More skill point continue to be the most popular option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Something like this? (second quote block before end of post)What would really help the fighter would be an ability that gives the fighter 1/2 his level on one or two skills. This would give him an edge out of combat because he can, if he wants, be better at something than most other classes.
Good options would be profession: Soldier and perception.
Yes, something like that.
The fighter is fine as is.
That option is avaliabe for voting. Please vote for it.
The fighter is fine as is.
Now that is two threads that I have seen you make a useless unhelpful comment.
Bravo! Keep up the good work.
4 skill points per level base and add a good will save progression and the fighter is once more king of the mundanes!..imnsho
Oh, and make perception a class skill.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Better yet, eliminate Perception as a skill entirely. Make it a level+Wis check vs the Stealth Skill. (One fewer skills everybody HAS to take, and it gives the sneaks who have stealth as a class skill a small leg up on their stealthing.)
This is a terrible idea. All it does is give everyone an extra skill point, and guarantee the sneaky guy that he will always be facing an enemy who has a maxed out perception check.
As opposed to taxing everyone a skill point, when the sneaky guy is already facing enemies who all have maxed out perception checks?
Not every monster in the bestiaries, and not every Tom, Dick, and Henrietta in a city have maxed out perception scores. It also takes a skill point tax away from not just the fighter, but the wizard, and the cleric, and the Druid, and the Sorcerer, who all gain relatively more from a free skill point than the classes that typically invest in stealth (Ranger, Rogue, Ninja, etc.).
The fighter is fine as is.Now that is two threads that I have seen you make a useless unhelpful comment.
Bravo! Keep up the good work.
I admit to a certain level of frustration and weariness with the "rogue sucks" and the "fighter is lame" threads. Thus, my short, to the point posts. My apologies for that. I let the frustration get the better of me.
I don't see the classes as "broke", "weak", "unplayable" or anything of the sort.
I think the Pathfinder classes are far superior to those designed in 3.0 and 3.5. I think all the core classes are fun to play. My player who is interested in rogues keeps making rogues, enjoys the play and has been effective in different situations, so that's how I measure if that particular class is effective. The rogue is my group is very good as doing the things rogues do well: sneaking, eliminating traps, sneak attacking, using his skills to solve obstacles and so forth. The Dwarf Fighter is the best fighter in the group from what we've experience with all of his nifty feats that make him excel in combat.
I take Paizo at their word. They put the labor into play testing this stuff to the nth degree, so I'm trusting in the product and warily looking at all of these suggested changes as really potential game breakers rather than game fixes.
Then again how my group plays might just be different than some of groups out there. My group will take a feat that may not optimize the character but certainly fits the character. Even weapon choices and armor choice is driven by culture, look, motif or storyline.
Too often I look at these threads and get a sense that if something isn't fully optimized or you can't come to the table with great saves in all categories, the best BAB and crazy amounts of damage, there's something wrong with the class and the decisions to play or not a play a class are based on pure number crunching. It's video game syndrome.
When a player sits down at the table with me, I don't...
Stormwind fallacy.
I must admit though, seeing a systhesist summoner at the table blowing though encounters and wiping his arse with fighter oriented loot takes some of the fun away. Every sessions, I'm just hoping for his character to die so that he roll something a little less broken, and maybe we could add other melee characters without them being objectively inferior.
I wouldn't mind seeing more skill points and a Good Will save. However, I think the main difficulty for the fighter is in heavy mechanical systems like 3.X/PF (as compared to less mechanical ones like some of the simple forms of D&D) is fighting the "need a feat for that" phenomenon (or the perception there of) to do something specific other than hit somebody over the head.
An exception based ruled system with specific delineations on special moves (with built in restrictions discouraging their use unless mitigated by substantial investment with feats, such as combat maneuvers) seems to me to naturally favor spellcasters. In that, sometimes the more you define mechanical options as specific feats/abilities, the more you can take away from what the mundanes could've done before without them. However, since spellcasters generally do the impossible with their spells, more options generally expand their power and versatility.
Therefore, were I to redesign the fighter, I would implement that wouldn't require permanent choices so as to avoid diluting the fighter more. Instead, I might try putting in things that could enhance the fighter's versatility and spontaneity. Perhaps some kind of stunt or deeds system. Or allowing the fighter's latest feat be a feat that can be swapped out in a manner similar to some of the other classes in PF.
I also think many of the combat maneuver feats could be combined/galvanized. Improved Overrun and Improved Bullrush seem to be a natural for this sort of thing, for example.
This tread obviously belongs in the "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew" forum.
So, while I like the current fighter and I am in the school of thought that prefers the fighter to be a non-supernatural warrior...
...I can get behind the 4+ Int Skill Ranks and a secondary save. Bravery is a fun concept, but a bit too limited. Maybe a similar ability that covers fear, illusions, and mind-altering effects? Would broaden the scope of the ability some. Some maneuver ideas from ToB would be cool, but again, my preference is more of the extraordinary rather than the eupernatural. I would like to see Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization scale with fighter level. Though that would mess with the math a bit, especially with buffs and such.
Since the fighter is dependent on gear, how about their weapon training makes their weapon cheaper? For example, if you have weapon training 1 with a longsword, it is X amount cheaper. Same with armor. Would free up some cash for some wondrous items to get around other issues like full attacking and flying and such.
That's probably all I'd really change though. I like the bonus feats and the fighter only feats. Though I'm waiting for Inner Sea Combat to see what cool stuff will be in that book.
Just checking here Odraude, concerning your coment about ToB and Extraordinary rather than Supernatural...
You are aware that Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven are all pretty much Extraordinary not Supernatural right?
If you don't have ToB and wanted to check, WotC put the maneuvers online for free
My apologies, I should have been more clear on that. I didn't mean the actual types (Ex) and (Su). I guess I mean the theme of the powers. So, Blistering Flourish would be too supernatural for my tastes. But, Avalanche of Blades would fit my tastes much more I feel. Again, though, it is definitely a matter of taste.
I probably shouldn't have capitalized Extraordinary and Supernatural. I'll edit that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just checking here Odraude, concerning your coment about ToB and Extraordinary rather than Supernatural...
You are aware that Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven are all pretty much Extraordinary not Supernatural right?
If you don't have ToB and wanted to check, WotC put the maneuvers online for free
My apologies, I should have been more clear on that. I didn't mean the actual types (Ex) and (Su). I guess I mean the theme of the powers. So, Blistering Flourish would be too supernatural for my tastes. But, Avalanche of Blades would fit my tastes much more I feel. Again, though, it is definitely a matter of taste.
I probably shouldn't have capitalized Extraordinary and Supernatural. I'll edit that.
Thankfully (and I'm not being sarcastic here, seriously - just informative, no intended insult or anything) the aforementioned schools of disciplines are extraordinary in theme as well. Check it out:
Iron Heart is the discipline of raw skill. It emphasizes techniques that echo real-world swordsmanship, such as parries, sweeps, and lunges. On the crazier end of things, it does Captain America throws (bonus points: use your shield as a weapon, yell "Stars and stripes!") and of course the infamous Iron Heart Surge, which while crappily edited is pretty extraordinary in nature since it's just a BY CROM! sort of deal.
Stone Dragon, aside from having The Most Ignored Rule Of All Time (you have to be touching solid earth or stone to use it - ignore this) is the discipline of Hitting Crap Really Hard, and if it doesn't die, it also Hits It Harder. It does charges, MOUNTAIN HAMMER, ability damage fluffed as broken bones, TWO MORE MOUNTAIN HAMMER STRIKES, grapples, that kind of thing. Did I mention MOUNTAIN HAMMER?
Tiger Claw is the discipline of savage ferocity. It's literally the, "I like Barbarian fluff, but have grown bored with Rage mechanics," discipline. It emphasizes ferocious leaps, pounce mechanics, and two-weapon fighting. I think the most magical thing out of this discipline is gaining the Scent quality as a first-level stance, which - if you read and/or watch a lot of fantasy novels, that's not all that magic.
White Raven is the discipline of cooperation and tactics. It does coordination, tanking, and cooperation. White Raven Tactics has infamous power-usage issues but fluff-wise is just extraordinary coordination and leadership; nothing about this discipline is even remotely magic.
And a couple of others:
Setting Sun turns an opponent's force against them with reactive counters and throws. No magical flavor here at all, though it does belong to the most magical class (swordsage).
Diamond Mind emphasizes incredible concentration and serenity in the pursuit of making the perfect strike. It's kinda Zen, but not magical in flavor or execution. This is also perfect if you like draw-cut styles; flavor the Nightmare Blade line that way and take Quick Draw.
I take Paizo at their word. They put the labor into play testing this stuff to the nth degree, so I'm trusting in the product and warily looking at all of these suggested changes as really potential game breakers rather than game fixes.
Paizo is basing the Pathfinder game off the 3.0 game. The game designers (specifically an article by Monte Cook) called out the fact that they designed the game with system mastery involved.
Remember, WotC was making Magic the Gathering a big thing at the time, so I'm sure the direction from up top was to make D&D follow suit with a winning model (competitive card game play).So we have a base chassis of a game that was designed on purpose to have "bad decisions" and "good decisions" where a player who played the game longer and "better" could have advantage over someone who didn't know all the little nitty gritty.
This was built into the game.
So yes, there's an inherent "poor choice" of classes, feats, spells, options, that were done on purpose. It's anti-thesis to a roleplaying game that was designed for cooperative, story-driven gameplay, but there you have it.
What's sad is seeing that people are so used to this, over decade later, that they don't even see the system mastery as a thing anymore.
.
If I built a roleplaying game from the ground up, I'd make it so that all options were good options. That doesn't mean "make them all equal" or even "feel the same" (like the main detriment of 4e, I felt), but at least keeping options in the same ballpark.
You want to be a really good confidence artist rogue? Great! It should be an option that can work in this game, and compete against people casting Gate and Wish at 17th level.
So we have a base chassis of a game that was designed on purpose to have "bad decisions" and "good decisions" where a player who played the game longer and "better" could have advantage over someone who didn't know all the little nitty gritty.
This was built into the game.
That is awful.
That is awful.So we have a base chassis of a game that was designed on purpose to have "bad decisions" and "good decisions" where a player who played the game longer and "better" could have advantage over someone who didn't know all the little nitty gritty.
This was built into the game.
Yes and no. The problem isn't that there are good and bad decisions, as there will always be those. For example, it will probably always be a bad decision for the stereotypical archer to take power attack, and sunder line of feats. I'm not talking about a specific, niche build idea here. Just the basic archer who sits in the back and wrecks enemies with a volley of arrows he launches every round.
I don't think anyone would agree that it's a bad idea to have a system where some decisions make more sense for a character design than another. Otherwise there would only be 1 class, and feats wouldn't actually customize your character because everyone would take the same feats. Anything else would just be superfluous.
So if the problem isn't when there are bad decisions, when is it bad? When the bad choices are hidden, or not made obvious. Power attack is a clearly wasted feat for an archer that doesn't intend to wade into combat with a two-handed weapon. Imagine if there were two feats, with the second being more useful as a prerequisite for feat chains:
- Great Archery Skill: You gain a +3 enhancement bonus to attack rolls with bows.
- Minor Archery Skill: You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls with bows.
A less experienced player might think that the first option is better because it gives a higher bonus, but it's actually a "trap" option. Greater Archery Skill doesn't stack with your masterwork weapon or any +X modifiers on your weapon, and the second feat is more useful for feat prerequisites.
That first feat is not only worse, though. It's also falsely labeled as "Great Archery Skill," implying it's better when that isn't the case. There's also the issue that to recognize that it's worse requires the forethought to value prerequisites feats down the road and an understanding of how bonuses stack to recognize that it's worse.
That's when a bad option becomes a trap option, and a bad piece of game design.
Except there are also a great many trap options which don't belong in ANY competitive build. Feats that are just taking up page count.
Yes. It is horrible, I find it totally dishonest. But are we sure PF is made that way?
Design Manager
|
Except there are also a great many trap options which don't belong in ANY competitive build. Feats that are just taking up page count.
There's relatively few of those in the core line, and when there are (like Prone Shooter) they usually fix them when they realize there's an issue. Unfortunately, it's not practical for them to do FAQ or errata on the softcover splatbooks, so when something crappy does slip in there, it probably won't be fixed (like Elephant Stomp, which was edited for space but ended up losing important text and is now actually worse than what you could do without the feat). What the books do have is a lot of conditional feats and abilities that sound awesome but may or may not have any use at all in a given game. Typically these are still useful in the situations they are designed for though.
People often take the Magic the Gathering references out of context; Magic specifically does have truly bad options as part of the overall balance of the game which is necessary for a competitive environment. Pathfinder, like Magic, has to control what options it allows into it's games, meaning that the overall power of every feat in the game needs to account for a certain amount of variance. Some feats are generally very good and widely applicable (like Power Attack) where other feats are very focused and may not be as universally helpful (like Skilled Driver). In any given book, there needs to be a fair balance between highly situational feats like Skilled Driver, and generally useful and powerful feats like Power Attack, and in that respect it's very much like Magic.
Now that is two threads that I have seen you make a useless unhelpful comment.
Bravo! Keep up the good work.
He gave his opinion on a thread asking to give options. He answered honestly.
Your post on the other hand only served to criticize another person, and dismiss their opinion. This is the first of your posts that I have seen that have added nothing to the conversation.
As for my addition to the conversation.
4 skill points per level.
This will give the fighter more variety in capabilities, help other classes with their tasks, be less of a liability in some situations, and more importantly help to flesh out the character mechanically.
Make the weapon focus, and specialization feats class features in addition to similar features, and bonus feats. Weapon specialization is the fighters original ability, he should do it with out cost, and better than every one else.
Allow the fighter to make a second full BAB attack on a full action action with the specialized weapon at 10th level. At 15 he can do a second attack as a standard action. Again weapon specialization is the fighter's original special ability. The fighter needs to do it better than any other class, with it's own unique addition. (toying with this idea now)
Bluff, Perception, and diplomacy are class skills.
Fighters use bluff to faint in combat as well as use this skill to mask his capabilities from their opponents. A perceptive fighter as an alive fighter. Diplomacy is the catch all social skill, it's used to negotiate at a merchant stand, create agreements with allies, and used for communicating, and commanding soldiers, guards, thugs, and other such subordinates. The 10 level fighter that is supposed to be a general needs to actually have the social skills of one.
The fighter can pick one additional knowledge skill as a class skill.
{edit}
forgot one. Fighters get good will saves. A week willed fighter is a dead fighter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Make it so that combat feats scale. No more of this Improved->Greater->Mastery crap. Shrinking the number of feats required to do one thing would increase the Fighter's capability to use her bonus feats to do many things.
I also think that high level combat feats should allow you to do incredibly cinematic actions (exclusively within the realm of "this guy is so strong he can [cool thing]" of course) but from reading earlier posts in this thread I know that's a rather controversial topic.
Re: Ivory Town Design
It was more prevalent back in 3e when things like Toughness and Skill Focus were a lot worse than before. Toughness was specifically called out as a feat really meant only for a low hp character, and even then, probably just a one-shot where other more longterm useful feats wouldn't see use.
While that is "technically" a use, it's the fact that it isn't called out to the user that that was the intent for the feat means that invariably someone goes in seeing "Toughness! I want a tough character! I take that" and gimp themselves.
Now, while Pathfinder bumped up a lot of these (and 3.5e did too), it's still the basic framework that the game is built on, so minor changes here or there won't solve glaring design issues that many have been poking holes through since before Pathfinder came out.
This is why it'd take such a major overhaul to correct these things, and you have folks ending up with stuff like Kirthfinder. ;)
*Edit*
For what it's worth, I don't see Pathfinder adding that much in the way of new content that works this way. For the most part.
I mean, it's hard to keep things balanced with the old and still make it viable without seeming like total power creep or outright overpowered in comparison.
I've been fairly happy with all the classes they've put out, for example.
Besides the changes I've suggested earlier in the thread, I agree with some basic system reworks mentioned. Feat chains replaced by scaling feats, options like Power Attack and Combat Expertise as combat actions anyone can try, as well as perhaps a reverse PA that trades damage to gain accuracy.
@Kaisoku
There was a thread about terrible feats, I remember one or two off the top of my head.
Make it so that combat feats scale. No more of this Improved->Greater->Mastery crap. Shrinking the number of feats required to do one thing would increase the Fighter's capability to use her bonus feats to do many things.
I also think that high level combat feats should allow you to do incredibly cinematic actions (exclusively within the realm of "this guy is so strong he can [cool thing]" of course) but from reading earlier posts in this thread I know that's a rather controversial topic.
Two things I've looked at trying out on Fighters and high level stuff in general...
For feat trees...
Combat Versatility (Ex): A fighter is always training in a wide array of combat tactics. At 1st level, the fighter gains a bonus feat that can be selected from those listed as combat feats. Due to his diverse training, a fighter does not need to meet the ability score or feat requirements for these feats. Instead the fighter gains all feats included in the prerequisites if he does not already have them; the only exception is that style feats require the fighter having improved unarmed strike from a source other than combat versatility.
Once a day, if a fighter can spend an hour training, he can change the feat for another which he qualifies. At every even level after 1st a fighter gains an additional bonus combat feat that can be selected and retrained in this manner. A fighter can choose to leave these feat choices open. If he does, he can select a feat choice at a later time as a full-round action.
Feats gained by Combat Versatility cannot be used as prerequisites for feats gained by other means (such as regular feats gained every odd level).
.
For high level cinematic action...
New Feat Type: Exploits
Exploit feats grant new supernatural abilities that are dependant on wielding or carrying a magic item. The user exploits the magical energy in the item to perform these new abilities. All exploit feats have a prerequisite of some kind of magical item. Unique items specific for the feat have their creation method listed in the Special.
Many exploit feats temporarily drain some of the magic of the item to gain their effect. If a magic weapon, shield or armor's enhancement bonus is reduced to 0, the weapon is temporarily treated as non-magical and loses all magical effects until the duration is over.
EXPLOIT MAGIC DEVICE
You are able to tap into the magic of your items to create powerful new effects.
Prerequisites: Use Magic Device 11 ranks or base attack bonus +11
Benefit: While wielding a magical weapon or item, you can perform supernatural combat and skill maneuvers. Upon selecting this feat, you may select a single Exploit feat.
Example Feats
PUISSANT (Exploit)
You are a giant in strength, and even sometimes in size.
Prerequisites: Str 21, Exploit Magic Device, base attack bonus +11, wearing a magic belt
Benefit: While wearing a magical belt, you are not limited by the size of your opponent when making combat maneuvers. Also, you gain the following supernatural abilities.
Demolition - When attacking objects, you gain a +10 bonus to damage and to Strength checks against break DCs.
Giant Form - As a swift action, you can grow one size category larger (doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8). You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, and gain the new bonuses and penalties of the new size category (other than ability score adjustments). This does not stack with any other effects that alter your size.
The size change comes into effect the following round, and requires a swift action each round to maintain, otherwise you shrink back down to normal size and lose the benefits the following round. Alternatively, you can spend a full round action to immediately grow in size for a duration of 1 minute, however you lose the magical benefits of the belt for that duration.
.
OVERWHELMING MANEUVERS (Exploit)
You are a juggernaut of force in combat.
Prerequisites: Str 21, Exploit Magic Device, Puissant, base attack bonus +13, wielding a magical weapon
Benefit: When performing the following maneuvers you affect your foes much more drastically, or can affect an entire area.
Bull Rush - On a successful bull rush, the target flies a minimum of 50 feet, and an additional 50 feet if you exceed their CMD by 5 or more. The target takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 10 feet of travel they must make. Anyone in the victim's path is also subjected to your bull rush check, and takes similar damage based on the remaining distance they will have to travel. If the victim(s) strike an object, that object takes similar damage. If this breaks the object the victims continue; if not, the victims fall prone and take that additional damage as well.
Grapple - You can start and maintain a grapple, and pin all with a single hand. Doing so means you do not gain the grappled condition. You cannot deal grapple damage while maintaining a grapple in this way, although you can attack normally with another limb. You can use the modified reposition or drag maneuver (see below) to toss your victim, ending the grapple.
Overrun - When making an overrun attempt, you affect an area twice as wide as the area you occupy, however you only need to succeed against a single opponent to continue moving. When you successfully overrun a target, they take 5d6 bludgeoning damage. This is increased to 10d6 if you exceed their CMD by 5 or more.
Reposition or Drag - On a successful reposition or drag, you can instead toss your target 50 feet, and an additional 50 feet if you exceed their CMD by 5 or more. The victim can be moved into or through a space that is intrinsically dangerous when tossed in this way. Any creatures or objects in the path of this victim are subjected as if from a modified bull rush check (see above).
Trip - You can slam the ground with your foot or weapon, causing a shockwave that threatens to trip all enemies in an area. You may affect either a 25 foot radius burst, or a 50 foot cone; all creatures in the area are affected by your one trip attempt. Also, the ground in the area of effect is now treated as difficult terrain.
Using these maneuvers in this way reduces the enhancement bonus of your weapon by 1 for each different maneuver used. This lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: An item that provides an enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes (such as the amulet of mighty fists) can be used as the requisite magic weapon for this feat.
.
SKYWARD (Exploit)
You can leap into the air, fighting flying creatures on their own terms.
Prerequisites: Expoit Magic Device, Acrobatics 11 ranks or base attack bonus +11, wearing magical shoulder wear
Benefit: While wearing a shoulder slot item (such as capes, cloaks, or pauldrons), you can gain the ability to fly. The magic item reshapes into a semblance of wings, granting a flight speed equal to your land speed. While flying in this manner, you use your Acrobatics skill for Fly checks. Your maneuverability is based on speed: 10 or less (Clumsy), 20 (Poor), 30 (Average), 60 (Good), 90 or higher (Perfect). Maneuverability and size modifiers are applied to the acrobatics checks as normal for the fly skill.
You must spend a swift action to activate and maintain this flight each round. If you are in the air when the effect ends, you fall at a normal rate but take no damage and land upright.
If instead you spend a full round action, you gain flight until actively stopped, however the magical benefits of the worn item are temporarily deactivated. Flight in this manner can be ended as a free action, immediately returning the magical abilities of the item, although you fall normally, taking normal falling damage.
.
WEAPON CABLE (Exploit)
You have learned extraordinary combat and utilty skills with a unique weapon cord.
Prerequisites: Exploit Magic Device, base attack bonus +13, wielding an adamantine cable
Benefit: You have learned a series of tricks and combat abilities that rely on your special made adamantine weapon cable.
Ranged Strike - You have learned how to make lightning fast thrown attacks that use the cable to bring the weapon instantly back to you. You may make melee attacks with this weapon at a range of 50 feet. If the weapon is a normal throwing weapon, it is limited to 50 feet maximum range but you can return the weapon to your hand immediately.
Entangling Strike - You may use your weapon to make a disarm, sunder or trip combat maneuver at a range of up to 50 feet. If you fail to trip, you cannot be tripped in return.
You can also entangle a target using a grapple check. When done in this manner, you are connected to the target and can attempt to drag or reposition them (though a reposition always has to be to a square in your direction). You can attempt to tie up an entangled target with a further grapple check (at the normal -10 penalty).
Garrote - You may use just the weapon cord itself to strangle a victim. If the victim was unaware of the attack completely (either because you were hidden, or not considered a threat), and you are adjacent to them, you can make an attack roll with the wire (it is treated as a +5 close weapon). If you are successful, you are considered grappling the victim and they must make a grapple check on their turn to break your hold vs your grapple CMD + 5. If they fail to break your grapple, they fall unconscious by their next turn as if they had failed their constitution check for drowning. Continuing to strangle the victim causes them to continue the drowning process (next round they are at -1 and dying, the following round they are dead).
As this is strangulation, and not just suffocation, this ability functions on creatures that don't need to breathe, but still have a circulatory system.
Grappling Hook - You may use your weapon and weapon cord as a 50 foot long grappling hook. Failing your climb check and falling only drops you back to the 50 foot length.
Special: Two weapons can be used with these abilities, however you only have 25 foot reach with each weapon, unless you have an adamantine cable for each.
Item Statistics:
Adamantine Cable
Aura faint transmutation; CL 11th
Slot none; Price 15,000 gp; Weight -
Description
This wire thin metal cable is actually made of woven threads of adamantine, and is a little over 50 feet long. It is typically connected at one end to a belt, scabbard, vambrace or gauntlet, and the other end to a weapon. Attaching and removing a weapon (or from your person) requires a move action. The wire automatically re-coils itself when no force is exerted on it.
It is extremely thin, almost impossible to see (-40 to checks to see the wire), and has a hardness of 40 with 6 hitpoints, and a break DC of 35. If the magic is disrupted, then it's inherent properties are a hardness of 20, 2 hitpoints, and a break DC of 25, and it loses the ability to coil itself.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, adamantine wire (3,000 gp, DC 35 metalworking), animate rope, fabricate, make whole; Cost 9,000 gp
.
These are just in the idea stage (no testing), and absolutely over the top on purpose, so I am sure most people will balk at it at first (I want to see what it's like in testing though, so I'm going for broke!).
I agree with the basic idea that they need 4 skill points. Almost everyone I know agrees they need perception as a class skill. It just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't. I have several friends who are ex-military, some of which who saw actual combat, who all say that one of the first things they teach is how to spot the enemy. Spotting the enemy is what professional soldiers do.
As for other general fixes I figure I should come at it from a different angle than what I've seen in the thread so far. There are a ton of posts though so I might have missed some and might be just reposting ideas. Hopefully my ideas aren't too bad, yeah?
Combat Maneuver Master: Starting at level 2 all fighters add half their fighter level (rounded down) to any combat maneuver they make.
This promotes the idea of being a straight fighter. This also gives them options in combat no matter what build they are as well. Honestly a +10 bonus to CMB at level 20 isn't the most powerful thing ever either.
Heavy Blows: Starting at level 8 all fighters deal double weapon damage on every attack. This effect does not apply to any extra damage from enchants, strength, or other misc. modifiers. At level 16 they deal triple. This effects stacks with, but is not multiplied by, Vital Strike.
This would help keep their damage competitive. At level 8 they would deal 4d6 with a great sword on every attack. At 16 they would deal 6d6. With greater vital strike at level 16 they deal 12d6 as a standard action.
Bravery: Add the fighter's class level as a bonus to saves versus fear. At level 10 the fighter becomes immune to fear effects.
Promotes the idea of a fearless warrior.
Weapon Training: Each time this ability is gained the fighter gains an additional +1 to hit and damage.
Just get rid of weapon groups. Virtually no one is going to a weapon outside of the first weapon group they choose unless it's a shiny new magic weapon that's way way beyond what they were wielding. Even then they might not because of weapon focus and weapon spec.
Of course there are dozens of way to go about things and these are just a few of them. These idea are very simple though and maybe that's the way to go about it.
Heavy Blows: Starting at level 8 all fighters deal double weapon damage on every attack. This effect does not apply to any extra damage from enchants, strength, or other misc. modifiers. At level 16 they deal triple. This effects stacks with, but is not multiplied by, Vital Strike.
This would help keep their damage competitive. At level 8 they would deal 4d6 with a great sword on every attack. At 16 they would deal 6d6. With greater vital strike at level 16 they deal 12d6 as a standard action.
I don't think anyone is saying the Fighter needs to be able to do more damage; the issue is that, like pretty much all martials, it requires being able to full attack. That said, I like the concept. Maybe instead of just every hit give the Fighter a built in consolation prize for not full attacking?
I don't think anyone is saying the Fighter needs to be able to do more damage; the issue is that, like pretty much all martials, it requires being able to full attack. That said, I like the concept. Maybe instead of just every hit give the Fighter a built in consolation prize for not full attacking?
When I say competitive I really mean more along the lines of threatening. You should be afraid to let a fighter get up in your face and do their thing. They don't have fancy tricks or abilities.
Plus it just feels like what a fighter should be about. "I hit things. Hard."
I have been reading more of the posts and saw about a variation on Vital Strike that basically applies whenever the fighter makes a single attack.
Weapon Training: Each time this ability is gained the fighter gains an additional +1 to hit and damage.
Just get rid of weapon groups. Virtually no one is going to a weapon outside of the first weapon group they choose unless it's a shiny new magic weapon that's way way beyond what they were wielding. Even then they might not because of weapon focus and weapon spec.
Actually, one idea I had was to give the fighter something he can use with *all* weapons that relates to the weapon group he chose.
Weapon Training (Ex): At 1st level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. A fighter is proficient with all weapons in the selected weapon group. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Also, upon selecting a weapon group, a fighter gains a specific combat ability and magical effect (if the weapon used is already magical) that he may use with all proficient weapons.
... the rest is the same, except I have it starting at 1st level because "awesome ability needs more facetime".
Example Weapon Groups:
AXES
A fighter may use the Cleave feat on the first attack of a full attack with any melee slashing weapon. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the might cleaving enhancement.
Weaponry
Bardiche, battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, hooked axe, knuckle axe, light pick, mattock, orc double axe, pata, and throwing axe.
BLADES, HEAVY
A fighter may hold and use any melee weapon with two hands to gain the benefits normally given to two-handed weapons (such as 50% extra strength and power attack damage bonus). If the weapon is magical, it deals an extra 1d6 damage in kinetic force (same damage type as the weapon itself) when used two-handed. As weapon damage, it is multiplied on a Vital Strike attack.
Weaponry
Bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, greatsword, great terbutje, katana, khopesh, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword.
BLADES, LIGHT
A fighter may treat any one-handed melee weapon held in the off hand as a light weapon for purposes of two weapon fighting, and treats any weapon wielded in the offhand as a blocking, disarm and distracting weapon. If the main hand weapon is magical, then the off hand weapon is treated as magical and shares the same enhancement bonus.
Weaponry
Bayonet, butterfly sword, dagger, gladius, kama, kerambit, kukri, pata, quadrens, rapier, short sword, sica, sickle, starknife, swordbreaker dagger, sword cane, and wakizashi.
BOWS
A fighter can add Strength to damage with all drawn projectile weapons (bows and crossbows); treat as having the adaptive enhancement. If the weapon is magical, it is treated as having the distance enhancement.
Weaponry
Composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.
...
NATURAL
A fighter may use any melee weapon wielded in hand as if it were a primary natural attack, and up to two melee weapons not held in hand (such as armor spikes) as secondary natural attacks, and may use them as part of a natural attack routine (instead of iterative attacks). If the weapons are magical, they are treated as having the huntsman enhancement.
Weaponry
Unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.
...
THROWN
A fighter may throw any melee weapon as if it were a throwing weapon, with a range increment of 10'. Also, if the weapon (or a normal throwing weapon) is magical, it is treated as having the returning enhancement.
Weaponry
Aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart.
Makes the choices mean a little more universally, and give the Fighter a lot more options with cross purpose. A fighter picking up Thrown so he can throw (and have return) his greatsword is fairly unique.
Basically, you want to pick one for the nice boost in attack/damage, but then you'll want to pick others so it can add more options to all your weapons.
Combine it with swapping out feats daily (so you can weapon spec a different weapon and go for a different combat style) and multiple weapon groups no longer feels so bleagh at higher levels.
Actually, one idea I had was to give the fighter something he can use with *all* weapons that relates to the weapon group he chose.
Weapon groups just strike me as being pointless. Not only that but they narrow the fighters already limited options. Even if you broaden them a little the fighter is still going to only use the first one he picks. They might on the very rarest of occasions use one outside of that when they find a super magic weapon.
All they do is add flavor at the cost of versatility. That's poor design.
Even if you broaden them a little the fighter is still going to only use the first one he picks.
Not sure if you read what I put there, then. Because what I'm saying is that choosing a weapon group gives you something "thematically like the group you chose" that works with "all weapons" (or nearly).
So if you choose Axes and Heavy Blades, you can still just use a greatsword, but still get the benefits of Cleave on a full attack + mighty cleaving enhancement of your choice in Axes. Or use a GreatAxe and still get the extra +1d6 damage from two-handing it that you got from your Heavy Blades choice.
Not sure if you read what I put there, then. Because what I'm saying is that choosing a weapon group gives you something "thematically like the group you chose" that works with "all weapons" (or nearly).
I read what you put there, but it's very confusing. Not sure if it's just because I'm tired or what, but it still reads like you benefit from picking a weapon group and sticking with it. I'm seeing some crossover on the bonus feat thing, but the +1 to hit and damage does not, correct? The bonus to hit and damage is probably the most important thing and that's not what is transferring. Some of the bonuses are really out of proportion compared to others and some are just flat out hard to read.
I kind of get what you're trying to do though. I'm just not a fan of the whole idea.
Ah yes, the +'s are *not* transferring. I see what you mean, though I'm not sure how else to do it short of doing like you said, abandoning weapon groups altogether.
Perhaps making it a single choice that can be changed with some minor training? It still limits it so you can't just go around with half a dozen different weapon types and get massive bonuses to everything (so it's still situational), but if you can change it on a daily or weekly basis it might not be as onerous.
Ah yes, the +'s are *not* transferring. I see what you mean, though I'm not sure how else to do it short of doing like you said, abandoning weapon groups altogether.
Perhaps making it a single choice that can be changed with some minor training? It still limits it so you can't just go around with half a dozen different weapon types and get massive bonuses to everything (so it's still situational), but if you can change it on a daily or weekly basis it might not be as onerous.
Would it truly be so bad for a fighter to be skilled with weapons? Would the games balance be thrown off? Would the other melee classes be shunned for not being effective with so many weapons? Would the wizard who shapes reality at their whim suddenly cower in fear of the fighter who's +4 to hit and damage with a great sword and a battle axe?
There's just no good way to go about it. It's a total flavor issue that hurts actual game play mechanics. It's the Fighter base class. They're not going to suddenly break bad with a little weapon proficiency and versatility.
Plus a half dozen weapons? All magical? So he's just wearing rags? Those weapons are expensive. They're also heavy.
At the levels that you'd have 3 or so weapon groups, it's not inconceivable to have a primary weapon, a ranged weapon, and a couple +1 alternates (like for throwing, or bludgeoning, or reach, or when you are swallowed whole, etc). 2kgp doesn't break the bank at the 100+kgp levels.
You are right, I don't see balance taking any kind of hit with just having it apply to everything all the time. I guess maybe it's just a "this ability feels bland and generic" vs "this ability limits fighters". On paper it looks bland, but in practice each fighter will pick up and use more varied weapons. *shrug*
I dunno... something to mull over.
*Edit*
There is the added bonus of not having to "+3 to this one, and +2 to that one, and +1 to these weapons" kind of nit-picky high-level humdrum.
I'm warming to the idea simply because of that alone. "Fighters should be simple to play" has always been a theme of the class. My bonus feat fix above makes it far more forgiving to try out feats. Having a more general + to apply to all weapons would make choosing/building your fighter far simpler and forgiving too.
|
I think the "intentional trap feat" thing is mostly a historical thing, not something Paizo puts into the game intentionally anymore. But because they haven't thoroughly denounced the practice we keep hearing about it.
In Magic, it makes sense, particularly in booster draft style games. In RPGs, not so much, and they eventually figured this out. Remember that in ye olde days, system mastery wasn't a dirty word (not to everyone), and that well-meaning designers thought this could be a feature. Now it turns out to be an embarassment.
Here's my "list of stuff" that the Fighter class needs to happen (either to itself, or to the game in general) to make it "good:"
•Two High Saves: I vote for Fort and Reflex, because those make the most sense to me for the "Fighter." You'll see a lot of people try and make arguments for Will, but I just don't see it. The same arguments for "high Will for Fighter" would work just as well for any class, and there's no reason to just give everyone high Will saves.
•4+Int Skill Points per Level: This isn't so much a Fighter problem as it is a Pathfinder problem. 2+Int is too low for anyone (yes, even Wizards - yeah, I said it!) and the absolute minimum for any class should be 4+Int. I would honestly support a +2 bump to every class, to be honest.
•A Better Class Skill List: Poor Fighters are seriously lacking on the class skill options. No reason not to throw them some love here.
•Feats Need To Be Better: Here's the rub - Fighters don't need to be better with feats; Feats in general need to be better, period. The TWF chain should be a single feat, not a chain of 3 feats. Weapon Focus/Spec should apply to entire weapon groups, not just one single weapon. Lots of prereqs are dumb and don't make much sense. Etc. If feats get better, then Fighters suddenly get much better.
•The Entire Iterative Attack System Is Bonkers: Again, not Fighter-specific, but very Fighter-relevant. This whole system needs to be scrapped. The penalties get too large (no one, even the Fighter, is gonna hit the CR 20 with a +5 attack bonus - it's dumb), and the fact that you can't move and be threatening is even more of a joke. Instead, why not treat additional iterative attacks like additional natural attacks: The first attack is always at highest bonus, and every other attack is treated like a "secondary" attack and has a -5 penalty. So a level 20 Fighter would be attacking at "+20/+15/+15/+15." Also, do away with "Full Attack vs Attack." Whenever you attack, you can make as many attacks as your BAB allows (plus whatever you pick up from feats, like TWF, etc.). Basically - Everyone has pounce, but you don't have to take the Charge bonuses/penalties. (Note: Some common sense here, please? Obviously, things like AoOs wouldn't let you take a full iterative attack phase. When it's your turn, and you're making your attack(s) for the turn, the above should apply.)
•Fighters need a secondary gimmick: Even if all of the above were to change, the Fighter would still be the guy who does nothing "well" other than, "swing the stick, hit the baddie." Paladins are full-combatants with a myriad of non-combat options. Rangers put Paladins to shame with all the non-fighting stuff they can do. Even Barbarians, with the right Rage Powers, can uniquely contribute to party success in ways that isn't just, "smash the baddie on the head." It doesn't matter what it is, but the Fighter class needs some mechanics added into the leveling process that give it something to do other than just fight.
That about sums it up for me. I'd play that Fighter. :)