Paizo maps and BannersOnTheCheap.com

[Tinalles]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this. If not, would a mod please move it to the correct spot?

I've been having the local copy shop print maps from RotRL for my group for some time. It's been my understanding that Paizo's fine with printing stuff out for use with your group, since that is after all the point.

Last night, I found a site called Banners On The Cheap, which prints vinyl banners up to fairly large sizes. As promised, it's cheap. And they got a very good review from a gamer who tried printing some battlemaps.

I'm very interested in trying this service out, but -- because I am crazy -- I read their Terms of Service in full, and there's a problematic clause in section 4.1:

Quote:

You do not lose ownership of the Content that you design on, or upload to, the Web Site. By uploading Designs to the Web Site or creating Designs with Banners on the Cheap's design tools, however, you grant the following licenses to Banners on the Cheap: the nonexclusive, worldwide, transferable, sublicensable right to copy, crop, reproduce, publicly display, sell, and distribute the Design in or on Products and in advertising, marketing, samples, and promotional materials for the purpose of promoting the Web Site and Products; and the right to make modifications to your Design as Banners on the Cheap, in its sole discretion, finds necessary to achieve the above listed purposes.

Emphasis added.

I'm pretty sure I don't have the right to grant them a license to use Paizo's maps in their advertising. Does this mean I cannot use this service with Paizo materials?

I hope my reading is wrong. It looks like a very promising service for cheap, durable, mark-able maps. I'll certainly try it with maps that I've made myself, but it would be very nice to have the ability to use Paizo's stuff too.

While I'm at it, hey Paizo, have you considered partnering with these people to produce flip-mats? Maybe you could hammer out a deal that would leave a price point low enough to make it economically feasible. I know I'd rather have a nice rollable vinyl map than a folding cardboard-ish one that always needs to be weighted down a the corners to lie flat.

[HangarFlying]

I would lean towards being safe and say that because you don't have the authority to grant such a request, you would then be unable to use their service.

Good job reading the fine print, btw.

[BigDTBone]

It is an odd inclusion for their TOS anyway. I ran a business to business print company for several years and it seems to me that the company here doesn't expect anyone to print a banner that won't be used for advertising. The OP is a one off case of someone who wouldn't be pleased for their banner to appear out in the open on the web. I also suspect that the printer wouldn't wish to use it because the folks in their target demo wouldn't be as readily able to relate to it.

[Tinalles]

Well, crap. There go my dreams of vinyl maps.

I guess I could manually recreate all the maps in the AP I'm running just so I could get them printed out on vinyl. But that's a STAGGERING amount of work, which kind of undermines the point of buying a professionally made adventure in the first place.

So I guess it's back to laminated paper, which is more expensive and harder to store. Sigh.

EDIT: I can't let this go. I've just emailed the Banners on the Cheap people to ask if they can waive that part of their TOS for third-party images to which the customer holds a non-transferable license. If they can waive that, then it'll work.

[TimD]

Interesting.
Please let us know if they are willing to waive that requirement.

... and good find on both the site and the TOS issue!

-TimD

[Eric Clingenpeel]

This looks quite interesting. I'm eager to hear their reply.

[Wolfwaker]

Maybe look into ArtsCow? They print mousepads and bar mats and stuff like that for very reasonable prices. (Also custom decks of cards.) Downside is they are in Hong Kong so it can take 3-4 weeks to get it.

[Tinalles]

They got back to say they'd forwarded my request to their legal people. I'll keep you posted.

Also, apparently their customer support is the "Customer Love Team". Judging by the number of exclamation points in the email, this team is composed entirely of hyper-enthusiastic teens. Friendly, but a little over-the-top.

[Andrew Betts]

Check out eSigns.com I've had stuff done through them and I'm good friends with a couple of the employees, they do good work and last I knew they didn't have any screwy wording.

[Hobbun]

I’m going to be running Rise of the Runelords in the near future and actually would like to print some of the maps out on a nice vinyl material (like the Chessex grid map).

But my question is the PDF accommodating for that? If I take my RotRL pdf to a print shop, will they be able to chop up the pages (showing only the map), blow it up for 1”=5’ scale and get rid of the room numbers?

[BigDTBone]

Hobbun wrote:

I’m going to be running Rise of the Runelords in the near future and actually would like to print some of the maps out on a nice vinyl material (like the Chessex grid map).

But my question is the PDF accommodating for that? If I take my RotRL pdf to a print shop, will they be able to chop up the pages (showing only the map), blow it up for 1”=5’ scale and get rid of the room numbers?

A good print shop could do that, but it will cost. Usually $1/minute is the going rate for editing time like that. Probably 10-15 minutes editing per map.

[Cpt_kirstov]

Hobbun wrote:

I’m going to be running Rise of the Runelords in the near future and actually would like to print some of the maps out on a nice vinyl material (like the Chessex grid map).

But my question is the PDF accommodating for that? If I take my RotRL pdf to a print shop, will they be able to chop up the pages (showing only the map), blow it up for 1”=5’ scale and get rid of the room numbers?

Our PFS group has someone who works at the staples print shop. They have been doing exactly that for PFS scenario maps, but printing them on blueprint paper. So most print shops should be able to do it,

[Hobbun]

Ok, thanks all.

Now, I did call a local print shop and asked the same thing, and she said it depended on if the PDF is ‘locked’ or not on whether if they could do it, if it needs a password to access editing capability. But she said she would need to see the PDF first.

[Tinalles]

I've been doing the rescaling myself to save on costs. It's not all THAT difficult. Here's the procedure I use:

1) Put the PDF in a folder by itself.

2) Open the PDF in Nitro PDF Reader.

3) Click the "Extract Images" button in the Nitro toolbar. This will dump a copy of every image in the entire PDF into the folder the PDF is in. There will be a lot of them.

4) Go through and delete images I'm not interested in, e.g. page backgrounds etc.

5) Rename the map images to file names that make sense.

6) Open a map in Paint.net, GIMP, Photoshop, or other suitable image editor.

7) In the event that something needs correcting -- like maybe there's a secret door symbol that got accidentally burned into the map or something -- correct it now using a Clone Stamp tool or similar. This is fortunately rare.

8) resize it according to Jonathan Roberts' post on rescaling maps for VTT use. I usually set the resized image at 100 DPI for printing purposes. Scaling it up further won't do anything but increase the file size without adding any detail.

8) Save the file.

9) Take it to the print shop and tell them it's ready to print as-is. Be sure to tell them that it needs to be printed at 100 DPI.

It's not THE most straightforward process, but it works. I tend to process all the maps from one book at a time. Then they're ready to go when I need to get them printed.

Also, be sure to check and see if there are higher-resolution fan maps available. Certainly for Rise of the Runelords there are a number of those in the Community Created Stuff thread. Tintagel's version of Foxglove Manor is spectacular, for example.

[Hobbun]

Thank you so much Tinalles, this is a GREAT help!

Although part of the issue is a lot (and I think all) of the maps have room numbers, and where that is useful for me to reference in the book, I don’t want to have them on the battlemat.

Can I use Clone Stamp to edit that out, as well?

Will need to take a look at Tintagel’s Foxglove Manor, that was one of the locations I wanted to print up as it is a bit cumbersome (large) to use Dwarven Forge tiles.

Another location I would like is the outside area of Thistletop, which includes the forest area and surrounding water. I wasn’t able to find a good one of that (with grid) in the community created maps, unless I missed it.

Edit: I found Tintagel’s Foxglove Manor maps and they do look great. The only problem is they don’t have a grid.

[Gwen Smith]

Tinalles wrote:

They got back to say they'd forwarded my request to their legal people. I'll keep you posted.

Also, apparently their customer support is the "Customer Love Team". Judging by the number of exclamation points in the email, this team is composed entirely of hyper-enthusiastic teens. Friendly, but a little over-the-top.

The original clause sounds like a standard "we can add the banner we made for you to our portfolio and show pictures of it on our website" clause. I don't read that they are actually trying to take ownership of the underlying artwork.

That said, there's still the problem of "you can't grant rights that you don't own", and they will need to have some kind of response to that, just in general.

Also, don't be surprised if any print shop asks you for the permission statement from Paizo saying that you can use their artwork for this purpose. It's probably a good idea to have a printed copy with you and a link to the website source.

[Krensky]

Hobbun wrote:

Thank you so much Tinalles, this is a GREAT help!

Although part of the issue is a lot (and I think all) of the maps have room numbers, and where that is useful for me to reference in the book, I don’t want to have them on the battlemat.

Can I use Clone Stamp to edit that out, as well?

Will need to take a look at Tintagel’s Foxglove Manor, that was one of the locations I wanted to print up as it is a bit cumbersome (large) to use Dwarven Forge tiles.

Another location I would like is the outside area of Thistletop, which includes the forest area and surrounding water. I wasn’t able to find a good one of that (with grid) in the community created maps, unless I missed it.

Edit: I found Tintagel’s Foxglove Manor maps and they do look great. The only problem is they don’t have a grid.

Adding a grid is fairly trivial in both PS and GIMP. Which are you using?

Also, for those who don't mind a little arts and crafts to save on getting stuff printed as banners, check out PosteRazor. It takes a (raster) image file and outputs a PDF of it in standard paper sizes. A little effort with a cutting implement and adhesive (or spray mount and a big presentation board) gets you a map as large as you need from a standard printer.

[Hobbun]

Krensky wrote:

Adding a grid is fairly trivial in both PS and GIMP. Which are you using?

I'm actually not using anything at the moment. I've just started the process of trying to get some of RotRL maps printed in large, battle-mat format (1"=5'), and really have no experience with making adjustments for maps.

I planned to go by Tinalles post and try out what he recommended.

I really have no idea though how to go back and forth from the PDF to GIMP (PS=Photoshop?) back to a PDF. As I said, I have no experience in doing any of this.

[Laithoron]

Another point about extracting images from PDFs. Frequently, the room numbers and comments are added on a layer separate from the actual graphics.

For example, when I extracted Sandpoint from Pathfinder #1, yes, the location numbers were on the map itself. However, when extracting the dungeon maps from Crypt of the Everflame, the resulting images have no room numbers or labels of any kind. (And yes, PS = Photoshop.)

Now since you are speaking specifically about Runelords, it might be that the PDF maps in the anniversary edition are assembled in a more printer-friendly fashion. However, it might be nice to have someone who owns it confirm such before shelling out for it. Can't help you there.

EDIT: As for adding grids, if you have Photoshop I'd be happy to offer up a template that makes it easy to add attractive map grids, but the technique I use didn't work in GIMP the last time I tried.

[Krensky]

Any of the three image programs will work for adding a grid, but the how is different for them.

To go from the PDF to image you'll need a program to do so. Either one built into a PDF viewer or a stand alone one. That's the Nitro PDF Reader mentioned.

Then you'll open the image file you want in your image editor of choice, crop it, resize, etc as you need. Then you'll save the file back to a raster format like JPEG or PNG. In GIMP this is called exporting. You can also export to PDF either natively (Photoshop, GIMP) or by using a PDF writer like PDFCreator, Acrobat, Foxit, Nitro or whatever. Alternatively, you can use a program like posterazor to split the image file into multiple smaller pages, so instead of having to print out a four by three banner you can just print out 12 tabloid pages, then cut of the margins and tape/glue/mount them together. If you're just glue sticking or maybe taping, you can then have kinkos run it through their large format laminator.

As a side note, the poster map folio poster maps laminate beautifully for like $8 if memory serves, letting you use dry and wet erase markers and Crayola's dry erase crayons, which are awesome.

Now as for the three prograams he listed, paint.net is free and the simplest, it should feel like MS Paint with more tools and features. Its windows only though. Photoshop is stupid expensive but is very slick and massively capable. Last I checked you can still get it for Mac. GIMP is free, pretty much as capable as Photoshop, and runs on Windows, OSX, Linux, Solaris, and BSD. Probably others.

[Krensky]

Laithoron wrote:

Another point about extracting images from PDFs. Frequently, the room numbers and comments are added on a layer separate from the actual graphics.

For example, when I extracted Sandpoint from Pathfinder #1, yes, the location numbers were on the map itself. However, when extracting the dungeon maps from Crypt of the Everflame, the resulting images have no room numbers or labels of any kind. (And yes, PS = Photoshop.)

Now since you are speaking specifically about Runelords, it might be that the PDF maps in the anniversary edition are assembled in a more printer-friendly fashion. However, it might be nice to have someone who owns it confirm such before shelling out for it. Can't help you there.

The interactive maps export clean, as did the images in the Anniversary Burnt Offerings LITE.

[Hobbun]

A lot of great info here, I actually forgot about the interactive maps. I bought a hardcopy version of the map folio, but haven’t bought the PDF version.

I think I will do that and try the suggestions here.

Thank you!

[Tinalles]

For the most part, the room numbers are not burned into the map -- they're on a separate layer of the PDF. So when Nitro PDF pulls the image out, the room numbers get left behind.

That seems to have been standard practice for Paizo from pretty early on. I'm using the 3.5-era RotRL PDFs, and haven't had trouble with them. I've run some later ones with more trouble -- in The Harrowing, the location called "The Manmolds" had a bunch of secret door symbols burned into the map that had to be edited out (that's been reported now). But as a rule, they're pretty clean.

I've been mapping for the last two years for a homebrew campaign I'm running. It takes place online, via MapTool, which creates an insatiable need for maps. I use a wide variety of software:

1) Photoshop. I shelled out the $600 for this, and I use it for most serious map-making/editing. Note that it's crazy expensive and has a pretty steep learning curve. Photoshop makes impossible things easy, and easy things impossible.

2) Paint.net. Free and WAAAAAY simpler to pick up than Photoshop. More limited, but still reasonably capable. I still find myself using it on a regular basis for simpler adjustments.

3) Inkscape. This is not something I do a whole lot of mapping in -- it's a vector graphics program. Instead, I often use it for creating basic curvy shapes and things. Then export as regular bitmap images so I can paste them into Photoshop and use them as masks or similar.

Stuff to be aware of if you use Paint.net:

1) It's free, but for Windows only.

2) Their site has an annoying percentage of fake "download" links that are actually dumb ads, so be careful what you click.

3) There are a bunch of free plugins for it. The Grid/Checkerboard maker plugin is particularly helpful for when you need to add a grid to a map.

[Krensky]

Personally, I use GIMP and Inkscape along with PosteRazor for printing since I'm running face to face. Sometimes I make use of LibreCAD, but that's not really for beginners.

Inkscape actually gets the most use for making pawns similar to the Pathfinder paper miniatures (not the Pathfinder Pawns). I have svgs for the templates if anyone's interested.

GIMP has a similar learning curve to Photoshop, but it is free. So are Inkscape, PosteRazor, and LibreCAD for that matter.

[Tinalles]

Yeah. GIMP is a good program. The UI drives me nuts, though.

Of course, the last time I seriously tried it was 10 years ago on a rather obscure variant of Linux. It might be better now.

[Laithoron]

Krensky wrote:

Then you'll save the file back to a raster format like JPEG or PNG.

While JPEG might be ok for a final onscreen-only presentation, if you intend on editing files, and sending them to a print shop, do NOT use JPEG. JPEG uses "lossy" compression which means that every time you save your file, it becomes more and more degraded. You'll want to stick to "lossless" formats like PNG or TIFF.

Krensky wrote:

The interactive maps export clean, as did the images in the Anniversary Burnt Offerings LITE.

Nice. Thanks for testing that! :)

[Cpt_kirstov]

Also, the map numbers are a different layer of the map.... easiest is to use a map extractor (I have the link to the one I use in my profile) to pull each layer as its own file, and then take just the layer you want to the printer.

[Krensky]

Laithoron wrote:

Krensky wrote:

Then you'll save the file back to a raster format like JPEG or PNG.

While JPEG might be ok for a final on-screen only presentation, if you intend on editing files, and sending them to a print shop, do NOT use JPEG. JPEG uses "lossy" compression which means that every time you save your file, it becomes more and more degraded. You'll want to stick to "lossless" formats like PNG or TIFF.

I should have specified that. I was referencing JPEG because beginners are more likely to know what a JPEG is over a TIFF or PNG.

[Laithoron]

Fair enough, I've just seen too many people confused because they think all file extensions are the same. Figure it saves a few headaches for those getting started to point out possible pitfalls when possible.

Even better is the rage I've seen from printers who receive files saved in RGB instead of CMYK. ;)

[Tinalles]

I'm inclined to think JPG is fine for images extracted from Paizo PDFs, for these reasons:

1) They're JPG-formatted inside the PDF. That information loss has already occurred. Changing it back to PNG or TIFF won't get that data back.

2) Maps scaled up from 21.4px per inch to 100px per inch are going to be fairly blurry anyway, just due to resizing. The JPG compression won't be even remotely noticeable unless you crank the compression up to ridiculous levels.

If you're designing a map from scratch, a lossless format is the way to go for print.

JPG for use in virtual table tops, though, because a PNG is going to take way longer to download. For example, this map is about 912 KB in size as a JPG at 66% compression. The identical map saved as a PNG from the original PSD file is 4 MB -- just over four times as large for very similar visual quality.

I wish the Banners on the Cheap people would get back to me.

[Gwen Smith]

Krensky wrote:

Adding a grid is fairly trivial in both PS and GIMP. Which are you using?

Also, for those who don't mind a little arts and crafts to save on getting stuff printed as banners, check out PosteRazor. It takes a (raster) image file and outputs a PDF of it in standard paper sizes. A little effort with a cutting implement and adhesive (or spray mount and a big presentation board) gets you a map as large as you need from a standard printer.

FWIW, Visio, Publisher, and Illustrator can do tiling like this automatically, as can several PDF readers. There's a decent chance the "management software" that came with your printer (as opposed to just the driver) can handle this, too.

[Laithoron]

Tinalles Let's not confuse editing formats with output formats. Just because information loss has already occurred doesn't mean that we want to go making it worse as we go about editing it.

As far as usage on a VTT though, yes, doing a "Save As" to JPEG for the final output should be just fine — best practice is to resume editing from the lossless file if we have to make any changes.

[BigDTBone]

Laithoron wrote:

Fair enough, I've just seen too many people confused because they think all file extensions are the same. Figure it saves a few headaches for those getting started to point out possible pitfalls when possible.

Even better is the rage I've seen from printers who receive files saved in RGB instead of CMYK. ;)

They need better equipment :-/ If they are good enough to notice then they should be good enough to use the appropriate fiery (or whatever print management software they choose) tools to map out color changes which are troublesome for their equipment.

[BigDTBone]

21.4 pixels/inch? Eeeew. That would look terrible at correct scale on a monitor.

[Gwen Smith]

Tinalles wrote:

JPG for use in virtual table tops, though, because a PNG is going to take way longer to download. For example, this map is about 912 KB in size as a JPG at 66% compression. The identical map saved as a PNG from the original PSD file is 4 MB -- just over four times as large for very similar visual quality.

Really? Wow. Maybe I've just never gone below 80% compression or something, because I've never once seen a PNG be larger than a JPEG--most of mine are 1/5 to 1/10 the size for the same pixel dimensions.

Are those both flattened exports? And the same size and resolution?

[Tinalles]

Fair enough.

EDIT: And Gwen, it's a matter of what type of image you're compressing. JPEG compression is good for things with lots of soft, blurry edges. Photographs, naturalistic scenery. PNG is good for things with relatively large areas of solid color. I'll upload the PNG version in a minute so you can compare.

EDIT 2:

And here they are:

Forest Pond with grid as a JPG at 66% compression: about 912 KB.

Forest Pond with grid as a PNG (24-bit): about 4 MB.

Both images were generated from the same PSD file using Photoshop's Save for Web interface.

An 8-bit PNG would have reduced the file size by decreasing the number of colors in the image to a palette of 256 colors. I didn't save that one, but it still came out larger than the JPG: 1.35 MB compared to 912 KB.

Lossy compression algorithms have their place. It's worth playing around with the compression options to see what gives you the best balance between image quality and file size.

[Hobbun]

Tinalles wrote:

I've been doing the rescaling myself to save on costs. It's not all THAT difficult. Here's the procedure I use:

1) Put the PDF in a folder by itself.

2) Open the PDF in Nitro PDF Reader.

3) Click the "Extract Images" button in the Nitro toolbar. This will dump a copy of every image in the entire PDF into the folder the PDF is in. There will be a lot of them.

I went and downloaded Nitro Reader and opened up the "Interactive Maps" for Rise of the Runelords. Unfortunately I got this message:

The PDF could not be extracted due to internal security preventing content extraction.

I even tried to do it with one of the chapters from the AP (Burnt Offerings) and received the same message.

:(

[Tinalles]

I've gotten that notice a couple of times, but I've always been able to clear it by just closing Nitro and re-opening the file.

If that doesn't work, it could be that they changed the behavior in more recent versions -- I haven't updated mine in a while. I'm on 3.5.4.10. You could always try an older version. A quick Google search shows several sites for older versions of the software. Here's one.

Alternatively, just open it in Adobe Reader and select the map by clicking on it, then copy and paste into your graphics editor. This works most of the time. The reason I prefer Nitro is that 1) it gets the occasional map that's a background image rather than a selectable foreground image, 2) it grabs everything all at once, and 3) it preserves the partially transparent pixels at the edges of NPC pictures, which no other reader I've found does.

[Hobbun]

Tinalles wrote:

I've gotten that notice a couple of times, but I've always been able to clear it by just closing Nitro and re-opening the file.

If that doesn't work, it could be that they changed the behavior in more recent versions -- I haven't updated mine in a while. I'm on 3.5.4.10. You could always try an older version. A quick Google search shows several sites for older versions of the software. Here's one.

I’ll give an older Nitro Reader a try tonight and see if it works. If not, then maybe I’ll try scanning in my maps from my map folio. Although I know if you do that, the room numbers would be burned in and couldn’t be extracted.

However, if I opened up a map through an editor (like GIMP or paint.net), would I be able to edit out the room numbers?

Also, if I scanned a map in, are there specific settings I should put the scan in at? Like DPI, etc?

[Krensky]

There are other image extraction tools, just do some googling.

[Papa-DRB]

Try SomePDF. It has an image extractor program. Just be careful during the installation, as it asks to install other stuff, so read the installation screens and uncheck as necessary.

-- david

[Deanoth]

PDF Image Extraction Wizard works well too and it is what I use for PFS scenario's and PF Adventure Paths.

[Hobbun]

Papa-DRB wrote:

Try SomePDF. It has an image extractor program. Just be careful during the installation, as it asks to install other stuff, so read the installation screens and uncheck as necessary.

-- david

I am going to try an earlier version of Nitro Reader first, but if that doesn’t pan out then I will give SomePDF a shot.

Deanoth wrote:

PDF Image Extraction Wizard works well too and it is what I use for PFS scenario's and PF Adventure Paths.

Have you used it with the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary AP? Interactive Maps and the AP itself?

[Deanoth]

Hobbun I have used it with many AP's Itself and they all extracted perfectly. As far as the interactive maps.. the few I have used them on... they have worked well... though extracting from the AP file itself was easier in some ways. So, I would use it if I were to make a suggestion! :)

[Tinalles]

Ah ha! BannersOnTheCheap.com got back to me. Here is what they had to say:

Banners on the Cheap Support wrote:

Happy Sunday! I hope you've had a great weekend. I heard back from our legal team who let me know that we will flag the order as a "do not reprint

or use for marketing purposes" and asked that I let you know that we are aware of situations like this and it is completely acceptable for you to
deliver us the file and have it printed under your limited license! Woohoo!

Yay! The rep went on to ask that I inform her when I put in the order to make sure it gets flagged. I'll give it a whirl and see how it goes.

[Steve Geddes]

That's pretty remarkable, really. I was sure they'd say something lawery that meant no. Good for them (and you for checking in the first place).

[HangarFlying]

Awesome. Post a link of pictures of the finished product so we can see how they turn out.

[Orthos]

Huzzah!

[Hobbun]

Deanoth wrote:

Hobbun I have used it with many AP's Itself and they all extracted perfectly. As far as the interactive maps.. the few I have used them on... they have worked well... though extracting from the AP file itself was easier in some ways. So, I would use it if I were to make a suggestion! :)

Great, really glad to hear it has worked well. :)

I haven’t had a chance to really do anything more this past weekend as I was rarely home, but will try to download PDF Image Extraction Wizard sometime this week. I will let you know how successful it is.

And as for why I was asking for the Interactive Maps, what I like about them is most of the maps actually fill the 8 ½” x 11” pages, where in the AP the maps are even smaller as they normally are sharing pages with text, as well. So there is less to scale up with the Interactive Maps, and therefore I would think less blurry.

Edit: And Tinalles, yay on the permission! As HanarFlying requested, post a link to pictures showing your eventual finished product.

[Majuba]

FYI - Adobe Reader 8.0 works extremely well for getting the unmarked images.

We did come to the conclusion that BannersOnTheCheap's language does not allow using them, yes?