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Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game. Frankly, a guy with a dagger SHOULD be outmatched by a guy with a longsword, all else being equal.
But why would you use a light weapon?
Light weapons are better if you are using Two-Weapon Fighting.
Light weapons are more likely to be able to be thrown.
In a highly urban campaign, there are lots of places it is socially acceptable to wear a short sword or dagger on your belt where a greatsword would be unacceptable.
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-Light weapons are finessable.
-Some abilities only work with certain weapons
-light weapons are easier to conceal
-light weapons are often cheaper to make of special materials
-If you use TWF and want to use the same weapon twice light weapons are better
-You might like the style better
The dagger's swiftness is countered by the sword's length. You have to get much closer to the target to stick it with a dagger ... the guy with the sword can keep you further away.
It's why reach is an advantage in a boxing match.
alright somethings about D&D have been bugging me. like why on earth would anyone use just a light weapon? like as far as game mechanics go they do less damage when a one handed weapon is way better. like to me shouldn't a light weapon be able to strike more times? like a dagger will easily slice you two or three times in the time it takes for that long sword or even great sword to hit you once. maybe a defense bonus because you strike and are on guard faster. but as far as mechanics why would anyone use any of the light weapons when the one handed are better for damage and you can find one with the same crit range. thoughts?
There used to be weapon speeds in the game, waaaay back. Trust me you dont want the mess that comes with that. Well I dont at least. Combat is abstracted for a reason in this system.
That said there are a few reasons.
1. Certain options equalize weapons IE take a look at the playtest version of the War-Priest. There is also the talented monk by rogue genius games which does something similar. So if i can do the same damage as a larger weapon, light weapons have advantages in terms of concealability, and the fact that they are more readily available in certain situations.
I know of at least a couple options also that work specifically with light weapons, such as the daggermaster ability from the shadow assasin, or the abilities of the knifemaster rogue archetype.
2. Coolness factor. There are lots of characters in fiction/movies/tv that use light weapons and kick ass. Sure its not as easy to make awesome as a greatsword, but wading into baddle with a pair of daggers is badass.
3. Many light weapons can be thrown. A very interesting way to be a switch hitter is to use light weapons that can be thrown. You can make optimal use of weapon specific abilities for instance, and again, its cool(in my opinion ofcourse).
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alright somethings about D&D have been bugging me. like why on earth would anyone use just a light weapon? like as far as game mechanics go they do less damage when a one handed weapon is way better. like to me shouldn't a light weapon be able to strike more times? like a dagger will easily slice you two or three times in the time it takes for that long sword or even great sword to hit you once. maybe a defense bonus because you strike and are on guard faster. but as far as mechanics why would anyone use any of the light weapons when the one handed are better for damage and you can find one with the same crit range. thoughts?
Some people don't care about weapons, as potentially their Unarmed Strike or Natural attacks may do more damage : P
ie Monk/Druid
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Er, uh, they're playing a monk? Unarmed strikes are light weapons, right?
They have low carrying capacity due to low strength, in which case they probably aren't relying on their weapon for most of their damage anyway (e.g. wizards.)
It's iconic. Dagger wielding, knife-throwing fighters and rogues have been a fantasy trope for a long time.
They're playing a cleric or inquisitor of Desna, Pharasma, Calistria or Norgorber and want to represent.
It just fits their concept for the character. Maybe they want to play a peasant hero who uses a sickle because it was the only thing he had available the first time orcs attacked his village and now he favors it out of pride or nostalgia.
Basically, dealing damage isn't the most important aspect of a character for some people.
As far as the other part of your question goes, once upon a time there was thing called Weapon Speed Factor. WSF was a number assigned to each weapon that affected initiative rolls. This was back when a low roll meant you acted faster so knives had a WSF of around 2 and two-handed swords (because they weren't called greatswords back then) had something like a 10. All the WSF did was affect who acted first in the round (btw, you rolled initiative every round.) It didn't give anyone more attacks for having a faster weapon because that much math bogs down the game and that's no fun. It also didn't add anything significant to combat because you were still only usually attacking once per round with a weapon that probably did less damage. Sean K. Reynolds wrote some good stuff about Speed Factors and the problems they can create here.
I think light weapons are fine as is.
They have low carrying capacity due to low strength, in which case they probably aren't relying on their weapon for most of their damage anyway (e.g. wizards.)
I have an Infernal Sorcerer who uses a mace (since Asmodeus likes maces and they're simple weapons). He started with a light mace, because the weight difference kept in in a light, instead of medium, load.
The dagger's swiftness is countered by the sword's length. You have to get much closer to the target to stick it with a dagger ... the guy with the sword can keep you further away.
It's why reach is an advantage in a boxing match.
Well, if we are being realistic, then a nice, thin, straight dagger could more easily get through the gaps in heavy armor. Admittedly, real longswords were designed so they could do similar things (often by placing your hand past the handguard, on an unsharpened part of the blade, in order to more easily use it as a pointy piece of metal).
There is also the fact that it might be easier to use a dagger than a longsword for that in a grapple though (which was much, much more common in real life than in game). The rules kind of reflect that (you can't use two handed weapons in a grapple), but much like reach, it is made into an all or nothing deal.
There are also specific scenarios where the light weapon is an advantage. For example using a non-light in a tight corridor may impose a circumstance penalty to hit. I have seen more than a few situations like this pop up in various modules.
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I use a Kukri in case I ever want to Two-Weapon fight with a shield (since a heavy shield is a one-handed weapon). This reduces the penalties on both attacks. (My choices here are Mainhand Longsword -4, Shield -4 vs. Mainhand Shield -2, Kukri -2)
The +2 bonus to hide a dagger (or simliar weapons) is not negligible.
Most light weapons can be thrown- -favoring light weapons lets you use the same weapon in both melee and ranged combat (and get double duty out of things like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical).
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For those with an interest in terrain based tactics and differences, there are options for limits or penalties for some weapons, based on effort grouping and damage type. While most of this would fall in houserules territory, there is also a system written up in WotC's Drow of the Underdark. While a 3.5 publication, this section for dealing with confined spaces is completely compatible.
There used to be weapon speeds in the game, waaaay back. Trust me you dont want the mess that comes with that. Well I dont at least. Combat is abstracted for a reason in this system.
Wasn't actually that bad, just a penalty to your initiative. Since most people use the same weapon most of the time, you just jotted down your initiative with the penalty of your main weapon included, or wrote down a different score for each weapon.
With the right stats, feats, and traits it is easy for 2-weapon dagger fighting fighters to get +4 to +6 on top of base weapon to damage by level 4 to 5. Close to short range flurry of death. Especially if you have high dex and decent str you are good at both melee and range(within about 10-30ft). Granted you basically have a character whose armor is made out of daggers though, lol!
There used to be weapon speeds in the game, waaaay back. Trust me you dont want the mess that comes with that. Well I dont at least. Combat is abstracted for a reason in this system.Wasn't actually that bad, just a penalty to your initiative. Since most people use the same weapon most of the time, you just jotted down your initiative with the penalty of your main weapon included, or wrote down a different score for each weapon.
i think your confusing a 2ed rule with tbe 1ed rule he was referencing. the 1ed rule involved complex math and the person with the dagger might get 4 attacks for every one used by the greatsword.
when the guy with the dagger has 18/00 str the game basically breaks.
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Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game. Frankly, a guy with a dagger SHOULD be outmatched by a guy with a longsword, all else being equal.
Yeah, but that's an argument about reach that the game does absolutely nothing to tackle. (ie: That longsword is much more lethal when it can utilize it's longer reach than the dagger. If the dagger-wielder gets inside that reach, however, he becomes much more deadly... Which the game refuses to simulate.)
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Yeah, but that's an argument about reach that the game does absolutely nothing to tackle. (ie: That longsword is much more lethal when it can utilize it's longer reach than the dagger. If the dagger-wielder gets inside that reach, however, he becomes much more deadly... Which the game refuses to simulate.)Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game. Frankly, a guy with a dagger SHOULD be outmatched by a guy with a longsword, all else being equal.
It tries to with Monkey Style, but it does a really bad job of it.
Yeah, but that's an argument about reach that the game does absolutely nothing to tackle. (ie: That longsword is much more lethal when it can utilize it's longer reach than the dagger. If the dagger-wielder gets inside that reach, however, he becomes much more deadly... Which the game refuses to simulate.)Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game. Frankly, a guy with a dagger SHOULD be outmatched by a guy with a longsword, all else being equal.
There are just limitations on accuracy and game mechanics. The length different between the weapons might be one, maybe two feet. While that is important in real life, where even the slightest sliver of difference matter.... in game we use 5 foot squares. Now, you are more than invited to try to rebuild the system from such a fundamental part of its foundations... but you might just be better off with a new game entirely.
Meanwhile, I will enjoy punching this orc's kidney's out in a manner that can be just as effective as if I used a longsword to stab him there. Because I can, and I enjoy that fact, despite the simple reality that one's own hands would have the worst reach of all in this scenario.
The big reasons that come to mind right away would be
1- Two Weapon Fighting. One weapon must be a light weapon or you suffer serious penalties
2- Weapon Fitness. An essential feat for any Dex build. A weapon must be light to be finesseable
There are other minor reasons as well but those are the main ones
Yeah, but that's an argument about reach that the game does absolutely nothing to tackle. (ie: That longsword is much more lethal when it can utilize it's longer reach than the dagger. If the dagger-wielder gets inside that reach, however, he becomes much more deadly... Which the game refuses to simulate.)Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game. Frankly, a guy with a dagger SHOULD be outmatched by a guy with a longsword, all else being equal.
Just FYI, I'm not saying, "this is something that needs to be fixed." I'm just pointing out why I think the quoted argument is never a valid one.
Yeah, but that's an argument about reach that the game does absolutely nothing to tackle. (ie: That longsword is much more lethal when it can utilize it's longer reach than the dagger. If the dagger-wielder gets inside that reach, however, he becomes much more deadly... Which the game refuses to simulate.)Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game. Frankly, a guy with a dagger SHOULD be outmatched by a guy with a longsword, all else being equal.
It does, abstractly, by saying 'these two factors cancel one another out'. Just not explicitly.
I have seen a system that does it; all weapons got a size category, Short, Medium, or Long (Long2 for actual reach weapons like polearms). When two people square off, the one with the shorter weapon is at a penalty to hit; but once he does hit, he's 'inside the range' of the other weapon and the penalty is reversed until the other guy hits him back, or moves to be non-adjacent. More trouble than it's worth, IMHO.
BTW, this wasn't a d20 game, so I didn't bother with the actual numbers.
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I would disagree that light weapons should get more attacks. I can't picture anyone swinging a short sword any faster than a long sword. I could see 2 handed weapons getting less attacks though, but I could also see them doing more damage with a single blow so I guess it all balances out
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I'm just pointing out why I think the quoted argument is never a valid one.Not all options are equal in the real world.
There is no reason for them to all be equal in a game.
I wasn't trying to say there is no artistry in fighting with a smaller weapon, nor that the fellow with the longsword has a guaranteed win.
I was just saying that not all choices have to be equal: that things that are different are allowed to be different.
You are underwater! That dagger works a lot better than the longsword. Now I know this is a piercing thing and not a light weapon thing but it just so happens some of the most frequently used light weapons are piercing.
Also, a dagger is of less value than a longsword in melee. That's why warriors drew their longswords in battle instead of daggers. You can't introduce a mechanic that evens them up when the experts say one is superior
True underwater is a different story, but it calls for rules of its own. Perhaps those could use some work, but not regular melee rules for the weapons
I use daggers to remind myself to stay out of melee...
A dagger in a grapple is handy.
I use daggers to remind myself to stay out of melee...
lol
A dagger in a grapple is handy.
agreed. There are certainly circumstances where they are better than a sword, primary melee weapon just isn't one of them
@Vampiricshaman if you just like daggers you could work on creating an archetype that gets special attacks with a dagger that mimics the monks flurry of blows. Take special care in what you shed in order to balance the gain though
@Vampiricshaman if you just like daggers you could work on creating an archetype that gets special attacks with a dagger that mimics the monks flurry of blows. Take special care in what you shed in order to balance the gain though
Or ..you know...use it with the actual flurry of blows. There are options there. Typically, the easiest way to do so would be to take the Sohei archetype.
Starting there, you can do such things from level 1. This relies upon the Lungchuan tamo, which is just a fancy dagger with worse critical range. Yeah, a monk weapon that is martial and not an automatic proficiency...real useful for anyone that isn't a sohei, no? At level 6, you can pick the thrown weapons group for your weapon training, and use actual daggers for your flurry.
A dagger in a grapple is Dandy.:)
A dagger in a grapple is Dandy.:)
A dagger vs. scrapple is Dinner. :)
A dagger in a grapple is Dandy.:)
But a Ray Gun is Space☆Dandy. Baby.
Anyway, since I feel like I have to add something constructive: the whole 'sohei with a dagger' thing is admittedly not optimal though. You are still better off just using a two handed weapon(temple sword or the countless spears you can get through weapon training), due to power attack bonuses.
A dagger in a grapple is handy.
All being Grappled means is that you can't use a dedicated two-handed weapon like a greatsword. There is nothing stopping you from slashing your grapple happy enemy with a longsword or scimitar.
-light weapons are often cheaper to make of special materials
Pretty much every special material gives a listing for light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, ammunition, and weapons. The weapon category does not have subdivisions so it costs the same extra to make an Adamantine greatsword as it goes a dagger. Is there a rule somewhere that contradicts this?
EDIT: I went and rechecked the special materials that would be likely to see actual play, silver, cold Iron, and adamantine. I was wrong, silver and cold iron would most likely be cheaper as light weapons, but the price difference is pretty much negligible unless you're very low level. Adamantine, the most expensive, is constant for weapons. Still seems like a flimsy point in favor of light weapons though considering the actual difference in price.
That said, the answer is mostly style (either mechanical with Two Weapon Fighting or personal) and some niche abilities (Knifemaster sneak attack).
A dagger in a grapple is handy.All being Grappled means is that you can't use a dedicated two-handed weapon like a greatsword. There is nothing stopping you from slashing your grapple happy enemy with a longsword or scimitar.
-light weapons are often cheaper to make of special materialsPretty much every special material gives a listing for light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, ammunition, and weapons. The weapon category does not have subdivisions so it costs the same extra to make an Adamantine greatsword as it goes a dagger. Is there a rule somewhere that contradicts this?
That said, the answer is mostly style (either mechanical with Two Weapon Fighting or personal) and some niche abilities (Knifemaster sneak attack).
The only one I can think of is mithral. That does not have a listed value for weapons, so it goes by weight instead. Useful if you want the advantages of silver without it being actually silver (and can't get a +3 weapon)
@lemeres oh yeah, I forgot you can use monk weapons with flurry of blows lol. Still, if all he wanted from monk was flurry of blows limited to daggers I could certainly see it being an archetype for rogues or assassins
Titan Mauler's Massive Weapon ability are most effective if you use a huge Wakizashi or Aklys, which are both light weapons. Class with 3/4 BAB progression can be highly benefit if they use light weapons with high crit range for two weapons fighting, basically you just try to crit instead of hit as you might still miss even if you rolled 19. Especially any dex based or int based characters who are melee but have not way to increase their attack bonus effectively. It is easier to try crit with 15 or 17-20/x2 with -2 to hit than to hit with 20/x3 with +2 to hit, because feats like critical focus and other traits will help you confirm the crit while your normal attack bonus are still in use. But light weapons are not as good for ranger, fighter, paladin and barbarian. Especially full fighter at level 20 as they can auto crit with their chosen weapon, in which case you want as much weapon damage and crit multiplier as much as possible. Same for barbarian with mighty swing.
-light weapons are often cheaper to make of special materialsPretty much every special material gives a listing for light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, ammunition, and weapons. The weapon category does not have subdivisions so it costs the same extra to make an Adamantine greatsword as it goes a dagger. Is there a rule somewhere that contradicts this?
EDIT: I went and rechecked the special materials that would be likely to see actual play, silver, cold Iron, and adamantine. I was wrong, silver and cold iron would most likely be cheaper as light weapons, but the price difference is pretty much negligible unless you're very low level. Adamantine, the most expensive, is constant for weapons. Still seems like a flimsy point in favor of light weapons though considering the actual difference in price.
That said, the answer is mostly style (either mechanical with Two Weapon Fighting or personal) and some niche abilities (Knifemaster sneak attack).
I often have low level PCs I build have light backup weapons made from special materials. Most of the time I combined that with having them deal different kinds of damage. That way even a low level martial can counter most kinds of DR in some way.
At higher levels the cost becomes less relevant but the weight/size can still be a factor. Running around with three dwarven waraxes can be a strain on believability.
And I did not hear another important property of the light weapon. The weight of light weapons is very little and if you have a low strength encumbrance may be a problem and light weapons will help you to make sure you keep a light load.
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Rule 9: Always carry a knife.