So I understand that CR is based on PCs having stats based on 15pt buy. I saw a post a while back for 3.5 that recommended to increase the monster stats based on the point buy that the PCs had. The recommendation was to calculate the average point buy (in case of rolled stats) and then if 30+ to increase all the monster stats by +2. If over 40+ to increase all stats by +4.
Is this recommendation still valid for pathfinder?
So I understand that CR is based on PCs having stats based on 15pt buy. I saw a post a while back for 3.5 that recommended to increase the monster stats based on the point buy that the PCs had. The recommendation was to calculate the average point buy (in case of rolled stats) and then if 30+ to increase all the monster stats by +2. If over 40+ to increase all stats by +4.
Is this recommendation still valid for pathfinder?
You could do that. It might work. Another thing could be to throw CR +1 or +2 encounters at your party more often.
It depends on how competent your party members are. I usually run a 25 point buy with my players, and I almost always compensate the monsters by giving them the advanced simple template. BBG's also get full HP, and even then it's not always enough.
Squirrel: The issue with that is then the PCs advance more quickly because of increased CP gain.
Valantrix: So just looked at the advanced template...the rebuild rule looks pretty much as i suggested before..
Squirrel: The issue with that is then the PCs advance more quickly because of increased CP gain.
Valantrix: So just looked at the advanced template...the rebuild rule looks pretty much as i suggested before..
*shrug* Unless you're doing an Adventure Path, that shouldn't be an issue. Higher level characters means that there is a larger variety of monsters you can throw at them. If you're doing an adventure path, just award them the expected amount of experience. If you're only changing the encounters to be stay equivalent with the party, there isn't any reason to increase the reward.
When I modify the monsters in an adventure, I don't give the PC's any extra gold or experience to make up for it. Even then, my players still cruz through most encounters without a hitch. It's expected in an adventure path for PC's to rest after 4 to 5 encounters, but mine usually last twice that long before resting. It's not like I pull punches either, I've been doing this for over 35 years and I've killed my fair share of PCs. My players are just really savvy and tactically oriented. Modify until you feel comfortable.
Adding the advanced rebuild, or even the advanced simple can make things work better. My group likes playing rocket tag with encounters and I have learned not to fight it.
There are other templates you can add as well, just don't increases the rewards.
A Party built on greater than 15 point buy is APL+1. Adjust encounters to that.
Mirroring what everyone else already said: start out with making the encounter a +1 CR, by increasing monsters stats, applying templates, or including more of monsters. I suggest a mix of the three, changing it up for each encounter, until you find what works best for you and your particular collection of door smashers.
Follow that with practice& experience with your group. For one group I ran, a 25 point buy was standard, and CR appropriate challenges were just fine. Another crew had a 25 point buy, and mauled everything that wasn't CR+2 without a noticeable expenditure of resources.
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Giving the PCs higher stats and then modifying every encounter to give the NPCs higher stats to keep the balance unchanged sounds like a tedious waste of time. Why not give the PCs 15-point buy if you think that's balanced for the AP?
Design Manager
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Giving the PCs higher stats and then modifying every encounter to give the NPCs higher stats to keep the balance unchanged sounds like a tedious waste of time. Why not give the PCs 15-point buy if you think that's balanced for the AP?
15 point buy affects different classes to extremely varying degrees. It's crippling for monks and other MAD classes, and no biggie for SAD classes like Oracles and Wizards. Opening up the point buy / roll spread allows a wider of range of characters while generally equalizing their effectiveness. Everyone's a little bit better, but the SAD characters don't gain nearly as much as the MAD characters from a few extra stat points.
Just to add to Ssalarn's comment. One of the things I've tended to find from personal experience is that the difference in effectiveness between a 15 and 20 point character is quite significant but anything past 20 points doesn't usually make much more of a difference (some class combinations aside).
20 point builds gives a character the 18/20 in their primary stat without killing their other characteristics. 25 and 30 point builds have tended to just round out people's stats to allow them a few more options (and some other class options) but haven't actually made them more powerful in terms of their ability to take on higher CRs.
Obviously this could just be down to how my players play but after running a few APs on 20 points, I now tend to run APs with 25 and 30 point builds and have found that I don't need to increase the CR beyond the +1 I was already adding anyway.
As someone who GMs for a group used to play with extremely high point-buy, my advice is to simply consider them as APL+1. Oddly enough, this helps to reduce caster-martial disparity a little bit, since a small attribute increase doesn't make nearly as much of a difference for casters as it does for martial characters. Sure, the Wizard will have more hp and the Cleric will be better at channeling energy, but the Fighter gets a decent boost to will saves and extra skill points.
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Design Manager
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Just to add to Ssalarn's comment. One of the things I've tended to find from personal experience is that the difference in effectiveness between a 15 and 20 point character is quite significant but anything past 20 points doesn't usually make much more of a difference (some class combinations aside).
20 point builds gives a character the 18/20 in their primary stat without killing their other characteristics. 25 and 30 point builds have tended to just round out people's stats to allow them a few more options (and some other class options) but haven't actually made them more powerful in terms of their ability to take on higher CRs.
Obviously this could just be down to how my players play but after running a few APs on 20 points, I now tend to run APs with 25 and 30 point builds and have found that I don't need to increase the CR beyond the +1 I was already adding anyway.
I had a guy once who asked if he could just make a Fighter with 18's in every stat. There's more to that story but that was the jist of it. You know how much difference it made? Not a whole lot. It basically allowed him to take whatever feat he wanted without worrying too much about pre-reqs and took his saves from crappy to passable. He didn't really do anything that any other Fighter couldn't have done, outside of making TWF with DWAs work right from level 1. Oh, and making a couple saves.
The point is, generally higher point buy is a diminishing return except for classes who were suffering under a low point but, in which case the higher point buy generally just serves to equalize things for all classes and players. It gives a small boost to party effectiveness overall, but no more than they'd get from good system mastery. System Mastery is generally the real reason whenever I need to boost monster CRs, and the stats are generally only a factor insofar as they assist or promote it. Remember, the game is balanced for the players to win. They're supposed to breeze through same CR and CR+1 encounters.
Where does it specify the point-buy CR adjustments?
The reality is that point buy numbers make certain builds viable, while making others invalid.
Unless it is stated somewhere by Paizo errata I highly recommend against increasing CR for point-buy.
In essence I look at it like this:
10-15 point-buy is good for SAD classes.
20-25 point buy is good for MAD classes.
This is one of the major reasons PFS is "high-fantasy" since otherwise it would be rather pointless to play most of the classes since they would be gimped.
It is better to play a Max (mental) dedicated caster at low point buy, but a super eldritch knight at high point buy. You can actually pull it off and not lose much. Playing a SAD character at higher point buy can be problematic because you are literally a good as a character built with lower point buy. You have an extra HP or 2 every HD. Whoopty-Do! Your focus was on Ghoul-Touch and Hold-Person followed by a Coup-De-Grace by your familiar. You haven't gained anything being a Straight Wizard from 10-15-20-25 point buy aside from having slightly better statistics and having to dump less.
A Kensai Magus, however, NEEDS high dex and high int to survive. If you want an even cheesier version the Oracle/Kensai who has high INT and CHA instead and continually stacks feats and abilities that let him add his Cha to his dodge, deflection, or what-have-you.
A Kensai is crippled at 10 point buy, mediocre at 15, can be good at 20, and excellent at 25.
Example: It is fine if a WIZARD has the HP of paper because he can be far far away from danger. However, if the MAGUS has the HP of paper then he dies because he has to be in the midsts of danger to be at his peak of effectiveness.
Recap:
The super-viable classes at low point-buys (SAD) are just as super-viable at higher point buys. The super-viable classes at high point-buys (MAD) are not viable at all at lower point-buys.
Point-buy more or less governs viability of classes that are SAD and MAD.
It isn't worth adjusting the CR. Low levels are intended to be won by the martials, and high levels are intended to be won by the casters, this is the SAD relationship. However the MAD classes tend to be viable throughout the low AND high levels due to how they are built, and for this reason they are better than the SAD classes while their viability depends heavily on the statistics they can have.
At 25 point buy a Magus can blow both a fighter and a wizard out of the water, no contest. At 10 point buy both a fighter and a wizard can blow a magus out of the water, no contest.
Don't adjust your CRs because of point-buy.
Build better encounters if your PCs find it too easy, but always remember: The PCs are SUPPOSED to win. If they lose the game stops and the dream ends.
I don't find much difference between 15 or 20 pt buy. At 20 pt it is a +1 here or there normally or possible bringing +2 if you raise 10 to 14. Not really big deal on the game when it comes to CR. 25 pt buy double that for more an impact. At 20 pt on AP I wouldn't add templates. I usually just extra hp instead of average. Usually 2 per HD giving a BBEG full hit points. Seems to work well.
Where does it specify the point-buy CR adjustments?
The reality is that point buy numbers make certain builds viable, while making others invalid.
Unless it is stated somewhere by Paizo errata I highly recommend against increasing CR for point-buy.
In essence I look at it like this:
10-15 point-buy is good for SAD classes.
20-25 point buy is good for MAD classes.
Stats are what balance the SAD and MAD classes. MAD classes get overly powerful with high stats. 15 pt buy is little low for MAD classes but 25 amps up their power quite a bit. I find 20 pt better. This a happy medium I find as 20 pts benefits both SAD and MAD classes.
Stats are what balance the SAD and MAD classes. MAD classes get overly powerful with high stats. 15 pt buy is little low for MAD classes but 25 amps up their power quite a bit. I find 20 pt better. This a happy medium I find as 20 pts benefits both SAD and MAD classes.Where does it specify the point-buy CR adjustments?
The reality is that point buy numbers make certain builds viable, while making others invalid.
Unless it is stated somewhere by Paizo errata I highly recommend against increasing CR for point-buy.
In essence I look at it like this:
10-15 point-buy is good for SAD classes.
20-25 point buy is good for MAD classes.
Yes but this still boils down to the balance of the classes.
The martials, 1/3 and 3/3 casters (SADs) will both be good at 10-15 PB, but the 2/3 casters and other MADs will be good at 20-25 PB.At 20-25 PB the SADs will be AMAZING because they are able to not only be specialized into what they do but also be better at other things or even fantastic with dumping.
Templates are added on top of the maxes to make the character more terrifying, but also to minimize its weaknesses.
Lets take the generic Orc Barbarian who is maxed to do damage. Lets also assume he doesn't care about survival so much as being completely amazing at what he does well: "SMASHING THINGS!"
Point Buy (10) [15] {20} <25>
STR (22) [22] {22} <22>
DEX (10) [10] {12} <13>
CON (14) [16] {17} <18>
INT (05) [05] {05} <05>
WIS (05) [05] {05} <05>
CHA (05) [05] {05} <05>
Add Advanced +1 template:
STR (26) [26] {26} <26>
DEX (14) [14] {16} <17>
CON (18) [20] {21} <22>
INT (09) [09] {09} <09>
WIS (09) [09] {09} <09>
CHA (09) [09] {09} <09>
Lets take the generic Elf Kensai who is balanced around the Agile enchant to be the best that he can be for combat.
Point Buy (10) [15] {20} <25>
STR (07) [07] {07} <07>
DEX (18) [19] {19} <20>
CON (10) [09] {14} <11>
INT (18) [19] {19} <20>
WIS (07) [07] {07} <07>
CHA (07) [07] {07} <07>
Lets Add the Advanced +1 template:
STR (11) [11] {11} <11>
DEX (22) [23] {23} <24>
CON (14) [13] {18} <15>
INT (22) [23] {23} <24>
WIS (11) [11] {11} <11>
CHA (11) [11] {11} <11>
The point is that charging people for the Advanced template just because they are using a higher point buy that makes certain classes viable is STUPID. It limits your players choices and actually punishes them. The entire point of the Advanced template, from a player perspective, is to push your statistics BEYOND the point-buy max to enter the realm of the SUPER-EFFECTIVE.
For example it is possible for a ratfolk Kensai with the appropriate gear to have an AC of around 60, so practically untouchable without a crit. With the advanced template he would end up with more 20 HP than something around 60 at level 20, and his AC and CMD would each be 4 points higher, so AC 64. That is almost untouchable for even the monsters whose CRs are beyond 20.
Don't mistake Viability for effectiveness. A SAD is just as viable at 10 point buy as they are at 25 point but, but their effectiveness is limited by their overall level. A MAD increases in viability the higher the point buy, BUT are effective at all levels instead of just at the lower or higher brackets.
SAD is effective in its level range, but suffers heavily from effectiveness decay the farther it gets from its level range, so Martials at level 1 and casters at level 20.
MAD is effective at all levels (give or take), but is not as effective as the SADs that are in their primes at those levels. You could, therefore, offer the following:
Peak effectiveness: SADs (1-5; 15-20), MADs (6-14).
There is much overlap depending on the individual classes.
Paladins, for example, can be good at all levels so long as they are fighting evil creatures.
We roll for stats instead of point buy that is why I brought this up...
We roll for stats instead of point buy that is why I brought this up...
If you roll for stats don't complain if people get ridiculous stats because the could just as likely get terrible stats.
You chose the design choice that has extreme variability and now you get to deal with the consequences.
I'd say this was a bad idea. My experience with this in 3.0-3.5 was that High stats favour offence over defence, create an "eggshells with hammers" effect, and make the game more swingy, which makes random PC death (and to a lesser extent TPK) much more likely.
My advice would be to compensate for high PC stats by using larger numbers of monsters, not more powerful monsters. You can maintain the advancement rate by using slow track XP.
The difference between 15 and 20 points tends to be a +2 in a high stats in my games, so I tend to give monsters a +2 to a useful stat and usually +1 to AC and/or a single save to compensate. Seems to work for now.
Honestly, I don't find the difference in power between point buys to be too much of an issue, especially as levels increase. I wouldn't "account" for it other than throwing CR=APL encounters less, and APL+1, APL+2 and APL+3 encounters a bit more. Unless the point buy is huge, I've found that the encounters which are challenging for a 15 point group are challenging for a 25 point group, and the encounters which are easy for a 25 point group are easy for a 15 point group.