Goblin Squad Member
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The subject of Prestige Classes has been raised before but has not, as far as I am aware, really had an official answer.
Obviously, without a PnP-style class system, the term 'Prestige Class' is a little redundant, but the abilities and powers available to many Prestige Classes are useful to broader character concepts.
As an example, I want something along the lines of the Shadowdancer's ability to Hide in Plain Sight, the ability to fade from notice (very Granny Weatherwax for Pratchett fans). I dare say other such abilities appeal to other players for their own concepts.
I assume that any Prestige Classes and their abilities would be post-EE, and possibly post-OE (the basics are more important), but do GW have plans to introduce Prestige Class-style abilities to the game? I would even be prepared to pay to unlock such advanced powers, and I dare say plenty of others would as well. Prestige Classes make an interesting twist to character concepts but are not required to build a powerful PC, thus making them an attractive luxury rather than a basic element of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I to would like Prestige Class-like abilities. However I'm oppose to having to pay to unlock those advanced powers. That is basically 'pay to win' feature and I don't want PFO to fall into that trap.
Now having to accomplish some type of in-game achievement would be more than acceptable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is 'pay-to-win' as long as no one feature is more powerful than another. Theoretically and ideally, a Rogue 4/Shadowdancer 4 should be as powerful as a Rogue 8 (or the equivalent in the PFO system), but have a very different feel. What paying for Prestige abilities would mean is that minority abilities would be more cost-effective for GW to programme.
If they can achieve Prestige abilities without needing to make them 'Pay to Unlock' then obviously I'd prefer that. However, I would prefer 'Pay to Unlock' to 'sorry, it isn't cost-effective to include'. I like your idea of an in-game achievement to unlock an ability tree, as long as the requisites for that achievement are reasonably well known.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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To clarify what you want:
There are several interesting and fun Class Features in Pathfinder that are not part of the Core or Base Classes.
You hope that many of those Class Features have analogue Abilities in PFO.
If I'm right, then it's a question of crowd forging priority. Based on the ratio of desire for a particular feature to the amount of time=money to provide it, each added feature will be prioritized.
For example, I expect that mounts and pets will be higher on the list than Alchemists and Dragon Disciples- because each new "class" takes a lot of time but many appeal to few players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's pretty much what I'm looking for (eventually). What I'd really like to know is whether the designers have any plans to bring in the Prestige Classes/abilities, or whether they are going to draw a line when the Core (and maybe Base) PF Classes are complete and launched.
Obviously the 'never say never' disclaimer will apply, but it would be nice to know if the possibility of a future launch of Prestige Class abilities has been discussed within the design and/or production team.
Although I wouldn't say that my character concept is dependant on the Hide in Plain Sight ability, but it is certainly something I'd like to develop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I seem to remember one of the devs recently talking about possibly having cross-Role implements...
Okay, found it.
The plan right now is that each "role" (class) has a Key Object. Bound to the Key Object are various character abilities that map to the class features of the tabletop classes. You can have two Key Objects equipped, and you can switch between them instantly. So a multi-class Pathfinder Online character is one that has the Key Object for two different roles equipped.
However, that means that you've made a significant tradeoff. While having the Key Object for a role in one set of slots gives you access to that role's feature set, you might want to put something other than a Key Object in the other set of slots. Like a ranged weapon, or a harvesting tool, or a different version of the Key Object for the same role (Maybe you want a sword that has keywords useful against undead in one set of slots, and a sword that has keywords useful against oozes in the other, for example).
The ability to mix & match these Key Objects is how we approximate multiclassing. We can blur those distinctions even further if we make Key Objects that class role boundaries - a Key Object useful to both a Cleric and a Rogue, for example, that isn't as focused as one built for just one role, but creates interesting synergies that might make the item worth using for some characters.
Then you consider the wide range of things like armor, magical items in the ring, head, cloak, boot, and belt slots, and how those objects affect your character and potential provide additional slottable abilities, and you get rapidly into a fractal space where characters can be highly divergent.
What we're not going to try to do is create well-defined role templates out of those combos. Players may do so on their own initiative, but we're not going to be held to them - what you do in terms of how you build out your character is your own choice, it's not a blueprint endorsed by us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope that rare hard to find NPC trainers can teach characters rare/unusual abilities which may simulate prestige classes. In order to get their training you may need to gain influence/prestige with them. I would also hope that players eventually have the ability to create our own role specific key object which we can then choose what role abilities to add to them (like spells in a spellbook), including abilities from other roles. This would then allow us to have a variety of key objects in our inventory which we could swap to depending on the situation at hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't foresee a major challenge to the addition of popular skills down the development road associated with prestige classes so long as they can be attached to an equipable item like a circlet or ring. They are skills like any other, aren't they?
It seems to be difficult to step outside the paradigmatic 'class' tradition we have grown so comfortable with. There aren't really any classes, let alone prestige classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't foresee a major challenge to the addition of popular skills down the development road associated with prestige classes so long as they can be attached to an equipable item like a circlet or ring. They are skills like any other, aren't they?
It seems to be difficult to step outside the paradigmatic 'class' tradition we have grown so comfortable with. There aren't really any classes, let alone prestige classes.
I'm sure there are a half dozen good ways to do it but one would be something like:
1. Create 3-4 feat trees for the Shadowdancer "prestige class" and a corresponding "key item".
2. Make the Shadowdancer have synergy bonus with Rogue/Bard/Barbarian/Ranger.
I hope that rare hard to find NPC trainers can teach characters rare/unusual abilities which may simulate prestige classes. In order to get their training you may need to gain influence/prestige with them. I would also hope that players eventually have the ability to create our own role specific key object which we can then choose what role abilities to add to them (like spells in a spellbook), including abilities from other roles. This would then allow us to have a variety of key objects in our inventory which we could swap to depending on the situation at hand.
Crazy idea: Maybe some of these trainers could be rewards for defeating things like special Escalation Cycles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope that rare hard to find NPC trainers can teach characters rare/unusual abilities which may simulate prestige classes. In order to get their training you may need to gain influence/prestige with them. I would also hope that players eventually have the ability to create our own role specific key object which we can then choose what role abilities to add to them (like spells in a spellbook), including abilities from other roles. This would then allow us to have a variety of key objects in our inventory which we could swap to depending on the situation at hand.Crazy idea: Maybe some of these trainers could be rewards for defeating things like special Escalation Cycles.
Sounds delicious!
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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The core elements of Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and other caster multiclass prestige classes will potentially make their way in sooner rather than later. That is, it's relatively easy for us to make a new role feature feat that combines the keywords of two different roles that don't normally have any overlap on their implements, so you can use two different implements with decent facility (rather than one at full facility and one at minimal facility).
That would just be the implement usage crossover, no other special abilities, and it may or may not let you keep a dedication bonus. It's essentially a way to make multiclassing work for dissimilar roles without complicating the way you acquire implement keywords. If the players and/or Paizo would prefer we not put any of those in without their signature special abilities (e.g., Spell Critical for EK, Combined Spells and Spell Synthesis for MT, Invisible Thief for AT, etc.), then they might not be as soon as I expect, but otherwise it'd be pretty simple to set up.
As others have noted, full-on implementation of prestige classes with lots of special features will depend on difficulty of their feature set and demand by the players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The core elements of Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and other caster multiclass prestige classes will potentially make their way in sooner rather than later. That is, it's relatively easy for us to make a new role feature feat that combines the keywords of two different roles that don't normally have any overlap on their implements, so you can use two different implements with decent facility (rather than one at full facility and one at minimal facility).
That would just be the implement usage crossover, no other special abilities, and it may or may not let you keep a dedication bonus. It's essentially a way to make multiclassing work for dissimilar roles without complicating the way you acquire implement keywords. If the players and/or Paizo would prefer we not put any of those in without their signature special abilities (e.g., Spell Critical for EK, Combined Spells and Spell Synthesis for MT, Invisible Thief for AT, etc.), then they might not be as soon as I expect, but otherwise it'd be pretty simple to set up.
As others have noted, full-on implementation of prestige classes with lots of special features will depend on difficulty of their feature set and demand by the players.
*Hugs Stephen Cheney in a manly fashion*
Best news I've heard all day, nay month.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Importantly, all the martial classes already have a decent amount of overlap between their keywords for implements. That is, a Fighter using a Rogue Kit is already better at it than he would be using a Spellbook. So, like in tabletop, it's really the caster/caster and caster/martial multiclasses that need help.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A logician's wife is having a baby. The doctor immediately hands the newborn to the dad.
His wife asks impatiently: "So, is it a boy or a girl"?
The logician replies: "yes".
Whats wrong with the answer, I reply to doubles like that all the time. Personally I think it adds to my charm, others tend to disagree :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as we are here, what are the current thoughts for the "base" classes. Witch/Oracle/Magus/Inquisitor can't be that hard to implement. Alchemist is a little trickier but not too bad. Summoner/Cavalier/Gunslinger sound like long shots but I'd still like to know what GW thinks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't it Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue currently?
I'd say focus on Druid & Ranger, Monk, Sorceror, and so on. in that order.
Correct. The reason you have it backwards for the rest to be added is because Druids and Rangers require a new system: Animal Companions. Monks require unique animations. Sorcerers, Bards, Barbarians, and Paladins require far less unique effort (depending on how they're implemented).
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Goblin Squad Member
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exactly. I'd rather GW focus time during EE to building the new systems and getting them out, rather than rushing before, or during, OE. Not that they would rush, it is just getting the new systems out sooner allows us more time to respond to it and allow them to fix any problems.
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I would wish the focus to be on Bards and Monks, myself, though that is unlikely. Paladins would be cool, too.
Bards would help tune the interesting idea of social combat as well as area buffs or debuffs, and test a non-combat class (or at least one specializing in skills over feats) against those already in the game.
Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Paladins wouldn't take much to implement, since they are similar in some ways to classes already created.
Monks are just really cool and have to work off of a different scaling than those using weapons and armor, but to make interesting requires a lot of work, so it wouldn't be worth it to prioritize them unless they cause the most interest.
I'm not sure why the topic is called prestige classes, though, as it seems to focus on bringing base and advanced classes into the game. I imagine with the open class system archetypes will be replaced with more options available to the base class and the old prestige classes being replaced by skill-sets available only to those that have enough points in multiple corresponding classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The core elements of Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and other caster multiclass prestige classes will potentially make their way in sooner rather than later. That is, it's relatively easy for us to make a new role feature feat that combines the keywords of two different roles that don't normally have any overlap on their implements, so you can use two different implements with decent facility (rather than one at full facility and one at minimal facility).
That would just be the implement usage crossover, no other special abilities, and it may or may not let you keep a dedication bonus. It's essentially a way to make multiclassing work for dissimilar roles without complicating the way you acquire implement keywords. If the players and/or Paizo would prefer we not put any of those in without their signature special abilities (e.g., Spell Critical for EK, Combined Spells and Spell Synthesis for MT, Invisible Thief for AT, etc.), then they might not be as soon as I expect, but otherwise it'd be pretty simple to set up.
As others have noted, full-on implementation of prestige classes with lots of special features will depend on difficulty of their feature set and demand by the players.
That's kind of cool. It will be nice to get some of that functionality early on despite the fact that I feel like core classes, then classes from the advanced player's guide should definitely be higher on the priority list.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Correct. The reason you have it backwards for the rest to be added is because Druids and Rangers require a new system: Animal Companions. Monks require unique animations. Sorcerers, Bards, Barbarians, and Paladins require far less unique effort (depending on how they're implemented).Isn't it Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue currently?
I'd say focus on Druid & Ranger, Monk, Sorceror, and so on. in that order.
I'd say bard would require a lot of unique effort, unless they're just going for a very simple base bard at first which they expand on at some later point. I'd hate to see bard only be about buffing, when they can be so much more than that in this kind of game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They could separate Bardic Performance with the actual performance. So, Bardic Performance is a skill, once activated the use of any other perform skill used sequentially delivers the effect until the perform is deactivated...in the meantime, depending upon your perform, your character dances about like an emote, sings, plays an instrument, etc. These perform skills are all skills RPers and the like might want to take...even if they are not bards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I'm keen to play a witch/druid for character 1, and a paladin for character 2, implementing more of the core and base classes is obviously on my wish list.
I'd also be interested to see how clerical domains are going to work, notably Animal Domain which gives an Animal Companion at 4th in PnP. With the current absence of druid the Animal and Plant Domain cleric is obviously an option for me to look at.
All in time, I guess. Make sure the base game is working and then start dripping in the extras.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine not all domains/spells are going to be implemented right away, same as classes, but will be a major focus. Animal/Plant domain are probably going to be introduced with druid and ranger (I foresee a large "forest-kind" update for elves, fey, woodlandy types, lumber skills and the world, that includes the afore-mentioned things).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Druid and Ranger should have priority, methinks.I agree. Especially since I want to play a Druid.
You are more honest than I was. It is why I said what I did, however we should remember that it isn't so much these classes that are being built but their skills. We know for example that archery is already in the game: we've seen it in the videos. The problem skills requiring delay are the pet/metamorphic skills. I really don't see why, if it is going to take a very long time to gain access to high level skills that such 'class' archetypes should not be viable at OE. Just make the problem skills high level but, as in the druid (IF pathfinder imposes such) that as an example Druids already have to conform to armor and weapon-type limitations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the problem being that those are not high level skills, but low level ones. familiars/companions/metamorphic are all base, or near base, skills. I think somewhere Ryan said it could be possible to be level 6 in a day, 8 in a week, 12 in a month, 16 in a year, maxed in 2.5years (casts summon Nihimon I).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I sincerely doubt anyone will be level 6 in a day. I have heard reliable people disagree with my understanding that it will be five years before we hit L20, saying it will be half that, but L8 in a week and L16 in a single year sounds overly optimistic to me, unless you are a time-traveler.
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Goblin Squad Member
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indeed. this is why I summoned nihimon.
It is possible, however, if the time in this context is specifically targeting in-game time, or specific demographic of players who get up, play, go to school/work, come home, play until dinner, eat dinner, play on until he/she falls asleep. In this sense, I can see such event happening. It could be "possible" but at the same time "highly improbably". I'm sure someone can clear it up.
I am sure, however, max level for a skill tree is in ~2.5years