[PFS] Hand-to-Hand Tengu?


Advice

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I have a really vague, poorly-defined concept in mind for an in-your-face tengu PC for PFS. I like the idea of two claw attacks, and I noticed that the alternate racial trait for that also lets you pretend to have IUS for purposes of feat prereqs. That means I could take Improved Grapple pretty easily. I also really like the Tengu Wings racial feat, letting me sprout wings and fly 1/day. I can't help grinning at the idea of Tengu Wings + Improved Grapple = FLYING PILEDRIVER! Oh, and continuing the flying theme, he'd have the Glide alternate racial trait. Makes me think I want this guy to be mobile overall, so probably lightly-armored and Acrobatics as a class skill.

I don't have much more in mind than that: fighting hand-to-hand, flying, maybe grappling. But how do I accomplish this?

One thought was with Warpriest from the Advanced Class Guide playtest.
I can take Weapon Focus (claw) as a bonus feat to bump my claw damage from 1d3 to 1d6, and let it continue to scale as I level. I get to be a spellcaster, while still maintaining full BAB for the claw attacks. If I spend a feat on Weapon Focus (grapple), I could even have full BAB there too. Oh, and I get a couple of bonus combat feats. The downside, though, is that makes me a d8 HD frontliner as a race with a CON penalty. Yikes.

Another thought would be straight fighter. Definitely enough feats to pursue whatever fighting styles I might want (maybe a little Feral Combat Training/Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity action?) On the other hand, if I ever want to overcome an obstacle other than "that thing needs to die", I'm relying on potions and party members. :/ That, and my claws stay at 1d3 damage.

I could go barbarian (possibly Urban?) instead. Stays full-BAB, I can help my grapple success rate with Rage, the d12 HD and the DR help with the CON penalty issue... heck, I even get more skills! There's still the "I'm not a spellcaster so I can't solve problems" issue, and I don't really know my way around rage powers.

I could come up with something more complicated, like Fighter2/Monk2 for bonus feats then a rogue dip for skills and then maybe a warpriest dip for damage dice and some minor spells and wand access and... I dunno. That would take a lot of work to design, but could be interesting.

So yeah, that's where I'm at. Suggestions/guidance appreciated, thanks!

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I think I like the Warpriest idea the best. Just get 12 Con and Toughness (maybe FCB to HP) and you should be fine. They can heal themselves anyway. Are there any Warpriest blessings that give flight?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

RainyDayNinja wrote:
I think I like the Warpriest idea the best. Just get 12 Con and Toughness (maybe FCB to HP) and you should be fine. They can heal themselves anyway.

Toughness and FCB=HP puts me at 8HP/level. That's where my cleric is, but he has way higher AC than this guy would. So I'd need some CON enhancement, though even that only puts me up to 9HP/level. I guess that's doable, especially if I take the Healing blessing so I can do freebie-quickened self-cures.

Quote:
Are there any Warpriest blessings that give flight?

I haven't really looked at the higher-level blessings yet (and can't from this computer), but they don't kick in until 10th anyway. :/

About what level could a guy get celestial armor do you think? EDIT: Or winged boots, I suppose.


Jiggy, you may want to look at the Lore Warden archetype for the Fighter class. Bonuses to CMB/CMD and added knowledge-skill utility in exchange for a loss of medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, while still having feats galore. Since you'd probably do light armor with a Brawling enchant anyway, that's not really an issue.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Lamontius wrote:

Jiggy, you may want to look at the Lore Warden archetype for the Fighter class. Bonuses to CMB/CMD and added knowledge-skill utility in exchange for a loss of medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, while still having feats galore. Since you'd probably do light armor with a Brawling enchant anyway, that's not really an issue.

That still leaves me with the "I have to use potions to deal with obstacles" issue, which has me feeling very hesitant. Maybe I'm addicted to magic? Or too jaded by GMs who cry foul if you attempt to overcome something creatively instead of with a spell whose sole purpose is to overcome that specific obstacle? Or maybe both? Hrm.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Jiggy wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

Jiggy, you may want to look at the Lore Warden archetype for the Fighter class. Bonuses to CMB/CMD and added knowledge-skill utility in exchange for a loss of medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, while still having feats galore. Since you'd probably do light armor with a Brawling enchant anyway, that's not really an issue.

That still leaves me with the "I have to use potions to deal with obstacles" issue, which has me feeling very hesitant. Maybe I'm addicted to magic? Or too jaded by GMs who cry foul if you attempt to overcome something creatively instead of with a spell whose sole purpose is to overcome that specific obstacle? Or maybe both? Hrm.

If you invest in Int, you can dump Cha, take the Pragmatic Activator trait, and get a solid UMD for magic items.


How about a ranger with the natural weapons fighting style?

You get 4 level spellcasting so you can easily use wands & scrolls, lots of skill points, not too much armor, d10HD, and archetypes to get rid of anything you don't like.


I think GC's idea of the natural weapon ranger is the better fit. Then you could get an axe beak animal companion!


Jiggy wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

Jiggy, you may want to look at the Lore Warden archetype for the Fighter class. Bonuses to CMB/CMD and added knowledge-skill utility in exchange for a loss of medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, while still having feats galore. Since you'd probably do light armor with a Brawling enchant anyway, that's not really an issue.

That still leaves me with the "I have to use potions to deal with obstacles" issue, which has me feeling very hesitant. Maybe I'm addicted to magic? Or too jaded by GMs who cry foul if you attempt to overcome something creatively instead of with a spell whose sole purpose is to overcome that specific obstacle? Or maybe both? Hrm.

What do you mean by "obstacles"? Things like darkness, flight, invisibility, damage reduction? Or something else?

Also, yeah, I like R.D.N.'s Pragmatic Activator suggestion for added utility in addition to bringing all the knowledge skills to the table.


The natural weapon fighting style aint worth it if you already have claws attacks. Lore warden is probably the better fit. Make sure you take a tarit for bite attack.

Having high CMB and enchanced natural attacks and being a full-caster is not asn easy fit.

Are we sure that weapon focus (grapple) is legal?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

XMorsX wrote:
Are we sure that weapon focus (grapple) is legal?
Weapon Focus wrote:
You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bump?

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Maybe it would actually be good for you to try a character who isn't a spellcaster at all. Certainly novel, at least.


Are you trying to keep this as single-classed as possible? Here's a multi-class approach if you don't care about losing part of your favored class bonus.

Six levels of ranger with natural combat would net you Rending Claws* (lv2) and Eldritch Claws (lv6) as bonus feats, +4/+4 against one favored enemy (humans?) and +2/+2 against a second (evil outsiders?), and a moderate spell list for "problem solving". You could grab the infiltrator archetype to snag Iron Will as a bonus feat if you didn't care to have a favored terrain.

You could then pick up six levels of fighter (unarmed) for a bonus style feat, fighter bonus feats and weapon training. I'm not sure if Rending Claws lets you qualify for the Rending Fury feat chain in PFS, but if it does your bonus feats would let you take the full feat chain by 12th level. Even if you skip the third feat for the bleed effect, that would be +2d6 rending on each successful claw attack.

*Alternately, if you didn't care about getting Rending Claws you could take Weapon Focus (claws) to set you up for Feral Combat Training to use claws with style feats.

Scarab Sages

Tengus don't need Feral Combat Training to use style feats with claws, they already count as Unarmed Strikes for feat purposes. Rending claws + Boar Style will add an extra 3d6 damage per round if you hit with two or more claws.

The more I think about it, the more I want to make a Tengu single class master of many styles. The three primary natural weapons make up for the lack of flurry, and they can really get a lot of mileage out of multiple style feats.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Tengus don't need Feral Combat Training to use style feats with claws, they already count as Unarmed Strikes for feat purposes.

That's not accurate. The claws are counted as being natural weapons, and as an unrelated ability, cause the Tengu to be treated as having Improved Unarmed Strike for feat prerequisites.

Nothing in the racial trait says you get to use the claws as unarmed strikes.

Dark Archive

Well first Ranger is definitely one of the better class choices for this build (Barbarian is better if you want to annihilate your targets but it's a bit one dimensional)
.
Now, Natural weapon combat style isn't NEEDED since the race automatically comes with the natural attacks the style does add a few extras that can be useful.
As a Tengu you don't get darkvision but at 2nd level a natural weapon ranger Tengu can get Darkvision 30' from Aspect of the Beast. Also at 6th level you automatically qualify for [/url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/eldritch-claws]Eldritch Claws[/url] which is vital for a build like this. If you go dex build with an agile AoMF focus it's the only way for you to get this feat.
Finally if you want to be TRULY offensive then you add Multiattack into the mix at 10th level (the only legal way to do this in PFS) and freely add your weapon attacks in with your natural attacks at well. This can lead to an absolutely insane amount of melee damage every full attack since you'll get all your iteratives as well your natural attacks.

Feral Combat Training is a trap for this build. Remember you can only add 1 type of natural attacks with that feat and you can only take it once so you'd lose your Beak attack.

There are two routes to take with this however, you can dip into rogue to get sneak attack on all your attacks (and with the ranger animal companion you'll always have a flanking buddy) to really up your damage.

OR

You can go freebooter ranger route and guarantee your favored enemy bonus on every opponent for you AND your party members. This is the more group friendly build (by 10th level you and all your playmates would be rocking a +5 to hit/+3 to damage against anything you choose whenever you choose).

Either are very viable it really comes down to what type of player you want to be.

Scarab Sages

The Morphling wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Tengus don't need Feral Combat Training to use style feats with claws, they already count as Unarmed Strikes for feat purposes.

That's not accurate. The claws are counted as being natural weapons, and as an unrelated ability, cause the Tengu to be treated as having Improved Unarmed Strike for feat prerequisites.

Nothing in the racial trait says you get to use the claws as unarmed strikes.

I just re-read the trait, and your are right. It doesn't say you get to use the claws as unarmed strikes, but it should.

If you have the claw racial trait and take pretty much ANY feat that has Improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, you need to use that feat with an unarmed strike. If you are using you claws to qualify for those abilities, you should be able to use them with your claws.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

WRoy wrote:

Are you trying to keep this as single-classed as possible? Here's a multi-class approach if you don't care about losing part of your favored class bonus.

Six levels of ranger with natural combat would net you Rending Claws* (lv2) and Eldritch Claws (lv6) as bonus feats, +4/+4 against one favored enemy (humans?) and +2/+2 against a second (evil outsiders?), and a moderate spell list for "problem solving". You could grab the infiltrator archetype to snag Iron Will as a bonus feat if you didn't care to have a favored terrain.

You could then pick up six levels of fighter (unarmed) for a bonus style feat, fighter bonus feats and weapon training. I'm not sure if Rending Claws lets you qualify for the Rending Fury feat chain in PFS, but if it does your bonus feats would let you take the full feat chain by 12th level. Even if you skip the third feat for the bleed effect, that would be +2d6 rending on each successful claw attack.

*Alternately, if you didn't care about getting Rending Claws you could take Weapon Focus (claws) to set you up for Feral Combat Training to use claws with style feats.

How exactly would I get the rend special attack in order to qualify for Rending Fury? Rending Claws certainly doesn't grant it.

Also, Rending Fury doesn't let me rend on every claw hit, it just lets me rend 1/round even if one claw misses.


Hi there, what did you end up doing?
Myself I am playing a tiefling with claw racial. Currently a 2nd level infiltrator ranger with the natural weapon path. Took weapon focus claws and improved natural attack claws so far. The next three levels are monk of many styles: dragon for both. feats are feral combat training and monastic legacy.
level 1 claws 1d3
level 2 claws 1d4
level 3 claws 1d8
level 4 claws 1d8
level 5 claws 2d6

strongjaw is another nice spell to look at, pumps it to a 4d6!


I think you have confused the situation, Laurela. Taking levels of monk and feral combat training does not increase your claw damage dice. Improved natural attack is also not a very good expenditure of a feat, but if you've already taken it, you'd have to retrain to replace it.

Shadow Lodge

a tengu warpriest of Apsu solves all issues. Go dex build, save for an agile AOMF. Warpriest class powers grant your deity's favored weapon and any weapon you take wapon focus in as a Sacred Weapon. Apsu's is Bite. Weapon Focus Claw for free at level 1 also. All 3 natural attacks are now Sacred and the damage die's all scale (D6 at 1st, for Claw Claw and Bite)

Scarab Sages

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I think you have confused the situation, Laurela. Taking levels of monk and feral combat training does not increase your claw damage dice.

Per the FAQ, it does.

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