The Paladin of Freedom Thread


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Under the core Pathfinder rules, paladins are restricted to the Lawful Good alignment and will fall if they commit an evil or unlawful act. However, some players utilize the variant paladin rules from the "Unearthed Arcana" sourcebook from 3.5. Unearthed Arcana featured alternative paladins of Freedom (Chaotic Good), Slaughter (Chaotic Evil, which is now the purview of Pathfinder's antipaladin), and Tyranny (Lawful Evil).

In my opinion, the paladin of freedom is a pretty cool alternative to the vanilla paladin and could provide a distinct experience. Being a champion of individual rights and resistance against tyranny, the PoF doesn't have to worry about unlawfully mowing down slavers and instigating peasant revolts. There's also a whole world of possibilities when it comes to the deity you chose to represent: you can be a roguish paladin of Cayden Cailean, a whimsical paladin of Desna, a rebellious paladin of Milani or a highly unconventional paladin of Azathoth (!). Gameplay wise, they get immunity to compulsion effects instead of fear.

However, the PoF has it's own code of conduct:

D20pfsrd wrote:

Code of Conduct

A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

Associates: While he may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin of freedom will never knowingly associate with evil characters (except on some sort of undercover mission), nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of freedom may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic good.

Hmmm...this could be an issue. Let us consider two hypothetical scenarios...

1) A paladin of freedom rescues a villager from thugs. However, the villager wants to report the incident to the guards. The PoF can't let him do that, however...because he can't let people use his help for "lawful" ends.

2) A paladin of freedom defeats a villain who then surrenders to her. She can't take him back to the proper authorities for imprisonment, because that would be lawful. She can't kill a surrendering man, because that would be evil.

I can predict that some GMs would treat the PoF just as bad as the standard paladin, if not worse. It's possible that the PoF's code of ethics is even more contradictory then it's Lawful Good counterpart.

What do you think?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I counter with the war priest. Your martial holy warrior of any alignment and behavior you like, now with 6th level spells.


2cp: I like the direction you're going, but I think this would be more interesting to play (for me) if his code of conduct was based on a specific deity, and the portfolio of the deity, rather than trying to shoehorn multiple deities into a single pally variant that focuses on something as arbitrary and general as alignment.

For instance, a paladin (or a cleric, for that matter) of Cayden Cailean should, perhaps, have a code of conduct that reflects the actual interests of the god:

Portfolio:
Freedom
Ale
Wine
Bravery

Domains:
Chaos
Charm
Good
Liberation
Strength
Travel

Paladins that actually have a code that furthers the interest of their patron deity are more work to conceptualize, but the also don't fall every time they spit on the sidewalk.


Claxon wrote:
I counter with the war priest. Your martial holy warrior of any alignment and behavior you like, now with 6th level spells.

We haven't seen the final version of it. It may end up being a suitable "paladin" alternative, but even now we know things that paladins can do that the warpriest can't.

aboniks wrote:

2cp: I like the direction you're going, but I think this would be more interesting to play (for me) if his code of conduct was based on a specific deity, and the portfolio of the deity, rather than trying to shoehorn multiple deities into a single pally variant that focuses on something as arbitrary and general as alignment.

For instance, a paladin (or a cleric, for that matter) of Cayden Cailean should, perhaps, have a code of conduct that reflects the actual interests of the god:

Portfolio:
Freedom
Ale
Wine
Bravery

Domains:
Chaos
Charm
Good
Liberation
Strength
Travel

Paladins that actually have a code that furthers the interest of their patron deity are more work to conceptualize, but the also don't fall every time they spit on the sidewalk.

Whoa, Cayden has six domains!? I never realized that.

But yeah, I agree. I think GMs really need to take the god that a paladin worships into consideration: what Ragathiel or Torag tolerate might not fly for Sarenrae or Shelyn.

Shadow Lodge

For purposes of the post, the LG paladin (paladin of justice) = PoJ and the paladin of freedom = PoF. "Paladin" refers to either.

In general it's important to hold the PoF (and any CG character) to the principle that your freedoms end where my rights begin - otherwise they can't prevent the BBEG from killing babies because that would interfere with the BBEG's personal liberty to kill babies. No one has the personal liberty to hurt or oppress other people. Restraining an aggressor is not curtailing personal liberty.

Also, "lawful" is about more than what the local law says. Obeying the law isn't always lawful and disobeying the law isn't always chaotic.

Quote:
1) A paladin of freedom rescues a villager from thugs. However, the villager wants to report the incident to the guards. The PoF can't let him do that, however...because he can't let people use his help for "lawful" ends.

This is like saying that a PoJ is not allowed to save an escaped slave who has been attacked by wild beasts, because the slave will use that help for the chaotic ends of escaping slavery. It doesn't make sense, so the code is not being interpreted properly in either case.

The first problem is that we're making "obeying local laws" equivalent with "lawful," when in fact the paladin puts their personal ideals first - and those ideals do not respect any authority or liberty that allows one to harm innocents.

Secondly, I read that line in the PoJ code as saying that the PoJ is not required to help those who will directly use that help for aims contrary to their alignment (eg not required to help a thief evade capture), not that they are forbidden to help someone who might thereafter perform evil or chaotic acts because of that help. In particular, the PoJ must be permitted to aid a person who will use that aid for chaotic ends when refusing that aid would be an evil act (or otherwise break other parts of the code). Otherwise it's a little ridiculous because a PoJ doesn't fall for performing a single chaotic act, but they do fall for being an accessory to a chaotic act.

Quote:
2) A paladin of freedom defeats a villain who then surrenders to her. She can't take him back to the proper authorities for imprisonment, because that would be lawful. She can't kill a surrendering man, because that would be evil.

Firstly, a PoF doesn't fall for committing a single lawful act (just like the PoJ doesn't fall for a single chaotic act). He is permitted to turn over a villain to authorities if the alternative would be performing an evil act - particularly if he recognizes that in this particular case the authorities are better equipped to deal with the villain.

The PoF may also, in a campaign that would allow a PoJ to act as judge, jury, and executioner, personally judge and execute the villain if indeed the villain's evil is worthy of death and the villain is unlikely to be redeemed. (Many campaigns rule that the death penalty is not evil and that paladins are authorized to deliver such punishment - indeed, their code directs them to punish those that harm innocents, potentially personally.) In fact, in some cases the PoJ is discouraged from personally executing prisoners due to lawful concerns (do I have the authority to judge this person) rather than good ones (is this actually the most merciful course of action for all concerned, including the prisoner - noting that a PoF may believe imprisonment and trial are just adding pain on top of an inevitable execution).

The PoF may also, if a redemptive sort, personally take the surrendered villain under their wing, show them the way to redemption, and help them make amends for their deeds - defending them if necessary from others who seek retributive rather than restorative justice and want the repentant villain executed as punishment.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Axial wrote:
Whoa, Cayden has six domains!? I never realized that.

They eratta'ed (or FAQ'd I don't remember which) it out to be only 5, giving up Liberation. Since apparently Boozing and Whoring (aka Charm) was more important to him than the liberation of the Oppressed... As you can tell, I'm not all that pleased with this change, especially since I tended to play down the whole Drunkenness aspect of him, and focus more on his freedom aspect, even going as far as hinting that his drunkenness is actually more of a facade, so gods like Asmodeus devalue him as "that drunken idiot" allowing him to promote more good and freedom, without coming into too much direct conflict with Asmodeus or his worshipers.


I played a Paladin of Freedom in 3.5 and we never had any sort of conflict as you describe.

I played her almost as an ennobled hippy, preaching peace, love and personal freedom whilst simultaneously fighting against unjust laws. The key word being unjust. If the local laws seemed fair then she would grudgingly submit to them for the greater good.

As has been demonstrated on this board many time, people have problems with Paladins and their ethics, taking them to the extreme. I've an experienced player in my group who is several steps down that path - he believes that there is no grey area or bigger picture, the sort of thinking that leads to Paladins being unable to assault the evil warlord's tower because it has a 'No Trespassers' sign on it.

Look at the bigger picture. If the local town has an elected council that works for the well-being of the inhabitants, then their laws are probably worth tolerating. If the town is a dictatorship run for the well-being of the rulers, then the laws are probably worth fighting against.

Liberty's Edge

I allow both LG and CG Paladins, and both LE and CE Antipaladins. Yes, that means some Gods have both (though others only have one variety...I don't think Azathoth has Paladins).

I honestly don't change the mechanics at all (aside from replacing Lawful spells with their Chaotic equivalents or vice versa). CG doesn't strike me as less brave than LG, and LG doesn't strike me as more easily controlled by the forces of Evil than CG.

Paladins have immunity to fear because they're the light that the forces of Good shine into dark places, because they're out on the 'sharp end' not because they're Lawful.

As for code of conduct, I'd agree that it varies by individual God...and for the more generic version I would say that a direct reversal of the standard Lawful Paladin prohibition against Chaotic ends is...a bit antithetical to the whole 'Chaos' thing. I'd go with something like this:

"A paladin must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect the freedom of others, as long as it doesn't cause harm to people other than themselves, keep an open mind and not allow habits of thought and behavior to dictate your actions (not listening when someone tells their side of the story because you've already made up your mind, refusing to try something new and seemingly harmless when offered, refusing to accept someone based on their race or non-Evil religion, customs, or sexual practices, etc.), help those in need, especially if their need is protection from the law (provided they do not use the help for evil ends, such as to avoid arrest for unjustified murder), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents, even (or especially) if the law says they are untouchable."

So...less prohibitions on poison or lying, but they're obligated to keep an open mind, defend any thief who says "Hide me, please." and exact vigilante justice if they feel a real monster is getting away with it. It's as little longer, but hell, I'd have expanded a bit more on the examples in the standard code if I'd written that...


Silly OP... Don't you know that playing (or even suggesing) non-LG Paladins is badwrong fun?

What? You don't?

Don't worry. I'm sure a bazillion different posters will tell you soon enough... If they haven't already...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

Silly OP... Don't you know that playing (or even suggesing) non-LG Paladins is badwrong fun?

What? You don't?

Don't worry. I'm sure a bazillion different posters will tell you soon enough... If they haven't already...

Luckily, they're not running my game and therefore, their opinion doesn't matter.

On another note, I just want to point out that there's a lot of smart people in this thread and I value their contributions.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

Silly OP... Don't you know that playing (or even suggesing) non-LG Paladins is badwrong fun?

What? You don't?

Don't worry. I'm sure a bazillion different posters will tell you soon enough... If they haven't already...

For all of the paladin arguments I've slogged through here, I've rarely heard an argument that it was bad for a player and GM to agree on playing an alternate paladin code. Frankly, the process of brewing it would likely result in a more harmonious play experience.


If you want to know how a Paladin of Freedom will act, just ask yourself, "what would this guy do"?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tholomyes wrote:
Axial wrote:
Whoa, Cayden has six domains!? I never realized that.
They eratta'ed (or FAQ'd I don't remember which) it out to be only 5, giving up Liberation. Since apparently Boozing and Whoring (aka Charm) was more important to him than the liberation of the Oppressed... As you can tell, I'm not all that pleased with this change, especially since I tended to play down the whole Drunkenness aspect of him, and focus more on his freedom aspect, even going as far as hinting that his drunkenness is actually more of a facade, so gods like Asmodeus devalue him as "that drunken idiot" allowing him to promote more good and freedom, without coming into too much direct conflict with Asmodeus or his worshipers.

Given that Caydean is a god who apparantly stumbled through his Test in a drunken haze, It seems rather appropriate to think of him as Divine Idiot, or if one wants to be charitable... a divine Jackie Chan.

Also Liberation really does seem rather heavily covered already between Milani, Desna, Arshea, Khepri, and a couple of others.


Welcome to 'Another reason Paladin codes are bullcrap' thread.


Always wanted to play a paladin of Milani. Just seems like great fun.


Do not take this the wrong way.

Every time I see a thread like this though, I keep wanting to add #MURICA to it.

...and then hand the paladin a skin-tight leotard and tiny shield.


There seems to be a lot of discussion of the Law/Chaos axis for Paladins, ignoring that a huge amount of the class is focused on doing good. I've never seen an NG Paladin proposed, for example (a Paragon?).

While it could be argued that this sidesteps much of the conflict between good and duty that makes Paladins interesting, it'd also avoid the differing interpretation of codes between some players and GMs that can cause friction. It might also discourage Lawful Stupid roleplaying. There are already NG gods that have Paladins (Sarenrae), so perhaps some leeways should be allowed on the Law/Chaos scale for their followers.

It is a pretty easy fix to use Warpriests for CG gods for the moment though. They're not mechanically identical, but the flavor works just fine.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Corvino wrote:
There seems to be a lot of discussion of the Law/Chaos axis for Paladins, ignoring that a huge amount of the class is focused on doing good. I've never seen an NG Paladin proposed, for example (a Paragon?).

Sentinel, actually. It was written up in Dragon magazine. Not really a fan of the things it traded out, but it would be great for a demon/devil focused campaign.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ah, ah! The NG Paladin is the Myrikhan. A good description would be 'Holy Ranger'.

==Aelryinth


NG paladin right here


It shouldn't be too hard to make a generic paladinoid.

The spell list is the union of the paladin and antipaladin spell lists with any missing law/chaos spells added. Alignment restrictions on spells are in effect. (This is a very slight upgrade to the base paladin since they get non-evil antipaladin spells, but IMO not worth quibbling over.)

other feature swaps are based on alignment with neutrals making a choice the same way neutral clerics do.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:
Ah, ah! The NG Paladin is the Myrikhan.

Only if you're old and stuck in the past. :P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Indeed, describes me well! Must be why I like PF so much! It caters to crochety old farts with its many, many cliches.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hey, crotchety old farts are the ones with disposable cash to be fleeced- I mean, catered to!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Yeah, them disciples of Mammon at Paizo are clever ones, I'll give them that! Keep sucking the gold right out of me...

==Aelryinth


Axial wrote:

1) A paladin of freedom rescues a villager from thugs. However, the villager wants to report the incident to the guards. The PoF can't let him do that, however...because he can't let people use his help for "lawful" ends.

2) A paladin of freedom defeats a villain who then surrenders to her. She can't take him back to the proper authorities for imprisonment, because that would be lawful. She can't kill a surrendering man, because that would be evil.

I disagree with the premise that the paladin would so fervently resist any form of authority to the extent that she would disallow a villain to be arrested or that oppressed peasants could not report to thee town guards. The paladin has stopped those who harm and oppress others, and that is the most important thing. Would this paladin enter a town where a form of authority exists? What you seem to be suggesting is as one-dimensional as the "lawful-stupid" paladin we often hear about on the message boards. Just as the paladin of honor can't go around murdering any creature that registers as evil, the paladin of freedom must live in the "real world" - one where authority exists. Stopping the peasants from reporting to the authorities would be like oppressing them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

No quarter is a viable option for anyone who is chaotic. Being the sword of justice doesn't mean courts of law and bureaucracy. he doesn't have to accept the surrender. "Die like a dog!" is completely appropriate for a CG paladin...or a LG one tasked with defeating such a foe in circumstances.

As for guards...guards don't have to be 'lawful'. Don't you alert friends and neighbors of threats? Aren't guards also friends, neighbors, defenders of the community? If you can manipulate hidebound lawful types into doing your work for you, any dyed in the wool chaotic would be chortling gleefully at the irony of it.

Contrived circumstances have holes. And the wonderful thing about being chaotic is you can have all sorts of extremely viable personal, independent reasons for doing something that have nothing to do with being lawful or helping the law.

==Aelryinth


I've always viewed Lawful as being driven by Discipline and Chaotic as being driven by Pride. Discipline, I define for this purpose, as "Doing what you ought to do, whether or not you want to." Conversely, this can also include, "Not doing what you ought not do, whether or not you want to". So a Lawful Good character would act for the good of people because that's what he ought to do; whether he likes the person or not, he'll act for Good. Pride is the converse; doing what you want to do, whether or not you ought to. A Chaotic Good character who wants to help a person will help that person regardless of whether or not it's his responsibility to do so. Conversely, he will not do something that he doesn't want to do, also regardless of duty or responsibility.

What this means is that, while a PoH feels duty-bound to do Good (and, typically, comes to like doing Good as a result), a PoF wants to do Good, not as a matter of duty but he rides his pride on it. The PoF will turn the criminal over to the authorities under the expectation that he will get a fair trial and that any punishment is meant to lean him away from Evil; that he will be given back his freedom at some point. If he goes to hand the criminal over and finds that the criminal will be locked up for life or simply executed out of hand, he'd probably feel obligated to take charge of this criminal personally and not hand him over.

Shadow Lodge

One thing to remember about a PoF would often exist in circumstance where authority could not be trusted and is the enemy. V, at least movie V and 80s BBC Robin Hood might be good characters to model a PoF on. character might have different skills then the standard paladin such as stealth and bluff.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Chaotic doesn't mean proud. Chaotic means independent. You are your own master and you make up your own mind, you don't blindly follow anyone you don't know and distant leaders issuing decrees don't mean anything if they aren't around to enforce their nonsense...in which case, you assert your right to impose your freedom back on them!

Pride is a classic sin, so describing it as part of Chaos isn't really appropriate. Independent is more appropriate and neutral.

==Aelryinth


Pride is a classic sin in one specific Earth religion. But, besides that, what can drive the sense of being one's own master and trusting your own mind over the opinions and analysis of others better than Pride? Remember, this is just the mindset that drives your actions; the engine of the car, if you will. Lawful types are driven by a sense of duty; Discipline. They see Pride as getting in the way of what needs to be done. Chaotic types are driven by ego; Pride. They see Discipline as getting in the way of what they want to do. Good and Evil are the destination. If you're good, you take on the duty to do Good or you want to do Good. If you're evil, you take on the duty to do Evil or you want to do Evil. And it's often reciprocal; a LG person wants to do good as much as it is their Duty to do good and a CG person may have a sense of Duty to good that matches their desire to do good; they put their pride on the line. The LG who dies protecting others views himself as a martyr; I'll die to protect these people. The CG who dies protecting others, on the other hand, with his pride at stake, says, "I'm not gonna lose... if I go down, I'm taking you with me."

Neutrals, on the other hand, have no driving sense of duty nor of pride. They do what they can and are more likely to cut their losses and run if things start to turn sour. NG people run soup kitchens and become doctors and take care of war orphens. They're not big "super-hero" good guys like your LG Superman or your CG Robin Hood; they're the Good Samaritan who does good on a much smaller, but intimate and personal level. They're not focused on the Good to do at the destination but the Good that can be done right by the side of the road.


Sadurian wrote:
I played her almost as an ennobled hippy, preaching peace, love and personal freedom whilst simultaneously fighting against unjust laws. The key word being unjust. If the local laws seemed fair then she would grudgingly submit to them for the greater good.

A true paladin (I do not acknowledge non-lawful good characters as genuine paladins) would be standing beside your character fighting an unjust law, as it is a perversion of the purpose of law, which is to uphold the good.

If she "grudgingly" submitted to them for the greater good, doesn't that mean she, deep down, acknowledged that law had its valid purpose and place in society—that just laws served the good?

Sounds like she was neutral good, to me.


Kazaan wrote:
Pride is a classic sin in one specific Earth religion.

Two spring to mind: Christianity and Islam.

Shadow Lodge

Jaelithe wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Pride is a classic sin in one specific Earth religion.
Two spring to mind: Christianity and Islam.

I thought they were the same religion, just with different prophets.

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Pride is a classic sin in one specific Earth religion.
Two spring to mind: Christianity and Islam.
I thought they were the same religion, just with different prophets.

Speaking as a believer in neither...that's grossly untrue on several levels. They're both Abrahamic religions descended from Judaism, sure, but they aren't the same thing at all.


Well, there are schools of thought that consider Islam a Christian heresy, whether either side wishes to admit it or not.

Generally, Christians and Muslims both find this perspective ... ahem ... objectionable. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
They're both Abrahamic religions descended from Judaism, sure, but they aren't the same thing at all.

Ah, that's what I was thinking of. Haven't studied either in any real depth.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually if you study the core precepts of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam have a lot more in common with each other than either does with Christanity. One major thing that both of the former object to, is slicing God into three parts.

Also keep in mind that the cult ran by the twelve original Apostles, which was essentially one of many Hebrew cults, some of them also Messianic in nature, becomes something very different when Paul of Tarsus enters the picture, who essentially changes it into a Gentile focused religion to the point that the original Nazarenes are virtually thrown out. Christianity might be more properly named.. Paulinanity.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Pride is considered a fatal weakness in many eastern philosophies, too, because it blinds you to your own weakness.

Pride is a VERY lawful thing: Our way is best, don't question it, is a hallmark of Law, especially Lawful Evil, and Pride is the defining sin of Lucifer and Asmodeus; they knew best. A LE society is basically built on Pride, with "I am better then you are" applying to everyone below you in status, and everyone of the society better then all foreigners.

Chaotics don't have to be proud; they just have to not want obligation, which is completely different. Being free of the ties that bind societies together is a big motivation for Chaotics, and has nothing to do with ego and 'knowing best'. Indeed, many Chaotics don't think they know 'best', they only care 'what's best for ME'.

Neutrals can have INTENSE family bonds, and those basically replace much of the 'duty' with connections to friends and family. Law goes with connection to state/society overriding these, Chaotics consider themselves before friends and family, and friends and family before society.

Pride and duty have nothing to do with these. A Chaotic can feel an intensive duty to keep his word as part of his personal code of honor; Lawful people are often extremely proud of their way of life and dismissive or contemptuous of all others.

Thinking Neutrals are all moderates and can't be extremist is another wrong-foot, as LN's for example, can be extremely merciless to those outside of their society, NE's can be extremist death dealers out to kill the world, CN berserkers can love conflict for the sake of conflict above all else, and NG people can unite all Good people under one banner to undertake a war on evil, using whatever methods work best at the time.

==Aelryinth

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / The Paladin of Freedom Thread All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.