I'm getting conflicting impressions about how many people of which species live here. Is there a number anywhere? Even an order of magnitude would do wonders for my understanding of the current situation.
Okay, here's a related question. What's the minimum population size for the morlocks? They're closed off from any other morlocks in the Darklands, so they must be a large enough population to keep themselves viable.
I have no idea how many individuals this would require. Anyone have any knowledge of how this works?
Sorry for the repeated post, but I can't edit my old text.
The serpentfolk have two hundred morlock slaves. I'm guessing that they've also killed/eaten a bunch more, so the original population of the morlocks (before the urdefhans took half their territory) may have been close to a thousand.
So, I'm going to look for my notes. I created an ecology a while back, but I'm not sure if I still have it. It might take a while to look it up. Sorry.
No worries. It's not strictly necessary information, but it helps me run stuff when I know these things. I look forward to seeing your ecology!
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No worries. It's not strictly necessary information, but it helps me run stuff when I know these things. I look forward to seeing your ecology!
Blaaaaaarrrrrgh. I can't find any of my notes right now, though I've sorted through the stacks in my room several times. I'm really, really sorry.
At it's most basic (though mine was a bit more complex), if you're curious, I took the different lists and did as follows:
Highest CR critter for this random encounter: 1 of the maximum group.
(
And so on. The important thing to get a very random and varied ecology in this, is to treat each random encounter list separately. So I'd do this once on the list from, say, Thousand Fangs Below, but do it again, differently, from Sanctum of the Serpent God. I also take the creatures in the little bestiaries that aren't on the random table (or sometimes even if they are, if they're useful or look ubiquitous enough to do so) and sort them similarly - either including them on the tables that I make for that installment, or making them their own. I also took the random encounter tables from the PRD, and applied this same technique to the three dungeon tables (but I doubled the mid-level dungeon, and tripled the low-level dungeon) and the ruined city, urban (dangerous city), and underground tables with slight variants based on where we actually were (so, uderfhans instead of tieflings, for example). Also, if a creature appeared in the adventure itself, I sometimes reduced the number accordingly (so one less succubus, for example, since it appears in the dangerous urban city, but there's one specifically in the adventure), but not always, depending on what I wanted.
I also run the same effect on the random encounter tables from the old 3.5 DMG (if you have that), but purposefully arbitrarily excluding results from that one that couldn't make sense in the local setting (I stripped out all of the dragons and most of the hydras from those lists in the Council of Thieves one I did recently, for example, though not from the other lists).
Finally, I take the Bestiary (and/or Bestiary 2/3), look under the environment listings, and do a similar thing with that, but at a different rate: the first and second, and third highest CR are all 1, the fourth highest are both 2, the fifth highest is 3, and the rest are "add all the previous #s of CRs together, and divide by two (rounding up or down)".
As an example, starting with CR 8...
- CRs 8, 7, and 6 have 1 maximized set
- CR 5 has 2 maximized sets (3/2 = 1.5 -> 2)
- CR 4 has 3 maximized sets (5/2 = 2.5 -> 3)
- CR 3 has 4 maximized sets (8/2 = 4)
- CR 2 has 6 maximized sets (12/2 = 6)
- CR 1 has 9 maximized sets (18/2 = 9)
If you start with a higher CR, you get the idea for how it flows (presuming you choose to round up, it works out a bit differently if you round down): 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 14, 21, 31, 47, 70, 105, 158, 237, 355, 533, 799, 1199, 1798, 2697, 4046...
... and so on.
At the end of all this process, you add all the things together if you have multiple groups of the same creature at the same CR (do beware, though sometimes the same creature appears in different CR ranges in different tables for some reason, like the Shadow Mastiff appearing as a CR 5 and a CR 7 at different places in the Council of Thieves). If you have the same creature at multiple CRs, you can leave them where they are, but still add the sum together.
The creatures still only appear in the randomized groups they are indicated to be in, but this lets you derive a total number of creatures based off of the maximums of those randomized numbers.
This is actually quite a powerful tool in general.
What this does is that it gives a complex and suggestive "proto-ecology", that you can usually use to develop a fairly straightforwardly working one on its own.
Unlike my fictional examples above, in the most recent one I did this to, Council of Thieves, by way of example (which I can find), included goblins, goblin dogs, and barghests in the forest in the wild.
There were seven barghests by themselves (CR 4) and eight sets of packs of 2d6 goblin dogs (CR 6; total 96), while there were four sets of 2d6 goblins with 1d4 goblin dogs (CR 5; total 48 goblins, 16 goblin dogs), while there were three sets of individual barghests with 2d6 goblins (CR 6; total 36 goblins). This suggests a certain forced culture in the forests of goblins immediately making traps to catch and "tame" goblin dogs (a more powerful creature) to give themselves the ability in the forest (which is exceedingly dangerous). However, a barghest is more potent than even several goblin dogs, and since a barghest (despite appearing as one) is not, technically, a goblin, the goblin dog's itchy mange affects it; thus, if they wish to serve the barghest (and get its patronage) the goblins must sacrifice the goblin dogs (whether by letting them go wild again, or by killing them, it doesn't matter). In the end, ten barghests, eighty-four goblins, and one-hundred twelve goblin dogs live in the forest... not that many, really, but more than enough for adventurers to come across from time to time.
In any event, you can do what you like with those as the base numbers, either presuming that's how many there are, period, or just presuming that's how many the adventurers could possibly encounter until the other creatures of their ilk get the idea of "OKAY, WE'RE DONE" and either strive to avoid the adventurers or just flee the area entirely.
There are a few variants, as well.
Variants off the top of my head that I've used include:
- increasing the iteration by +1 per CR below the highest CR instead of +1 per CR on the chart (so only 1 maximum set at CR 15, 2 at CR 14 - even though there are none -, and thus 3 at CR 13, and so on, until you get 15 sets of CR 1s, if there are any),
- multiplying the numbers of non-magical animals, vermin, and the like (usually by 5 for plants and dangerous vermin, 10 for substantial threat animals, or 100 for animals with a CR>1),
- straight up doubling the numbers for each CR less than the last instead of #+1, as described above
- doing something similar with the maximized size of groups as presented in the "organization" category
- presume the maximum number of sets for CR less than 1 is doubled for CR 1/2 and double again for each increment below 1/2 (CR1x2 for 1/2, [CR 1/2x3] for 1/3, [CR 1/3 x4] for 1/4, [CR 1/4 x5] for 1/6, and [CR 1/6x6] for 1/8), {this can also be straight up x2 of the previous CR instead of increasing amounts, or multiplied by the divider, so x6 for 1/6, or other such effects}
All of these work really well.
Of course, you're going to have to arbitrate these numbers, otherwise a few really strange and funny things arise (like in the Council of Thieves game, it turns out that there are more imps in Westcrown than any other creature except for thieves, for example - thus requiring some arbitration on my part), but
I'm sorry I can't supply you with my final results right now (it's really frustrating to me), but I hope the tools are handy in general!
Oh, what I presumed about the morlocks, I do somewhat remember, though, is that there was about 2,000 or so, if I remember, over all, but they were entirely scattered, frightened, and broken, except for the small chaotic "community" the adventurers find (though I admit, that was not said anywhere in the game - it's more an arbitrarily chosen "guesstimate" by me.
Anyway, I hope this helps, at least somewhat. :/
EDIT: to be clear, the tool above doesn't auto-generate an ecology. But it does suggest one. It's especially helpful that it draws on different sources and treats the different tables differently to create a diverse and varied environment. And, in general, I've found it a super-useful method of getting a general "feel" for an area. It doesn't describe everything that's there, but it does describe enough for you to understand things in a broad sort of way.
It's also worth noting that you can streamline and reduce the amount of hoof-work it takes by just doing this by CR, but you end up with fewer.
Also, another variant I'd forgotten was to increase each of the lower tables in an AP random encounters by +1 based on the fact that they're lower, and thus more common.
This is an amazing post. I've done stuff similar to this, but never as well organized. This is a great system, and I shall take it to heart.
I feel bad that this response is so short, but that's only because you've left nothing in need of being said. Excellent, excellent work, sir. May I buy you a pint at PaizoCon out of gratitude?
I'm really glad you like it! And don't feel bad... brevity displays wit, the wise old saying indicates. (I wonder what that says about me... ;D)
I'll certainly accept a soda or sweet tea^, if I and my wife ever get out that way. :D
I'm also totally favoriting my own post, embarrassingly enough, but exclusively for the purpose of being able to find it later... I don't know that I've written it out quite as succinctly as above (though I notice my own typos and dangling, unfinished sentences and thoughts, alas... frustrates me to no end**).
As another note reference to my Council of Thieves ecology, I used a method of "maximum groups by organization entry" instead of CR for goblins relative to those that lived under Westcrown. This allowed me to develop what was only a minor sidequest (a burgeoning would-be goblin king) into something potentially much larger (or leaving it only a side quest, at the players'/my own options).
I go into that a bit more here, but the point is that I utilized the above tool in order to understand the goblins that lived in Westcrown's sewers. When I did that... something magical happened. I suddenly realized how big a threat the proto-goblin-king could become.
Using the proto-ecology development tool, I suddenly had a much more expanded story.
Add in a few templates and a background that was missing in the game, and suddenly there's a rather potentially-epic side story that could have ramifications throughout the ages, or at least in later campaigns.
()
The bandits I used a different generation method (as I outlined over there) because, frankly, they serve a different purpose, and ecologically didn't matter. I presumed they were recruited from the general population of Westcrown and it's environs and that any of them that were active gained levels by overcoming trials throughout the AP as well.
But those are just two more examples of how this generation method (or other similar generation methods) can create important stories and ecologies, too.
* Though this is not the thread for that AP, it serves a point as how this type thing works in various APs.
** I console myself with the fact that I'm ADD, dyslexic, and, most importantly, usually looking after a very busy toddler boy (my son). Yep. Totally blaming it all on that and not on my own haste and lack of proof-reading. :)
^ If such things exist in that part of the world. I'm unsure. :)