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Pounce allows the creature to take all his attacks on a charge, including rake attacks, if it has rake. So yes, it would be bite, claw, claw, rake, rake on a charge.
Basically, the rakes are the hind legs...also why you can do the rakes in a grapple - front legs holding on, damage with bite, rake with 2 hind legs.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Unfortunately this precludes using the rakes on a pounce, but you do get to use it in the second round if you grappled in the first round.
prototype00
Pounce effectively works like a charge, save that you can make a full attack action at the end. A tiger gets 2 claw attacks, a bite attack, and then a rake attack (which is two claw attacks) - so 5 damage rolls total. Plus you get a free grab attempt.
A rake attack is effectively an attack with the claws on the creature's hind legs, but you only can trigger them under certain conditions.
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
In the case of a tiger, it's not a grapple that's required to get the rake, it's a pounce. This is called out explicitly in the definition of the Pounce ability:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.
So your Druid needs:
-A clear path to his target, with no rough terrain between him and the target
-To be at least 10 feet away from the target
-No conditions that would preclude a pounce
Then he gets 2 claws, a bite, and a rake (2 more claws).
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.Unfortunately this precludes using the rakes on a pounce, but you do get to use it in the second round if you grappled in the first round.
prototype00
This is incorrect. See above; Pounce explicitly states that it allows you to make the rake attack when you pounce.
So no, Tintalles, scenario 1 in your first post is correct: Pounce, claw, claw, bite, rake (claw, claw).
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Ordinarily, Rage only works if you start the round grappling. However, it works differently if you also have Pounce. Tigers have both Pounce and Rake. So on a Pounce, the Tiger gets Bite/Claws x 4 for a total of five attacks.
So how does pounce work? Very well.
EDIT: Xaratherus is an edit ninja, apparently. Sneaky, sneaky, Xar ...
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Okay, so to get the most mileage out of it, my druid player needs to do something like this:
Round 1
Charge; full attack with a +2 bonus; bite/claw/claw/grab attemptRound 2
Assuming grab successful, full attack is bite/claw/claw/claw/claw. If not, it's bite/claw/claw/grab attempt, only without the +2 bonus.Right?
If the grab is successful, then both the tiger and the target are grappled, and that changes the whole ball of wax.
Personally, I rule that you cannot make a grab attempt on a rake attack, since the rules are unclear, but that is up to the GM.
But if the grab is successful, then the grapple rules go into effect: you get your grapple check, if successful whatever you want to do with your grapple (move, damage, pin, etc.), then the two rake attacks.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).Ordinarily, Rage only works if you start the round grappling. However, it works differently if you also have Pounce. Tigers have both Pounce and Rake. So on a Pounce, the Tiger gets Bite/Claws x 4 for a total of five attacks.
So how does pounce work? Very well.
EDIT: Xaratherus is an edit ninja, apparently. Sneaky, sneaky, Xar ...
Look, a distraction!
*vanishes*
Very well is the answer you're looking for sir.
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My player's druid wild-shaped into a large tiger for the first time last session, and we became more or less instantly confused by pounce and rake. How exactly do these two abilities work together?
Does it give you:
1) 5 attacks on a charge (bite/claw/claw/claw/claw)?
or 2) 3 attacks on a charge (bite/claw/claw), with the two rakes taking the place of the regular claw attacks?
... or something else? Is there something else that needs to happen to qualify for rake attacks, or does it just happen automatically?
Pounce let's you charge, and do a full attack, with the +2 to attack from charging added to each swing. If you have a bite and 2 claws, you get that, then 2 extra claw attacks from Rake if that ability exists too. Pounce allows you to immediately Rake even before the whole "grapple" thing is eligible. If you have a bite and 4 claws, but no Rake ability listed, then you still get a bite and 4 claw attacks(because that's your full attack) on your foe.
Either way, that's 5 attacks on a pounce. Most cat forms, have rake with a bite/claw/claw, or just have bite/claw/claw/claw/claw(because they have 4 claws listed in the bestiary). Almost all cat forms will get 5 attacks on a pounce.
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Okay, so to get the most mileage out of it, my druid player needs to do something like this:
Round 1
Charge; full attack with a +2 bonus; bite/claw/claw/grab attemptRound 2
Assuming grab successful, full attack is bite/claw/claw/claw/claw. If not, it's bite/claw/claw/grab attempt, only without the +2 bonus.Right?
If the grab is successful, then both the tiger and the target are grappled, and that changes the whole ball of wax.
Personally, I rule that you cannot make a grab attempt on a rake attack, since the rules are unclear, but that is up to the GM.
But if the grab is successful, then the grapple rules go into effect: you get your grapple check, if successful whatever you want to do with your grapple (move, damage, pin, etc.), then the two rake attacks.
The rules here seem pretty straightforward...
"Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks."
5 attacks on the charge. If the fights are mobile, expect him to leave the fighter in the dust.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.I don't know...I think I have to disagree with you all.
I think pounce does let you use your rake attacks on the initial charge, but only if you establish a grapple during that attack.
So attack would be. Bite/Claw/Claw (makes grab check and succeeds) Add Claw/Claw from rake.
I think pounce only lets you skip the part about having to begin its turn already grappling to use.
Look at the portion I bolded. Rake does not say, "The only time you can ever use rake is when you grapple a foe." It says that you can only rake them under certain conditions, and the most common condition required to rake is when you grapple them.
If the intent were that you could only rake when grappling, then there'd be no need to include the "under certain conditions" line; instead, the first line would read, "A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples a foe."
The caveat on the Pounce ability is one of the alternative "certain conditions".
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Pounce expressly states you can rake. How is this a question?
The 'Under certain conditions' that rake is describing is the condition of grappling your target. And it says just that right after the coma 'when it grapples its foe'
What you're proposing makes no sense grammatically. You're saying that there is a condition - not conditions, but a singular condition - always required to rake. Again, if that were true, the "under certain conditions" line is wholly unnecessary, and in fact is inaccurate since it implies that there are multiple conditions that allow you to rake while you argue that there's one condition that is always required.
And Zhayne, I do agree that pounce lets you rake on a charge, but I believe that you need to be grappling to use them. Just like the rule clearly states.
Consider the following
1) The pounce ability specifically says you can rake on a charge and does not specify "if the grapple attack is successful"
2) The velociraptor deinochus dinosaur has pounce but no grab.
3) Rake specifies that the animal has to start the turn with the creature in a grapple to start the rake attacks (which if its not getting the rake from the pounce doesn't make any sense becaue it can't start the turn grappling and then charge)
I can't see any ambiguity at all here.
I'll just add this question onto this thread, as it pertains to the topic slightly. If I have Weapon Focus(Claws), do I gain the bonus on my Rake attacks as well? They're called "rake attacks" but are also specifically called out to be "claws".
1. It doesn't have too because its already written in the rake rules.
You're the only one seeing it there.
So pounce needs to specifically negate that hyphenated line to allow the rake on the charge.
It does so. Very specifically.
2. Velociraptor Show me where it says this animal has pounce? And even if it did, it doesn't have rake either.
Deinonychus
Starting Statistics
Size Small; Speed 60 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 11, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 14; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
7th-Level Advancement
Size Medium; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d8), bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4) Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks pounce.
Speed 60 ft.
Melee 2 talons +5 (1d8+2), bite +5 (1d6+2), foreclaws +0 (1d4+1)
Special Attacks pounce
3. Not sure what your trying to say. Pounce says you can use rake and full attack when you charge. I'm just following the rake rules at the same time and not just throwing them out the window.
Exactly. Do that. Now note that rake says
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
The way you insist on reading it pounce doesn't negate the need to start the turn in a grapple either, meaning you can never rake on a pounce.
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I'll just add this question onto this thread, as it pertains to the topic slightly. If I have Weapon Focus(Claws), do I gain the bonus on my Rake attacks as well? They're called "rake attacks" but are also specifically called out to be "claws".
Alistus, yes you should. A Rake Attack is just 2 more Claw attacks.
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Consider the following
1) The pounce ability specifically says you can rake on a charge and does not specify "if the grapple attack is successful"
2) The velociraptor deinochus dinosaur has pounce but no grab.
3) Rake specifies that the animal has to start the turn with the creature in a grapple to start the rake attacks (which if its not getting the rake from the pounce doesn't make any sense becaue it can't start the turn grappling and then charge)
I can't see any ambiguity at all here.
1. It doesn't have too because its already written in the rake rules. And the reason it specifies that you can rake on a charge is because the last line of rake states "—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn." So pounce needs to specifically negate that hyphenated line to allow the rake on the charge.
2. Velociraptor Show me where it says this animal has pounce? And even if it did, it doesn't have rake either.
3. Not sure what your trying to say. Pounce says you can use rake and full attack when you charge. I'm just following the rake rules at the same time and not just throwing them out the window.
I'm not sure if you're trolling at this point or not.
The rules are there, and it's VERY clear. If you don't want to accept it, then don't. Forego extra important attacks for yourself, or piss off one of your players. Fine by me : P
90% or more of the population of this forum would agree you get the Rake upon using Pounce. 1 Bite, 4 total Claw attacks(usually). Remember how Columbus said he could find a faster trade route than the Mediterranean sea to get to Asia? Well, he was wrong; and everyone saying he was wrong, was correct. He did discover a new land that he claimed as America though(or New America) :)
I was getting ready to provide the stats to the deinonychus. That's the stats used for a 'velociraptor' previously, even though it's not really.
We always referred to it as a velociraptor as well, but with that creature's actual addition in Bestiary 4 it now gets confusing, heh.
And let me point out, a saurian Druid with that as his form is freakin' nasty.
But what it doesn't let you do is ignore the rules for actually using rake
I understand you perfectly. I still disagree with you.
YES, it does let you ignore the rules for using rake, even the way you read it. Even the way you read it you have to ignore the section on rake that says A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
If you are taking the wording of rake as the more specific text then it wouldn't work with pounce at all...it says you must begin the round grappling the target to rake it
If you start a grapple with pounce you cannot rake at the same time
Pounce gives you a FULL ATTACK when you charge which allows you to include the rake attacks...it does not say anything about having to grapple your target...you don't even have to read anything about the rake ability...don't even look at rake it's not needed when pouncing
All you have to know is that you get your full natural attack routine including the attacks listed as rake...no other information is needed
edit: Ninja'd by Wolf
You absolutely, positively, 100% DO NOT have to establish the grapple in order to get the rake attacks with pounce.
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
Reading is hard. Nowhere does it say "if you establish a grapple, then you can..."
Anyway, one thing to be absolutely clear on as well is that if your Druid is only 6th level and transforms into the tiger with POUNCE, that character does not yet have access to RAKE. That comes at 8th level. So, until then, POUNCE is just 3 attacks. At level 8, Pounce is 5 attacks.
Finally, Improved Natural Attack (Claws) applies to both the RAKE and the standard claw attacks.
But what it doesn't let you do is ignore the rules for actually using rakeI understand you perfectly. I still disagree with you.
YES, it does let you ignore the rules for using rake, even the way you read it. Even the way you read it you have to ignore the section on rake that says A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Here is where your logic fails: POUNCE is a special charging attack. If you are charging an enemy, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE THEM IN A GRAPPLE ALREADY.
So, unless you know how to grapple an enemy, and then charge them the next round while remaining grappled, I would probably think you were on to something. However, I'm pretty sure this isn't allowed in the rules. As such, they wrote pounce (a special charge) that allows RAKE attacks.
If you want to make a house-rule, that's cool. But, the rules are written pretty clearly.
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You are wrong Darthslash.
This is a clear case of the "specific overrides general" rule. Pounce specifically states that you can use your rake attacks as part of a charge. Nowhere does it say you have to grapple to do it.
Here is a post by James Jacobs saying it works exactly like everyone else is saying it does.
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If you want to have more fun grab Rhino Charge
Now you can ready and full attack.
Another option is to grab IUS and Dragon Style so you can charge through allies and difficult terrain.
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The rule for pathfinder is specific supercedes general. Rake is a general rule. Pounce has a specific rule that supercedes it.
I don't know why people are arguing this hard over this ruling. Do you have a dog in the fight? Are you upset one of your players is doing well? Do you just want someone to say, "no it doesn't work that way," so you can lord it over your friends?
The rule for pathfinder is specific supercedes general. Rake is a general rule. Pounce has a specific rule that supercedes it.
I don't know why people are arguing this hard over this ruling. Do you have a dog in the fight? Are you upset one of your players is doing well? Do you just want someone to say, "no it doesn't work that way," so you can lord it over your friends?
Because
Reading is hard. Nowhere does it say "if you establish a grapple, then you can..."Maby for you, not for me. Pounce may allow you to skip the rules about having to start your turn maintaining a grapple to use rake, but everything else in rake says you need to be grappling your opponent to use rake. So I will stick with my interpretation of the rule until the developers answer my question in a FAQ.
Which you can feel free to tag the faq for my question if you like. But don't start being rude when you can't prove my way isn't correct anymore then your way is.
Darthslash
Pounce doesn't give any indication you get to ignore the 'must start in a grapple' to use rake. You are saying conditions must still be met for rake (e.g grapple) while selectively ignoring other parts of what the rake ability says (must start in a grapple). Given pounce makes no mention of altering either of these we are left with two options.
1) Pounce is useless in regards to rake as you can't start the in a grapple and charge that same opponent.2) Or pounce supersedes the normal conditions required for rake.
Given that only one of those makes any sense....
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Whenever you polymorph into an animal with the pounce and rake special attacks, and attack using pounce, do you get to add the rake attacks automatically, or do you still need to establish a grapple during this attack action to add the rake attacks?
Darthslsh
submitted for faq
Staff Response: No Response Needed.
I suggest you read The Rules FAQ, and How to Use It post. It's stickied at the top of the Rules Forum.
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So I will stick with my interpretation of the rule until the developers answer my question in a FAQ.
This attitude is part of the reason why we don't get timely FAQ responses. If the PDT is swamped with FAQ requests that don't need to be FAQ requests, they have to waste their time sifting through bogus requests.
You are the only person in this thread that holds your position, despite the overwhelming evidence produced to show how your position is incorrect, and yet you sit there entrenched "just because".