Stonelord (Paladin) playing with evil characters


Advice


In my new campaign of RotRL, there is at least one evil character (and potentially a second one to be added soon). Was just looking for some advice on how to best handle evil actions as a lawful good character as I am new to this alignment with this particular character. I want to stay true to my character/alignment, but also don't want this to descend rather quickly into me fighting my other party members. I know the DM will help out with this (especially if a second evil character gets added), but am just looking for any and all suggestions on how to role play/handle evil characters in this situation.

Thanks!


Playing a LG guy, and more so a paladin, can be hard if you have evil PCs in your party. First thing you should check out-game is if they have any inclination of making your life difficult.

I've had games where evil guys and paladins worked together quite well. The paladin didn't know the other one was evil and the evil guy did evil things mainly to make the paladin's life easier. "Don't mind that, I'll take care of this problem while you go to your temple and pray."

And I've had games in which THAT kind of CN (I'm not evil! I've CN written on my sheet) did his best to cause trouble and make life "interesting" for the paladin player until he (the player) just decided to ignore everything the jerk's pc did.


I'm not sure if it is possible.

But, if you want to try it:
1. Characters below 5th level and which are not clerics or paladins won't be picked up by Detect Evil, so you will not see it.
2. If they do no evil things in your sight, don't go out of your way to find out about it.
3. Speak with the other players beforehand. Try to find out what kind of conflict they are okay with and at which point they say "No". Do the same thing and ask that yourself.
4. Try to educate their characters instead of smiting. If the DM wants to help, he should be lenient with your code to allow you to say this: "I know they are not really nice people, but under my watch they are helping innocent people and won't do bad things."
5. Be prepared to either retire your character or force them to retire their character if things go sideways.

Fun fact: Problems can even arise in the same alignment bracket. In our RotRL-campaign, our Abadar Cleric was not very happy with my triggerhappy Gunslinger and our pyromaniac Sorceror for burning down a mill. We were good, but with very little regard for the Law.


This is helpful. They know I am LG and, I get the impression at least, the LE gunslinger in our party tries to do stuff without me seeing. The one thing that happened in the first part of the adventure had us in a jail about to question a goblin that was captured. Now, both my character and the LE character have a dislike for goblins built into our backstory (even though the LE gunslinger is a hobgoblin), but after asking him some questions, I turned to another party member and heard a gun shot. The gunslinger shot the prisoner. I reacted how I thought I should (tried to apprehend the LE and pass him off to the authorities, but they let him go), but I can see this happening more and more as we go on. Especially if the second evil character joins as it is a friend who mentioned two of the things he was looking into were Antipaladin and something to let him go into Souleater.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on what I should do in general or how I should have handled the shooting differently?


I do not know the souleater but Paladin + Antipaladin can't work out. Ask him to build something else and tell him that next time he can choose first and you will find something that doesn't disrupt his pc.

First come first serve.


I figured it would be something like that with the Antipaladin since I have read that several places as well as, ya know, the name and stuff. Other thoughts on Souleater or general LG/evil character interaction?


IMO, you're doing a disservice to the paladin class by allowing him to 'look the other way', or work with the other players to let him 'not see it'. I know PF doesn't have the same stringent requirements as older editions did, but a paladin is a paragon of Lawful Good... they don't play nice with evil, and are often suspect even of neutrals. That doesn't mean he has to be a jerk, or stupid... but it intrisically violates his goals and purpose to adventure with evil on his side.

Just my 2cp, but on a strictly roleplaying side of the coin, that group should not work together, as they are at completely cross purposes.


I definitely did not plan on looking the other way or getting them to do stuff behind my back. I am not opting for an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to this at all. My god is Kols who is all about duty and keeping your oaths, so I cannot see me remaining in line with my god by shirking my responsibilities as a LG character.

Silver Crusade

Umbranus wrote:
I do not know the souleater but Paladin + Antipaladin can't work out.

As bad as a paladin/anti-paladin combination might be for a group, a souleater would be even worse. No Good character could stand idly by while a souleater does what they do. They emulate the most hated beings in the multiverse to commit the worst atrocity that can be committed in a fantasy setting.

Basically, if one looks at anti-paladins like demons.... Angels and devils work with demons to stop the creatures souleaters emulate.

Paladins and some diabolists are potential BFFs in comparison.

Whether you're going to have problems or not is going to depend heavily upon how and why that evil character is being played. Some evil PCs can work out with paladins and other good PCs wonderfully. Some, especially the "no really, I'm CN" types, can cause a game to crash and burn horribly.


Indeed. For what it's worth, if you can find it (I know I've seen it here, and on the web with a good search), Roger Moore wrote a great Dragon Magazine article called "It's Not Easy Being Good". There's some great advice about playing a paladin there - just ignore the AD&D references, and slot in any PF or campaign specific requierments.

Liberty's Edge

Yes, you need to have an OOC discussion, but you need to include your GM. You also need to ask some or all of the following questions: who made their PC first, you or the gunslinger? Why did the GM allow one when the other was already there? Were you (even unintentionally) being the jerk by deciding to play a paladin when there were already evil PCs in the party? Can you either change your play style to accommodate them, or do they need to play different alignments? Is the GM going to make you fall for associating with evil? You're all playing this to have fun, and you're not going to do so if one side of this is going to be deliberately messing with the other.


Good to know. Esp the Souleater info...although the title gives a good sense of how evil they would be, its good to have that added context, so thanks Mikaze!

Also, just pulled up the Roger Moore article and will look that over before our next play through...thanks for that info too MichaelSandar.

I am actively talking with my DM about this to make sure nothing gets messed up by this. Here are the answers to your questions that I am able to answer right now DeathSpot:

DeathSpot said wrote:
who made their PC first, you or the gunslinger?

--I did...I made this one shortly into my last campaign and have been talking about it with the gunslinger (who is my roommate) for the 2-3 weeks leading up to starting these new guys.

DeathSpot said wrote:
Why did the GM allow one when the other was already there?

--Not sure

DeathSpot said wrote:
Were you (even unintentionally) being the jerk by deciding to play a paladin when there were already evil PCs in the party?

--Nope, made my guy first. I don't think either of the other guys in the group were trying to either though. We are very big on "play what you want" so people just lean more towards stuff interesting to them. Been talking with our DM about this a lot and sharing some of my concerns and stuff mentioned in this thread and I think he will just be up front about it with the group.

DeathSpot said wrote:
Can you either change your play style to accommodate them, or do they need to play different alignments?

--The only one in our group who needs to is me based on my class since I am a paladin.

DeathSpot said wrote:
Is the GM going to make you fall for associating with evil?

--Not sure


It's a good idea to have a group agreement about the level of acceptable player conflict.

In some games, the paladin would see the evil character doing something evil and immediately kill him and it would all be part of the fun.

In other games, the evil PC's player agrees not to act in a way that would force the paladin to take action, or the GM comes up with a reason why the two of you are forced to work together no matter how much you might hate one another.


ingenuus wrote:
Good to know. Esp the Souleater info...although the title gives a good sense of how evil they would be, its good to have that added context, so thanks Mikaze!

+1 to that.

slightly offtopic:

I stopped judging things by its name because of warhammer 40k. There the space marine chapters with the cruel/horrible names are supposed to be the "good" ones while the bad ones (aka chaos) has the normal names.

Blood drinkers, flesh tearers, doom legion, grief bringers, etc: good
Eperor's children, Alpha legion, iron warriors etc: evil

Sovereign Court

Easiest way to deal with Evil PC's when playing a LG Paladin is..."KILL THOSE EVILDOERS!" Paladins don't tolerate Evil, they cleanse it! After you kill them, request those players to roll Paladins to join your quest to slay more evildoers!

Some times you gotta put your big boy pants on and teach those Evil alignment picking players what "Smite" is used for. Hopefully this helps!


I had similar issues in a game when one side of the table wanted to play murderhobos, and another player wanted to play an inquisitor of justice. I don't use murderhobo as tongue in cheek. If you'd asked, they would have cheerfully said so.

My advice is, since they do want to play evil PCs to that degree...I would not make any goodly PC. This includes not just paladins, but clerics, monks, even fighters from play.

Go with at best, neutrally aligned.

This party is not set out to be heroic.

Sometimes you need to go with the group. Unfortunately for your initial concept, they went for a different sort of campaign than the one you'd intended to.

I would save the goodly PC and play him/her in a different campaign, and make a different PC for this one.


ingenuus wrote:

This is helpful. They know I am LG and, I get the impression at least, the LE gunslinger in our party tries to do stuff without me seeing. The one thing that happened in the first part of the adventure had us in a jail about to question a goblin that was captured. Now, both my character and the LE character have a dislike for goblins built into our backstory (even though the LE gunslinger is a hobgoblin), but after asking him some questions, I turned to another party member and heard a gun shot. The gunslinger shot the prisoner. I reacted how I thought I should (tried to apprehend the LE and pass him off to the authorities, but they let him go), but I can see this happening more and more as we go on. Especially if the second evil character joins as it is a friend who mentioned two of the things he was looking into were Antipaladin and something to let him go into Souleater.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on what I should do in general or how I should have handled the shooting differently?

Well, I guess u all are pals if not friends, so a solution can be found by diplomacy. Anyway, making evil characters knowing that a pally is already in game... well not the most logical thing. Your GM must have prevented him, and absolutely forbidden the anti-palli/souleater, for the team sake. The gunslinger can change slightly his/her alignement to LN, without any lost of features, your Stonelord can´t. Again, no more evil carachters on the party, less those classes made for being NPc´s like the Anti-palli and Souleater, because, Stonelord apart, they are problem in any standard party&campaings. Ryse of the runelords is aginst a great evil, so is better suited for good characters. Souleaters are more prone to side with them that going against.


Ruggs wrote:

I had similar issues in a game when one side of the table wanted to play murderhobos, and another player wanted to play an inquisitor of justice. I don't use murderhobo as tongue in cheek. If you'd asked, they would have cheerfully said so.

My advice is, since they do want to play evil PCs to that degree...I would not make any goodly PC. This includes not just paladins, but clerics, monks, even fighters from play.

Go with at best, neutrally aligned.

This party is not set out to be heroic.

Sometimes you need to go with the group. Unfortunately for your initial concept, they went for a different sort of campaign than the one you'd intended to.

I would save the goodly PC and play him/her in a different campaign, and make a different PC for this one.

A respetable option, really good in some circunstances, though the GM has the last word allowing or not an evil campaing. They aren't as funny as they look, things get boring too soon, one way or another. Plus, he said they are going to play RotRL, I don't see an evil party fit for it.


Umbranus wrote:
ingenuus wrote:
Good to know. Esp the Souleater info...although the title gives a good sense of how evil they would be, its good to have that added context, so thanks Mikaze!

+1 to that.

** spoiler omitted **

On your off-topic spoiler, can we really call anyone besides the Tau the Good Guys in that setting? Even then, calling them good might be a stretch


Ok, this is all really helpful. After talking to the group today online, I do not think the person who thought about going antipaladin and/or soul eater remembered I was a paladin, so that could end up being helpful. the gunslinger is still going to be LE though, so we will see how that plays out lol. I have told him a few times I may end up seriously having to kill him and he seemed surprisingly alright with it lol.

Sovereign Court

Awesome, I was in a 12 or so person campaign once and we ended up breaking into two somewhat equally sized groups which later set out to slaughter the other side and fight some of the evils besetting the world. Was a ton of fun.


ingenuus wrote:

In my new campaign of RotRL, there is at least one evil character (and potentially a second one to be added soon). Was just looking for some advice on how to best handle evil actions as a lawful good character as I am new to this alignment with this particular character. I want to stay true to my character/alignment, but also don't want this to descend rather quickly into me fighting my other party members. I know the DM will help out with this (especially if a second evil character gets added), but am just looking for any and all suggestions on how to role play/handle evil characters in this situation.

Thanks!

One very important aspect of Paladins is that they will often not associate with evil characters unless they must do so, and that they must seek casts of attonement on a regular basis to not fall.

However, this is only if the Paladin is aware that he is traveling with evil characters. If the evil characters are not divine casters then they do not detect as evil until they have 5 hit dice.

So, by level 5 the evil characters MUST have a Ring of Mind Shielding or either the Paladin must re-roll or the Evil character must re-roll or stop being evil.
Since the evil character can do something about concealing his alignment I'd be more opt to force him to re-roll instead of the Paladin if I had to make a choice.

So, Evil characters shall have a Ring of Mind Shielding BY level 5, or must either stop being evil or re-roll.

Kysune wrote:

Easiest way to deal with Evil PC's when playing a LG Paladin is..."KILL THOSE EVILDOERS!" Paladins don't tolerate Evil, they cleanse it! After you kill them, request those players to roll Paladins to join your quest to slay more evildoers!

Some times you gotta put your big boy pants on and teach those Evil alignment picking players what "Smite" is used for. Hopefully this helps!

The time has come, EVILDOER! *kills evildoers, and 3 other paladins show up* The invincible paladin party sallied forth!


ingenuus wrote:

In my new campaign of RotRL, there is at least one evil character (and potentially a second one to be added soon). Was just looking for some advice on how to best handle evil actions as a lawful good character as I am new to this alignment with this particular character. I want to stay true to my character/alignment, but also don't want this to descend rather quickly into me fighting my other party members. I know the DM will help out with this (especially if a second evil character gets added), but am just looking for any and all suggestions on how to role play/handle evil characters in this situation.

Thanks!

2cp: Sit down with your DM outside the normal game session and hammer out a code that your order of paladins has sworn to follow.

It seems like the vast majority of issues that arise with the class are a result of the DM and the player being on different sheets of music. Knowing exactly what your code is and keeping your character within its boundaries is going to be much simpler than constantly asking yourself "is this act not-quite-unevil-enough-to-not-kill-my-not-good-frenemy"?

The rest of the party should know your code as well, unless it has to be kept secret. As long as they know where the pally has his boundaries set, you should all be able to work together without worrying too much.

Second bit of advice, take it for what you will: You and the gunslinger should probably make backup characters. :) If one ends up killing the other, it could be better to have the survivor retire from the party and bring in some characters that can work together really well (maybe they know each other, are related, have teamwork feats)...switching up the dynamics around the gaming table after a party-breaking PvP scenario like that can definitely help shake off any lingering adversarial feelings.


aboniks wrote:

2cp: Sit down with your DM outside the normal game session and hammer out a code that your order of paladins has sworn to follow.

It seems like the vast majority of issues that arise with the class are a result of the DM and the player being on different sheets of music. Knowing exactly what your code is and keeping your character within its boundaries is going to be much simpler than constantly asking yourself "is this act not-quite-unevil-enough-to-not-kill-my-not-good-frenemy"?

The rest of the party should know your code as well, unless it has to be kept secret. As long as they know where the pally has his boundaries set, you should all be able to work together without worrying too much.

Second bit of advice, take it for what you will: You and the gunslinger should probably make backup characters. :) If one ends up killing the other, it could be better to have the survivor retire from the party and bring in some characters that can work together really well (maybe they know each other, are related, have teamwork feats)...switching up the dynamics around the gaming table after a party-breaking PvP scenario like that can definitely help shake off any lingering adversarial feelings.

def having a sit down with the GM to talk this through soon. thanks so much for the advice on the code and for the back up character suggestion...actually starting to look at that right now!


If worst comes to worst and I end up having to roll something new, does anyone have any suggestions on a front line, melee class that would do well in a battlefield control/protect your friends sort of way? I wanted to utilize reach weapons to keep folks safe from a distance while also doing decent damage.


My suggestions, looking through the code of conduct, and bolding what I see as important parts regarding your code of conduct as a Paladin.

Quote:

Code of Conduct:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

This could very well mean punishing your teammate. Make the DM aware of this. This is very important.

Quote:
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

So for the OP: If you're going to be working with an evil character in the party. The DM should do his best to make sure that whatever you're facing is going to be a greater evil, and the evil PC is going to have to not be more troublesome than whatever you're fighting. Otherwise you'll have to end it. Also, keep an eye out for any cleric who can cast an Atonement spell on you.

Quote:

Ex-Paladins:

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin.

The Pathfinder code of conduct/rules of becoming and Ex-Paladin, does not leave any grey area.

If you willfully commit an evil act. To any degree. In any way. For any reason save having your will taken away from you. You fall

If you violate the code of conduct (like not punishing your teammate). To any degree. In any way. For any reason. You fall.

So basically, best of luck to you OP, and best of luck to the evil PC in the party.

ingenuus wrote:
If worst comes to worst and I end up having to roll something new, does anyone have any suggestions on a front line, melee class that would do well in a battlefield control/protect your friends sort of way? I wanted to utilize reach weapons to keep folks safe from a distance while also doing decent damage.

As always, with these kinds of questions, I have 2 of my own.

1. What sources are you allowed to use at the table?
2. Are there any fluff considerations for your character that you would want to bring forward with your character's mechanics.


SUPER helpful post Squirrel_Dude...thanks! I will bring this to my DM too. In answer to your question, any sources are open for play. For fluff, I liked the idea of the Stonelord being extremely difficult to kill, but also having the potential for dmg as well. I wanted to play the role of "cork" for my party (which is more ranged right now). My plan with him was to have a shield/axe, but also a reach weapon/boulder helm for combat. Was hoping to focus on attacks on my turn, but do a lot of tripping for AoOs.

Does that answer your questions?


Indeed. Make sure the code of conduct you and your DM can agree on for your order/deity covers the basics restrictions that the class lays out.

I'd definitely get creative on how they're applied to your order though. If you go with just the basic stuff from the class description and don't account for the domains and interests of the god then it basically turns deities and their militant followers into interchangeable sprockets.

You've got a god with an emphasis on Duty. If your superiors in the order have commanded you to get something accomplished, but the only way to do it is to associate with unsavory allies...well...something to think about.


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Talk to the gunslinger, make sure he understands he is LAWFUL evil. Killing a goblin prisoner in cold blood isn't all that lawful (if I were him I would have shot him to death before the prisoner stage and claimed self defense). As you are LAWFUL good if he stays within the law and is a big jerk, theres not much a paladin can do about it. People get too hung up on the G and the E and don't pay enough attention to the C and the L. For instance the gunslinger could shoot someone whom you knew as a good person right in front of you after provoking that person, turn to you and surrender, get off scott free with the local law enforcement due to your testimony (hey you can't lie) and smirk at you the whole time. Playing LE with a paladin is a can of cake, just watch out if he decides to fall to end you.


ingenuus wrote:

SUPER helpful post Squirrel_Dude...thanks! I will bring this to my DM too. In answer to your question, any sources are open for play. For fluff, I liked the idea of the Stonelord being extremely difficult to kill, but also having the potential for dmg as well. I wanted to play the role of "cork" for my party (which is more ranged right now). My plan with him was to have a shield/axe, but also a reach weapon/boulder helm for combat. Was hoping to focus on attacks on my turn, but do a lot of tripping for AoOs.

Does that answer your questions?

Pretty much. You want to play a dwarf, using mostly traditional dwarf weapons, to play the role of battlefield control/tripping fighter. That should be fine.

First, if any source is allowed: I'm going to recommend either a Warblade or Crusader from Tome of Battle because they're really good, if sometimes a little finicky to properly convert to Pathfinder. Until Path of War comes out though, they're undoubtedly two of the best classes available for doing melee really well without the aid of spells.

Keeping with Paizo products: If you want to keep with the divine flavor, then a Warpriest (Advanced Class Guide) or an Inquisitor might be more up your ally. The Warpriest is a bit tankier out of the box, but the Inquisitor is a fully finished class, if a bit less resilient. If you just want to be a fighter doing tripping things, then the Lorewarden fighter is probably your best bet.


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This is why GMs should not allow evil and good characters in the same party.


Ha, my bad Squirrel_Dude...I meant any Paizo. Thanks for the suggestions though. I will def look into them!


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
This is why GMs should not allow evil and good characters in the same party.

The issue is less alignment and more the retardulously restrictive Paladin's Code and similarly retardulous power-loss mechanic.


Or, the issue is one of allowing evil murderhobos into a game where the other players want to be heroes. It's not just paladins who object to evil, after all....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeremias wrote:

I'm not sure if it is possible.

But, if you want to try it:
1. Characters below 5th level and which are not clerics or paladins won't be picked up by Detect Evil, so you will not see it.
2. If they do no evil things in your sight, don't go out of your way to find out about it.
3. Speak with the other players beforehand. Try to find out what kind of conflict they are okay with and at which point they say "No". Do the same thing and ask that yourself.
4. Try to educate their characters instead of smiting. If the DM wants to help, he should be lenient with your code to allow you to say this: "I know they are not really nice people, but under my watch they are helping innocent people and won't do bad things."
5. Be prepared to either retire your character or force them to retire their character if things go sideways.

Fun fact: Problems can even arise in the same alignment bracket. In our RotRL-campaign, our Abadar Cleric was not very happy with my triggerhappy Gunslinger and our pyromaniac Sorceror for burning down a mill. We were good, but with very little regard for the Law.

I always keep special attention on players who priortize the Chaotic Alignments. Many attempt to use the Chaotic handle to severely bend the limits of their "Good" or "Neutral" side.


Jeremias wrote:

But, if you want to try it:

1. Characters below 5th level and which are not clerics or paladins won't be picked up by Detect Evil, so you will not see it.

Question about this specific piece. Once we hit level 5, does that mean I know he is evil and then have to address it (provided I have not seen any evil actions prior to that)? I know that may be more of a GM question, but just looking for your thoughts?


"Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."

"Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Straight from the Core Rulebook on associates for paladins

So imho as long as you dont help your party do something chaotic or evil while trying to stop it and your party doesnt threaten or harm innocents you have no reason to punish them unless they succeed in doing it with you trying to stop it, and you shouldnt fall.


I think your DM is making a mistake in allowing Evil alignments.

Play more or less the same PC, but make him a Inquisitor. LN.


"Kols (LN), known to his faithful as "Oath-Keeper", is the dwarven demigod of duty. His personal duties are following and serving his father Torag and protecting his brother Grundinnar. He is also the deity tasked with exacting punishment on those poor souls who shirk their responsibilities or break sworn oaths and solemn promises."

Definitely get with your GM on this. Yes, you're playing a paladin, and so that comes with some restrictions. On the other hand, the god you worship could just as easily have LE clerics that follow him. It makes no sense to assume that you couldn't work with one of your gods own clerics...who could be the one casting an atonement for you.

IMO, you really need a code of conduct specific to the deity for this situation. If working with this group in order to achieve a goal for Kols is part of your duty, then there needs to be some thought put into the code.

2cp: Always take the deity alignment and their domains into account before deciding what one of their followers should/would be expected to do.


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aboniks wrote:

"Kols (LN), known to his faithful as "Oath-Keeper", is the dwarven demigod of duty. His personal duties are following and serving his father Torag and protecting his brother Grundinnar. He is also the deity tasked with exacting punishment on those poor souls who shirk their responsibilities or break sworn oaths and solemn promises."

Definitely get with your GM on this. Yes, you're playing a paladin, and so that comes with some restrictions. On the other hand, the god you worship could just as easily have LE clerics that follow him. It makes no sense to assume that you couldn't work with one of your gods own clerics...who could be the one casting an atonement for you.

IMO, you really need a code of conduct specific to the deity for this situation. If working with this group in order to achieve a goal for Kols is part of your duty, then there needs to be some thought put into the code.

2cp: Always take the deity alignment and their domains into account before deciding what one of their followers should/would be expected to do.

Initially, I was thinking that Kols and the fact that I am a Duergar could make my lawful evil look a little different. The example I gave my DM was the following. Duergar culture is built on slavery, so my PC, like other Duergar, has had slaves before. With him being a LG Stonelord (who I made, basically, a law enforcement character in his home city), he treats his slaves like a part of his family (since this slavery is based on the caste system in his society). Playing off that line of thinking, how would this sound as a code:

Oath wrote:
As a Stonelord of Kols, I swear to follow through with all oaths and duty laid before me for the betterment of my people. I am also tasked with finding all individuals who break their oaths or abandon their duty to my people. With the backing of Kols, I will bring them to justice at all costs to make things right.

That is very much a first stab at writing something up and, with me being new to LG, I am not sure if any of that is too far or doesn't fit into what a LG PC would live by. Either way, I just talked to the DM and we are going to talk more tomorrow. I would love some feedback on what I wrote above so I can have something to show him when we talk.

All the information shared so far has been tremendously helpful, so I appreciate the time everyone has taken so far!


ingenuus wrote:
Oath wrote:
As a Stonelord of Kols, I swear to follow through with all oaths and duty laid before me for the betterment of my people. I am also tasked with finding all individuals who break their oaths or abandon their duty to my people. With the backing of Kols, I will bring them to justice at all costs to make things right.

Good start definitely, looks like you have the duty portfolio pretty well covered.

Kols covers these domains...how could your code of conduct reflect them?

Law Domain: You follow a strict and ordered code of laws, and in so doing, achieve enlightenment. (whose laws are important to your order?)

Nobility Domain: You are a great leader, an inspiration to all who follow the teachings of your faith. (is leading by example sufficient for Kols?)

Be careful with words like 'justice'. This is where the DM conception of justice, and your (characters) conception of justice can cause problems. Make sure you're specific. Do you bring them to justice under the laws of their own land, the laws of the land you find them in, or the laws of your homeland?

Does your paladin belong to an established order? Who is your superior? How is your duty to the Kols reflected in your duty to the head of your order? Kols is all about duty, so maybe there's a list of duties that your character would be expected to perform in your society ? Do you have a duty to the political leadership? If a worshipper of Kols from another race/society/alignment needed your help, what is your duty in that case? Does your god come first, or your people?

Get an idea from the DM about the society you're coming from and the place that Kols has in it, and it'll be much simpler to figure out what your characters place is within it, and what Kols would require from you in return for a portion of his power.

It may be simpler to write a code rather an oath to reflect what Kols expects of you. Think 10 commandments style. Things you must do, and things you must not. When you're writing them, think about what they will mean in-game.

Obviously, 'thou shalt not kill' is one you can safely leave out. :)


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Super helpful Aboniks...thanks! Here are thoughts in response to some of your questions as well as a list of duties that I would love folks thoughts on. This is a mix of in game Duergar history, some flavor stuff I made up for this guy, a little inspiration from my favorite movie (at the duty part):

Stonelords are those Duergar chosen at birth to protect their people and carry out the will of Kols. The more they do the bidding of Kols, the more they start turning into living stone. This is the highest sign of enlightenment and a reflection of standing with the Stonelords.

When the Seven Patriarchs (leaders of Duergar in general) originally broke off from the Dwarves to worship Droskarr, the Seven were granted immortality by the dark smith. While this happened, a new order of both Dwarves and Duergar was formed. The Duergar version of this order, the Stonelords, had their leader granted immortality as well. Muradin, Son of Thrake, Lord Protector of Kols, Thane of Fellstrok is stone brought to life and the living will of Kols. All higher ranking Stonelords report directly to Muradin.

Kols speaks directly to Stonelords who have achieved a certain level of dedication to his cause. Grymlar (my PC) is at that point, so he hears directly from Kols. He also upholds his word to his order through obeying the decrees of Muradin.

Duties:
o Uphold the laws of Kols and your people at all costs (with my "people" being both followers of Kols and the Duergar in general)
o Follow the laws of all other people unless it conflicts with the will of Kols.
o Show no fear in the face of your enemies.
o Be brave and upright so that Kols will protect thee.
o Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death.
o Safeguard those unable to protect themselves.
o Show courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.
o Support the political leadership, but never stray from the teachings of Kols.

Thoughts?


The only one I'd be concerned about, (from the perspective of a player with evil characters in the party) would be:

o Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death.

The way this is written leaves you no wiggle room at all. Playing a pally isn't supposed to be an exercise in wiggling, of course, but there are some situations to consider that might lead you to rethink how you've got this worded:

What if telling the truth means you have to break an oath?
What if telling the truth puts your people/kingdom in danger?
What if telling the truth puts the weak at the mercy of the strong?
Can you refuse to answer a question?

Something like this might keep the spirit intact without putting you in impossible moral quandaries:

"Speak the truth without regard to personal danger."

Other than that I'd play it as it stands if the DM likes it. :)

You've got a good safety valve here, in that Kols will speak directly to you, and he's the ultimate arbiter of your code. This means that If a situation arises where you can't see a way forward without breaking part of your code, you can ask Kols (ie. the DM) and hopefully get an answer that will keep you from falling out of his favor.


Good call on the truth thing and I am glad you caught speaking to Kols part as that was what I was hoping for with that. Thanks for the suggestions...will show this to the DM ASAP!


You're welcome. Hope he's fun to play. :)


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Honestly, after the very first session it already seems super fun. We played earlier this week and I loved the change in play style due to the alignment and HAVING to stick to it. My other two characters have both been Chaotic Good (both looking a lot different), but this was definitely a challenge in the best way possible. As obvious as this sounds, playing LG adds a lot to my actual role playing experience in the game.

Silver Crusade

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The funny thing is that that code for LN Kols actually comes across as more goodly than allegedly LG Torag's code. ;)

Liberty's Edge

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The basic thing to hash out with your GM and the other players is whether they're going to try to make your paladin fall. If the GM is, you'll fall no matter what you try. Now, if you're okay with that, carry on. If not (and it seems that way from the tone of this thread), then you need to work out a compromise where you can play the PC you want and the other guys can play the PCs they want without too much conflict. If the other players are playing evil PCs so they can make a paladin fall, you might as well not bother playing a paladin...unless you want the challenge of trying to stick to the straight and narrow anyway. I wouldn't want to do that, but I'm not you. Anyway, talk it out before you play, and figure out what you - as a group - will find fun.


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ingenuus wrote:
Honestly, after the very first session it already seems super fun. We played earlier this week and I loved the change in play style due to the alignment and HAVING to stick to it. My other two characters have both been Chaotic Good (both looking a lot different), but this was definitely a challenge in the best way possible. As obvious as this sounds, playing LG adds a lot to my actual role playing experience in the game.

Honestly, this is the reason I love paladins: The roleplay. You're a bit limited in what you can do, so working within your code while still working with your teammates and not drifting off to the infamous "Lawful Stupid" position can be an amazingly fun challenge. Plus, perhaps it's just me, but I love playing characters who have conflicting reasons behind their actions. A paladin who feels very devoted to his (sometimes questionable) friends but at the same time wishes to serve his deity and at the same time feels a sense of duty to their nation can be a very conflicted character, and a very fun one... especially if said character is a half-orc who has problems keeping the anger in, and goes out of his way to do so.

Also, I love playing intelligent, pragmatic paladins: A bit less heavy on the 'honor' stuff, but wholly dedicated to saving lives and trying to turn evil individuals toward the cause of good; dedicated to the point of spending every waking hour figuring out how to become a better warrior, diplomat, and strategist, just so that less lives will be lost in the next conflict.


Mikaze wrote:
The funny thing is that that code for LN Kols actually comes across as more goodly than allegedly LG Torag's code. ;)

I thought about that too. Didn't want to suggest trying to go too far into the weeds with the DM. This code is already fairly far from a PF standard paladin (if all you look at is the class feature, anyway).

If ingenuus could sell the DM on a straight up LN pally code, that would be even more interesting to play, I think.

Not knowing the DM, I went for the baby-steps approach. :)

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