Design Manager
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I see this come up a lot and I was curious if there was ever a solid answer:
Can feats like Manyshot or Rapid Shot, which give you an extra attack when used as part of a ranged attack sequence, be used as part of an attack sequence that includes melee attacks?
Two examples:
Jory is a Rogue who TWFs with daggers has Quickdraw,Two Weapon Fighting, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting and a BAB of at least +6/+1. He's gotten the jump on the enemy and is pretty sure he can drop the first guard and possibly the second. So Jory wants to use two melee attacks (his first attacks with his main and off-hand) to knife Guard 1, and then throw three knives at guard number 2, one for his secondary attack by BAB, one for Imp. TWF, and one for Rapid Shot. Is that legit?
In an alternate universe, Jory is an archer who is in combat with a number of melee opponents. Jory knows Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Improved Trip, Catch Off-Guard, and has a BAB of at least +6/+1 . Jory starts his attack routine with Manyshot against one opponent, when another opponent uses a readied action to step adjacent to Jory, hoping to take advantage of the AoOs Jory will grant by firing a ranged weapon while threatened in melee. Can Jory complete his Manyshot, then use his second attack granted by BAB to use his bow as an improvised weapon, tripping the attacker who threatens him in melee, and then finish the routine with Rapid Shot?
I feel like the answer is yes, and I've ruled it as such, but I just wasn't sure if that was a houserule I'd just assumed was RAW.
As far as I can tell, this is valid. It could get a bit complicated, however, as you're switching between DEX-based and STR-based attacks. By the wording of the feat, the -2 penalty from Rapid Shot should apply to all attacks, not just the ranged. And also by the wording of the feat, you'd only get to fire two arrows with Manyshot if you used your first attack in your turn to shoot the bow (as it says "on your first attack").
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Design Manager
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Manyshot only works with bows and since bows require two hands to use, you would have to drop the bow and quick draw a melee weapon. However, the ranged attacks would have to come first in the sequence. I would say the same thing goes for Rapid Shot.
Reread what I wrote. He's using Catch Off-Guard to use his bow as an improvised weapon and perform the trip. All the attacks are being made with the same weapon(s). Why would I have to make the ranged attacks first (other than Manyshot which stipulates that it must be the first attack)?
As far as I can tell, this is valid. It could get a bit complicated, however, as you're switching between DEX-based and STR-based attacks. By the wording of the feat, the -2 penalty from Rapid Shot should apply to all attacks, not just the ranged. And also by the wording of the feat, you'd only get to fire two arrows with Manyshot if you used your first attack in your turn to shoot the bow (as it says "on your first attack").
Yep, I was aware of that, that's why I stipulated that he completed the Manyshot and used the second attack in the sequence to trip.
Manyshot only works with bows and since bows require two hands to use, you would have to drop the bow and quick draw a melee weapon. However, the ranged attacks would have to come first in the sequence. I would say the same thing goes for Rapid Shot.
You can release\change your grip on a weapon as a free action. No need to drop the bow.
Assuming you've got a BAB that grants 3 attacks per round, and have Manyshot, Rapid Shot, and Quick Draw, you could make your first shot with your bow to fire 2 arrows (Manyshot), release the bow with one hand as a free action, draw a dagger as a free action, make your second attack with the dagger in melee, throw the dagger as your final BAB attack, regrip the bow for free, and fire a final arrow (the 'free' attack from Rapid Shot).
Note that without a lot of juggling, until you get some feats invested you'd be provoking during the sequence at some point (depending when you move adjacent to the foe you're making a melee attack against).
This is how I have always ruled it. You can switch weapons (and attack styles) within a full-attack action, so you are 'making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon' as required. It does say "additional time", so it would be reasonable to say that you have to make at least two ranged attacks.
That point would differ from 3.5. It's probably not intentional, as the Pathfinder language is simply cleaner (two sentences instead of four, saying essentially the same thing), but that started with "You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon."
You couldn't combine two-weapon fighting with the bow though .
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Design Manager
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No you can't. Switching between weapons is at a minimum, a move action Both Rapid Shot and Multi-Shot are full attack actions. All you have left after using either, is a 5 foot step.
The only attack sequence mentioned that involves "switching" weapons can do it as a free action thanks to Quick Draw.
**EDIT** Ninja'd by dwkarg
in the first scenario, Jory is already -2 for TWF and Rapid Shot applies another -2 to all attacks, so -4... basically your attack routine is MH/OH/RS/MH/OH at STR+2/STR+2/DEX+2/DEX-3/DEX-3.
alternate universe Jory is going to take an AoO for the Manyshot that he must complete. i see no reason he can't use his second attack to make that trip attempt, but we should assume the extra attack from Rapid Shot is at the highest BAB and you have to take them from highest to lowest so you'd have to take it before the trip attempt. though RAW Rapid Shot can be at any BAB.
at least that's how i'm understanding it.
edit: perhaps we shouldn't make any assumptions about Rapid Shot and which iterative attack it must be.
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Design Manager
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in the first scenario, Jory is already -2 for TWF and Rapid Shot applies another -2 to all attacks, so -4... basically your attack routine is MH/OH/RS/MH/OH at STR+2/STR+2/DEX+2/DEX-3/DEX-3.
alternate universe Jory is going to take an AoO for the Manyshot that he must complete. i see no reason he can't use his second attack to make that trip attempt, but we should assume the extra attack from Rapid Shot is at the highest BAB and you have to take them from highest to lowest so you'd have to take it before the trip attempt. though RAW Rapid Shot can be at any BAB.
at least that's how i'm understanding it.
The rule only states that additional attacks granted by your BAB have to be taken in order. I'm pretty sure that attacks granted through other means aren't subject to that.
true... then yeah, no reason you can't do it exactly as stated. primary universe Jory is still taking stupid penalties to hit, but yeah, it all seems legit.
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You couldn't combine two-weapon fighting with the bow though .
sure you could, and it's not that complicated. all your attacks (including your ranged bow attacks) take the -2. every time you fire your bow as a ranged weapon it requires two of these "effort hands" the devs talk about. so with only two "effort hands", you can obviously make either 1 ranged attack or 2 melee attacks with each iteration. it only gets complicated when you acquire more of these so-called "effort-hands" and want to combine two handed weapons with two weapon fighting, but this is really all talk for another thread now that i think about it.
I still say no. Both feats say you must make a full attack with a ranged weapon. Once you start mixing in melee attacks, other than a secondary natural attack like a bite, you're no longer making a full attack with a ranged weapon.
if you are making more than one attack in a round, you are making a full attack. if any of those attacks is with a ranged weapon, your full attack is now "with a ranged weapon". there is no stipulation about making all of your attacks with the same ranged weapon.
edit: i can see how someone might make the argument that rapid shot can only be done with projectile (as opposed to thrown) weapons, though, as it uses phrasing "you can fire one additional time this round." emphasis mine.
If you use your bow as an improvised weapon, it is no longer a ranged weapon so you are not making a full attack using a ranged weapon. As well, the improvised weapons rule disallows anything that is a manufactured weapon to be used as an improvised weapon. This is discussed at great length in the "using your reach weapon to threaten adjacent squares" discussions that are currently floating around the front page. Using a manufactured weapon improperly does not make it an improvised weapon.
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Design Manager
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I still say no. Both feats say you must make a full attack with a ranged weapon. Once you start mixing in melee attacks, other than a secondary natural attack like a bite, you're no longer making a full attack with a ranged weapon.
Why would the bite be an exception? It's still part of the full attack sequence, so you'd be making a full attack with a bite and a ranged weapon instead of a full attack with the same weapon used for either melee or ranged. There's nothing in the natural weapons rules that would create a distinction between being able to use a bite but not a dagger in a given attack sequence.
I think Bigdaddyjug is reading "full attack with a ranged weapon" to mean "[make all attacks from a] full attack with a ranged weapon".
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Design Manager
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If you use your bow as an improvised weapon, it is no longer a ranged weapon so you are not making a full attack using a ranged weapon. As well, the improvised weapons rule disallows anything that is a manufactured weapon to be used as an improvised weapon. This is discussed at great length in the "using your reach weapon to threaten adjacent squares" discussions that are currently floating around the front page. Using a manufactured weapon improperly does not make it an improvised weapon.
I would disagree with the assertion that there is anything in the rules which disallows using a manufactured weapon for something other than its intended purpose as an improvised weapon.
I think there's mostly one group of people who it rubs the wrong way and another group of people who think that arguing that you can hit someone with a 10 foot pole, but only if it doesn't have a pointy thing on the end or a string between the top and bottom, is imbecilic.
RAW I think so.
RAI who knows?
RA my table: it's never come up but - hey, awesome, rule of cool. I might object if it was/felt cheesy, but stacking penalties to (try to) do cool stuff? Fill your boots!
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Design Manager
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RAW I think so.
RAI who knows?
RA my table: it's never come up but - hey, awesome, rule of cool. I might object if it was/felt cheesy, but stacking penalties to (try to) do cool stuff? Fill your boots!
My thought as well. I believe the RAW support it, I can't think of a thematic reason not to allow it, and arguing that it breaks the game in any way is demonstrably untrue.
I think the ranged weapon is the key. In example #1 everything is done with a ranged weapon, a knife. It seems to me that this should work with any weapon that is both a melee and ranged weapon especially in conjunction with quick draw. In example #2 I think the problem is using the bow as an improvised weapon, not a ranged weapon by definition.
I like it because it is cinematic. How many times have we seen some hero take someone out with a knife then throw the knife to take out the second sentry. Awesome! and if you are Legolas heck you can just stab people with your arrows in-between shooting them.
but in example two, alternate universe Jory has already made ranged attacks as part of his full attack... so his full attack is already "with a ranged weapon". that he temporarily uses that ranged weapon in an improvised fashion in melee is irrelevant.
the only actual rules issue in this whole thread is whether or not Rapid Shot can be used with a thrown weapon.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
the use of the term 'fire' (emphasis on that in the quotation mine by the way) there may or may not have been intended to limit this feat.
Also, how does the answer change if Jory has the sword and pistol feat, which clearly indicates the character is able to fight with a mix of melee and ranged attacks?
Interesting question.
Manyshot seems dubious. I mean, it might be possible to go the improvised weapon route but whether that was intended, I don't know. Chances are, without a very specific, feat-heavy build, there will be a lot of AoO provoked, so I'd probably allow it in a home game.
Rapid Shot is a little more clear, though for some reason I don't really like the idea of combining Rapid Shot with Two-Weapon Fighting. I don't think there's anything to actually prevent it, but it certainly feels like you're getting the same benefit twice (the extra attack with all attacks getting the -2 penalty). Regardless, I would likely allow it in a home game, though explicit declarations about the intent of the acts to be accomplished would need to be made before anything actually happened. While I think the intent of the feat is clear that the extra attack is supposed to be at the highest BAB, I'd probably let the PC use their Rapid Shot on a lower BAB attack if the throws weren't until later in the sequence - ultimately in that case the player is intentionally reducing their own benefit from the feat.
So, in a home game I'd probably be good with it, though I'd make sure all the math was correct and actions were declared prior to anything being rolled. The tracking could be a bit cumbersome. And I'd probably help the player figure it out if I was the GM too, just to make sure everything is set up and tracked appropriately.
In a PFS game, I'm not sure. I'd probably still allow it but the player would need to be on the spot with the action-order and tracking so that way game play is not drastically slowed.
If your PFS character might have the opportunity to do something like this in a game, I think it'd be a good idea to give your GM a heads-up since it's always frustrating to have these types of unusual circumstances thrust on you mid-game when you have a thousand other things to worry about, too.
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Just as a note, alternate version of Jory with Catch Off-Guard was kind of tied into the idea of using this cavalier order. Shooting your enemies and being able to turn around and sweep the legs out from under anyone who snuck up on you seemed like a pretty sweet idea, as did potentially charging past someone and clotheslining them with your bow. I could be wrong, but it also kind of seems like that may have been exactly what the author was going for. It certainly seems more realistic and thematic than dropping your bow mid-fire, drawing a sword, and stabbing someone all in the same 6 second block of time.
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These are my initial gut reactions:
1) there is no limitation on being able to mix melee attacks with ranged attacks for normal iterative attacks.
2) for feats such as Manyshot or Rapid Shot, once you commit yourself, you are stuck with making the remaining attacks with that particular ranged weapon. So, as far as the OP is concerned, I would say no.
3) the intent of Rapid Shot is to be used with projectile weapons; thrown weapons make use of two-weapon fighting.
In the case of the TWF dagger person, if at the beginning of the round the character takes the penalties for everything. I think it thematically works fine and theres no real funny math.
Dex of 20 bab +6 +1 daggers +12 to hit so
+8 +8 +8 +3
But the extra attacks for rapid shot have to be done with a ranged weapon. My guess is you could do any one of the +8 attacks in the other you prefer then the +3?
The many shot one is more confusing..
Really just realize you cant retroactivly add stuff in once you have started your combat sequence, All the penalties have to be allied right at the start.
perhaps, but RAW the answer is yes to everything except maybe using Rapid Shot with a throwing weapon.
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what part?
edit: i assume you mean the "when you make a full-attack action with _____" part but we've addressed this. anytime you make more than one attack, it's a full-attack action. if any of those attacks are ranged, the full attack is "with a ranged weapon". if that ranged weapon is a bow, then that too.
Rapid Shot can't work with thrown weapons because throwing builds can't have nice things. :P
I allow Rapid Shot to function with thrown weapons. To me, the "with a ranged weapon" statement is the key; "fire" is used because there's no real convenient single word that covers "fire or throw", and the designers saved word space, assuming that people would see the "or throw" as implied by the fact that thrown weapons are ranged weapons.
What about a monk using a bow? They can use Flurry of Blows and make all melee attacks with unarmed strikes (even with hands full like holding a bow). Could the Monk use Flurry of Blows and Rapid Shot (stacking penalties) to make all his unarmed attacks, take a 5' step back (which can be done in the middle of a Full Attack) and then fire his bow with Rapid Shot? It seems like that is against RAI especially since it says that Flurry can't be used with Two Weapon Fighting which leads me to think that they are just trying to say "When you Flurry, you can't get any extra attacks with feats", which would mean Rapid Shot shouldn't work either.
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Design Manager
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What about a monk using a bow? They can use Flurry of Blows and make all melee attacks with unarmed strikes (even with hands full like holding a bow). Could the Monk use Flurry of Blows and Rapid Shot (stacking penalties) to make all his unarmed attacks, take a 5' step back (which can be done in the middle of a Full Attack) and then fire his bow with Rapid Shot? It seems like that is against RAI especially since it says that Flurry can't be used with Two Weapon Fighting which leads me to think that they are just trying to say "When you Flurry, you can't get any extra attacks with feats", which would mean Rapid Shot shouldn't work either.
I disagree with that. When they say it can't be used with Two Weapon Fighting, it's because Flurry already uses the Two Weapon Fighting rules and feats as part of the ability's chassis. Nothing about that restricts any other feats or abilities, and in fact, when they created the Zen Archer they specifically disallowed Manyshot and Rapid Shot from his specialized Flurry, indicating that they otherwise would have been options (which makes sense, Flurrying with a Composite Longbow is much more powerful than shuriken). Monks combining Flurry and Rapid Shot to create hails of shuriken is something I've seen at tables for years.
What about a monk using a bow?
Monks can mix and match shuriken with flurry, and should be able to use Rapid Shot. Bows are not an issue though:
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
And a Zen Archer specifically cannot use Rapid Shot I believe.
Rapid Shot can't work with thrown weapons because throwing builds can't have nice things. :P
I allow Rapid Shot to function with thrown weapons. To me, the "with a ranged weapon" statement is the key; "fire" is used because there's no real convenient single word that covers "fire or throw", and the designers saved word space, assuming that people would see the "or throw" as implied by the fact that thrown weapons are ranged weapons.
oh i agree with you that it was probably for convenience, but i can see how someone might argue that you can't use throwing weapons with it and wouldn't bother to argue back.