Goblin Squad Member
|
So how about a discussion about SAD mechanics...when considered from the perspective of a skill to be used anytime, by anyone.
I think we should take advantage when the devs explicitly ask us to discuss something.
Fair point.
As far as it being used by anyone:
- I think they have said that it would be a trained skill. Are you suggesting it should be available to anyone, without training, but perhaps with benefits from increased training? When a party of trained and untrained robbers does a SAD action, would their average, total, or highest skill count? A higher skill might make a great mix of goods visible for the demand; a lower skill might have a smaller random selection of goods exposed.
- Should there be a counter-SAD skill, perhaps to conceal more items?
As far as it being used at anytime: I think I said up-thread that I didn't think SAD should be usable on people that see the robber as hostile. A robber shouldn't be able to turn a feud rival's pursuit into a surprise SAD action. A flagged criminal shouldn't be able to turn on the local Enforcers and make a SAD demand.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ BrotherZael, While I enjoy a good alignment discussion...no, I think a discussion on SAD mechanics would provide the most insight to relevant thought.
As far as it being used by anyone:
- I think they have said that it would be a trained skill. Are you suggesting it should be available to anyone, without training, but perhaps with benefits from increased training? When a party of trained and untrained robbers does a SAD action, would their average, total, or highest skill count? A higher skill might make a great mix of goods visible for the demand; a lower skill might have a smaller random selection of goods exposed.
No, no...sorry. I meant anyone who could train it. Agreed with you questions. The same points are on my mind. Also, I assume at least the bandit doing the SAD has to have the skill, do any others? And, when she SADs someone, is it a personal threat or threat to that individuals entire party? Who has the right to negotiate? Or, will it be party leader to party leader...and individuals will be considered parties.
- Should there be a counter-SAD skill, perhaps to conceal more items?
I am still not convinced about whether it makes sense to SAD for goods or gold, although, we already pointed out the issues with gold. People will just stash gold with alts. Also, we can assume that with this new mechanic it is not limited to caravans. So, the escrow idea I previously pitched is nonsense. The bandit-side Rep gamble still works though...and if people are always a viable target, there is less risk of having people stash gold while making caravan runs. On the other hand, maybe this will push people to always use a bank alt.
So, the problems with goods; direct good-to-gold translation is imo a bad idea. It will hinder the market by giving people a free way to convert goods...not good design. I suppose SAD could occur just like the looting system, but without the DP. You agree to a SAD, the bandit gets to loot you (seeing the randomized loot) just as if she was searching your corpus...anything they do not take you get to keep. My concern with this is that it almost entirely removes the idea of bandits capturing wagons and caravans which to me seemed the most fun part.
As far as it being used at anytime: I think I said up-thread that I didn't think SAD should be usable on people that see the robber as hostile. A robber shouldn't be able to turn a feud rival's pursuit into a surprise SAD action. A flagged criminal shouldn't be able to turn on the local Enforcers and make a SAD demand.
Well, if the bandit is already flagged hostile, they can try to SAD, but you already get to attack them penalty free. Yeah, in all the cases you mentioned, the SAD would simply be ignored.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Coin I still say should not be gainable from the SAD for the simple reason that catching up with the bandits and killing them does not get you a portion of the goods they looted back.
Making sad reward cargo only also has the effect of giving the bandits the problem of shifting their looted material which makes them vulnerable.
Loot 500 gold it is easy to scatter and wait out the timer one or two may be caught but most will escape.
Loot a wagon full of longswords however and now the bandits have to move it somewhere and become targets not only for law enforcers but other bandits.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suppose SAD could occur just like the looting system, but without the DP. You agree to a SAD, the bandit gets to loot you (seeing the randomized loot) just as if she was searching your corpus...anything they do not take you get to keep. My concern with this is that it almost entirely removes the idea of bandits capturing wagons and caravans which to me seemed the most fun part.
In any event, I think we won't have the wagons in EE. Whatever SAD mechanism would have to expand to fit the wagons, or change at that time.
In the Incapacitate, Stabilize, etc thread, someone raised the idea of having variable amounts of loot shown on a incapacitated character. I was wondering if that would be translatable for SAD. Having a high amount of SAD could allow the Robber to see a greater fraction of the Traveler party's lootable items. So a group of Robbers with near maximum SAD related skills might show the full (random) 75% and they get to pick what to demand. Having near minimum skills might only show 25% of the possible goods, again randomly selected.
I definitely see the SAD as a Party vs. Party action. The head Robber's UI should show available goods from the Traveler's entire party. It should also show the available carry capacity for the Robber's entire party (that *shouldn't* be visible to the Traveler's negotiator). When goods are taken would be automatically distributed amongst the Robbers, I'd think.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a group of Robbers with near maximum SAD related skills might show the full (random) 75% and they get to pick what to demand. Having near minimum skills might only show 25% of the possible goods, again randomly selected.
Or, when the SAD is accepted, they simply get a loot window open with a random selection of 75%-25% of the unthreaded items for all members involved.
I definitely see the SAD as a Party vs. Party action. The head Robber's UI should show available goods from the Traveler's entire party. It should also show the available carry capacity for the Robber's entire party (that *shouldn't* be visible to the Traveler's negotiator). When goods are taken would be automatically distributed amongst the Robbers, I'd think.
Now that was a solid contribution...something mechanical for the devs to consider...Thank you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To be honest, I don't see why a SAD has to be for goods OR coin. Why not both?
As I stated in my earlier statement there could be money-caravans that carry the gold on them. Maybe what we could do is make individual gold intangible but company level dealings (that is, caravans) have tangible wealth, be it coin, stock, or universal item (The "super dagger" or more likely a nonthreadable bank note for X amount open to all to claim). You make the front journey with the goods on the caravan the back journey with the payment. Not a full solution, but definitely helpful.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Coin I still say should not be gainable from the SAD for the simple reason that catching up with the bandits and killing them does not get you a portion of the goods they looted back.
Making sad reward cargo only also has the effect of giving the bandits the problem of shifting their looted material which makes them vulnerable.
Loot 500 gold it is easy to scatter and wait out the timer one or two may be caught but most will escape.
Loot a wagon full of longswords however and now the bandits have to move it somewhere and become targets not only for law enforcers but other bandits.
Hideouts?
But, I don't see why bandits could not steal a portion or all of both coin and cargo. Not just from a SAD, but from an ambush and killing as well.
I could see a traveler having a cargo worth 500 gp also having 500 gp in coin. If the bandit SADs for 20%, he can take that percentage of cargo and coin.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Coin I still say should not be gainable from the SAD for the simple reason that catching up with the bandits and killing them does not get you a portion of the goods they looted back.
Making sad reward cargo only also has the effect of giving the bandits the problem of shifting their looted material which makes them vulnerable.
Loot 500 gold it is easy to scatter and wait out the timer one or two may be caught but most will escape.
Loot a wagon full of longswords however and now the bandits have to move it somewhere and become targets not only for law enforcers but other bandits.
Hideouts?
But, I don't see why bandits could not steal a portion or all of both coin and cargo. Not just from a SAD, but from an ambush and killing as well.
I could see a traveler having a cargo worth 500 gp also having 500 gp in coin. If the bandit SADs for 20%, he can take that percentage of cargo and coin.
You still have to get the goods to the hideouts and at some point move the goods from the hideout to a market.
In addition goods stored in the hideout can be recovered probably by destroying the hideout.
No coin is currently planned to be carried so there is no coin to loot and the objection remains the same anything you steal should be recoverable (subject to the destruction on death penalty)
If you want to argue that coin should be a actual item that is carried I am then fine with it being on the table for both looting and sadding but if it remains an abstract value in the wallet then no. Bandits like everyone else should have to protect what they steal. Being able to steal coin directly counters that.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Coin I still say should not be gainable from the SAD for the simple reason that catching up with the bandits and killing them does not get you a portion of the goods they looted back.
Making sad reward cargo only also has the effect of giving the bandits the problem of shifting their looted material which makes them vulnerable.
Loot 500 gold it is easy to scatter and wait out the timer one or two may be caught but most will escape.
Loot a wagon full of longswords however and now the bandits have to move it somewhere and become targets not only for law enforcers but other bandits.
Why would the bandits prefer to have the stuff to the coin? What would prevent the merchants from immediately buying back their gear for an amount of coin greater than what the bandits could quickly get for it, but less than what it was worth to the merchants (if there isn't any room between those two values, then something strange is happening)?
If the SAD can effectively be for coin, why not allow it to always be for coin?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I wouldn't mind having to rob the cargo, and even carts, then have to move them to our gp hideout or to some other "safe house" to later transport it to a fence (if items are tagged stolen).
Does that mean we are at risk from other bandits or the original owners, getting the cargo away from us? Yes, absolutely. "You Have What You Hold" is not just something we would say to justify our theft. It is our responsibility to hold onto our own stuff as well.
The more layers there are to banditry, the more effort and rewards there are involved with the role.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Coin I still say should not be gainable from the SAD for the simple reason that catching up with the bandits and killing them does not get you a portion of the goods they looted back.
Making sad reward cargo only also has the effect of giving the bandits the problem of shifting their looted material which makes them vulnerable.
Loot 500 gold it is easy to scatter and wait out the timer one or two may be caught but most will escape.
Loot a wagon full of longswords however and now the bandits have to move it somewhere and become targets not only for law enforcers but other bandits.
Why would the bandits prefer to have the stuff to the coin? What would prevent the merchants from immediately buying back their gear for an amount of coin greater than what the bandits could quickly get for it, but less than what it was worth to the merchants (if there isn't any room between those two values, then something strange is happening)?
If the SAD can effectively be for coin, why not allow it to always be for coin?
Because if you allow the sad to be for coin it will always be for coin because that is in the bandits best interest.
If a merchant feels it is profitable to make an offer to buy back goods that is fine many however will choose not to. The only way to give people who would choose not to a choice therefore is to prevent a sad demanding coin.
In short disallowing coin gives the merchant more choices in the transaction
on the one hand (allowing coin) you will have the choice of pay coin or die
on the other hand (disallowing coin) you will have the choice of give up goods or die. If however you give up goods you then have the further option of offer to buy back goods for a sum you think reasonable or send hunters after the bandits who may be able to recover some of your goods. Neither of these two options are available if you have coin demands
"Bluddwolf",
Get back in your clone pod. We are not ready yet to strike.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
here is what I would like to see.
SAD should require skill training in order to use it. It basically shouldnt have prereqs to get it. however it should require more investment that just training in 1 skill. It should be a skill tree.
So SAD 1 would require you to have a criminal flag for 30 minutes at the current game session. and you can SAD X loot. SAD 2 you have to be flagged as criminal for 25 minutes and you get X+3 loot....etc.
Also the ability to have a hideout and how good it is should be dependent on the company leader's SAD. So if you dont have high SAD skills you dont get a really nice hideout. In addition anyone who uses that hide out must be part of the same company.
When SADing you you ask for gold up to what your skill is and how much the merchant has. So if the merchant has 300 gold you and your skill caps at 200 you can only SAD for 200, on the other hand if your skill is 300 and the merchant only has 200 you can only SAD for 200.
For items it should be partly random. So you get a random collection of items from the victim, however higher level of SAD lets you pick loot. So SAD level 4 would let you randomly get up to 50% of the goods, 4 of which you would hand select. So the bandit can have some choice.
The reason for requiring a bandit to be flagged before they can use SAD is so that they are put at risk. As it stands a merchant literally cannot do anything except run while a bandit can walk right up and SAD you.
This puts much less danger on the bandits. Bandits should be put at just as much risk as merchants. If a merchant sees a bandit coming they should be able to send guards out to take care of the bandits. Settlements and companies should be able to patrol areas to fight bandits and keep those areas free of them. Basically the should be able to be proactive about bandit problems.
I do not want to see a situation where bandits are all on alts, spot a merchant, then log on the bandit 3 seconds before the merchant arrives near them, then logs back off.
Because thats how i would bandit if there was not that restriction.
1) SAD requires a large amount of skill investment
2) hideouts require SAD investment to make full use of them
3) All members of a hideout must be in the same company
4) Bandits must have the criminal flag for XX time before they can SAD
5) Bandits keep the criminal flag based on how much loot they steal
6) The flag is based on IN game time
The goal is to make being a bandit require investment and put the bandit at at least the same amount of risk merchants will be at. meaning if you want to be a bandit you have to be at risk of getting cleared out by the law at any time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
While I generally have a gut feel that the bandit's criminal flag should remain up for some amount of in-game time, I'm not sure if it holds up in comparison to other PvP situations.
Looking at a feud: when company A feuds company B, company B characters can log out to avoid the conflict, or at least that's how I understand it. Yeah, they aren't defending their interests and their buddies, but they have that option. I assume they can't log out while in combat or immediately after breaking contact with enemies, but they aren't prevented from logging out due to the feud, I think. Is the bandit/merchant conflict that different from a feud?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't mind having to rob the cargo, and even carts, then have to move them to our gp hideout or to some other "safe house" to later transport it to a fence (if items are tagged stolen).
Does that mean we are at risk from other bandits or the original owners, getting the cargo away from us? Yes, absolutely. "You Have What You Hold" is not just something we would say to justify our theft. It is our responsibility to hold onto our own stuff as well.
The more layers there are to banditry, the more effort and rewards there are involved with the role.
I can see a Company of Bandits that solely target other Bandits as a living.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can see a Company of Bandits that solely target other Bandits as a living.I wouldn't mind having to rob the cargo, and even carts, then have to move them to our gp hideout or to some other "safe house" to later transport it to a fence (if items are tagged stolen).
Does that mean we are at risk from other bandits or the original owners, getting the cargo away from us? Yes, absolutely. "You Have What You Hold" is not just something we would say to justify our theft. It is our responsibility to hold onto our own stuff as well.
The more layers there are to banditry, the more effort and rewards there are involved with the role.
Highly unlikely and perhaps a bit of wishful thinking.
Bandits vs. Bandits = PvP Centric vs PvP Centric
The risk vs, reward will be very close to even most of the time. That is not optimal banditry.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Leperkaun
Problem with that is there are no criminal flags in the wild uncontrolled hexes. Many, including ourselves, will be preying on the caravans moving rarer resources from those uncontrolled hexes, on their way to the settlement hexes. Criminal Flags won't apply, so they can't be required before a SAD and won't be suffered after.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can see a Company of Bandits that solely target other Bandits as a living.Highly unlikely and perhaps a bit of wishful thinking.
Bandits vs. Bandits = PvP Centric vs PvP Centric
The risk vs, reward will be very close to even most of the time. That is not optimal banditry.
That is like saying sharks do not bother eating other sharks because they all have sharp teeth.
There are sharks...and there are bigger sharks; I think the big ones could not care less what kind of teeth their last dinner had.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I like the point steelwing brought up earlier about merchants and not being able to make further transactions. I'm suitably impressed by that, and at first I didn't have an answer then Leperkhaun came along.
I agree with his limitations of money. Nobody is going to carry around a gazillion coins with them (whether they are or not) so you shouldn't be able to ask for it.
A SAD should focus on a small pittance of coin (determined as Leperkhaun said by skill level and the Victim's amount) and then get a portion of the loot at normal levels, whatever that may be. This allows some form of currency flow (and gives the bandits a SMALL amount of quick cash, enough to buy a few basic items that are used often) but still leaves the focus on the loot gained. There was a pretty good game that had this but I forgot what it was... maybe pandora saga (Varik Confederation, anyone?)
Maybe something like x% of wealth from items looted is the coin cap, and it increases with SAD level, so at beginning it is like 5% then 7% then 10% and so on. That or a flat cap per skill level or something.
(As an aside this also works with the wells fargo method I brought up in regards to PC banking, as those "bank notes" count as loot, not coin, and require further transactions to gain the coin/items it represents rather than becoming an instant money)
As for the criminal flag, I think it is wrong to have it before the SAD. For instance, in reality you are never sure if those guys lounging beside the road with all the heavy gear are bandits or not. It can be likely, sure, and you can send your guards out to move them aside, but it is not for sure until they do something. I think the flag should come AFTER they issue the SAD/launch the ambush, and that as long as the flag remains and they are open for pvp their character persists (again this allows for the player to log off if they need to go, but their character can still be killed if found during this time.) This method of persistence can work in all areas, faction v faction, PoI raid, minor resource skirmish, etc. where if you have a pvp flag your character persists (unless you reach a tavern or similar "safe-zone" type area that you are not hostile with).
dig?
problems?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can see a Company of Bandits that solely target other Bandits as a living.Highly unlikely and perhaps a bit of wishful thinking.
Bandits vs. Bandits = PvP Centric vs PvP Centric
The risk vs, reward will be very close to even most of the time. That is not optimal banditry.
That is like saying sharks do not bother eating other sharks because they all have sharp teeth.
There are sharks...and there are bigger sharks; I think the big ones could not care less what kind of teeth their last dinner had.
But, full grown sharks don't prey on other full grown sharks. Even Great White sharks don't prey on Blue Sharks, even though Great Whites are 10 - 20 times larger. Wrong analogy I think.
Pirates usually did not prey upon Pirates, and they certainly did not look to engage Naval Frigates. Some may call it cowardice, but it is more to do with greed and expediency.
A pirate or bandit would take less risk for moderate reward, over moderate risk for higher reward, all day long. The theory being, the less risk will lead to more frequent activity and the reward will add up to the same as taking greater risk for greater reward.
Even in PVE content, this has held true. In EVE, if you are a mission runner, you can run a level 3 mission twice as fast as a level 4 mission, and at no risk. You will earn about 70% of the reward of a level 4 mission, in a level 3. 3 x 2 = 140% of the return compared to 4 x 1 = 100%.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
While I generally have a gut feel that the bandit's criminal flag should remain up for some amount of in-game time, I'm not sure if it holds up in comparison to other PvP situations.
Perhaps the best solution to this is to allow Merchants to offer Bounties on Bandits that SAD them, even if the Merchant accepts. The Bandit would probably not treat that particular Merchant as well in the future, and the Bounty would subject the Bandit to PvP for a more significant amount of time.
This would remove any concerns I have about making the Bandit flag up before the SAD or stay flagged afterwards.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Bandits do not prey on bandits,
It is privateers that ignore this and pointedly target the higher risk. but they are looking for more reward than just "loot" and usually serve a politic/social regime/ideal and so defeating the risk is in some cases the entire point.
I believe privateers (and bounty hunters) will be a big thing stacked against people like UNC, and that is good. But as Bludd said, bandits won't go after bandits usually.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... there are no criminal flags in the wild uncontrolled hexes.There will still be flags at work in the wild uncontrolled hexes that have the same or nearly the same effect. They might even be called "Criminal".
I'd expect that the Criminal flag would certainly be adaptable for this. If a character commits a normal crime in a settlement controlled hex, he gets the flag. If he slips over the border into a wild uncontrolled hex, I'd expect that the flag remains on him until the timer expires, to allow hot pursuit from the settlement. The Criminal flag mostly is a timed PvP flag - so the character appears hostile to all for some time after her crime.
(edit) I guess a Criminal flag could also be area-triggered, like the flag we get during a raid on an Outpost. Those flags are lifted after exiting some zone. I'd think they would be adaptable for Wardens/Enforcers to warn/drive people out of areas.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bandits do not prey on bandits,
It is privateers that ignore this and pointedly target the higher risk. but they are looking for more reward than just "loot" and usually serve a politic/social regime/ideal and so defeating the risk is in some cases the entire point.
I believe privateers (and bounty hunters) will be a big thing stacked against people like UNC, and that is good. But as Bludd said, bandits won't go after bandits usually.
Privateers aren't (weren't) counter-pirates. They were pirates, plundering merchant ships and whatnot. What separated a privateer from a pirate was that the privateer had official permission from a state to plunder.
If the UNC were still in alliance with PAX, they'd be land privateers or something like that :D
Not that it matters much for the overall discussion but I wanted to point this out.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Wurner
Yes, thank you. It depends on who and when, of course, if we are going to determine what privateers where like, they were very different in terms of scope and ideals with some doing it just to pirate "officially" and others doing it because they were pirates but they actually believed in the ideals of the nation (or more likely didn't want the other nation imposing their ideals). Actually this brings up a good topic of will Letters-of-Marque be in-game or is it just going to be bounty contracts?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Leperkaun
Problem with that is there are no criminal flags in the wild uncontrolled hexes. Many, including ourselves, will be preying on the caravans moving rarer resources from those uncontrolled hexes, on their way to the settlement hexes. Criminal Flags won't apply, so they can't be required before a SAD and won't be suffered after.
Where are you getting this information?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Although not a "flag" the Hostile state will still occur in the wilderness areas. However, unlike the Criminal Flag (which is universal)the Hostility state only applies to those engaged in a hostile act and their immediate grouping, or company.
If in the wilds I attack Nihimon (no offense), Nihimon will see me as "Hostile". Anyone in Nihimon's present group will also see me as "Hostile", and anyone in T7V will see me as "Hostile" for the duration of that Hostile State.
Other companies or allies, even if they share T7V's settlement, will not see my action as "Hostile" because their agency ends at the borders of their settlement.
Hot pursuit I would imagine will and should apply. Skipping back and forth across the border should not break the hostile or criminal status. Only time or perhaps death ends that status.
This is my understanding of the current system, and if it is not this way, I would argue for it to be this way.
Goblin Works needs to consider "agency", and I believe they have been. Some of that agency (crimes against the settlement laws and its people) are lost in the wilds, which makes them more dangerous.
I know this may bother some to hear it, but their system seems to be modeled after EVE's Security Status Zones.
High Sec
Variable Sec (settlement choice)
Low Sec
And perhaps there will be a Null Sec equivalent in PFO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Although not a "flag" the Hostile state will still occur in the wilderness areas. However, unlike the Criminal Flag (which is universal)the Hostility state only applies to those engaged in a hostile act and their immediate grouping, or company.
If in the wilds I attack Nihimon (no offense), Nihimon will see me as "Hostile". Anyone in Nihimon's present group will also see me as "Hostile", and anyone in T7V will see me as "Hostile" for the duration of that Hostile State.
Other companies or allies, even if they share T7V's settlement, will not see my action as "Hostile" because their agency ends at the borders of their settlement.
Hot pursuit I would imagine will and should apply. Skipping back and forth across the border should not break the hostile or criminal status. Only time or perhaps death ends that status.
This is my understanding of the current system, and if it is not this way, I would argue for it to be this way.
Goblin Works needs to consider "agency", and I believe they have been. Some of that agency (crimes against the settlement laws and its people) are lost in the wilds, which makes them more dangerous.
I know this may bother some to hear it, but their system seems to be modeled after EVE's Security Status Zones.
High Sec
Variable Sec (settlement choice)
Low SecAnd perhaps there will be a Null Sec equivalent in PFO.
So you're telling me if Nihimon and I are hunting near each other, but not grouped (and we do not share the same company or settlement) that you will only be hostile to him if you SAD him and/or attack him and, as a witness, I wouldn't be able to assist him in defeating you without getting a reputation hit and flagged as a criminal myself?
I find this highly unlikely.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Highly unlikely.
I just went back through my emails because it was bugging me all day. I'd misremembered how it works: there's still an Attacker flag for attacks against non-hostile targets that temporarily makes you hostile to everyone. You just don't get it while your target is hostile, and the nuanced hostility means we no longer needed the involved flag.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
here is what I would like to see.
SAD should require skill training in order to use it. It basically shouldnt have prereqs to get it. however it should require more investment that just training in 1 skill. It should be a skill tree.
So SAD 1 would require you to have a criminal flag for 30 minutes at the current game session. and you can SAD X loot. SAD 2 you have to be flagged as criminal for 25 minutes and you get X+3 loot....etc.
Also the ability to have a hideout and how good it is should be dependent on the company leader's SAD. So if you dont have high SAD skills you dont get a really nice hideout. In addition anyone who uses that hide out must be part of the same company.
When SADing you you ask for gold up to what your skill is and how much the merchant has. So if the merchant has 300 gold you and your skill caps at 200 you can only SAD for 200, on the other hand if your skill is 300 and the merchant only has 200 you can only SAD for 200.
For items it should be partly random. So you get a random collection of items from the victim, however higher level of SAD lets you pick loot. So SAD level 4 would let you randomly get up to 50% of the goods, 4 of which you would hand select. So the bandit can have some choice.
The reason for requiring a bandit to be flagged before they can use SAD is so that they are put at risk. As it stands a merchant literally cannot do anything except run while a bandit can walk right up and SAD you.
This puts much less danger on the bandits. Bandits should be put at just as much risk as merchants. If a merchant sees a bandit coming they should be able to send guards out to take care of the bandits. Settlements and companies should be able to patrol areas to fight bandits and keep those areas free of them. Basically the should be able to be proactive about bandit problems.
I do not want to see a situation where bandits are all on alts, spot a merchant, then log on the bandit 3 seconds before the merchant arrives near them, then logs back...
I really like this. It is sort of a combination of the snooping and stealing skills in Ultima Online yet a bit different. I don't know how difficult it would be to implement something like this, though.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Although not a "flag" the Hostile state will still occur in the wilderness areas. However, unlike the Criminal Flag (which is universal)the Hostility state only applies to those engaged in a hostile act and their immediate grouping, or company.
If in the wilds I attack Nihimon (no offense), Nihimon will see me as "Hostile". Anyone in Nihimon's present group will also see me as "Hostile", and anyone in T7V will see me as "Hostile" for the duration of that Hostile State.
Other companies or allies, even if they share T7V's settlement, will not see my action as "Hostile" because their agency ends at the borders of their settlement.
I don't believe this is accurate. See Does killing another player in the wilderness give me the Criminal Flag?
[Edit] Yes, it's an old thread, but I don't recall seeing anything since that significantly changed anything.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Leperkaun
Problem with that is there are no criminal flags in the wild uncontrolled hexes. Many, including ourselves, will be preying on the caravans moving rarer resources from those uncontrolled hexes, on their way to the settlement hexes. Criminal Flags won't apply, so they can't be required before a SAD and won't be suffered after.
I dont think so. This means that bandits are immune from retaliation and have a 100% advantage over everyone else.
So I KNOW you are a bandit, you are approaching me and Im going to assume you watched me mine a bunch of mithril. I know cannot do anything about that. The reason isnt because you are good at what you do, the reason is that the game is allowing you walk up and initiate the encounter without the victim being able to do anything about it.
Thats not risk for the bandits. Ohhh sure they could be killed, but the person killing them suffers a penalties for doing so.
What risk is there to the bandit?
There needs to be a flag for bandits for a couple of reasons.
1) It puts the bandits at as much risk as the victims
2) It allows others to initiate encounters with bandits
Now bandits have to worry when walking around a hex. They are now a target. A victim can now have people roam in front of him and eliminate threats. A settlement can try to make a hex clear for merchants by doing sweeps to get rid of bandits.
So I think that its fair that if bandits can initiate encounters penalty free, that other people can initiate encounters on bandits penalty free.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Leperkaun
Problem with that is there are no criminal flags in the wild uncontrolled hexes. Many, including ourselves, will be preying on the caravans moving rarer resources from those uncontrolled hexes, on their way to the settlement hexes. Criminal Flags won't apply, so they can't be required before a SAD and won't be suffered after.
I dont think so. This means that bandits are immune from retaliation and have a 100% advantage over everyone else.
So I KNOW you are a bandit, you are approaching me and Im going to assume you watched me mine a bunch of mithril. I know cannot do anything about that. The reason isnt because you are good at what you do, the reason is that the game is allowing you walk up and initiate the encounter without the victim being able to do anything about it.
Thats not risk for the bandits. Ohhh sure they could be killed, but the person killing them suffers a penalties for doing so.
What risk is there to the bandit?
There needs to be a flag for bandits for a couple of reasons.
1) It puts the bandits at as much risk as the victims
2) It allows others to initiate encounters with banditsNow bandits have to worry when walking around a hex. They are now a target. A victim can now have people roam in front of him and eliminate threats. A settlement can try to make a hex clear for merchants by doing sweeps to get rid of bandits.
So I think that its fair that if bandits can initiate encounters penalty free, that other people can initiate encounters on bandits penalty free.
Don't think that you are alone in feeling that way. What I like most is the word "fair" in your point. As long as it comes out fun, fair and balanced for ALL sides.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I think that its fair that if bandits can initiate encounters penalty free, that other people can initiate encounters on bandits penalty free.
I fundamentally agree with this principle.
I'm generally okay with Bandits not having to flag up beforehand as long as Merchants are able to issue Bounties on them. I also think the Merchants should be able to wait until they reach safety to issue those Bounties.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I hope flags dont work like that. If you are flagged you are flagged and you become a valid target for anyone else while you have the flag on you.
@Nihimon
i think that flags before hand add to the game. lets say that you have a settlement that is open for trade. You regularly trade stone for wood with another settlement. It is in your best interest to keep that pathway clear of bandits. If they are not flagged before they are not at risk of being ousted because anyone who engages them will lose rep and alignment. this means that a settlement has to resort to using low rep CE style alts to deal with the situation.
Its much better to the game I think to make it so that if you are waiting for a victim you have to be at risk to do so. This means that settlements can clear areas with patrols. If the bandits want to avoid doing that then all they have to do is not put their flag up and bandit.
At the same time if the flag only needs to be up 30 minutes before you bandit it means that bandits can wait for a patrol then flag themselves when its up, so that patrols would have to be constant to prevent bandits. So it costs a lot in man power to do that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I hope flags dont work like that. If you are flagged you are flagged and you become a valid target for anyone else while you have the flag on you.
I'm pretty sure that any time you attack an unflagged target - even in the wild uncontrolled hexes - you get flagged as a consequence-free target for everyone (not in your group, etc.)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I hope flags dont work like that. If you are flagged you are flagged and you become a valid target for anyone else while you have the flag on you.I'm pretty sure that any time you attack an unflagged target - even in the wild uncontrolled hexes - you get flagged as a consequence-free target for everyone (not in your group, etc.)
I'm almost positive about this also.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Leperkaun
Problem with that is there are no criminal flags in the wild uncontrolled hexes. Many, including ourselves, will be preying on the caravans moving rarer resources from those uncontrolled hexes, on their way to the settlement hexes. Criminal Flags won't apply, so they can't be required before a SAD and won't be suffered after.
I dont think so. This means that bandits are immune from retaliation and have a 100% advantage over everyone else.
So I KNOW you are a bandit, you are approaching me and Im going to assume you watched me mine a bunch of mithril. I know cannot do anything about that. The reason isnt because you are good at what you do, the reason is that the game is allowing you walk up and initiate the encounter without the victim being able to do anything about it.
Thats not risk for the bandits. Ohhh sure they could be killed, but the person killing them suffers a penalties for doing so.
What risk is there to the bandit?
There needs to be a flag for bandits for a couple of reasons.
1) It puts the bandits at as much risk as the victims
2) It allows others to initiate encounters with banditsNow bandits have to worry when walking around a hex. They are now a target. A victim can now have people roam in front of him and eliminate threats. A settlement can try to make a hex clear for merchants by doing sweeps to get rid of bandits.
So I think that its fair that if bandits can initiate encounters penalty free, that other people can initiate encounters on bandits penalty free.
What you're asking for is a preemptive attack, and I'm ok with that, because I would have it too.
The problem with what you are saying is the you want to be able to retaliate as a victim, before you have been victimized.
What do you do?
1. Travel in a group (deterrence)
2. Prepare to Fight (You have what you hold)
3. Run Away!!! (Evasions)
I really don't understand what you are not understanding about the nature of PVP. There is always a party that initiates the attack, and the victim is almost always non consensual.
The Devs have been very clear, travel outside of a group will be dangerous, actually quite deadly.
I plan on traveling with a large band, or I plan on risking death very often.
If the Hostility state works the way that Nevy wants, (you attack one, everyone in area sees you as hostile), then I will travel in what amounts to be a quasi zerg-Gank Squad of 20+.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I see ambushes ranging from minor (6 people) to major (a full raid team of like 3+ squads of 12 members each) The minor is for small groups (individuals, small parties, extremely lightly guarded caravans) the major for war-time or near war-time situations (Army supply train, heavy merch convoy, etc.)
Also, I know what I am calling my clan now I: was going to link it, but youtube searching is dead atm it seems (or my compy is being weird again)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What if SAD coins, instead of being an immediate transfer of funds, put the amount in a system-generated escrow account, and was then released to the bandit only after the merchant reached his destination?I really, really like that. It actually makes me think that a prior idea I had might also be workable, namely to give Merchants a strong incentive to put some Coin in escrow prior to their journey to cover any SADs they want to accept. If the Merchant didn't have enough in escrow to cover the SAD, then they automatically refuse.
This is a very raw idea, and not fully thought through.
Sort of like insurance in EVE. I like this too.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not pretending that I know how things will play out yet, but SAD does need to be a good choice for bandits. Some balance so that they are not immune to consequences, but also not horrible so that they are thrashed at all times that they intend to hunt and use SAD primarily. Otherwise, I don't see why they would use it.