Some rules questions from Beginner Box


Beginner Box


Hi,

I recently got into Pathfinder to start up a zombie apocalypse campaign with a few friends, and so far it's a blast!

I have a few technical questions about the BB rules:
a) Is there some good rule of thumb for figuring out which spaces fall within a burst, cone, line of a given measure? The diagrams on p. 92 of the GM's guide don't quite make sense to me.
b) Can the wizard use feats like Point Blank Shot with the ray of frost, scorching ray, etc? Also, could the wizard use INT instead of dEX for the ray's attack roll (maybe as a separate feat)?
c) To try to balance out the players, I equalized all the skills bonuses. One player's high skill is Charisma... what is a good way to utilize that effectively in the game? I'm thinking e.g. being able to recruit people to get into a zombie fight with you most easily?
d) do the combat feats stack? E.g. can a fighter charge, do a power attack, and cleave all at the same time, perhaps also while using Combat Expertise? ;)

Thanks!

Grand Lodge

a) Is a little hard for me to explain since when I look at the pictures, they make sense to me :) The grey boxes in the pictures are considered to 'fall within' the shapes they represent. Casting burning hands, for example, is a 15' cone in some crude ASCII art:

<padded lines>
<padded lines>
<padded lines>
<padded lines>

.....
..X..
..XX.
..XXX
.Y...

.....
.XXX.
.XXX.
..X..
..Y..

. = empty square
X = burning hands
Y = You - caster

Hopefully this is helpful and not just atrocious.

b) Point-Blank Shot would apply to ray attacks inside 30', yes. I don't believe there is currently anything like weapon finesses but for Intelligence. It doesn't mean that you couldn't do it, of course. In fact, weapon finesses is probably a great template to follow to make it happen if that's what you want in your game. Though my own two cents is that it's a good idea for a wizard to have a high dex as well since they don't get much in the way of armor protection and it helps them go faster in the initiative order.

c) This is a bit tougher, honestly. Cha is generally a little under represented in the Beginner Box material. Each class has their own strengths and weaknesses. In a Zombie Apocalypse campaign, I can't see Cha being all that useful. Zombie's don't want to talk (Diplomacy)and you can't really try to smooth talk your way past them (Bluff). A secondary use for Diplomacy is to Gather Information, but again it kind of implies a social aspect which may or may not be present in a Zombie survival game. You might be doing your player a service by encouraging them to switch Cha with a more 'useful' attribute for this campaign. Though in your example, Diplomacy would be a way to go to recruit people to help you fight off zombies.

d) Some do and some do not. In your example the only thing which is not valid is any or all of those combos is Cleave. Charge is a full round (standard plus move) which lets you move 2x your speed and make an attack afterward. Power attack and Combat Expertise are essentially free actions which modify what's going on. Cleave is a standard action you use in place of your normal standard action, thus on a Charge you do not have that standard action to spend as you've already spent it for the Charge.

Hope this helps, if not ask more questions and I'll see what I can do :)


Thanks, that's very useful!

Just to clarify re: a) - The diagrams certainly make enough sense to me as far as applying the covered spaces to our game according to the type of attack and its range; I guess what I'm not so clear on is how to calculate the range of a given AoE attack in any particular direction. For lines and cones, it seems I should start with a square adjacent to the caster, and count that as the first 5-foot "step" of the spell's range? So that with a 15-foot range, a cone or line can go through the three squares directly in front (horizontally or vertically) of the caster, or alternately begin with a square diagonal to the caster, and then hit one other square diagonal to that (using the convention that when moving diagonally, the first step counts as 5 feet, but the second counts as 10). But for bursts, I should pick a corner of a square, rather than the square itself, and count out the range/radius in 5-foot increments from that corner? Sorry, I know it's a bit technical and maybe not that important in a real game, but I like to find the consistency in rules whenever I can. :)

Also, maybe I can get your opinion about XP values... If I wanted to add the Disease (zombie rot) special ability to the standard zombie (so it would be like a plague zombie, but without death burst, and retaining damage reduction), would you say that is still CR 1/2, or more? If I made the disease worse than the usual zombie rot (say ghoul fever), and made the damage reduction 5/magic instead of 5/slashing, would that warrant CR 1? I'm trying to construct a standard zombie as per my players' preferences, which is for slow/stupid/pretty tough/pretty diseased zombies. :D

Grand Lodge

I think you about have the right of it on the lines and cones etc. The ranges should follow the same 5/10/5 cost for diagonals. For a burst you pick an intersection, and then go that many feet in each direction. For example on page 92 the 10 burst is 2 squares in each cardinal direction from the intersection (center).

The zombie, well, that's getting into some serious black magic. Especially since 'zombie' is actually a template that you apply to a base creature. All of this stuff is well beyond the scope of the Beginner Box, but it sounds like you've already been looking at the PRD information on Zombies from the Bestiary. There aren't really hard and fast rules on how many special abilities or defensive abilities you can/should add at which CR. Under the monster creation rules there are CR vs. DC of primary abilities though so a DC 11 plague is in keeping with a CR 1/2 but a DC 14 plague would be more in line with a CR 3 creature (for example). DR 5/magic against lower level characters is going to be quite a challenge, but you initial instinct of CR 1 is a good starting point. If the players are magic poor you probably want to just leave the hit points alone since each hit will be doing 5 less damage...boosting the hit points on top of that is just mean ;)


I'd say if you just add the disease and it is a low DC, it isn't really a CR increase. The DR/magic though, that's definitely a bump in CR because it will make it much harder to kill, which means it is more of a challenge.

The other way to think about it is that the monster CR is a way to set XP and XP is a way to reward players for overcoming an encounter, not specifically for killing monsters. So the 'right' way to do it is to say you want the encounter to be a certain difficulty, which gives you an XP budget. Then you spend the budget on monsters, traps, difficult environments, puzzles, whatever.

So you could just add an extra bit of xp to the encounter's reward for defeating the diseased zombies, rather than fully bumping up the CR. The same goes if you want to add fog that makes it hard to see or if you want to the zombies to keep coming back to life until the players destroy the weird glowing blue statue in the back of the room. Those don't have a way to increase an individual monster's CR, but they do affect the encounter's total challenge, thus the XP reward.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Mark Garringer wrote:

b) Point-Blank Shot would apply to ray attacks inside 30', yes.

Are you sure about that? The description of PBS (from the PRD) says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." A spell is not a weapon, afaics.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You can get plastic grids for this purpose. I believe they sell them on this site or at your local friendly games store.

Grand Lodge

Ed Reppert wrote:
Are you sure about that? The description of PBS (from the PRD) says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." A spell is not a weapon, afaics.

I am sure, yes. Also there is an FAQ entry from Sean which confirms it. :) A ray attack is a treated as a weapon.

Dark Archive

Mark Garringer wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
Are you sure about that? The description of PBS (from the PRD) says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." A spell is not a weapon, afaics.
I am sure, yes. Also there is an FAQ entry from Sean which confirms it. :) A ray attack is a treated as a weapon.

I am also sure of it.

Out of curiosity, however, I had a look through the Core Rule Book to see if I could see it spellt out anywhere, and I couldn't find it, although there are places where it is implied.

Weapon Focus, in particular, seems to go out of its way to ensure it could be argued either way.

Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

The second sentence is either clarifying that rays are a type of weapon, or just allowing you to treat rays as weapons for the purpose of this feat only.

The description of rays makes it seem like they are NOT ranged weapons, they just behave exactly as if they were!

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you’re aiming.

In 3.5 I seem to remember that Complete Arcane made it clear that you could take "weapon" feats with rays.

However, this is Pathfinder. The general rule of thumb is that anything that makes fighters better can also make wizards better, but not vice versa.


Thanks for the input, everyone!

One further solicitation of opinions about the zombies. As could be expected, my players have decided to aim for the head as per the common "destroy the zombie's brain" paradigm. Based partly on a rules supplement, I give a -4 penalty when they try to do a headshot, and if they hit, I negate the DR if they used an attack that would otherwise be subject to it. When they make a successful headshot with magic or a slashing weapon, however, I award an automatic critical threat. Does that sound reasonable? Not sure if that makes the zombies significantly easier to kill so as to warrant a lower XP award...

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

If you let players headshot zombies, they're going to wonder why they can't headshot living creatures. It's best to avoid that sort of "hit location" mechanic in this (abstract) game. Critical hits are the way Pathfinder handles increased damage in just the right spot.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Mark Garringer wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
Are you sure about that? The description of PBS (from the PRD) says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." A spell is not a weapon, afaics.
I am sure, yes. Also there is an FAQ entry from Sean which confirms it. :) A ray attack is a treated as a weapon.

Got it! Thanks for the link.


Thanks, Sean, that makes sense and also simplifies things, so I think I'll take your advice. :)

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