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Hello all,
My wife started playing PFS recently and has a level 1 Fighter. She wanted to play a Fighter to keep things simple since she's really new to everything. She's looking to play a "Knight" type character using a sword and shield and she wants to keep her offense and defense both balanced. I've helped her a bit but I'd like help/suggestions before her character hits level 2 on the next game day.
Race: Aasimar Angel-Kin
Alt racial traits: Truespeaker & Halo
Traits: Armor Expert, Clergy member
Stats:
Str: 16+2racial = 18
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 9
**PFS 20 point buy system**
Feats: Shield Focus, Missle Shield
(I selected those for her to help increase her defense/survivability.)
My next guess was to suggest Power Attack for her level 2 feat. Other than that I'm clueless. Feel free to give any suggestions, she wants to stay Aasimar and be a knight in shining armor (sword & shield)
P.S. - Please keep any suggestions simple, no multiclassing, no spells, just simple straight forward fighter that keeps offense and defense balanced. Thanks!
That is one average angel.
But dude, this is your wife? She always wins encounters. Always. This is going to save you some nights on the couch.
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one, she has a 16 pt buy, drop CHa to 8, so you can grab a 14 in wis. I also suggest swapping dex and Con.
also, I suggest going human for the extra feat, +2 str form racial trait, if she wants to keep angel kin thats fine, just remember she gets a +2 to CHA as well.
Hey Rorek55,
I'll have to go over her stat sheet to double check but I believe we dropped her charisma to 7 and it's at 9 due to the +2cha bonus.
Since this is PFS I'll be playing a character along side her so I hope she does win encounters or I'm probably dead also lol. Any thoughts on feats or traits?
EDIT: Looks like she's using a 13 point buy from what I can tell. Angel-Kin gets +2str and +2cha. Looks like I need to up her stats, any suggestions?
Almost all my characters have a few daggers, just for throwing purposes.
16/14/14/10/12/8 should be a fine stat array. Racial bonus into STR for an 18.
Human is totally the way to go here. Toughness is a solid feat, Power Attack is almost a blatant necessity, and Weapon Focus is also really good. If you are looking at increasing defenses, Iron Will and Dodge readily come to mind.
Defender of the society is a great trait to look at.
Str 16+2
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8 + 2
Traits:
Scholar of the Great Beyond
Courageous
1st: Shield Focus
Combat Expertise
2nd: Improved Trip
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Improved Sunder
5th: Iron Will
6th: Weapon Focus
7th: Weapon Specialization
8th: Greater Trip
For a weapon, pick up an adamantine flail
Skills, 4 per lev
K(dungeoneering), K(planes), K(local)
Swim, Climb, Acrobatics
Perception
Intimidate
Here is my take: Just because she is new does't mean she can't have a character with intelligences or options, and this one has both. She can diasble her foes as well as damage them, and she gets to add her weapon training and focus to all trip and sunder attempts.
She also had knowledge, social and mobility skills, all important in participating outside of combat.
Just thought I'd provide a different perspective.
One idea for your wife, if she's going to be using a shield anyway: Swing that shield two-handed.
You can avoid TWF and just beat people in the face with your shield (if it's Heavy) as if it were a two-handed weapon. You need Improved Shield Bash first, IMO, but then get Power Attack at level 3. Essentially, she'd be turning into Captain America, retaining her shield bonus to AC while hitting for either...
Spiked Heavy Shield - 1d6 + 1.5xSTR + Power Attack + Weapon Training, piercing damage
Or...
Heavy Shield (no spikes) - 1d4 + 1.5xSTR + Power Attack + Weapon Training, bludgeoning damage
Depending on which damage type she likes more. You won't be swinging a greatsword or the like around, but it's still 1.5xSTR damage with full shield AC. I've read that you can get both weapon and shield enchantments for the shield, too; but you have to pay for each separately. If someone can confirm this, that would be awesome.
Doing an effective sword-and-shield Fighter is not at all simple in PF. The expectation is that you're going to be effective with your longsword and well defended with your shield, and that's just not the reality. Using a one-handed weapon puts you at ½ to 2/3 of your expected damage contribution. To make up for it, you're supposed to spastically flail away at things with your shield while wielding a shortsword.
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EDIT: Can we change the lvl 1 statistics or not? Is this a character that is being played or you are just in the designing phase?
Sorry for the responding so slow!
She's currently playing this character and is 2 out of 3 xp towards level 2. Once she hits level 2 her sheet is finalized so currently anything is free to be changed/adjusted but after March 15th it's all locked in for PFS play. (They let you make adjustments while your level 1 but after that it's set in stone.)
Is shield bashing a good tactic? She plans on using something like a longsword or such and a steel shield, not sure if she'd roll with something as small as a kukri. She's more about fulfilling the concept of a Knight in Shining Armor and less about power gaming. She doesn't want to be completely useless though either.
EDIT: I want to stay away from most Combat Maneuvers as that may be a little complicated for her and just overwhelm her with options. She's completely new to Pathfinder and new to roleplaying games as a whole. The KISS (Keep it simple stupid) method is probably best here while optimizing it to be useful throughout levels 1-12.
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that's a good idea BBT and I'll suggest this to her. Getting that 1.5x str bonus is a good way to get a little extra boost of damage. Would also be helpful for using a bow or something at range.
Maybe Javalins as a throwable weapon choice? Should be able to put shield up and sword, grab a javelin and throw it then redraw the sword and shield as long as the shield is a "Quickdraw Shield" and she has the "Quickdraw" feat.
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Basically, it's a one feat investment that gets the whole "sword and board" feel, whilst sticking to the simpler, and more damage heavy, two handed build.
Quickdraw Shield is in the APG, and you can find it's stats here.
I agree with TGMaxMaxers advice - I was kind of trying to create something along those lines. It's a solid PFS approach.
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If she wants to be the Shining Sword and Board fighter you have to ask yourself this question. How do you imagine That Knight fighting. Is he using the shield to attack as well or is the shield just being used for defense. To me a shield is to be used in Combat as a weapon just as much as the sword he is wielding. So I would go the 2 weapon fighting route. Here is my Build advice.
Race: Aasimar Angel-Kin
Alt racial traits: Truespeaker
Class: Fighter Two weapon Warrior Archetype
Traits: Defender of the Society, Indomitable Faith
Str: 18
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 9
(All point increases into Dex for pre req for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. The goal for belt is +2 to all 3 physical stats. )
Feats:
1- Improved Shield Bash
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
2- Power Attack
3- Combat Reflexes
4- Improved Bull Rush
5- Double Slice
6- Greater Bull Rush
7- Shield Slam
8- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9- Iron Will
10- Bodyguard or Stand Still
11- Shield Mastery
12- Bashing Finish
With the Two weapon Warrior you will get the following abilities to compliment the build nicely. You will have a scaling Dodge bonus just for Two weapon fighting. The to hit will be made better as you level. And finally @ 11th level you can get Improved Balance which allows you to use a Heavy steel shield in the off hand instead of a light steel shield. Level 11 will be intense for sure. Find a killer Heavy steel shield with as high of a + you can with the bashing property. A heavy steel shield bashing does 1d8 damage....when enlarged you shield becomes a 2d6...and the long sword you are using becomes a 2d6....your effectively Duel wielding Great swords.
At 3rd level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full-attack with both weapons, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 3rd.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1 and 2.
Twin Blades (Ex)
At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full-attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
Double-strike (Ex)
At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 2.
Improved Balance (Ex)
At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a two-weapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
Equipment wise I would shoot for:
Adamantine Long sword
+1+ Bashing Mithral Shield
+1+ Mithral Breast Plate (or celestial armor)
Cloak of Resistance
Wayfinder w/ Clear spindle (Anti mind control)
Boots of Speed or striding and springing
Amulet of Natural armor
Belt +2 to as many stats as possible
Potions of Fly, Enlarge, Rage, Bless Weapon, Bark skin, Haste, Mirror image, Heroism, Aid.
All are useful Potions are incredible and you can use them when ever without help from others.
Wands: Cure light wounds (First 2 PP spent), False Life
The cure light wounds is a must as PFS your required to bring your own healing. Have others use this on you. Same goes with the False Life. The extra hit points really comes in handy if you can find one of these wands.
Lastly try to find and use Boons that increase your Will save as that is the fighters worst and most important save.
My suggestion to keep it simple is to just Two Handed Fighter. Strait up. A shield really doesn't help that much. I tried the 2 weapon shield bash guy - low levels it really doesn't work, not enough damage and not enough AC to justify - Everyone else outshines you until late late level - I didn't take it that far, level 6 or something but I hear it is good at levels 15 or something. Too much needing dex, until your bonuses start stacking high for damage it's painful.
Sure, sword and shield is a nice idea. Look ma, nothing hits me. But strait up full plate with a good dex (armour training) is a very solid AC that few things hit easily.
Power Attack increase + Str*1.5 is very good, and makes a far more effective character that is simple and doesn't need a stupid number of feats, this will allow a nice sexy bow to use with Quickdraw for ranged. Allows more feats for the bow to actually do some sexy damage. Or to boost up saves.
Stat array of:
Str 17 + 2
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Chr 7 + 2
Your points seem off. A 20 point buy at the Character Creation gives me this.
Feats
1st: Power Attack, Weapon Focus
2nd: Quickdraw
If you want to go ideal a No-Dachi is probably the best with 1d10 damage with 18-20 crit range. Great sword is still pretty sexy.
Glove of Storing can help with Quickdrawing weapons when she gets the cash.
Chain Mail + Shield will gets you 21 AC.
Chain Mail and 2 Hander will get you 18 AC.
Bad guys will have a CR2 and a +3-5 bonus to hit. Still not hitting all that much. Hit points of maybe 20.
Your damage will be 1d8+4 as a sword and board.
2 handed and its 2d6+9 with the same attack bonus.
It costs more money to outfit with a shield, that could be used on a cloak of resistance or whatever.
The biggest thing about the sword and shield (going all out defense as you seem to be) is the two handed fighter still has a very good AC. The difference is hard to hit verse very hard or 20.
4th level Full plate gets a 2 hander 22 AC with dodge at 3rd, vs 25 AC sword and board with the 2 hander doing nearly twice the damage.
I personally think a sword and board mechanics just aren't enough to go with that over a 2 hander. A 2 hander has more money to spend on things and more feat options that gives more versatility and fun.
And after all her heritage, the top angels the Solars use 2 handed swords.
Have her switch to greatsword... 2d6 + 1 & .5 str damage,,, always goes down well on our table.. ;)
First, she can change out the character between her 3rd and 4th chronicle. Whatever build she plays for her first level 2 scenario becomes final, so that should give you one more attempt before her build is fixed.
A couple of general notes:
I'm not a fan of the Two Weapon Warrior archetype: it doesn't get useful until you're almost at the end of your PFS career. It trades out overall useful stuff for specific-situation options, and I retrained my TWF out of it the second retraining became available.
If she keeps a fighter archetype with Armor Training, I'd trade out Armor Expert for a trait that ups her Will save (there are a bunch) or Defender of the Society (+1 trait bonus to AC in medium or heavy armor). She'll only suffer armor check penalty for a few levels, and mostly on skills she doesn't use that often anyway.
For a backup ranged attack, skip the bow and get her some chakrams: for 1 gp each you get a 30ft range increment and do 1d8+Str. If she goes with Quick Draw, she can throw weapons at the same rate of fire as a bow. And as a bonus, the chakrams are halo shaped, which seems to fit the angel motif. (Unless you're an actual ranged fighter, bows are just not cost effective at lower levels. She can pick up a composite longbow later if she feels like she needs it, but at level 2, you have a lot more important stuff to do with 300 gp. And I say this as a player with 2 separate archer characters.)
Above all, I'd say go with what she wants to play over what will be more effective. If she wants sword-and-board, build the best sword and board you can. If what she wants is to do the most damage at the table, fine, then optimize for two-handed fighting. To me, there's nothing more frustrating to me than being told "No, your character idea is completely stupid--you should play my character idea instead!"
Sure, she might want to carry around a great sword or an earthbreaker as a backup for when she needs to punch through some DR. But she doesn't need to one-shot every enemy in every scenario to be effective, and honestly, your tablemates will really appreciate it if you leave them something to do.
For a backup ranged attack, skip the bow and get her some chakrams: for 1 gp each you get a 30ft range increment and do 1d8+Str. If she goes with Quick Draw, she can throw weapons at the same rate of fire as a bow.If you plan on never using your ranged attack after level 2, this advice is okay.
Context is everything.
Since we're talking about a back-up weapon for a level 2 character, this is kind of the point, isn't it? I said "bows aren't cost effective at low levels". Spend a few gold on the optimal thrown weapon for two-three levels until you can afford a 400gp item as a back up weapon that you might never actually use.
Plus, fighters have so many feats that the statement that you can throw chakrams as rapidly as you can fire arrows isn't really legitimate. At level 6-7, you can fire four arrows, three of them are at the same, high, modifier. At 6-7, you can still only throw two chakram, and given that you might have to close to get within 30 feet, maybe only one.
The OP was already thinking about taking Quick Draw for something else entirely, and I was actually quoting the Quick Draw feat. At 2nd level, with no other feat investments, the character can, in fact, draw and throw weapons as fast as they could fire a bow.
To get the rate of fire you are talking about, you need to spend 3 feats (not including Precise Shot), and again, we're talking about a 2nd level character here. None of the build suggestions slotted out blowing 3 feats on a backup weapon option, so again, in context, your comments aren't really legitimate.
Also, buy a +X bow or get Greater Magic Weapon from a wizard, and all of your arrows are +X arrows. Buy a +1 chakram or javelin, and you have a single +1 chakram or javelin. Weapons need enhancement bonuses to keep up at the later levels.
In short, thrown weapons are a patch to get you to level 3. Past that point, if you want a real ranged weapon, buy a bow and, especially if pure fighter, drop a few feats into it.
We're talking about a level 2 character, and people only mentioned bows for backup. At 2nd level, 75gp is still a lot of money. At an 18 strength, a composite longbow is 100gp + 75x4 = 400 gp. A chakram can do the same amount of damage at 1gp, which is really sweet until you're high enough level that 400gp becomes a throwaway amount of money.
And in PFS, there are very few scenarios that use long-range combat, especially in the 1-5 tier. (I can think of maybe 4 in that tier where the range increment would come into play.) My 11th level TWF has drawn her composite longbow exactly twice in her career; she still carries the three +1 seeking arrows she picked up at level 6. (She has however tossed a bunch of chakrams around.) My 8th level earthbreaker-wielder has drawn her bow exactly never; she tosses light hammers in close quarters since that's her fighter weapon training group (and she's a blacksmith, so it's a thing).
There's no question that a composite longbow is the king of ranged weapons for non-gunslingers. I personally love archers--heck, I used to teach it at Girl Scout camps and in the SCA. I currently play 2 different archers, one in PFS and one in Rise of the Runelords. But none of this is relevant to the current thread.
The OP was seeking advice for a sword and board build, at 2nd level, for PFS. I know of no PFS melee fighters who have spent feats on Point-Blank and Precise Shot, much less Rapid Shot or Manyshot, and none of the suggestions for advancing the build had any room for three throw-away feats. And no 2nd level PFS character has a spare 400gp to drop on non-primary gear, especially since the "play up" rules were changed last year.
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Because the Original poster said Sword and board I didn't offer the Simple 2 handed fighter. It gets boring quickly though as your focusing down on 1 weapon and your AC suffers. Other then that technically the 2 handed fighter is the best and most consistent damage dealer. But if your going for Flavor stick with the 2 weapon fighting. It is PFS and your allowed to not Optimize for combat. I played a Scenario last week that had 0 combat. Had a chance at combat and was talked down with diplomacy and a charm spell. Truthfully I say let your wife run the Sword and Board.
If your worried about Ranged just throw your Alchemist fires, holy water, tanglefoot bag or a javelin. You can move and draw a weapon so you should be moving to close distance anyways no need to waste money/time on a Bow or its feats in hopes for a full round attack.
Two weapon fighting people say is hard to understand....I believe the opposite. Yes it is more difficult then a 2 handed fighter but not by much. I don't believe the OP wife to be mentally challenged so I believe she can figure it out rather quickly and have it mastered in a session or 2. A key I learned is to put yourself in a spot where the enemies finish closing distance and you can start your turn with the full attack. If they move more then 5 feet they get less attacks. This will help save your life and offer your character the first full attack. Giving the enemy the first full attack hurts. But technically this should be done with most melee types unless you have pounce or can charge and end them in 1 swing.
I would fiddle with the stats to get your Int up to 13. This opens up combat expertise, which is the prereq for a number of fun options for the fighter, and allows you to situationally increase your AC. Having both Power attach and Combat expertise will give you the most options (well for there's also archer builds and two weapon fighting builds as pointed out above)
Here's what I recommend...
As she plays the character events will happen, let the character's growth determine what mechanics to select.
To that end the four feats I recommend for best versatility are:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
After That, pick a combat maneuver that sounds like fun, and make your GM cry. The Aasimar only feats can be fun and build character. And the shield feats can help a bit.
I don't recommend Two weapon fighting for the first time out because it is easy to miscalculate your to hit and damage.
Lastly In addition to the traditional suite of protections (Magic Armor, Cloak of resistance, Amulet of Natural armor, Ring of Protection) The magic items I like for fighters are: Potion of Fly (and eventually winged boots), Sash of the War Champion, and Seducer's Bane bracers. But don't neglect ye old girdle of giant strength, and don't leave home without your clear spindle safely in your wayfinder. I'm also a big fan of an adamantine mourning star as a back up weapon.
One of the great things about a fighter is that even if you fail to optimize or specialize you can still contribute to the party. Just keep your AC and saves as high as possible.
Two Handed Fighter archetype sucks. It weakens what is already a problems for fighters, AC and movement.
I agree with the opinion for thrown weapons, I didn't get a bow until maybe 6th level and it was cheap for me. I used javelins when needed. It's after 6th that a fighter will have lots of feats to throw around. Or none with two weapon fighting, two weapon fighter is not something that is easy nor figured out in a session or two.
Two weapon fighters with shield are easy to mess up. What do you take...high dex? Then your damage is pitiful. High Strength isn't possible so you are left with a +2 on strength, if you wanted to go that way. It takes all your feats and then some to be competent so that at 15 or so level you can do some decent damage because now your strength is OK, you are getting bonuses to hit and damage from weapon training groups. Meh, it is a pain and weak all the way through until the end, gives you no flexibility (otherwise your character will be weak) and no fun.
I gave my analysis of the fighter. If going strait fighter sword and board, I wouldn't worry about your AC so much, everyone else's will be much lower. WF and WS on the long sword or scimitar to make you more of a threat. Focus on what you don't do well.
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I appreciate all the advice. My wife is more than capable of learning ins and outs of Pathfinder but I'm looking to not throw a lot at her in the beginning with a bunch of choices as I'm more likely to turn her away from Pathfinder. She's only playing PFS because it's a hobby that we can both enjoy and spend time together having fun. She enjoyed the 3 sessions she's played in the past but it's not something she'd do if I wasn't playing.
With that said, I'm going to suggest the option of the quickdraw feat to 2hand a longsword and still use a shield to defend, along with it's usefulness for thrown weapons. I think I'm going suggest for her to not to TWF, but to just focus on feats that benefit her longsword and probably feats like Step Up. Based on her decision on the above I'll change her stats around (most likely well rounded, maybe tanking Charisma if she decides).
Feel free to add any other suggestions if you'd like. Her character isn't locked in until this Saturday's games.