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So... my group is nearing Drezen and I just realised that the city is rather... empty!
I mean, sure, it's supposed to be ruined, but, hey, there are hundreds of human and tiefling troops stationed there and many more were there as well before Aponavicius decided to move the bulk of her forces south.
That bears the question then. What do these troops eat? The food and water reclaimed by the PC army would last only for a few days so there must be a way for them to resupply! Who repairs their weapons and armor? Where? Who provides mundane items? How do these troops entertain themselves? Who pays them and how do they spent their ill-earned wages?
Isn't there absolutely no kind of market / business in Drezen? I'm not expecting civilians, of course, but there must be some kind of infrastructure or else Drezen would collapse, in my opinion at least.
What is there for the PCs to conquer? Just a citadel and an empty shell of a city?
Help me flesh out Drezen!
Essentially an empty shell, yeah. If need be, cultists could bring food and water from elsewhere (or conjure it with the right spells), but generally speaking, the demons aren't overly concerned about the welfare of the mortals. And also, any mortal who falls is potential food for the ones who are still alive.
That's just my take on it, but I'm basing it off of things presented in The Worldwound Gambit by Robin Laws.
Seems to me that any army of appreciable size moving in the Worldwound would have followers consisting of Blacksmiths, Armorers, Farriers, Grooms, Squires, Cooks, Wagon-wrights, Merchants, Supply Wagons, etc...
The army the queen sent north to Drezen to reinforce the PC's claim on the city likely came with all of these, and likely supply routes were established back to Kenebres, and Villareth Ford could easily serve as a passage to the other cities nearby. If you look at the profile the city has a population of over 2,000 and far more than that when it is repaired.
One can assume that over the course of a few weeks, people learn that the place is magically warded against Demonic incursion and thus is much safer than many places in the Worldwound. Wives and children move to be with their husbands/fathers stationed in Drezen, and soon a bustling population inhabits the city. After all, the idea is to reclaim sections of the Worldwound. Why not start with the city of Drezen where the best hope for the 5th Crusade make their homes?
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@Aldarionn- I do believe that is what is eventually supposed to happen. In fact the beginning of Book 3 talks about just that happening basically.
What I think the OP was getting at was Drezen BEFORE the PCs & their Paladin army arrives.
It is my thought that yes, it is in fact basically an empty shell. And thinking on it, the way Changing Man described it would make sense too after having read The Worldwound Gambit.
Also, while those craftsmen might be with the enemy armies, why would they deal with the PCs seeing as they are either part of enemy armies.
Harrowed Wizard wrote: @Aldarionn- I do believe that is what is eventually supposed to happen. In fact the beginning of Book 3 talks about just that happening basically.
What I think the OP was getting at was Drezen BEFORE the PCs & their Paladin army arrives.
Indeed that is what I was referring to, the status of Drezen when the PCs arrive there not after conquering it.
Harrowed Wizard wrote: It is my thought that yes, it is in fact basically an empty shell. And thinking on it, the way Changing Man described it would make sense too after having read The Worldwound Gambit.
Also, while those craftsmen might be with the enemy armies, why would they deal with the PCs seeing as they are either part of enemy armies.
I haven't read the Worldwound Gambit so I don't really know what is described there - any hints would be appreciated!
So... why am I asking for ideas? The most interesting thing with mass combat up to this point for my group is handling the prisoners. Some players wanted to release them, some wanted to keep them along, most suggested that they were executed and that caused a very interesting debate (other than the party's paladin and the cleric of Iomeadae all the others play characters extremely hostile towards demon supporters - they actually expected that the army of paladin should execute all prisoners!).
Therefore, conquering Drezen and having to deal with several, dozens actually, prisoners, most of whom were non-combatants (not really civilians but rather not involved in the fighting) feels like it would be leading to very interesting situations as well as makes sense for the setting - tending the needs of standing armies I mean. Furthermore, several of those prisoners, may actually have been slaves, so were probably liberated rather than taken prisoner. What happens to all these people?
As to why would demons care about the welfare of human and tiefling supporters, I'd say for several reasons. First and foremost because they'd want them around! Fear can keep them leashed for so much. Armies would need food and drink, wages and something interesting to spend that money on - read here gambling, drinking, drugs, whoring, you name it. Otherwise...
Furthermore, don't forget that demons *need* mortals to "sin". They need mortals to behave in such a way in order to achieve their greater goal, which of course, as noted in the adventure itself, is not conquering land. Demons spend their time trying to seduce mortals to their cause, wouldn't they try to keep those already seduced satisfied? Up to a point of course...
So... that's the background story of my thoughts!
As always, any ideas and insight shall be greatly appreciated!
The way I look at it is the cultists are more like frontline troops at a Forward Operating Base. Sure there are smiths, cooks and latrine diggers. And every one of them is infantry trained and expected to pick up a rifle,er a sword, and man the lines against an all out attack. All of them.
IMHO that means that there are no noncombatants in this case, especially when you consider that this base has been reduced to what amounts to a skeleton crew to reinforce the war effort elsewhere. That means taking anyone actually good enough at what they do to be a noncombatant and moving them somewhere where they can be of better use. What you are left with is the company cooks and field smiths of the platoons not "worth" taking. In other words "we have to leave SOMEBODY here, we'll leave THEM." sure they're competent, but that's about all you can say for them.
What I'm thinking for doing with Drezen is anytime they want to start a new construction they make a Knowledge:Local or extended Perception check with a low base DC for something simple getting higher as the buildings get more comlex and if they make it they find a structure and materials between 10% and 95% suitable for what they want depending on how well they roll.
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Marios wrote: I haven't read the Worldwound Gambit so I don't really know what is described there - any hints would be appreciated! ((Sorry I took so long to respond; my youngest was in the hospital and that rather took priority over reading things in forums!))
I want to preface my commentary by saying that at the end of the day, it is your game, and any choices you make regarding Drezen and its populace- or lack thereof- are as valid as any opinions anyone else may have on the matter.
In The Worldwound Gambit you essentially have an 'Ocean's Eleven'-type group of persons who head into the Worldwound to take on something which is 'bad for business' (I think at some point one of the main characters even makes a comment to that effect- "these demon incursions are really bad for business. We need to do something about this."). The fiction included in this AP is from the same author, and uses characters from the book.
At one point in the story they come across some cultists, and decide that the best way to infiltrate would be to swipe some of the cultist's robes and paraphernalia to disguise themselves as cultists. The cultist camp and the goings-on there are rather well described, and depicts a rather chaotic 'survival of the most fit' sort of attitude amongst the humans making up the army. The demons, for their part, are mostly either amused at the humans' sycophantic antics or annoyed by them. The cultists are even 'preying upon' one another, taking those that are too infirm or weak to offer as blood sacrifices (and if I recall, food), getting whipped into even more of a frenzy and looking for the next sacrifice for the altar(s). Their gear is mostly a rag-tag mix of whatever they can scavenge and use from either their former comrades or fallen crusaders.
When they finally arrive at their destination, there are also factions of cultists and humans there, and the survival of these mortals mostly seems to hinge upon their fealty to various patrons within the location. For their part, the patrons provide their mortal followers with food, water, and protection (typically the threat of violence should someone 'mess with' their followers). Nothing is mentioned of any sort of infrastructure; any 'favors' are dealt with via barter and trade, or simply the stronger taking what they want from those who can't hold on to it.
Marios wrote: As to why would demons care about the welfare of human and tiefling supporters, I'd say for several reasons. First and foremost because they'd want them around! Fear can keep them leashed for so much. Armies would need food and drink, wages and something interesting to spend that money on - read here gambling, drinking, drugs, whoring, you name it. Otherwise...
Furthermore, don't forget that demons *need* mortals to "sin". They need mortals to behave in such a way in order to achieve their greater goal, which of course, as noted in the adventure itself, is not conquering land. Demons spend their time trying to seduce mortals to their cause, wouldn't they try to keep those already seduced satisfied?
Keep in mind that those supporters are fanatics. The humans and tielflings are getting more from their relationship to the demons than the other way around. In some ways, the cultists in Drezen are much less valuable to 'the cause' than those who are on the front lines, or even better yet- infiltrating behind the lines. When the Wardstones were in effect, the cultists were much more valuable, since they could pass beyond the barrier and do espionage or sabotage. Now? They're just extra baggage, and hardly as effective as some lower CR demon 'shock troops'. Sure, some more powerful mortals may prove their worthiness, but most of them are kept around for sport. As far as wages and such is concerned- that presumes an extent of 'civilization' that makes those things even reasonably valuable. And even if the supporters want any of those things, why should they buy it when they can just take it from someone else? And if they can't take it and would rather offer money, what's to stop the other guy from just taking his cash and leaving him face-down in the gutter?
Inasmuch as the demons 'need' mortals to 'sin', these cultists and fanatical followers are already foregone conclusions; they aren't bringing anything 'more' to the demons- their souls are already damned. And they don't need to keep them satisfied- just addicted (to power, false hope, or whatever). What is more interesting to the demons is to cause other mortals to fall into 'sin' and corruption- that adds fuel to their fire.
I included a few small orphanages hidden in a few caves and cellar structures beneath a few buildings, reasoning that mad cultists are unlikely to use birth control but are equally unlikely to all want to sacrifice their own babies. So they split them between locations so that bored demons would be less likely to destroy them all in a single swoop. The demons still could have done so, but were told not to by Aponavicius because it's an easy way to get new troops - just don't kill them.
The orphanages were run by harsh clerics and weak babies were sacrificed. Special magical items had been stolen from Mendev - basically bottles that could fill with breast milk three times per day - and that's how the babies survived. Also being within the Worldwound meant that they pretty much were all tieflings even if they weren't going to show it until adolescence.
I balanced the extra horror factor of orphanages by allowing a more intensive Rebuild Phase to absorb a lot of that excess wealth. The PCs were forced to build a real orphanage in Drezen because Mendev would be equally dangerous for tieflings at the moment. Prior to the Wardstones fallen they'd have a chance, but not now that paranoia, demon attacks and a lack of protective paladins* and clerics* to assuage locals worries meant their lives would be worth less over there.
*Since the paladins and clerics would generally be fighting the war or healing the hurt.
NOTE: Know your players before including orphanages. One player could trigger another by slaughtering all the tieflings. Or their simple existence could remind people of the greater horrors inherent in the Worldwound - a reminder they might not necessarily be comfortable with.
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