Combat and Crafting Viability for One Character?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

I've read that a subscription lets you train one character (not counting DT for KS backers) for a whole month, or multiple characters for shorter amounts of time (e.g. 2 characters for 2 weeks each). I also understand that you won't "waste" any skills trained, as the dedication bonus applies as long as you slot only abilities from one archetype.

But I'm wondering how viable, if at all, it will be to make a character who has highly-developed combat skills as well as highly-developed crafting skills? It doesn't seem that there is anything preventing a single character from doing both, only that it would take that much more XP and time to do so.

Has there been any official word on the XP and time involved in having a dual-role combat and crafting character?

Goblin Squad Member

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I think you have the right of it...it just takes longer to learn. I think a better question would concern the viability of a settlement with high level combat training and high level crafting training.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

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Nothing I'm aware of. A 'class' should take ~2.5 years to fully train. There will some overlap between classes (hp, will, reflex, etc.) so the 2nd class should be somewhat faster. How much faster is unclear and probably depends upon the classes. (Fighters have more in common with barbarians than fighters have in common with wizards.)

Overlap between combat and non-combat classes has never been stated afaik. I'd expect it to be fairly minimal though. So - assuming non combat classes take as long to fully train as combat classes - it'd probably be in the range of ~5 years to fully train something like Fighter/Expert. Maybe ~4.5 if there's some minimal overlap. Too early to say if those guesses are even remotely close.

However, one important thing is that the further up you get in power in a class the longer it'll take to gain the next 'level'. Whether this is geometric, arithmetic, logarithmic, or some other form of progression has not been stated. So you might be ~16th level combat character after a year or so. Then spend a year to get to ~16th level in a noncombat class. In those 2 years someone else has gotten to ~19th level in a combat class, but have nothing in a noncombat class. (Numbers are obviously subject to change.) All depends on what you consider to be "highly developed" and how much you want versatility vs power. It's not too different than EVE: you can train a number of skills from 1 to 4 in the time it takes to train a single skill from 4 to 5.

Goblin Squad Member

Five years I think it was for a dedicated archetype to reach the equivalent of L20 in tabletop. Any training poured into crafting would extend that time. Whether there might be a ratio where crafting skill point are less expensive has not been hinted at to the best of my knowledge.

Goblin Squad Member

@Being

No I believe Nightdrifter was right. they said ~2.5 to get maxed in a class

Goblin Squad Member

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I suspect that they are treating commoner, crafter, and aristocrats as roles just as cleric, rogue, warrior, and wizard. Mixing rolls might lead to loss of dedication bonus.

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:
I suspect that they are treating commoner, crafter, and aristocrats as roles just as cleric, rogue, warrior, and wizard. Mixing rolls might lead to loss of dedication bonus.

This may be true, but you may not have to wait very long to switch from one role to another.

Example: I could be a Ranger / Barbarian / Swordsmith

I could have slotted a mix of RNG / BARB for adventuring

I could go for dedication bonus of either class RNG or BARB for PVP

I could then switch over when not adventuring or PVPing and spend some time crafting w/ dedication bonus as well.

The big question is, how long does it take to unslot and slot skills?

I also understand that the above example may take as much as 5 years or more to have mastered all three. I however look at PFO as a game I will be playing for many years if not for more than a decade.

Goblin Squad Member

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I love the idea that it will take years to master any role. One thing I always hated when I played DDO was reaching level cap easily then having to wait a few months for them to raise the level cap.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan has repeated stated that the power curve for characters will be relatively flat and that after a few months of play a newbie character will still be effective in a fight against an older character (especially in groups). If this is true it may not be too hard to train combat skills to a point where you're an asset in a group fight, while not being at the cutting edge.

This should mean that if you choose to train crafting skills it may not make your character useless to your group. Actually having some crafting ability could be a big draw card as your group will likely benefit from this arrangement, and be more than understanding due to the benefits that your multi-skilled character brings to the group.

Thats my take on things, anyway.

Goblin Squad Member

Further, some crafting skills may bestow benefit in combat, like a buff. Might not, too, but I could see someone who hammers at the forge growing more skilled at wielding a mace.

Goblin Squad Member

Alzaric wrote:
t doesn't seem that there is anything preventing a single character from doing both, only that it would take that much more XP and time to do so.

Combat is going to be needed by most players to help out and to defend so that's always going to be useful to get out of T1.

I guess at the beginning with a smaller player base, training anything will prove useful.

As more players join, the economy grows and crafting becomes more complex, the question will answer itself by then?

Goblin Squad Member

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Being wrote:
Further, some crafting skills may bestow benefit in combat, like a buff. Might not, too, but I could see someone who hammers at the forge growing more skilled at wielding a mace.

I think we've been told that both crafting and combat skill trees will have skills that boost stats. Some crafting skill choices might boost boost critical stats which open options in combat skill trees; and the reverse may also be true.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ravening wrote:
Ryan has repeated stated that the power curve for characters will be relatively flat and that after a few months of play a newbie character will still be effective in a fight against an older character (especially in groups).

This is accurate, but I think it's important to expand on.

The "relatively flat" power curve is relative to other MMOs. An Old Vet with lots of Skills and completely outfitted in Tier 3 gear will not be "invincible" the way a level 85 character in WoW is literally invincible to an infinite number of level 5 characters. However, that Old Vet will still be a force to be reckoned with, and will be a significant challenge even for a (smallish) group of mid-level Heroic Adventurers with decent Skill training and Tier 2 gear.

See Ryan Dancey (Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict) for details.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for all of the responses, everyone! I guess we'll just have to wait until we get closer to EE for some actual skill/ability information to come out.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Nightdrifter's math is basically accurate to the best of my knowledge. However, you could probably shorten it considerably if you planned in advance, favoring craft skills as your discretionary source for ability score increases. For example, if you need Strength 16 to get your next level of required feats for the next level of Fighter, and you only have 15 after all the feats that were required for your last level, you can buy a bunch of Strength-based craft skills to raise your Strength up, and then you'll already have them when you start buying the rest of the requirements for Expert. That is, do that instead of buying non-required Strength-based attacks and such.

We will try to make the best perks of Experts require you to slot and keep slotted Expert feats while you're crafting. So you can't necessarily start crafting at the power of a level 20 Expert and then go out and adventure at the power of a level 20 Fighter, any more than you could simultaneously have all the powers of a level 20 Fighter and level 20 Wizard. But you can probably do things like slot Expert to start queues before you log off, and finish them when you log back in then slot Fighter to adventure, creating good synergy between the roles (while still being slightly behind a dedicated crafter that can run queues at max efficiency while logged in too).

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you so much for the response, Stephen! It's wonderful to get a little insight into how we're going to have to go about building our characters when we're finally allowed to start running around in-game.

I haven't yet decided exactly what type of character I want to create, but it's nice to know that I will realistically be able to do both combat and crafting on one character, given enough XP and time. :) I actually agree with the idea that you can't just immediately jump from crafting to combat while trying to craft quality items (not without suffering some kind of penalty).

But I'm wondering, is there a time delay for switching between slotted abilities? Or is it just a matter of switching out the weapon/tool? I would hate to think that someone couldn't fairly quickly come to his or her settlement's aid if it comes under attack, simply because he or she was in the middle of crafting, even if that means that the current work order/batch is damaged or destroyed in the process.

Thanks again for the reply!

Goblin Squad Member

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I really hope we get access to the various skill tree options before the game goes live. That would enable us to put some serious planning time and thought into our character creation and progression. I know it's been mentioned before but a character generator system would really help. If Goblinworks made the skill tree data files available I'm sure someone would cook up something spiffy.

Goblin Squad Member

Ravening wrote:
I really hope we get access to the various skill tree options before the game goes live. That would enable us to put some serious planning time and thought into our character creation and progression. I know it's been mentioned before but a character generator system would really help. If Goblinworks made the skill tree data files available I'm sure someone would cook up something spiffy.

I'm hopeful that most of the knowledge we gain in Alpha will still be applicable to Early Enrollment.

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