Coins as tangible lootable objects is expected to have bad results. It will have the effect of punishing people who don't bypass its effects while inconveniencing everyone else.
Bypassing the effects results in player interaction which is a good thing.
The occasions when you have to move money around which while rare will occur and on those occasions you might have a caravan carrying a couple of hundred thousand coin attracting bandits to group together and large contingents of guards to be hired. This is content with a capital C.
When sacking a settlement you will be able to loot the storage of the coin stored there incentivising settlement warfare to be used against the high profile targets whereas currently the big rich settlements are unlikely to be targetted often because while they are excessively strong because of the military might their wealth can finance the payoff for actually sacking one is pretty minor because all that wealth is stuck in virtual wallets. This to my mind is a good thing giving people a reason to focus on strong settlements for attack rather than just picking off the weakest.
There are a lot of upsides to tangible coinage as well as the downsides
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Coins as tangible lootable objects is expected to have bad results. It will have the effect of punishing people who don't bypass its effects while inconveniencing everyone else.Bypassing the effects results in player interaction which is a good thing.
The occasions when you have to move money around which while rare will occur and on those occasions you might have a caravan carrying a couple of hundred thousand coin attracting bandits to group together and large contingents of guards to be hired. This is content with a capital C.
When sacking a settlement you will be able to loot the storage of the coin stored there incentivising settlement warfare to be used against the high profile targets whereas currently the big rich settlements are unlikely to be targetted often because while they are excessively strong because of the military might their wealth can finance the payoff for actually sacking one is pretty minor because all that wealth is stuck in virtual wallets. This to my mind is a good thing giving people a reason to focus on strong settlements for attack rather than just picking off the weakest.
There are a lot of upsides to tangible coinage as well as the downsides
That's all "Would X be awesome means nobody does X". Nobody will ever move large amounts of coin around- if large amounts of coin ever need to be moved, lots of small shipments would be made. Settlement banks will not have more than a convenient amount of coin if it can be stolen in any way.
In any case, the wealth is not measured in Coin, wealth is measured in things with intrinsic value. The only value of coin is that it is accepted (by players!) as a medium of exchange and that it is required in order to satisfy coin drains. I don't foresee a smart settlement accumulating more than a convenient amount of coin anyway, unless there is no longer anything to buy with it.
Goblin Squad Member
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Brainstorming challenge on threading that would ease the "in-game downsides"?
For eg crafting Threading depending on item and keyword to make it "thread-ready" and/or renewal per random phases of the moon according to some sort of decay on efficacy?
I can't get past those ideas and what sort of cascade (disaster!) they'd lead to.
What if items have a maximum number of times they can be repaired. If I have cheaper tier 2 armour that can be only repaired 6 times, compared to more expensive tier 3 armour that can be repaired four times. I would only ever wear my tier 3 armour in the most important situations. So if I'm wearing it and get killed that's a major blow, as each death eats into the total life of my armour. Also skilled armourers who can make tier 3 armour which can be repaired more often would be in high demand.
The above would result in items being turned over a lot faster, and make people accept that using cheaper tier 2 armour is fine for all but the most dire situations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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nothing different between NPC banks and Alt banks. This is why we have the PC bank, which would be used more than the alt bank because PC bank can be used everywhere, alt bank only in specific points.
I again suggest coin is a % loss not the full value. I understand people will get mad at losing coin... but they are going to lose and be mad anyway. It doesn't matter if it was a +5 sword or 5000gp or what, if it is something that player put effort into then got killed and looted they will be just as mad either way.
I see the logic, but I don't. People are going to lose and rage and nothing you can do will change that. making coin lootable (and able to be destroyed apparently) can solve a monopoly/economy problem. PC banks with bank note transfers solves the coin problem. These both promote extremely higher PC interaction, and both can be built off of existing (or planned to exist) features. Both have their inherent risk of being abused, but that is true with all the systems. This way is less at risk of multiple offendors because any frauders will quickly be found out by PCs (people like knowing where there money is and what happened to it) and if it turns out this is a chronic problem people just won't fix then it is a simple enough matter for GW to be like "nope, NPC bank now. We gave you a chance, but you f'd it up" and just remove the system. (obviously not THAT simple, but in the grand scheme I don't see why it would be a ridiculous amount).
That's all "Would X be awesome means nobody does X". Nobody will ever move large amounts of coin around- if large amounts of coin ever need to be moved, lots of small shipments would be made. Settlement banks will not have more than a convenient amount of coin if it can be stolen in any way.
In any case, the wealth is not measured in Coin, wealth is measured in things with intrinsic value. The only value of coin is that it is accepted (by players!) as a medium of exchange and that it is required in order to satisfy coin drains. I don't foresee a smart settlement accumulating more than a convenient amount of coin anyway, unless there is no longer anything to buy with it.
Of course large money shipments will occur. The float needed to cover withdrawals is likely to be large. It is a lot more efficient and safer to move 1 million coins using 50 guards than have 200 people sprint from settlement to settlement with 5000 gold each.
As to settlement banks if the money is not stored there where do you think it is going to be stored? You can't carry it around without it being looted. You can't store it conveniently in the npc towns because then you will have to run a lot of money transfer operations.
While true that coin is merely a medium of exchange it is absolutely true that settlements will need large reserves of it. They need it to purchase goods and services external to their settlement. There is no point having a million daggers in your settlement stores because when you try hiring that mercenary group and offer them 100000 daggers as payment they are going to turn you down flat. Coin is power in a way that material goods aren't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it hasn't been asked yet (going out on a limb here to cast summon stephen 1) but do NPCs have limited money?
I actually hope not. Nothing would be more frustrating for PvE players than not being able to cash out their gains. Unless of course, NPCs do not buy anything at all and all coin is earned through monster drops and quests (again unlimited money). This would be a game killer, I feel.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That's all "Would X be awesome means nobody does X". Nobody will ever move large amounts of coin around- if large amounts of coin ever need to be moved, lots of small shipments would be made. Settlement banks will not have more than a convenient amount of coin if it can be stolen in any way.
In any case, the wealth is not measured in Coin, wealth is measured in things with intrinsic value. The only value of coin is that it is accepted (by players!) as a medium of exchange and that it is required in order to satisfy coin drains. I don't foresee a smart settlement accumulating more than a convenient amount of coin anyway, unless there is no longer anything to buy with it.
Of course large money shipments will occur. The float needed to cover withdrawals is likely to be large. It is a lot more efficient and safer to move 1 million coins using 50 guards than have 200 people sprint from settlement to settlement with 5000 gold each.
As to settlement banks if the money is not stored there where do you think it is going to be stored? You can't carry it around without it being looted. You can't store it conveniently in the npc towns because then you will have to run a lot of money transfer operations.
While true that coin is merely a medium of exchange it is absolutely true that settlements will need large reserves of it. They need it to purchase goods and services external to their settlement. There is no point having a million daggers in your settlement stores because when you try hiring that mercenary group and offer them 100000 daggers as payment they are going to turn you down flat. Coin is power in a way that material goods aren't.
Answering your questions: If it is safer to move the money as one shipment, nobody will interdict it. (or, if there's a chance that anybody would interdict a single shipment, it is safer to have more, smaller shipments) There is a point of diminishing returns on this.
I'd keep the coin on alts that were logged out whenever they weren't in a transaction. Unless you are able to kill any character anywhere, regardless of whether they are even logged in or not, they will never be vulnerable.
And the coin for large transactions will either be a balance transfer, or be delivered at an NPC settlement. (I don't foresee a settlement accumulating more daggers than they have use for, either, but they might anticipate a very large need.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is even some merit to different currencies minted by different settlements giving rise to exchange rates and currency speculation.
We did beat the "Kingdom Coinage" thing up a bit several months ago at this link Allow Kingdoms to Mint Their Own Currency.
Personally I like the complexities of each Kingdom being allowed to mine ore, smelt it, and mint their own coinage, but there are some obvious problems and the idea was not universally appreciated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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wouldn't it be cool to... yeah
@Lifedragn
The reason I asked is because if NPCs have unlimited money, then NPC banks have unlimited funds, then money does not need to be physically transferred. I feel like it should be, somehow. This does have problems though, should we make NPCs have limited funds, as you have pointed out.
That said, I don't see NPCs buying much of the goods players get. The idea is to have everything PC driven, and there won't be many "quests" except situational ones (as far as I know) so NPCs not having unlimited funds isn't that big of a problem to me. in addition, monsters shouldn't drop finished goods for the most part, other than their gear or specialty items, which will be sold to crafters or other players (make it so low-level mobs don't drop their low-level gear would be a good solution and is used in many games) not to NPCs.
To be honest, I don't think the funding of NPCs will matter much, unless they are going to be aggressively engaging PCs (e.g. Hellknights recruit a ton of members, buy up a whole bunch of top-tier gear for them, and invade a new settlement).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do we assume banks are automatically linked or affiliated? The bank in Thornkeep is under no obligation to respect how much coin you may have in the bank at Fort Inevitable. If you need your money, you need to go where it is kept. If you want more convenience, go take the risk with a player run organization. NPC banks should be for safety, but don't need to be convenient. You need to make a meaningful decision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lifedragn
because that was the specific issue I was discussing. Linked banks with tangible money and a lack of infinite coin. This requires coin transportation, directly influencing SADs. We don't SADs to be coin-heavy, so these would be "bank notes" instead of straight coin, and the "notes" would need a fence of some sort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do it all the time :D esp. back in ole runescape where I would make a mil in gold and then just aimlessly wander the pvp wildy in bronze armor and a staff. good times. good times.
Yours sounds like it was on purpose, while I would never risk The Precious that way. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is even some merit to different currencies minted by different settlements giving rise to exchange rates and currency speculation.We did beat the "Kingdom Coinage" thing up a bit several months ago at this link Allow Kingdoms to Mint Their Own Currency.
Personally I like the complexities of each Kingdom being allowed to mine ore, smelt it, and mint their own coinage, but there are some obvious problems and the idea was not universally appreciated.
I like the idea, but skimming over that thread, seeing Ryan's response, is the main problem that middle-men / money-exchangers is a sort of specialist role that gets financially very complex that then degrades the experience of normal players not as adept at understanding such financial information? As well as such individuals being able to implement very shady methods such as currency speculation to bring down a Nation? Also if GW is the central bank, they in effect are the only ones "printing money out of thin air" and hence able to control the money supply?
Making a lot of broad guesses on my shaking knowledge of such matters, but as said I really like the idea of different currencies making the world seem more exotic and atmospheric, but even if GW were more amenable to implementing it there would be a need for a lot of rules on how money is handled (eg interest rates and exchange rates and all that craziness!)?! As can be gleaned there's depth and then there's a black hole of debt/deflation/mudflation/inflation etc. lol.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@AvenaOats
Actually, yes. This is a situation of "wouldn't it be cool if" that frankly would make the few people who enjoy and do play that role become OP. I'd like to put forward any time in history where a new currency was introduced by a foreign agent as an example.
It just is not worth the effort (at this point) for GW especially since we honestly don't know what the in-game economy is going to look like. sure, there are serious parallels with EVE, but to assume it is going to be relatively similar is something I'll disagree with. A fantasy mmorpg where you control a single character (I understand alts are always going to be a thing, but to my knowledge you can directly control more than one vessel in EVE without use of an alt which is what I am meaning) is different than a space mmo where you control a captain/admiral/whatever. There is more, but I won't bring it up unless needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the idea was not universally appreciated.
In this modal day and age, where 'fact finding' means deciding on the outcome that seems most convenient and accepting as gospel truth whatever might support that and completely tossing out anything that disagrees, is there a any 'universally appreciated' idea?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the idea was not universally appreciated.In this modal day and age, where 'fact finding' means deciding on the outcome that seems most convenient and accepting as gospel truth whatever might support that and completely tossing out anything that disagrees, is there a any 'universally appreciated' idea?
Heh. Probably not. I DO really like the idea of being able to tell when a Kingdom has begun to devalue its currency (through testing the coins' purity, which must be another skill set), and I very much like the idea of the Kingdoms' governments mining, smelting, minting and storing precious metals. But this would be a complex issue to code and the value to the general population may be limited. It would affect everyone, but most would be subject to the situation with little or no skills to counter it. One f those "cool things" that make a few very excited while pissing off many thousands more. Still, I'll vote for it if the opportunity ever comes up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DO advocate for this. It is not MVP; it will not happen in EE; it will not be in start of OE; most OE players will not even understand what you are asking for. Well into OE, after witch and summoner and alchemist and boats and … then it may be of interest of some players. And it will be added.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Heh. Probably not. I DO really like the idea of being able to tell when a Kingdom has begun to devalue its currency (through testing the coins' purity, which must be another skill set), and I very much like the idea of the Kingdoms' governments mining, smelting, minting and storing precious metals. But this would be a complex issue to code and the value to the general population may be limited. It would affect everyone, but most would be subject to the situation with little or no skills to counter it. One f those "cool things" that make a few very excited while pissing off many thousands more. Still, I'll vote for it if the opportunity ever comes up....the idea was not universally appreciated.In this modal day and age, where 'fact finding' means deciding on the outcome that seems most convenient and accepting as gospel truth whatever might support that and completely tossing out anything that disagrees, is there a any 'universally appreciated' idea?
My favorite part of this post is the Goblin Squad tag after your name Hardin. :)
