A campaign where full casters like Wizard, Druid, Cleric are not allowed; if you want to use magic you have to go with Bard, Inquisitor, Magus types.
From levels 1-5, 6-10, 11+, have you run games with these restrictions before? Or had games where noone showed up with a full caster?
How's the balance of PF society and adventure paths without full casters in the party?
*Monsters with sorceror spell progression and the like would still work as opposition, just nothing can take full caster CLASS levels.
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I've run games without full casters before. (Not a restriction, no one wanted to play one) in fact,one of my favorite parties is: Paladin, Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist.
As far as gameplay, before about level 8 no one even noticed the difference, and the difference didn't become significant until about level 12, where spontaneous casters are getting 6th level spells, and 3/4 casters are still stuck on 4th.
I've never played PFS before, but I have played the first two mags of RotRL, first three of KM, and the first mags of LoF and CC without full casters and without problems.
My group frequently ends up without arcane full casters, but typically has a cleric.
Last homebrew i ran had 4 martials, bard, cleric for levels 1-9. Early on, had some crowd control issues, but usually only had to eat one two rounds from any baddie before taking them apart messily. Lots of wands for the bard, and at some point (level 7ish) the two monks began investing heavily in potions of fly.
I've never banned them, but I do have a couple of groups that don't have one.
But they're low level (1st and just about 4th) so I haven't noticed anything yet.
Wait, I lied, the game where they're still level 1 has a Psion, which is close enough.
So, one group.
Just to be clear, in all my experiences we had at least two 3/4 casters. I'd probably recommend a 1/2 caster as well for good measure.
Utility is the biggest thing missed by not having a full caster, but a party of several 3/4 casters can make up for a lot of that, especially if you have a Bard or other character that can make good use of UMD.
I'm running RotR right now for a group with a magus, barbarian, rogue, and a vitalist (psionic healer). They are doing exceptionally well. They actually killed the giant army outside of jorginfist instead of finding an alternate route around. It took them 3 assaults, no one died, couldn't believe it. The guy playing the vitalist is really on his game. He makes extremely good use of swift actions for one, and puts a lot into his astral constructs as well. I guess none of this really matters since they are kinda like a cleric. Not really but comparable in their healing capabilities, when it comes to HP anyway. Still, no wizards or sorcs or psions
My first time running Pathfinder was bereft of full casters. Not by decree, but by player choice. The party was a Magus and a Bard. Great team, really.
The game ran until lv7 without any real issue. Would have gone longer, but we got more players and decided to begin a new story.
Incidentally the new party didn't have a full caster either, it was a summoner, an inquisitor, a rogue and a monk. No, the monk had no trouble pulling it's weight. The rogue on the other hand...
I'm playing in a campaign with a barbarian, monk, alchemist (me), and a cleric who really should be a warpriest given his play-style. We deal plenty of damage and have enough healing / buffs to get by, but we have virtually no CC or AoE damage. This has resulted in our fights lasting much longer than they ought to, especially when there are plenty of mooks running about. Another issue is the lack of ability to deal with arcane magic - our cleric has Dispel Magic, but he doesn't prepare it very often.
I'm going to "fix" these issues soon with bomb discoveries (Dispelling Bomb and Stink Bomb, for example). If we work with our GM it's not a debilitating issue, but I know we'd be much better off with an arcane full-caster in the mix.
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I currently play an inquisitor in our Carrion Crown campaign the only other caster is an oracle w/ the life mystery and we also have an alchemist. We're 8th level and beginning to feel the lack of an arcane caster. The oracle w/ the life mystery heals better than most clerics of equivalent level. IMHO the real challenge in groups lacking a full caster is access to certain benchmark spells at later levels than those of full casters. I feel that in published materials, where challenge ratings are balanced in part by the assumption of a standard four food group with full arcane/divine caster style party, access to benchmark spells increases the difficulty of many challenges; especially capstone encounters which tend to be CR +3 or better.
That said, it's fun to utilize our resources in different ways to overcome the challenges with a different utility belt. Encounters last longer, new spells, equipment and tactics are developed. Resources husbanded, terrain and stealth are used more prominently and wands and potions seem to have usefulness beyond the norm.
I still our parties lack of a full arcane caster will be an exceptionally difficult hurdle to overcome at the higher levels, but it will be fund finding out if I'm wrong.
The closest thing I have in the group I run is an alchemist. I can't send full casters at them without nearly killing the entire party.
Considering the 15 minute work day is quite the problem without full casters like a Cleric or Oracle, I'd be quite unhappy to ban them.
Plus fighting full casters without them is rough tamales.
I've played in games where there werent full casters. Generally though there were 3 or more 3/4 and 1/2 casters though. Usually if 2 or more partial casters cover a role (divine caster or arcane caster) then things work out just fine. Like having a magus and bard is good enough for adventure purposes if you dont have a wizard or sorceror. One by themselves is generally lacking certain important options because they wont choose all of them, same with divine casters. But the game certainly functions ok.
I've never had the opportunity to play a game without full casters. Every game had at least one oracle. And most had other full castzers as well.
I've run a party with only a cleric. Not a huge difference. Everything still dies very quickly. Not as much teleporting in an no full caster party.
Not as many save or suck spells. The group kills everything with hit point damage. Not as much party buffing.
I'm currently playing a game where I'm the only spellcaster period - the lineup is:
Rogue
Fighter
Soulblade
Ranger
and me, playing the ACG Arcanist.
At the moment I'm scrambling trying to cover a few too many different bases (AoE blasting, healing, buffing, crowd control etc) - it really doesn't help that we just made it to level 3 and the AP (Skull & Shackles) hasn't given us much of a chance to shop yet.
I can honestly say if the arcanist hadn't been in the party we would not have made it to level 3.
I have played many such games and haven't noticed much of a difference.
I have seen a group composed of all full Casters. It was a scary scary thing and just got more dangerous with every level.
Must have had a few druids or clerics built for melee. I'd like to see a group of cloth casters survive past the first four or five levels. That would be funny.
I have seen a group composed of all full Casters. It was a scary scary thing and just got more dangerous with every level.Must have had a few druids or clerics built for melee. I'd like to see a group of cloth casters survive past the first four or five levels. That would be funny.
All they've really gotta do is compliment on spell selection and make it to 3rd level and they're golden, my friend. Levels 1 and 2 are rocket (well, nerf) tag no matter what happens, but once you get to that threshold at 3rd level...
Well the terror begins and it just never ends.
A campaign where full casters like Wizard, Druid, Cleric are not allowed; if you want to use magic you have to go with Bard, Inquisitor, Magus types.
From levels 1-5, 6-10, 11+, have you run games with these restrictions before? Or had games where noone showed up with a full caster?
How's the balance of PF society and adventure paths without full casters in the party?
*Monsters with sorceror spell progression and the like would still work as opposition, just nothing can take full caster CLASS levels.
Our groups usually only have one full caster, though occasionally none, and its almost always a Sorcerer who specializes in a particular area (damage, enchantments, etc.). When we have none, we miss the cinematic effects of some of the more iconic spells like Lightning Bolt or Fireball, or the 'save or suck' option of a Dominate Person... but our parties are never hurting for damage dealers and at worst we have to get a little more creative with threats. Its definitely more of a challenge without full casters from a perspective of having more tools in your box, but with well-made Paladins and Barbarians, Bards and Summoners we usually do pretty well.
We've run through the following AP's, which are pretty much all we play:
Second Darkness
Human Arcane Duelist (Lore Warden dip)
Elven Void Mage
Half-Elven Summoner
Half-Elven Master Summoner
Skull n Shackles
Human Sea-Singer Bard (Lore Warden dip)
Human Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian (Unbreakable Fighter dip)
Human Knifemaster
Half-Elven Master Summoner
Rise of the Runelords
Human Arcane Duelist (Lore Warden dip)
Human Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian (Unbreakable Fighter dip)
Goblin Brawler (Master of Many Styles dip)
Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey Bloodline)
Reign of Winter (first book only)
Human Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian (Unbreakable Fighter dip)
Human Witch (Time)
Human Witch (Healing)
Human Witch (Enchantment)
Wrath of the Righteous (still playing, non-mythic)
Human Sorcerer (Draconic) / Dragon Disciple
Tiefling Paladin (Oath of Vengeance with an Oracle dip)
Aasimar Dervish of Dawn (Master of Many Styles dip)
Aasimar Dervish of Dawn (Master of Many Styles dip)
I have seen a group composed of all full Casters. It was a scary scary thing and just got more dangerous with every level.Must have had a few druids or clerics built for melee. I'd like to see a group of cloth casters survive past the first four or five levels. That would be funny.
I helped build the characters for al all-Sorcerer Rise of the Runelords campaign but I didn't play in it... two Human Dragon Disciples, a Kitsune Fey and a Dwarven (yes Dwarven) Sorcerer who focused on summoning, pit spells and acid/stone attacks. They broke up after the third book but it was going pretty well - just required a different playstyle is all.
At levels 1-3 all you need a few color sprays and sleep spells and you are good to go...
At levels 1-3 all you need a few color sprays and sleep spells and you are good to go...
Well, be fair - zombies and skeletons are a thing too. Gotta have some backup options for those.
At levels 1-3 all you need a few color sprays and sleep spells and you are good to go...Well, be fair - zombies and skeletons are a thing too. Gotta have some backup options for those.
They're called martials...
;-P
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At levels 1-3 all you need a few color sprays and sleep spells and you are good to go...Well, be fair - zombies and skeletons are a thing too. Gotta have some backup options for those.They're called martials...
;-P
Well let's not get crazy here. Two levels of theoretical problems is not a reason to give up an entire career's worth of a loot share.
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I have seen a group composed of all full Casters. It was a scary scary thing and just got more dangerous with every level.Must have had a few druids or clerics built for melee. I'd like to see a group of cloth casters survive past the first four or five levels. That would be funny.All they've really gotta do is compliment on spell selection and make it to 3rd level and they're golden, my friend. Levels 1 and 2 are rocket (well, nerf) tag no matter what happens, but once you get to that threshold at 3rd level...
Well the terror begins and it just never ends.
"These guys in robes with glowing badgers just came in and wrecked everything!"
-Surviving kobold guard
I'm in two games without a full caster. I'm running one with an alchemist and magus. I'm in one where my magus is the only spellcaster. At first, it wasn't a problem, but when we started dealing with things that can curse us, deal ability drain, and bestow negative levels, it became a bit of a problem. The biggest issue is that if any obstacle requires magical expertise, only one guy has an answer to it while the others sit there and twiddle their thumbs. When I ran From Shore to Sea, the gunslinger played Hearthstone while the magus and alchemist tried to solve the mystery.
In the game im running now we have opposite, all casters 4 of them wizard, cleric, witch and druid. While they arnt having any trouble with battle field control and just locking everyone down(Wizard likes his pits) combat takes ages and you can see there is problems when the party goes one way or another and doesn't have a mixed group.
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I have GM'd Rise of the Runelords where the the party didn't have full casters until level 7. After which they nearly TPK'd and rerolled with with a Cleric and a Wizard (Diviner).
Similarly, I'm currently playing in Shattered Star and we haven't had a full caster until level 9. When our Summoner (me) had an identity crisis and came back as a Wizard (Enchanter).
In both situations the games were rough before full casters. The party didn't have any good ways to deal with situations beyond what the martials had specialized in. The party had major versatility problems and had difficulty adapting to new challenges. Swarms were the BANE of the parties' existences.
After adding full casters to the party (especially those of the Arcane persuasion) it was like we were playing a whole different game. Suddenly the PCs had the option of bypassing whole encounters. They gained the ability to control the battlefield so well that incredibly challenging encounters turned into cakewalks.
Full casters give the party more OPTIONS. Which, in my opinion, makes the game more fun.
It happens fairly often that no one brings a full caster to the celebration.
The only time it has been an issue is with some of the older modules. Some of them will make assumptions like "The party is 6th level so someone will be able to cast fly" or "The cleric probably has create water" which may not be true.
Yep in the first game we got our arse handed to us on a plate
The second game where still playing and are doing ok but its early days
I ran Second Darkness for a party of fighter, monk, bard, and rogue/ranger. As long as I made sure to provide extra wands/potions for healing as part of loot along the way, they did fine until about level 10ish. After that, I had to fudge heavily and switch out encounters because the adventure assumed they had access to arcane and divine spells that weren't even on their radar.
If you're running a homebrew adventure, it's absolutely doable as long as you keep your parties capabilities in mind while designing encounters. An AP would be extremely difficult to run as written, without providing reliable NPC support to fill in the gaps of what the party's capabilities are assumed to be.
At home I've mostly had the problem of nothing but full casters while at PFS I've had the problem of no full casters.
Both were very terrible situations. In the case of nothing but full casters 1 group of monks or barbarians will ruin an entire session.
In the case of no full casters, there isn't that much of a difference (due to 2/3 casters) until ability damange/drain and negative levels becomes a thing. The worst though is when you have no casters. Non-casters are so vulnerable to strange effects.
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I find games without casters go one of two ways. You will eventually run into an obstacle designed to be bypassed by magic (at least in any published content). Either 1, players get frustrated, you fail, someone dies and rerolls a caster. Or 2, players get creative figuring out alternate solutions and end up having a lot of fun.
Full caster parties can also be entertaining, but they don't run into those creative solution moments as often. Rarely is any obstacle designed that can't be defeated with magic. Undead immune to your mind affecting? Oh but theres the sorc bloodline, or thenoptic spellcasting. Golem SR, just chuck snowballs. Theoretically there could be some anti-magic field shenanigans, but I've never actually run into that in any published content. And since beholders don't exist in pathfinder, that's out too.
As someone who has been there done that with plenty of standard, balanced parties, I find the oddball unbalanced are usually more fun.
I'm GMing a game with an alchemist, gunslinger, and inquisitor. So far, so good, but they're only 2nd level. The next BBEG will be a spellchucker, but also a melee tripper. With adept/warrior mooks. Should be...interesting.
I'm also playing in a game with a Dark Tapestry oracle, my half-orc inquisitor of Desna, and a fighter, sometimes a psion. Also 2 or 3 henchmen warriors (it's a 15 point, gritty, Old School D&D-type campaign). Healing is definitely an issue. No wands yet, but we just turned 2nd level--after having to do a rewind after a TPK vs. a white wyrmling.
Our Kingmaker campaign has my dwarf barbarian/magus, an archer ranger, a rogue/witch, and a cavalier/fighter with a cleric cohort. We do pretty well. Used lots of wands before the King got a cohort.
Both were very terrible situations. In the case of nothing but full casters 1 group of monks or barbarians will ruin an entire session.At low level maybe, at mid to high level very much not.
Maybe because my players are less strategic but I had a few situations where I GMed an all caster party and one of those almost resulted in a TPK;
1. I wanted to make a really cool villain duo where a dumb brute was paired with a smart, small, weak guy. I made a Barbarian with all his mental stats at 8 and a Wizard with all his physical stats at 8. Both were a level higher than the party of four level 8 casters. I decided that the Wizard was too much and just introduced the Barbarian. The Result; He plowed through the black tentacles they cast and started one shotting the casters while making all his will and fortitude saves against them. They finally blinded him but he'd nearly killed them all already so I ignored his Blindfight feats and caused him to charge towards someone and topple off a nearby cliff when he missed.
2. I made two tetori monks who were german strongmen to be henchman against a party of casters. The party was lvl 7, the monks were lvl 8 and were grapple beasts. First thing they did was grab the arcane casters after making their saves against what they cast, the caster's were KOed in one round. They went for the divine casters who decided to go melee against them but couldn't handle being grabbed either so got helpless really quick.
3. Made a group of monks against a group of Oracle/Paladin/Wizard/Sorcerer. If the Paladin wasn't there they would have all gotten grabbed and one shotted.
TL;DR: If their saves are good enough to get past the first round spells Barbarians and Monks can easily just grab a caster and render them useless unless a martial can stop them.
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Both were very terrible situations. In the case of nothing but full casters 1 group of monks or barbarians will ruin an entire session.At low level maybe, at mid to high level very much not.Maybe because my players are less strategic but I had a few situations where I GMed an all caster party and one of those almost resulted in a TPK;
1. I wanted to make a really cool villain duo where a dumb brute was paired with a smart, small, weak guy. I made a Barbarian with all his mental stats at 8 and a Wizard with all his physical stats at 8. Both were a level higher than the party of four level 8 casters. I decided that the Wizard was too much and just introduced the Barbarian. The Result; He plowed through the black tentacles they cast and started one shotting the casters while making all his will and fortitude saves against them. They finally blinded him but he'd nearly killed them all already so I ignored his Blindfight feats and caused him to charge towards someone and topple off a nearby cliff when he missed.
2. I made two tetori monks who were german strongmen to be henchman against a party of casters. The party was lvl 7, the monks were lvl 8 and were grapple beasts. First thing they did was grab the arcane casters after making their saves against what they cast, the caster's were KOed in one round. They went for the divine casters who decided to go melee against them but couldn't handle being grabbed either so got helpless really quick.
3. Made a group of monks against a group of Oracle/Paladin/Wizard/Sorcerer. If the Paladin wasn't there they would have all gotten grabbed and one shotted.
TL;DR: If their saves are good enough to get past the first round spells Barbarians and Monks can easily just grab a caster and render them useless unless a martial can stop them.
To be fair, grapples wreck most players, unless they are also specced out for grappling. Casters usually have a better time against grapplers than mellees do in my experience. Freedom of movement, teleportation, flying, invis, etc to get away and stay away. Esp at high levels when CMD gets impossibly high to break out of, Non casters just get screwed.
And two, if a 10th level barbarian one shots an 8th level wizard, that should be a great wake up call to the wizard player that he should maybe come up with better plans to be ready to deal with such problems in the future. As well as spending more money on his belt of constitution.
Most players I've had do okay with casters but aren't exactly crunch savants so your mileage may vary. But they cant prepare against everything so I guess they just don't prepare for it.
For a long while my current Kingmaker party consisted of a Paladin, Fighter (+ Inquisitor cohort), Barbarian, Bard, Monk, and Gunslinger.
We were doing alright up through level 10 but sorely lacked for ways of dealing with disease or item crafting. I think the lack of item crafting was hurting more than anything, but we had a couple close calls with disease (and one short-lived party member, a Rogue, died messily of disease, a first for our playgroup over some 10 years). We are also lacking badly for Knowledge skills (the bard is an archetype without Bardic Knowledge).
On the other hand, our front line is so heavily stacked that nearly everything dies as soon as we are able to charge. A lot of combats have actually been pretty boring as a result.
It's an extreme contrast to our last game where everyone was a full or spontaneous caster (two Sorcerers, Magus, Cleric/Wizard (Mystic Theurge), Wizard, Bard).
I have seen a group composed of all full Casters. It was a scary scary thing and just got more dangerous with every level.Must have had a few druids or clerics built for melee. I'd like to see a group of cloth casters survive past the first four or five levels. That would be funny.All they've really gotta do is compliment on spell selection and make it to 3rd level and they're golden, my friend. Levels 1 and 2 are rocket (well, nerf) tag no matter what happens, but once you get to that threshold at 3rd level...
Well the terror begins and it just never ends.
It ends. No way they keep everything at a distance all levels. They can't take hits. I'd kill a party of casters very easily until they were much higher level.
Lots of stuff immune to low level spells. A few tough creatures make their saves and bring the hammer, done time for the casters.
Clerics, Druids, Oracles, etc. can all take hits pretty well, and are still full casters.
My Oracle actually has more HP than the Antipaladin right now in our WotW game.
Though he cheats because he's been getting to add Cha to HP for the last 4 levels.
A campaign where full casters like Wizard, Druid, Cleric are not allowed; if you want to use magic you have to go with Bard, Inquisitor, Magus types.
From levels 1-5, 6-10, 11+, have you run games with these restrictions before? Or had games where noone showed up with a full caster?
How's the balance of PF society and adventure paths without full casters in the party?
*Monsters with sorceror spell progression and the like would still work as opposition, just nothing can take full caster CLASS levels.
It really depends on the players, but for the most part it will be noticed, however the game does not become unplayable.