high perception usually makes sure that you do not get surprised easily and starting a combat futher apart from your opponent.
I use a paladin with a perception of +11 at level 3 and I rarely am surprised. Combats usually start not standing toe to toe and that negates the advantage of not having acted yet. A high dexterity and improved initiative greatly reduce your chance of being caught flatfooted. Dexterity bonus is in your intiative modifier and improved initiative adds a +4 (I think).
I also use a ranger with quickdraw and a high perception. I will let him run around with a buckler and composite longbow. When a fight starts not toe to toe I will fire (at a flatfooted opponent if possible) and when they reach me I simply drop or sheath the bow and draw my melee weapon as a free action. As the buckler is allready worn I can easily switch weapons, without donning the shield and using a bow with a buckler does not give a penalty. I could use a two handed melee weapon wearing the buckler as well but that would imply a -1 penalty to hit and not get me the shield bonus, but it might be handy if I want to use a reach weapon fast (and I believe reach weapons are all two-handed, except for a lance on horseback).
It's important to realise what role you want to play before you create a character. My paladin will be using heavy armor eventually and since my dexterity bonus is +1, I lose less AC from being flatfooted anyway. Certain classes as the barbarian or the thief and at high levels the ranger as well, will prevent you from being flatfooted even if your turn in initiative has not been up yet.
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It's entirely possible for a fast person to preempt someone attacking them and get the jump on the person who initiates the combat.
Think of your standard old west style gunfight where the first person to go for their gun isn't necessarily the first person to shoot.
If you start a fight and lose initiative, it means the other guy saw what you were doing and reacted so quickly you weren't ready for it.
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The idea is that, in a fight, the guy who swings first is going to have an advantage. Think Samurai movies, or old west gunfights.
The game represents that advantage by making the other guy flat footed. It isn't that you don't know fight is happening or the attack is coming, it's that you didn't realize the other guy was going to be so fast.
You didn't actually get involved in combat and readied your body for it BECAUSE you rolled badly. It represents your reflexes.
That's why initiative bonus equals to dexterity bonus without feats.
Can you remove the first round flat-footed condition by taking an immediate action before your initiative count comes up?
EDIT: Nevermind, no, you can't.
I also find it odd that the person who is holding a loaded crossbow pointed at someone, and who opens combat by declaring that they open fire could end up losing the initative and going last, or well after the other target anyhow. Perhaps the declaration of attacking should warrant a (possibly opposed) sense motive check by the targets(s) and if they FAIL its a surprise round attack for the firer. As it stands, the odds of a person covering a doorway with a crossbow ready to shoot anyone who opens the door and enters is so low they'd be better buying a lottery ticket and hiring a sea of mercenaries to do it for them (and both would have better odds).
Even if you're intending to act first during combat, that doesn't mean that you are going to be the fastest moving. In fact, if you believe that you're going to hit someone first, and it turns out that they were actually so quick that they punch you first, then is it really so hard to believe that you weren't ready to defend against (use your DEX for AC) their hit?
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I still don't understand why you take a penalty to your AC. The examples you gave describe someone rolling higher in their initiative than the person who initiated combat. isn't it enough that they go for first? why does the initiator take further penalties? A round is only six seconds. it doesn't make sense that somebody can get in attack off and then you can become aware and make your own attack within that 6 seconds. I think this "unaware of combat" penalty should only apply in a surprise round.
Grab a friend and find a spot to have a race over 10 feet. Both of you go up to the line and wait. Let your friend be the one to say "go". See who wins the race.
Do the same thing again, but don't wait until your friend says go. Just start. See who wins the race.
In both cases, you know what's coming. You know what you're going to do. You know what your friend is going to do. In that second race, your friend didn't get any slower, you just beat him/her to the punch. S/he wasn't as prepared to start as s/he thought.
Same idea here. Even if you started the fight, maybe the opponent reacted better or had a suspicion about what was going to happen or somehow got the jump on you. They beat you to the punch.
I also find it odd that the person who is holding a loaded crossbow pointed at someone, and who opens combat by declaring that they open fire could end up losing the initative and going last, or well after the other target anyhow. Perhaps the declaration of attacking should warrant a (possibly opposed) sense motive check by the targets(s) and if they FAIL its a surprise round attack for the firer. As it stands, the odds of a person covering a doorway with a crossbow ready to shoot anyone who opens the door and enters is so low they'd be better buying a lottery ticket and hiring a sea of mercenaries to do it for them (and both would have better odds).
We usually house rule that the crossbow pointing bandits are "readying an action" and have already started combat (so not flat footed). There is no surprise round, and the readied action takes place just before the first initiative count. It means the dudes with the crossbows ready to go, go first. It also means that they only get their readied action instead of a full round action, which is the trade off for being ready to go.
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I disagree with this rule as well. The example of the friends racing above is a good comparison to someone beating the initiater at initiative, but doesnt really explain the AC ding. Just because you were quicker than the guy alone does not mean he is unprepared for the fight, especially true for trained professionals such as an adventuring party.
When 2 pro boxers step into the ring, one of them theoretically wins initiative. The other does not become any less prepared for the fight just because he did not get the chance for the first swing. He is as ready as he will ever be because he is a trained professional and he is aware of the threat at hand. If he were doing dishes at home and yur stealth check beat his perception check then you could certainly get a surprise round on him catching him flat footed, but not if he is aware of combat
It's not so much that he's less prepared for the fight, it's that he simply does not react fast enough. The 'fluff' behind adding your DEX to AC is that you're actively defending yourself. If you can't move faster than your attacker to attack him first, then why would you be able to move to actively defend yourself against that attack?
Not reacting fast enough is reflected by losing initiative. A trained fighter is just as prepared to defend himself against the first blow when the bell dings as he is the second. If anything makes it easier to hit him, it would be the accumulating disorientation of being struck several times in a row, but that would come after the combat starts, not before
I also find it odd that the person who is holding a loaded crossbow pointed at someone, and who opens combat by declaring that they open fire could end up losing the initative and going last, or well after the other target anyhow.
HAN SHOT FIRST!
Anyway, as long as the enemy is aware of you pointing the thing at them, they have a chance of moving before you expect them to move. Some dudes are really quick.
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Not reacting fast enough is reflected by losing initiative. A trained fighter is just as prepared to defend himself against the first blow when the bell dings as he is the second. If anything makes it easier to hit him, it would be the accumulating disorientation of being struck several times in a row, but that would come after the combat starts, not before
The fact that there are professional matches where first-punch knock-outs occur seem to disagree. They aren't common, but they do happen.
I don't know what other explanations I can provide; I will say that since this is the rules forum, the rule on this is pretty much as clear as it can get, so whether there's a rationalization that you, or I, accept, anything else is a house rule.
I disagree with this rule as well. The example of the friends racing above is a good comparison to someone beating the initiater at initiative, but doesnt really explain the AC ding. Just because you were quicker than the guy alone does not mean he is unprepared for the fight, especially true for trained professionals such as an adventuring party.
When 2 pro boxers step into the ring, one of them theoretically wins initiative. The other does not become any less prepared for the fight just because he did not get the chance for the first swing. He is as ready as he will ever be because he is a trained professional and he is aware of the threat at hand. If he were doing dishes at home and yur stealth check beat his perception check then you could certainly get a surprise round on him catching him flat footed, but not if he is aware of combat
Two fighters stepping into a ring is not an apt analogy. In that case, a third party is starting the fight arbitrarily. That means that both fighters are reacting to the same stimulus.
It's a different scenario when one person initiates the fight him or herself.
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@xeratherus that would be represented by a crit more than it would that the loser had a lower AC
I understand the rule, I was just stating that I agree with the guy saying it doesn't make sense. I play the rule as its written because I play by the book, but I see where he's coming from
@fretgod99 it appears both of our scenarios had differences from the actual rule in question. As to my example, I was only using a pro fight because it helped illustrate that a trained professional would be on his toes from the moment he was aware of a hostile situation. Take the same fighter outside the ring and it is the same. It doesn't matter who starts the fight, once he realizes its a hostile situation he is just as ready as he will ever be. I know plenty of fighters man. I know guys that own gyms, promote fights, and even 1 guy that's been on the cover of magazines for submission of the year. These guys are no easier to hit with the first swing then they are the second, trust me
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I think from now on, in my games, I'm removing this rule except for surprise rounds.
If two groups are aware of each other, nobody is flat-footed. It's ridiculous and doesn't make any sense at all. Sure, one side will win initiative and get to act first, but just because one side acts first doesn't somehow give them "free hits" (lower AC, sneak attacks, etc) on people who also knew a battle was about to take place. This is ESPECIALLY true when one side initiates combat with an action, but gets unlucky and doesn't win initiative.
Going back to the age-old "two gunfighters in the Old West" analogy the apologists of this rule cling to. When Clint Eastwood quickdraws his pistol and shoots the rifleman on top of the saloon, he's just beating the dude in initiative. That rifleman isn't taken by surprise and caught flat-footed. He's didn't climb up on top of the building, load his rifle, and aim at Clint, then, when he gets shot at, say "Oh snap, a gunfight? I had no idea that was going to happen! Ahh, I got sneak attacked!"
The reason you are flat footed is because even though you attempted to start the combat the person who won the initiative was actually quicker than you were and actually started the combat. The scenario where you have the person covered with the crossbow is where you were able to gain a surprise and took a readied action to shoot them if they move. Since a readied action interrupts and takes place before the action that triggered it the person covered by the crossbow is the one who is flat footed.
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It wouldn't be such an issue if this kind of thing didn't literally happen almost every game session:
The players and some NPC group are in some hostile situation. They're trading insults with a rival mercenary group in a tavern or demanding the surrender of some goblins, whatever. The point is, both sides are combat trained, have ample reason to expect the other side to start a fight, and are fully prepared for such a fight.
So one of the NPCs does something to trigger the battle. A merc throws a punch or a goblin hurls a spear. We roll initiative.
Inevitably, one of my group's min-maxed, power-gamed characters rolls 30 something on his initiative and beats the NPCs. He attacks first and, for some absurd reason, catches the NPCs so off-guard that they're flat-footed. He gets free hits on their gimped AC and does all kinds of bonus sneak attack damage.
This is wrong. If YOUR actions are what start a fight, there is no possible way YOU can be unaware that a fight was about to break out. Can you be beaten in initiative? Sure. Can you get sneak attacked by someone you were about to sucker punch? No.
I also find it odd that the person who is holding a loaded crossbow pointed at someone, and who opens combat by declaring that they open fire could end up losing the initative and going last, or well after the other target anyhow. Perhaps the declaration of attacking should warrant a (possibly opposed) sense motive check by the targets(s) and if they FAIL its a surprise round attack for the firer. As it stands, the odds of a person covering a doorway with a crossbow ready to shoot anyone who opens the door and enters is so low they'd be better buying a lottery ticket and hiring a sea of mercenaries to do it for them (and both would have better odds).
If you already have a crossbow pointed at someone, and initiative has not been rolled, you're doing something wrong.
If you have a crossbow pointed at a door, ready to shoot anyone the instant they open it, you have a readied action going, which sloppiness aside, means that technically initiative should have been rolled when you first declared that you were doing so, your turn came up, that's what you said you were doing.
If you are standing around talking to people, threatening them and such, the instant you start to raise your arm to point the crossbow, that's when initiative gets rolled. You haven't lined the shot up yet until your actual turn comes around, and clearly from the situation you're describing, you're not expecting anyone to see you bringing it up and attack before you're ready to fire.
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If you are standing around talking to people...
Okay, here's another situation:
The players are in the bar, talking smack to some half-orcs. One player decides to start a fight and punch the nearest half-orc.
Initiative is rolled; the half-orcs win. One of them punches the flat-footed PC and causes some damage.
Now the PCs turn comes around and he innocently says, "I go full defense and wait for the guards to rush in. I never attacked that half-orc! He started the fight."
Now the scene looks ridiculous. What do you do, force the PC to attack on his round?
It's situations like this that have me reconsidering the rule.
On a side note, I just re-read the rules for regular initiative and surprise rounds. When one side is unaware of the other, they're flat-footed during the first round. So if you roll low on initiative, it doesn't matter if you're even aware of the existence of your attackers; either way, you suffer the exact same penalty.
If you are standing around talking to people...Okay, here's another situation:
The players are in the bar, talking smack to some half-orcs. One player decides to start a fight and punch the nearest half-orc.
Initiative is rolled; the half-orcs win. One of them punches the flat-footed PC and causes some damage.
Now the PCs turn comes around and he innocently says, "I go full defense and wait for the guards to rush in. I never attacked that half-orc! He started the fight."
Now the scene looks ridiculous. What do you do, force the PC to attack on his round?
It's situations like this that have me reconsidering the rule.
On a side note, I just re-read the rules for regular initiative and surprise rounds. When one side is unaware of the other, they're flat-footed during the first round. So if you roll low on initiative, it doesn't matter if you're even aware of the existence of your attackers; either way, you suffer the exact same penalty.
Option A:
Joe Blacksmith at table 9: "No officer, that's not how it went down. That man over there started the fight by talking smack and went to hit the half orc. The half orc was defending himself." PC gets fined or arrestedOption B:
Half orc gets fined or arrested and seeks retribution at a later date.
In the second case, I have seen this happen in real life.
In either case, your PC gains a reputation as a loud mouth punk who doesn't have the stones to finish a fight he started.
If you are standing around talking to people...Okay, here's another situation:
The players are in the bar, talking smack to some half-orcs. One player decides to start a fight and punch the nearest half-orc.
Initiative is rolled; the half-orcs win. One of them punches the flat-footed PC and causes some damage.
Now the PCs turn comes around and he innocently says, "I go full defense and wait for the guards to rush in. I never attacked that half-orc! He started the fight."
Now the scene looks ridiculous. What do you do, force the PC to attack on his round?
You are flatfooted until you act. Not until you attack. Taking the total defense action is absolutely acting. You would be moving your arms up to protect your face and dodging around and such.
It's still kind of a weird situation to do that instead of trying to talk things out, or go looking for said guards, etc. but as far as the flat-footed status goes, I'm not seeing a problem.
It's situations like this that have me reconsidering the rule.
On a side note, I just re-read the rules for regular initiative and surprise rounds. When one side is unaware of the other, they're flat-footed during the first round. So if you roll low on initiative, it doesn't matter if you're even aware of the existence of your attackers; either way, you suffer the exact same penalty.
No, it makes a huge difference. If you, personally, are aware you are being ambushed, you get to act during the surprise round. Perception checks for this sort of thing are not a team effort, they're character by character. Like combat with no surprise involved, the instant you get your surprise round turn here, you are no longer flat-footed. Good for you.
If, on the other hand, you are totally oblivious, and someone is full-on getting the drop on you from behind or in their little sniper's perch, you skip over the entire surprise round, and only lose your flat-footed status when your turn rolls around in the first non-surprise round. If you have the highest initiative in the room, you're still flat-footed against any attacks made in the surprise round, but if you're being surprised AND your init sucks, your attacker gets to take both their move-or-standard in the surprise round AND their whole move-and-standard-or-full in the first regular round while you're still flatfooted. That can be downright deadly.
@Thomas gock were not talking about initiative, were talkig about initiatives affect on AC. AC is not a represented factor in the race, there for its not an equal comparison. I don't see what's so hard to get
@BornofHate all you did was ignore the point, which was a good point indeed
I also find it odd that the person who is holding a loaded crossbow pointed at someone, and who opens combat by declaring that they open fire could end up losing the initative and going last, or well after the other target anyhow. Perhaps the declaration of attacking should warrant a (possibly opposed) sense motive check by the targets(s) and if they FAIL its a surprise round attack for the firer. As it stands, the odds of a person covering a doorway with a crossbow ready to shoot anyone who opens the door and enters is so low they'd be better buying a lottery ticket and hiring a sea of mercenaries to do it for them (and both would have better odds).
This is pretty much how I run it.
The book just says "perception or other checks" might be required to know that stuff is going down.However, I would argue that if you have your weapon trained on someone and are taking readied actions, you're already on initiative. Everyone's just delaying. Readying an attack is a combat action, ergo you must be on initiative already, right?
If you are standing around talking to people...Okay, here's another situation:
The players are in the bar, talking smack to some half-orcs. One player decides to start a fight and punch the nearest half-orc.
Initiative is rolled; the half-orcs win. One of them punches the flat-footed PC and causes some damage.
Now the PCs turn comes around and he innocently says, "I go full defense and wait for the guards to rush in. I never attacked that half-orc! He started the fight."
Now the scene looks ridiculous. What do you do, force the PC to attack on his round?
It's situations like this that have me reconsidering the rule.
On a side note, I just re-read the rules for regular initiative and surprise rounds. When one side is unaware of the other, they're flat-footed during the first round. So if you roll low on initiative, it doesn't matter if you're even aware of the existence of your attackers; either way, you suffer the exact same penalty.
My first question to the GM would be, why didn't the PC get a surprise round? Add the surprise round in and boom, half-orc is flat footed, and then when the real rounds start PC has already acted and is not flat footed even if his init is lower than the half-orcs.
If for some reason there is no surprise round, init should have been rolled before the PC ever got to declare he was going to initiate hostilities - and he can instead start making his apologies to the half-orc and hope he doesn't get punched in the face.
There is nothing wrong with the flat footed rules if you handle surprise rounds correctly or correctly know when hostilities have really started. e.g, if someone is pointing a loaded crossbow at me you better believe that even if they haven't fired it yet I'm taking evasive action as soon as I realize that fact. In other words, loaded crossbow being held threateningly means roll init. The participants may choose at that point, round by round, to not actually take hostile actions, but they'd certainly have their shields up and be standing on the balls of their feet ready to move.
Yeah... I misread that as the half-orc starting the fight with a surprise round. Reading more carefully, A- PC gets a surprise round and it's a non-issue, B- Wow that's a ridiculous example, who would ever try to act this way?
I suppose what could happen is, the PC saunters over, the half-orc sees him, works out what he's doing, and being much faster, leaps out of his seat to strike first, and then the PC rethinks the whole thing because he clearly picked the wrong guy to mess with, but, there's nothing illogical about how that plays out.
Particularly since this would still be a surprise round, it would not start with the other PC within 5' of the half-orc, he'd still be walking across the bar, and thus the half-orc, acting first in what is still a surprise round even though everyone involved is getting to act, would either spend his half-turn closing the distance, or readying an action when the PC stepped up to him.
The only person to get a surprise round in that situation would be the one who swung on the first half orc before initiative was rolled
The only person to get a surprise round in that situation would be the one who swung on the first half orc before initiative was rolled
And that's a problem how? If the PC doesn't somehow communicate his intentions to the rest of his party they are going to be just as surprised as the half-orc is. If he does communicate his intentions (without letting the half-orc know) then his whole party gets to act in the surprise round.
Think of it this way. At the start of combat there is ALWAYS a surprise round. Those who were aware combat was about to start get to act in the surprise round.
This might be everyone - two armies facing each other sound their horns and charge across the field at each other. This might be no one - the PC's failed their perception check and didn't hear the goblins on the other side of the door - when they open the door both the goblins and PC's are surprised and none get to act.
It might be one side gets to act - the bandits jump out of the bushes and attack the party.
It might be some characters from each side - PC goes to punch the half-orc, the half-orcs diviner wizard friends spider senses tingle and he knows his friend is about to be attacked - the PC and the diviner both act in the surprise round.
@bbangerter did you read my take on flat footed at beginning of combat? Imagine somehow you managed to get the first swing on Bruce lee because theoretically you won initiative. Are you telling me that if he saw you running at him screaming and about to attack him, that he would be easier to hit than he would every other attack you made during the fight?
The only person to get a surprise round in that situation would be the one who swung on the first half orc before initiative was rolledAnd that's a problem how? If the PC doesn't somehow communicate his intentions to the rest of his party they are going to be just as surprised as the half-orc is. If he does communicate his intentions (without letting the half-orc know) then his whole party gets to act in the surprise round.
didn't you say you'd ask the GM why the PC didn't gets surprise round? He did is what I'm saying. Or did I miss something? I could missed something, I was trying to keep up with the thread as I watched black sails
There certainly is not ALWAYS a surprise round. If so please tell me which page I can reference this on. There are only surprise rounds when some of the combatants are unaware of a hostile situation. If I see a monster running at me then I am aware, and obviously so is he- no surprise round
Edit: I'm totally aware that I don't know everything. I was serious when I asked for a page number to reference what yur saying. This would obviously he a difference that would be stated in the rules though, so if it does not state it that way then it is not so
@bbangerter did you read my take on flat footed at beginning of combat? Imagine somehow you managed to get the first swing on Bruce lee because theoretically you won initiative. Are you telling me that if he saw you running at him screaming and about to attack him, that he would be easier to hit than he would every other attack you made during the fight?
Aside from the fact its highly unlikely I'd beat Bruce Lee's init roll...
If I did somehow manage to do so.
Surprise round. I run at him screaming.
Round 1, I have first init. By some miracle I'm going before Bruce Lee - he was distracted by something else when I started screaming? Just at that moment something got in his eye and he was busy trying to rub it out? Maybe he is groggy having just woken up from a nap? Doesn't really matter - if by some miracle I beat his init roll, and in the single standard action allowed by a surprise round and the full round of actions I have for going first on my init, then yes he is flat footed.
But realistically, what are my chances of beating his init roll? He probably has a dex of 20, or higher, probably has improved initiative. Me, I'm an average guy with 10 (maybe even a 9). He gets +9 to his roll. I get +0 or -1. Sure on a d20 its possible, but the number of times I beat his roll compared to the number of times he beats mine... Unlikely scenarios can and do sometimes happen (both in game and in real life) - but if you are a betting man its a quick way to lose a lot of money.
EDIT: As to their ALWAYS being a surprise round. I don't have a page number, but top of the combat chapter.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
So yes correction on my end. If all combatants are aware, then you skip doing a surprise round. If all combatants are unaware, the surprise round could exist or not exist, it wouldn't matter as it would be a moot point.
Or more correctly from a pure RAW
If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
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The question wasn't about whether you'd beat his roll. Obviously none of us would beat his roll. And I also understand that the rules say he's flat footed. My point is to argue that the rule is not accurate. I play it that way anyway cuz I play by the book, but its not accurate. But back to my argument, how can you assume everyone who gets the first swing also hits that person easier because they were distracted for some reason? That's obviously not always the case.
Also, you are misunderstanding how surprise rounds work. I just read it again and I am correct. There is not always a surprise round, so that can not he the reason that causes flat footed at the beginingg of combat. I'm reading the hardcopy and don't want to type it all out but if you care to look its on page 178 of the CRB.
Paraphrased when combat is decided upon roll initiative. Then decide who was aware of the hostile circumstance, they get to act in a surprise round in order of initiative. After surprise round is over, follow initiative including everyone.
That means that multiple creatures can simultaneously he aware of the combat first, while others are not. The rules state that anyone who hasn't acted yet is flat footed, like a domino effect. I'm arguing that group a that gets to act on the surprise round should never be flat footed in the combat while group b is only flat footed during the surprise round
See edit in my previous post.
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Again, there is a point of disconnect here.
If you are flat-footed, you did not see me coming in time to react properly. Period.
If you are coming up with a situation where someone is somehow fully able to react to an incoming attack, but count as flatfooted, there is something wrong with how you are envisioning the scenario, or at what point in the scenario initiative should really have been rolled.
The most understandable situation like this would be some sort of formal duel. If two people agree to fight, and wait for some sort of signal to begin, then no, neither of them are going to be flatfooted, but only because if you are really properly handling that situation, what actually should happen is:
Initiative is rolled.
Duelist A wins initiative, declares that he is readying an action to attack when the flag is dropped. He is now no longer flat-footed.
Duelist B's turn comes around. He also declares he is readying an action to attack when the flag is dropped. He is also no longer flat-footed.
A round or two expires without either of them deviating from this.
The flag is dropped. Both had a readied action for when this happened, so we go with Duelist A first, because he locked it in first.
Informally, you're probably never going to do this (unless someone wants to fight dirty and attack before the flag drops, in which case, yeah, duelist B is going to be flat-footed against duelist A there), you're just going to go "OK, you shake hands, back off, the flag is dropped, roll init" but you should still be taking it as read that everyone involved had time to prepare themselves for combat before blows start flying, i.e. nobody is flat-footed.
The rules generally assume though that most combat is going to begin spontaneously, as soon as any involved party gets it into their head that combat is going to go down. Weapons are being reached for, footing is being found, and the quickest of those involved can hit people before they're bobbing and weaving about.
Bbangert sorry I edited my comment before I bread yur edit lol. Now we are at the same conclusion on that part thought at least
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@googleshng I agree that if I am flat footed I didn't see you coming, I'm just saying that its not always the case that I don't see you coming at the beginning of combat. If I am misunderstanding something then you should be able to point it out. I'm not misunderstanding though.
If I see a fight coming and put up my dukes then I am not flat footed, regardless of whether or jot the other guy gets the first punch or not
Generally in my games combat starts with my group charging. In the 30-40 feet a person would he charging before they attack I would certainly have enough time to realize I'm in combat and no longer be flat footed. Becoming aware of combat = not being flat footed. This isn't even an action so it could certainly he done as the enemy approaches. Flat footed should only he the case when the victim is unaware of the attack
The question wasn't about whether you'd beat his roll. Obviously none of us would beat his roll. And I also understand that the rules say he's flat footed. My point is to argue that the rule is not accurate. I play it that way anyway cuz I play by the book, but its not accurate. But back to my argument, how can you assume everyone who gets the first swing also hits that person easier because they were distracted for some reason? That's obviously not always the case.
What's not accurate about the rule? It's intended to simulate someone being caught off guard. How does it not achieve this end?
As for the why, fluff it however you like. Those were simply examples.