Help me build the knockout king.

[Unruly]

So I've had an idea for a character that's built around nonlethal damage in melee combat. I know it isn't an original idea by any means, and I know that certain feats really lend themselves to it. For instance, Bludgeoner, Sap Adept, and Sap Master. Of course, the latter two require sneak attack damage, so that means rogue, ninja, or vivisectionist, at least until the ACG comes out.

My basic idea has been human scout/thug, with the following in-progress progression.
1: Bludgeoner and Sap Adept
2: Offensive Defense talent
3: Improved Initiative
4: Slow Reactions talent
5: Sap Master
6: Ninja Trick(Pressure Points)
7: Weapon Training talent

Beyond that I start to lose any idea on where to go, but I know I have to stick with Rogue until at least level 8 so that I can get the Skirmisher ability and use my sneak attack as frequently as possible.

I was thinking of aiming for Spring Attack, but I don't know how well it will work.

Looking for any advice on how to really max out my non-lethal damage. Being able to use sneak attack as frequently as possible is a big plus as well.

[blackbloodtroll]

Is the focus only to deal Nonlethal, or is Intimidate a key part?

Either way, there are a lot better options than Rogue.

[Unruly]

Intimidate isn't a key part, no. I went Thug for Brutal Beating. My idea was to maximize sneak attack opportunities and non-lethal damage, while also inflicting other debuffs on the target. Which is why I have Slow Reactions and Pressure Points on there.

[blackbloodtroll]

Actually, you could just be a Greatsword wielding Barbarian with the Blade of Mercy trait.

Nonlethal. More damage.

[DM Under The Bridge]

Work the jab.

Good ideas so far unruly.

[prototype00]

I collect my thoughts on the subject here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mtx4?The-Pimp-Hand-and-its-applications#1

Perhaps some of them might be useful to you?

prototype00

[Unruly]

Part of the reason I chose Rogue was because I want to be a skill monkey for non-combat situations without having to boost Int by a ton.

The overall concept that I'm going for is a thief who refuses to kill, and he's honed his skills at subdual to compensate. Somewhat like the anime version of Lupin III, with a bit more of the gentlemanly trappings of his namesake. I know that RP stylings don't tie you into any single class, but being a Barbarian that flies into a rage in combat doesn't exactly lend itself to what I'm aiming for.

Prototype, I'm reading your thread now and I like it. Did you make a thread in the rules section to see how Sap Adept/Master and the Scout's Charge ability work together? It seems there's a little contention over that.

[prototype00]

The only person who seemed to think that it didn't work showed up in the thread (I can't recall if I made a rules subforum post). If they are considered flat footed against you then all the stuff that they can do when they are flat footed applies. Its not like there isn't a tradeoff here (one big attack, versus several with Sneak attack).

prototype00

[blackbloodtroll]

Inquisitor or Bard make better skill monkeys, and deal more damage.

All whilst still being fully capable of dealing nonlethal.

Archeologist Bard makes a great Arsène Lupin III.

Very fitting.

[Unruly]

I don't really see where the Bard gets better damage than the Rogue, since Bard spells don't tend do damage and they're on just about equal footing otherwise. Archaeologist has some good class abilities that would be very fitting though.

Inquisitor, yea, it's got bane, judgements, and spells, but then I also have to be at least somewhat religious which changes the RP. It would be a nice 2-level dip for Cunning Initiative and Stern Gaze, as well as shoring up my saves, but there's still that religion bit that makes me hesitant. I just wouldn't feel right playing a character that is mechanically built around being part of a church but then completely sweeping that bit under the rug and ignoring it. Seems like a good way to lose your powers.

I know sneak attack isn't something to be relied on, but Sap Adept and Sap Master are kind of central to what I had in mind, since they greatly increase non-lethal damage output for the Rogue. Especially if they work with Scout's Charge and Skirmisher, which is something I'll have to look into more. Same thing with Knockout Artist, since it's worded differently and may not work with Scout's Charge as well now that I look closer.

But anyway, at level 5 you use Scout's Charge to close in on a target, hit them for, say, 1d6+6d6+6 non-lethal at minimum(averaging about 33-ish), you gain an extra +6 Dodge bonus to AC, and you also deny them the ability to make AoO's for a round because of Slow Reactions. That's half of most CR5 creature's HP in a single hit. At level 8 you just have to move 10ft(not charge) and it's 1d6+8d6+8, you gain +8 Dodge AC, they can't take AoO's for a round, and you deal 1 point of Str or Dex damage. At any time past level 3 you can sacrifice one die of sneak attack damage(and thus 1 point of Dodge AC as well) to make the target sickened for at least 1 round. I really don't think that's too shabby overall.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, instead of a skill monkey, focused on doing nonlethal, being your focus, you are focused on a certain combo of feats and class.

Instead, why don't you just make a list of the things you would like to do.

Then, we can try to find the mechanics, that meet your concept.

Beware! The end result may not any of those feats, or any Rogue levels!

It sort of depends on what is more important to you.

Writing "Rogue" on the top of your sheet, or having the numbers meet the original concept.

[blackbloodtroll]

Archaeologist Bard with the Fate's Favored trait is strong.

Upping the +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls by +1.

You will already be proficient with the Whip and Sap, so nonlethal isn't an issue.

You can nab Arcane Strike to up damage as well.

You could even go Dex based, and nab an Agile Whip, or Sap.

With the Whip, you could go with the Whip Mastery feats.

Let's not forget your ability to pump yourself.

Also, when you can't use nonlethal, such as on a creature immune to it, you are not crippled.

[Unruly]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, instead of a skill monkey, focused on doing nonlethal, being your focus, you are focused on a certain combo of feats and class.

To a point, yes. One of my goals is that I'd like to see just how far I could take a Rogue with those feats.

But I also see where you're going with trying to direct me elsewhere. Barbarian and Inquisitor don't fit for RP reasons, but Bard, especially Archaeologist, can fit very well. I just don't personally see Bards as melee characters, and the only build that I know of that works for that on a decent level is the Dervish Dancer, and I don't want that. Other than that I just see them as support casters, which is something they really excel at.

To make a list of things that I want the character to be, I guess I'd start with this -

Non-lethal damage as primary against living targets.

Skill monkey.

Being able to debuff or otherwise adversely affect the enemy on a hit fairly frequently.

Preferably melee-oriented.

No relying on deities.

No rage.

And like I said, I can see the Bard fitting in. I just wouldn't even know where to begin with trying to emphasize non-lethal damage on one, while that's something that the Rogue has specific feats for. Which is why I've been leaning so heavily on the Rogue as the basis for this.

[blackbloodtroll]

You do know you can be an Inquisitor of an ideal?

No deity.
Also, the Heretic Inquisitor, which means you basically pay lip service to a deity, but have your own way of looking at things.

There is also the Urban Barbarian, with Controlled Rage, which is easily reflavored.

[prototype00]

Not that I'm saying that any of your ideas are bad, BBT, but what is wrong with the scout/thug rogue? It is quite well recognized as one of the best nonlethal damage/debuffing (both sickened, shakened and frightened in the same attack?) builds.

Granted against nonlethal immune foes, you only have your regular rogue abilities to use, but that is a conscious choice the OP is making by choosing to emphasize nonlethal damage.

I know the board consensus is that "monks and rogues suck", but what most people forget is the "without system mastery" part.

prototype00

[Daenar]

Unruly wrote:

So I've had an idea for a character that's built around nonlethal damage in melee combat. I know it isn't an original idea by any means, and I know that certain feats really lend themselves to it. For instance, Bludgeoner, Sap Adept, and Sap Master. Of course, the latter two require sneak attack damage, so that means rogue, ninja, or vivisectionist, at least until the ACG comes out.

My basic idea has been human scout/thug, with the following in-progress progression.
1: Bludgeoner and Sap Adept
2: Offensive Defense talent
3: Improved Initiative
4: Slow Reactions talent
5: Sap Master
6: Ninja Trick(Pressure Points)
7: Weapon Training talent

Beyond that I start to lose any idea on where to go, but I know I have to stick with Rogue until at least level 8 so that I can get the Skirmisher ability and use my sneak attack as frequently as possible.

I was thinking of aiming for Spring Attack, but I don't know how well it will work.

Looking for any advice on how to really max out my non-lethal damage. Being able to use sneak attack as frequently as possible is a big plus as well.

guide to guides had a half orc with eartbreaker non lethal build, seemed kewl .

[blackbloodtroll]

prototype00 wrote:

Not that I'm saying that any of your ideas are bad, BBT, but what is wrong with the scout/thug rogue? It is quite well recognized as one of the best nonlethal damage/debuffing (both sickened, shakened and frightened in the same attack?) builds.

Granted against nonlethal immune foes, you only have your regular rogue abilities to use, but that is a conscious choice the OP is making by choosing to emphasize nonlethal damage.

I know the board consensus is that "monks and rogues suck", but what most people forget is the "without system mastery" part.

prototype00

It's the example he gave, as the concept. It doesn't quite meet the combo of feats and abilities he gave.

Also, the very specific feat/class ability combo seems to be the concept, and everything else is just unrelated.

If it was just advice wanted on this very specific feat/class ability combo, then he should have just been straight up about it.

Also, Class names do not define you.

You could be a Lawful Good Longsword/Shield wielding fighter of justice, in Fullplate, but only have levels in Rogue.

You could even be known as a Paladin. Your Sneak Attack is how you "Smite" your enemies.

This revelation has soiled some drawers before, but I swear to you, it is true.

You could also be a suave, skillful, sneaky, ruffian, without a single level in Rogue.

[Unruly]

BBT, I value your input. I've used some of your advice in other areas more than once, and I was just reading through your big hitter thread earlier this morning/last night.

That said, I'm not trying to build an exact duplicate of Arsene Lupin III. I said I want him to be somewhat similar. Which basically boils down to a generic gentleman thief, though one who's not exactly the classic gentleman, who focuses on nonlethal subduals. One is a roleplaying decision that can be helped along by the choice of class but is primarily driven by player interactions, while the other is an almost entirely mechanical aspect of the character that is strongly influenced by the character's class. I don't see what's dissonant about that as a concept and what I've done for the build so far.

Rogues and Bards both have a lot of skills that come in handy for a gentleman thief, though Bards do lack Disable Device. The Archaeologist archetype makes up for that, though. In fact, Archaeologist is better than mixing Scout/Thug in that regard, since Scout/Thug removes Trapfinding and Trap Sense from the Rogue, while Archaeologist has Trap Sense and gains the equivalent to Trapfinding by level 6.

However, and this is what I think is key, I don't see a way for the Bard to really emphasize nonlethal damage. Yes, Bards can use the sap, but so can any class with martial weapon proficiency. Just doing nonlethal damage isn't what I want, because anyone can do that. I want to build the nonlethal damage into a large part of what the character is. When faced with something that nonlethal damage doesn't work on, I want him to be out of his element, but when it works I want him to shine.

I don't really care that building around nonlethal damage could cripple the character. I don't need to be optimized toward every situation to have fun, and sometimes the one trick pony is the most fun thing to play.

And actually, as I was typing this response, I was thinking. 8 levels of Scout/Thug followed by 6 levels in Archaeologist, or mixing them up along the way, would probably be a decent way of doing this. I'd lose out on sneak attack damage and have a slower progression on Rogue Talents, but I'd gain a couple levels of spellcasting, a few more class skills, and regain Trap Sense and Trapfinding. It could work pretty well I think. Maybe not a super-optimal way of doing it, but it could be fun.

[blackbloodtroll]

Okay.

1) What books are available?

2) What races are available?

3) What is the point buy?

4) What is the desired alignment?

[Snark Victory]

All you have to do to maximize non lethal damage is sweep the leg

[Cap. Darling]

I have been working on a goblin ninja with a double barelled pistol with the mercy enchantment on and, sap mastery, rapid shot, grater sniper googles and boots og haste. I belive he could be the knock out master.

[Unruly]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay.

1) What books are available?

2) What races are available?

3) What is the point buy?

4) What is the desired alignment?

1. All PF Core books, no ACG playtest.

2. Core and Featured.
3. 20pt buy.
4. True Neutral.

[Wise Old Man]

Unruly wrote:

Help me build the knockout king.

I'm working on a similar build.

Stick to Rogue Scout/Thug, plus that sneak attack damage is key.

You can do Sap Adept and Sap Master with Enforcer to go into Shatter Defences with the Scout's Charge and Skirmisher of the Scout. Thug helps as well...Buuuut I say just be Scout/Thug, and don't think too much about Shattered Defences, and keep your options open.

You want to get them flat-footed as much as possible with S.M., Ki Pool (Talent) and Vanishing Trick (Ninja Trick) can help.

Also, it's kind of feat heavy, however quite worth it, the Pinning Knockout + Pinning Rend. Pinning Knockout + Sap Master quadruples your nonlethal unarmed strike damage, add with Pinning Rend can bleed them out pretty fast.

Monks give you a free Improved Unarmed Strike.
Dipping a few levels in Flowing Monk/Master of Many Styles would but help too.
Flowing Monk has Unbalancing Counter to get them flat-footed and Flow Monk has a bunch other goodies that will help you out a lot. MoMS at first level can get you a style and at second level you can skip the second style within that style tree to go into the third style without the prerequisites, so for example if you get Snake Style at first level, at second level you can get Snake Fang.

To top it off, (I recently discovered this devilish thing) You can dip 3 levels into Horizon Walker and get Diminsion Door at 3 + Wis and retrain 3 feats to get Diminsional Dervish, now you can flank with yourself. ;)

Hehehahaha *laughs back into the cloudy mist*

[blackbloodtroll]

Ah.

Well, my favorite Nonlethal build was a Nightmare Fist using Inquisitor with the Torture subdomain.

[Ciroth]

I can't take credit for this build, as it came out of one of the threads on "building a better rogue." I have been playing this build for a couple of months now and it seems to be very close to what you are looking for. Perhaps there are more optimized builds, but I have found it to be very effective in and out of combat. You can hit for a ton of non-lethal and when needed you can talk, steal, or intimidate the answer to questions you may have.

I play with a pretty low optimization group, so this build can be pretty scary with how much damage it throws around. However, the balancing factor is that you are essentially always going to be on your own separate damage grid. As an added bonus, if you play with a really blood thirsty group similar to mine, it is always nice to give the GM an opportunity to advance the story with one of the survivors you've knocked out.

Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 9

Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F- Improved Unarmed Strike
1F- Dragon Style
1H- Enforcer
3R- Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R- Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R- Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R- Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist

Skills :
Perception
Disable Device
Acrobatics
Stealth
Sleight of Hand
Bluff
Intimidate
Use Magic Device
Sense Motive

[Wise Old Man]

I forgot to mention that you need Diminsional Savant as well to Flank with yourself...*echos from the mist* :P

[ClownWolf]

Ciroth wrote:

I can't take credit for this build, as it came out of one of the threads on "building a better rogue." I have been playing this build for a couple of months now and it seems to be very close to what you are looking for. Perhaps there are more optimized builds, but I have found it to be very effective in and out of combat. You can hit for a ton of non-lethal and when needed you can talk, steal, or intimidate the answer to questions you may have.

I play with a pretty low optimization group, so this build can be pretty scary with how much damage it throws around. However, the balancing factor is that you are essentially always going to be on your own separate damage grid. As an added bonus, if you play with a really blood thirsty group similar to mine, it is always nice to give the GM an opportunity to advance the story with one of the survivors you've knocked out.

Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 9

Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F- Improved Unarmed Strike
1F- Dragon Style
1H- Enforcer
3R- Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R- Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R- Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R- Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist

Skills :
Perception
Disable Device
Acrobatics
Stealth
Sleight of Hand
Bluff
Intimidate
Use Magic Device
Sense Motive

Wise Old Man is right on adding the Thug archtype. They stack so add it on!!!

This is a great build for what he is looking for and also similar to my Rogue Grappler!
Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout/Cut-Purse Rogue 9
Some minor changes but mostly just replace the sap intended feats with the following.
Improved Grapple
Snapping Turtle Strike
Snapping Turtle Clutch
Snapping Turtle Shell
Strangler
Body Shield

Add in Brawling armor, Agile Amulet of Might Fists, Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver, etc and you are pretty good to go!
Maybe even levels in Barbarian with Urban & Brutal Pugilist?

[Humphry B ManWitch]

blackbloodtroll please explain how a Sneak attacking Rogue dose less damage than a Barbarian? barbarian gains +4 STR that is +2 to attack and damage (+3 if wielding a 2 handed weapon) barbarians don't gain any more access to feats that rogues cant get.

lets assume the rogue is using a 2 handed weapon and took strength 18 just like a barbarian so on average a sneak attack will do 3.5 damage per D6 dice.(so much much more damage at higher levels) they can power attack etc.. sure their to hit is slightly lower but they do get access to weapon focus as a rogue talent so they can easily keep up.

with my math they are doing more damage than a barbarian due to sneak attack damage. sure they cant do it all the time and some creatures are immune to it.. but it is no way a reason to constantly say don't play a rogue because X is better.

[ArmouredMonk13]

This isn't necessarily what you are looking for, but it can come in handy for this build.

1:Half-Orcs are great at nonlethal rogue if you are okay with a STR build, since the Skulking Slayer is, in combat, a death machine with Bludgeoner and the Sap line of feats. Especially with a Tetsubo.

2:Bludgeoner feat is one you want if you use a weapon.

3:Ninja>Rogue in combat generally IMO, since you have the invisibility function and ki for extra attacks at full attack bonus. Of course, if you want a Thug/Scout, you can't do this, but you can do a Ninja/Scout.

4:ACG has a slayer, which is a ranger/rogue and has essentially 1/2 sneak attack, so with the Sap Master feat and a way to HiPS, you can theoretically get full sneak attack on top of full BAB and other stuff.

[TheSideKick]

im trying to get a bare knuckle boxer to work for me.
MoMS monk/unarmed fighter/thug+scout rogue
so far i have this weird build.
level 1:(monk) enforcer,combat reflexes,tiger pounce
level 2:(monk) snake fang
level 3:(monk) tiger style
level 4:(fighter)snake style
level 5:(rogue) 1d6 SA, sap adept
level 6:(rogue) (combat trick)ko artist
level 7:(rogue) 2d6 SA power attack?
level 8:(rogue) (style master)tiger claws
level 9:(rogue) 3d6 sap master
level 10:(rogue) offensive defense
level 11:(monk) ki pool, quinggong (slow fall-> truestrike), quicken SLA true strike
level 12:(rogue)4d6 SA

tiger pounce mobility mixed with scout archetype lets him get a full attack and qualify the first attack as flat footed. once you get tiger claws at 8 you can deal 2d6 + 2.5strength + 4 (brawler enchant) + 6 AOMF + 8d6 + 24 nonlethal on a full attack action against a flat footed target.

after twelve invulnerable rager to 20 for dr, saves, and strength stacking. getting dragon style chain and combat style mastery to swap snake for dragon as a free action while attacking.

his stats are funky though...

strength>dex>con>wisdom>int>cha

-need cha for intimidate, not necessary but still.
-need wisdom for kipool later in the game, most likely start off 10
int for skills, but im human and only need one skill maxed, sense motive.
-need dex for combat reflexes to fuel snake fang
-need con to not die since im a melee combatant
-strength for damage, duh

its looking like:

str 18
dex 16
con 12
wis 9
int 7
cha 13

seems about right. make sure to put my first ability point into Wis to negate the penalty.

[Unruly]

So I've continued thinking about this, and I've decided that for the most part the Scout/Thug Rogue tends to fit what I want to do damage-wise. But I'm still not sure if I've got a good build going.

Human Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 13
Level 1: Scout/Thug Rogue - Sap Adept, Improved Initiative
Level 2: Martial Artist Monk - IUS, Stunning Fist, FoB, Dodge(bonus feat)
Level 3: S/T Rouge - Offensive Defense, Knockout Artist
Level 4: S/T Rogue
Level 5: S/T Rogue, Finesse Rogue, Mobility
Level 6: S/T Rogue
Level 7: S/T Rogue, Sap Master, Slow Reactions
Level 8: S/T Rogue
Level 9: S/T Rogue, Spring Attack, Combat Trick(Enforcer)
Level 10+ Archaeologist Bard?

I went with spring attack so that, hopefully, I could use Skirmisher just about every round from level 9 onward, at least when I'm denied normal chances to use SA. Not optimal, but it's hard to pass up the opportunity to roll a fistful of dice as a rogue. I wanted to get Archaeologist in earlier, at least up to level 2, but I didn't know where to put it without really slowing down my damage output. The level of Martial Artist does a good job of getting me better saves all over and a few freebie feats at the expense of 1 BAB and a few skills, so I think it's a nice dip for the build. It also enables me to take Knockout Artist at level 3, further increasing my nonlethal damage.

What do you guys think?

[blackbloodtroll]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

blackbloodtroll please explain how a Sneak attacking Rogue dose less damage than a Barbarian? barbarian gains +4 STR that is +2 to attack and damage (+3 if wielding a 2 handed weapon) barbarians don't gain any more access to feats that rogues cant get.

lets assume the rogue is using a 2 handed weapon and took strength 18 just like a barbarian so on average a sneak attack will do 3.5 damage per D6 dice.(so much much more damage at higher levels) they can power attack etc.. sure their to hit is slightly lower but they do get access to weapon focus as a rogue talent so they can easily keep up.

with my math they are doing more damage than a barbarian due to sneak attack damage. sure they cant do it all the time and some creatures are immune to it.. but it is no way a reason to constantly say don't play a rogue because X is better.

No.

Do a forum search.

Barbarian wins. Every, single, time.

[ArmouredMonk13]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

No.

Do a forum search.

Barbarian wins. Every, single, time.

Oh:

Human Barbarian 1

Stats:
STR8
Dex8
CON7
INT16
WIS10
CHA20

Really?:

Human Rogue 1
Stats:
STR18
DEX14
CON14
INT12
WIS12
CHA7

But seriously, beyond clearly suboptimal barbarians and min-maxed rogues, barbarian will out-damage a rogue all the time.

However, a rogue can still be incredibly viable and contribute to the party as much as a barbarian with incredible damage the times they do hit [which while not the most common situation, isn't as rare as the boards make it seem], and incredible out-of-combat utility.

[taldanrebel2187]

The only issue is that Rogues have a slight scaling issue when it comes to survival factor at high levels. Also many creature types are immune outright to non-lethal damage. Good build ideas for a level 1-5 campaign though

[Unruly]

I won't argue that barbarians do more damage than rogues on a consistent basis. Or that rogues have some survival issues at later levels because they're d8, low armor, front-line characters.

But creature types that are outright immune to nonlethal damage? That list is shorter than the types that are immune to crits/sneak attacks. From looking at the PRD, you've got Constructs and Undead that are immune to nonlethal damage, as well as the Inevitable subtype. Immune to crits/sneak attacks includes Construct, Elemental, Ooze, Swarm, Undead, and the Inevitable subtype. Being immune to SA is going to be a much bigger problem than being immune to nonlethal damage, I think.

[Cap. Darling]

Unruly wrote:

I won't argue that barbarians do more damage than rogues on a consistent basis. Or that rogues have some survival issues at later levels because they're d8, low armor, front-line characters.

But creature types that are outright immune to nonlethal damage? That list is shorter than the types that are immune to crits/sneak attacks. From looking at the PRD, you've got Constructs and Undead that are immune to nonlethal damage, as well as the Inevitable subtype. Immune to crits/sneak attacks includes Construct, Elemental, Ooze, Swarm, Undead, and the Inevitable subtype. Being immune to SA is going to be a much bigger problem than being immune to nonlethal damage, I think.

The list Can seem short but it contains Undead and Constructs.

[blackbloodtroll]

Also, when you mix in the fact that it's Precision damage, you up your chances of having no effect.

Some things are immune to Nonlethal damage, and some are immune to Precision damage, and some are immune to both.

Concealment ruins Precision damage as well.

[Unruly]

Well, not no effect, but much lesser effect. You've still got your regular damage.

I'm full well ready to concede that rogue isn't the best choice for dealing damage in general. But it really does seem like they have the best ways to deal nonlethal damage in mass quantities, even if it is situational most of the time.

[blackbloodtroll]

Have you thought about the Inquisitor of an ideal idea?

[Unruly]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Have you thought about the Inquisitor of an ideal idea?

Honestly, I find the Inquisitor/Cleric of an ideal thing to be a cop-out and I've met more than a few GMs who are like-minded. Unlike Oracles, who are generally supposed to be the unwilling vessel of a deity, Clerics and Inquisitors are supposed to have chosen that life of devotion. And yes, I know that falls into the trap of letting your class define your RP, which is generally a bad thing to do.

Though I did look at the Heretic archetype, and it could be a valid option since Heretics, by definition, don't exactly follow the church.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Unruly wrote:

So I've continued thinking about this, and I've decided that for the most part the Scout/Thug Rogue tends to fit what I want to do damage-wise. But I'm still not sure if I've got a good build going.

Human Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 13
Level 1: Scout/Thug Rogue - Sap Adept, Improved Initiative
Level 2: Martial Artist Monk - IUS, Stunning Fist, FoB, Dodge(bonus feat)
Level 3: S/T Rouge - Offensive Defense, Knockout Artist
Level 4: S/T Rogue
Level 5: S/T Rogue, Finesse Rogue, Mobility
Level 6: S/T Rogue
Level 7: S/T Rogue, Sap Master, Slow Reactions
Level 8: S/T Rogue
Level 9: S/T Rogue, Spring Attack, Combat Trick(Enforcer)
Level 10+ Archaeologist Bard?

I went with spring attack so that, hopefully, I could use Skirmisher just about every round from level 9 onward, at least when I'm denied normal chances to use SA. Not optimal, but it's hard to pass up the opportunity to roll a fistful of dice as a rogue. I wanted to get Archaeologist in earlier, at least up to level 2, but I didn't know where to put it without really slowing down my damage output. The level of Martial Artist does a good job of getting me better saves all over and a few freebie feats at the expense of 1 BAB and a few skills, so I think it's a nice dip for the build. It also enables me to take Knockout Artist at level 3, further increasing my nonlethal damage.

What do you guys think?

If you're ever going to mix Rogue/Ninja and Monk, either do Qinggong-Flowing or Qinggong-MoMS+Snake Style/Fang. With Flowing you(at level 2) get the option of making your opponents flat-footed with your AoOs. Put Snake Style/Sidewind/Fang in there with some decent AC.. and everyone is flat-footed.

[Unruly]

I did Martial Artist to get away from the alignment restriction.

[PapaZorro]

1. You're misreading Sap Adept - you gain a bonus to your damage roll equal to TWICE the number of Sneak Attack dice you roll. So 3d6 Sneak Attack becomes 3d6+6. 6d6+12. At 20th level with Sap Adept and Sap Mastery it's 20d6+40 (+strength/magic/weapon/power attack/etc).

Also if you're thinking of going the Scout route (hehe rhymes) you might as well pick up Power Attack and Furious Focus to make your single attack each round hurt a lot more with no penalty.

Also - you can pick up the Major Magic talent to get True Strike, then Quick SLA later and quicken true-strikes on your massive attack.

Show me a Barbarian who can do more damage when the Sap Adep/Sap Mastery hits and the opponent is not immune. And yes - he shall hit with quickened True Strike (and if the caster's got some mirror images up he can always Dispelling Attack them once he's level 10 or higher).

[blackbloodtroll]

PapaZorro wrote:

Show me a Barbarian who can do more damage when the Sap Adep/Sap Mastery hits and the opponent is not immune. And yes - he shall hit with quickened True Strike (and if the caster's got some mirror images up he can always Dispelling Attack them once he's level 10 or higher).

Define the parameters.

[Unruly]

PapaZorro wrote:

Also - you can pick up the Major Magic talent to get True Strike, then Quick SLA later and quicken true-strikes on your massive attack.

Two rogue talents and a feat for being able to cast quickened True Strike twice a day seems a bit... expensive. Sure, it allows for two hits that are almost guaranteed to land, but a single fight could use up both of those. And I don't play in groups that do the 15-minute adventuring day. We go until we're nearly dead and have to stop most of the time, not until we run out of our best abilities.

[PapaZorro]

It's not two rogue talents and a feat to get Quickened True Strike 2/day, think of it more like it's 2 rogue talents as pre-reqs to get that sweet sweet Dispelling Attack and/or a Familiar of your very own!

Also - Blackblood troll - I'd love it if you came up with a Barbarian, levels 5, 10, 15, 20 - how much maximum damage can they do in a single hit? Or in a single round? If you feel like you have time it'd be cool to see.