Flaming sphere and more


Rules Questions


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FLAMING SPHERE:

Flaming Sphere
School evocation [fire]; Level druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (tallow, brimstone, and powdered iron)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect 5-ft.-diameter sphere
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance yes

A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target. If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.

The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns. It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size. The surface of the sphere has a spongy, yielding consistency and so does not cause damage except by its flame. It cannot push aside unwilling creatures or batter down large obstacles. A flaming sphere winks out if it exceeds the spell's range.


This spell has the effect line where it says that it is a 5 ft. diameter sphere. It lacks the area heading that all area spells normally have. The descriptive text describes the spell as stopping as soon as it hits a creature and then damaging that creature.
To me the wording and headings of this spell is ambiguous at best as to whether or not it is an area spell. The descriptive text indicates that it only affects one creature even if several creatures stand in the same square. That seems at odds with the text under the "effect" header. But the effect header should have been an "area" header if it was supposed to affect an area.
So my question is... Is this an area spell? Can it affect more than 1 creature? And would it do extra damage against swarms?
I know it is a lot of work to find out exactly but the answer would be important for several spells (including ball lightning and others).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Quote:
If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature

So if it enters a square with four creatures, which creature is "that creature"?

Answer: each of them.


Jiggy wrote:
Quote:
If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature

So if it enters a square with four creatures, which creature is "that creature"?

Answer: each of them.

I hope you are right but it really isn't that easy. Remember that I'm not asking about RAI, but RAW.


I think RAW is 1 creature/round. I'd say if you used your move action to move it into the square with the 4 creatures, you get to choose which one it damages, if it was not moving, whichever creature moved into its square first gets the damage instead.


RAW isn't explicit. I'd say the same creature as the previous round, or determine it randomly. Or the caster can spend his move action to decide which one it is.


From the spell I read that it deals the damage to each creature in the square. The effect is a 5ft diameter square. Sweet. That means from one side to one side it occupies the space, albeit at a different amount per "step"( lets avoid calculus ).

"If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage."

Like Jiggy said, which one is that specifically? It also does not call out that it only effects 1 single creature. It effects the creature who is in its space.

From the swarm trait I would say that this spell is a type of AOE whose area is the 5 foot square it occupies. So it would take the damage plus 50% if it failed the throw.


It is not an area affect and I think the RAI is for it to tag one creature and stop. The RAW of "that creature" supports that.

Every rule has RAI. It is just a matter of whether or not they are the same.


I don't think RAW states either way. I'd say RAI, it would damage any creature in that 5' square. The only line you could use for RAW would be the plural usage in:

"A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes"

I hate the spell in general due to the fact that if you roll the sphere into a creature that makes it's save, you have the unfortunate situation of that creature standing in a giant ball of flame while not be effected in the slightest. Then your buddy attacks said creature and takes 3d6 damage from the sphere. But that's a different issue...


Krith wrote:


I hate the spell in general due to the fact that if you roll the sphere into a creature that makes it's save, you have the unfortunate situation of that creature standing in a giant ball of flame while not be effected in the slightest. Then your buddy attacks said creature and takes 3d6 damage from the sphere. But that's a different issue...

Sorry, but why does your buddy take any damage? He never shared the same square as the flaming sphere.

Krith wrote:

I don't think RAW states either way. I'd say RAI, it would damage any creature in that 5' square. The only line you could use for RAW would be the plural usage in:

"A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes"

The unfortunate part of using that part of the spell as your reasoning, is that under the damage, it states, "If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature"

So even though the fluff text of what it looks like says creatures the actual crunchy part of the text with the damage dice say a singular creature.


Tarantula,
You are correct that raw says "that creature," though I'd still say the wording overall is unclear as to how to deal with multiple creatures within a 5' square: RAW only states what the sphere does when it enters a square with "a" creature, not what the sphere does when it enters a square with multiple creatures. That sentence of "fluff" is the only part of the spell description that indicates multiple creatures being effected; otherwise, by RAW, you'd have to say the sphere has no effect on anyone when it enters a square with multiple creatures, because the wording of the spell says it only takes effect when there's "a" creature in a square and spells only do what they say they do. I think we'd all agree this isn't RAI though.

And I went with the buddy taking damage by assuming, RAI, that if you enter a square with a flaming sphere, you would also take damage. I'm aware this doesn't actually occur with RAW, which again, I hate as it doesn't make sense that anyone can just walk through the flaming sphere and avoid damage since the RAW states the sphere only damages when it enters a square. The way its written, the spell begs for RAI interpretation, in my opinion.


I think it should damage swarms. To be able to do that it has to have the ability to harm several (not numbered) creatures at once.


The sentence "If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage" does not prevent it affecting more than one creature in a 5' square, assuming you are equating "space" with "5' square". If you are going to claim that "a creature" and "that creature" only apply to a single creature, then the flaming sphere wouldn't stop moving when entering a space with more than one creature! It would just roll on through, without having any effect on them (or they on it) at all. But we don't have to take that stance, since in this context "a creature" actually stands for "one or more creatures", in normal English usage. So, each creature in the space causes the sphere to stop, and each creature in the space saves or takes damage from the sphere, regardless of the presence (or otherwise) of any other creatures.


Callum wrote:
The sentence "If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage" does not prevent it affecting more than one creature in a 5' square, assuming you are equating "space" with "5' square". If you are going to claim that "a creature" and "that creature" only apply to a single creature, then the flaming sphere wouldn't stop moving when entering a space with more than one creature! It would just roll on through, without having any effect on them (or they on it) at all.

Alternatively you could even claim that it stops as soon as it enters a square with any size of creature in it. In natural environments that would be at once because insects are everywhere.


Umbranus wrote:


Alternatively you could even claim that it stops as soon as it enters a square with any size of creature in it. In natural environments that would be at once because insects are everywhere.

Unfortunately, that seems to be true. Every other piece of the spell falls into place, if you assume the creature(s) affected can be of any size, and that moving into a space with any amount of creatures triggers its damage. Otherwise, you'd need to somehow figure out exactly which creature becomes the target of the effect, and the spell doesn't seem built to handle that.

...Perhaps, at the very least, you'd omit most any creature so negligible it's not found in any bestiary. But that truly seems to be the spell's hard downfall.

At least we know it's not alone in the Effect=area department. Think Telekinetic Sphere, and Whirlwind. They're not exactly Area spells either... they just conjure up a spell effect that you can manipulate and move.

My gripe is whether or not the sphere damages anyone entering the same space as It... or anyone it shares a space with, more than once. -THAT- mandates a rewrite.


Bane Wraith wrote:


My gripe is whether or not the sphere damages anyone entering the same space as It... or anyone it shares a space with, more than once. -THAT- mandates a rewrite.

I have no RAW to back me up but I handle it in a way that it is only dangerous while moving and stops moving after having damaged creatures it shares a square with. So entering a square with a sphere would not be dangerous. Nor would remaining in the same square. At least no until it tries to move next round, is in the same square with you and at once stops after damaging you again.


A 5' sphere does not completely fill a 5' cube, so it is possible to squeeze into a corner of the square and not be in the sphere.

A PFS DM let me damage a fine swarm with flaming sphere, but I'm not expecting everyone to agree that that was the correct ruling.

Grand Lodge

I have made a small change to the spell that works for my game. It discahrges all of its energy after touching the one creature (yes I could cound a swarm as one) and then takes the round to recharge its energy to burn something.

This has it almost has the spunge ball flahsing its flame to hit one thing and since the Soc in the party loves the spell to the point where she will have 2 on the feild at times it works out well (she even has the trait to make it cost 1 level level in meta).


So far all I have seen are unsubstantiated opinions or suggestions on how to homebrew rule it. I suspected that it would be a tough one to answer because I tried to research it myself first and I still haven't found the answer.
Don't get me wrong... I like the suggestions and even the opinions, but untill we get an official word on it, we simply don't know for sure (unless one or more of you come up with some solid rule quotes to prove the point).
An official word would really be best because it would show the intet for so many different spells (as others have mentioned).

Grand Lodge

Some specific questions I have that were touched on above


  • Does moving into a space with a sphere cause damage?
  • If something is standing in the sphere's square at the start of the sphere's turn, what happens?


Two things. First:

The spells states that it continues to burn throughout, so in part, it's saying there should be damage to those who enter/stay in a square with a FS.

"The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns."

Adding in this sentence from the description:

"It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would."

And you would, by RAW, at least have to have the FS "ignite flammable substances" that enter/stay in the 5' square with it.

Second:

"The surface of the sphere has a spongy, yielding consistency and so does not cause damage except by its flame."

This to me is a big problem as a "spongy, yielding consistency" still denotes substance and causes a big issue alluded to by my first post: how does a FS occupy the same space as another creature? (I know a 5' sphere doesn't entirely take up a 5' cube, but it takes up enough space that there should be repercussions/effects. Plus, the fact that it's flaming should do something to the gaps it's not quite squeezing into) There should be something about this in its write up, in my opinion.


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Lifat wrote:
Is this an area spell?

No, it's an effect spell.

Lifat wrote:
Can it affect more than 1 creature?

Yes - if more than one creature is in a 5-ft. space that the sphere enters, it will affect each of them.

Lifat wrote:
And would it do extra damage against swarms?

No, as it doesn't "affect an area". It would do its normal damage against swarms, though, as it doesn't target a specific number of creatures.


Callum wrote:
Lifat wrote:
Is this an area spell?

No, it's an effect spell.

Lifat wrote:
Can it affect more than 1 creature?

Yes - if more than one creature is in a 5-ft. space that the sphere enters, it will affect each of them.

Lifat wrote:
And would it do extra damage against swarms?
No, as it doesn't "affect an area". It would do its normal damage against swarms, though, as it doesn't target a specific number of creatures.

I'd be very much inclined to agree with you on this based on my understanding of the spell... But I'd still say that it is vague enough that a lot of people could either misinterpret it and/or understand it differently.


Krith wrote:

Two things. First:

The spells states that it continues to burn throughout, so in part, it's saying there should be damage to those who enter/stay in a square with a FS.

"The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns."

Adding in this sentence from the description:

"It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would."

And you would, by RAW, at least have to have the FS "ignite flammable substances" that enter/stay in the 5' square with it.

Ah, good point. So, it'd be a typical DC 15 reflex save, or catch fire, so long as you are exposed to it or come in contact with it, yes? Well, that at least makes the spell a Bit more useful... Of course, it's still one interpretation of an otherwise badly worded spell.

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