Me and my GM need a question answered


Rules Questions

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I am currently playing a fetchling ninja and at level 20 ninjas gain the ability to turn invisible as if they cast greater invisiblity on themselves my GM and I were talking and could not come to a agreement on if dectect magic would cause my fetchling ninja to glow and therefore reveal my location I say I dosent but he says that detect magic causes all magic to glow amd wanted me to ask the board to see what you all think thank you


Detect magic specifically does NOT work on invisible creatures.

Edit: I had this come up before, but I can't seem to track down the rule. I may have imagined it, or it may have been a different system.


The ninja gets Hidden Master at 20th level which is lisyed as a Supernatural Ability (Su)

Core Rulebook, Apendix 1 wrote:


Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where
magic is suppressed or negated (such as an a­ntimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table 16–1 for a summary of the types of special abilities.

Since they're magical and are blocked by Antimagic fields, they should be detectable by detect magic.

BTW, this should be posted in the rules forum next time


ok thanks


wat if I took minor and major magic tricks


BigDTBone wrote:


Detect magic specifically does NOT work on invisible creatures.

Edit: I had this come up before, but I can't seem to track down the rule. I may have imagined it, or it may have been a different system.

IIRC it detects the magical aura of the spell but not the invisible creature. And it would take three rounds to get it down to a specific square. It's been asked / answered here before (I think), a search of the threads / boards should bring it up.

Grand Lodge

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Rubber Ducky Guy. Hidden Master invisibilty is not detectable by Detect Magic. See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge and or even True Seeing will be able to detect it. So Detect Magic being a 0 level spell will certainly not be able to.

Especially since it does say that it can not be overcome in anyway.


Like a light shining without a source...

You know there is light; but where it's coming from is a lot harder to pinpoint. It may take several rounds to find the source of the magical emanations of a invisible creature.

Grand Lodge

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Detect Magic would not in any way work with the Hidden Master ability though. In ANY way. It is a 0 level spell for one... for two it (the Hidden master ability) specifically STATES it is not detectable by any means and includes spells meant to specifically to overcome invisibility.
From the book directly: " While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeingcan reveal her." Two of which are very powerful indeed. In this case the ability specifically overrides anything said about supernatural abilities in general.


ok but my gm thinks that if u have the ability to cast them u become magical and therefore would become sublect to setect magic as I have minor and major magic along with the ki points does that mean im now magical


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You and your GM really need to look at the detect magic text.

The spell works over the course of several rounds. It doesn't produce any light at all.

On round one, you detect the presence or absence of magic, IF you direct the cone to the region where the ninja stands. At best that's like a 1 in 4 chance, but 20th level ninjas are usually hiding in implausible places.

One round two — OH WAIT A NINJA STABBED YOU AND YOU HAVE LOST CONCENTRATION.


Even if that doesn't happen for some reason, it's still 3 rounds before you detect the location of the aura, and that's presuming your GM doesn't figure the invisibility extends to the auras themselves. (It also presumes the ninja did not move, which would reset the detection back to round 1. So as long as you move outside the cone [circle around] every turn, they'll know there's something magic around and that's all)

That's my personal ruling: invisibility also conceals any and all spell auras you are carrying around, although this can be thwarted by any divination spell of a higher level. So detect magic never pierces any kind of invisibility, but arcane sight might.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Mhart7707 wrote:
ok but my gm thinks that if u have the ability to cast them u become magical and therefore would become sublect to setect magic as I have minor and major magic along with the ki points does that mean im now magical

Being a sorcerer (or any other caster), does not make you magical and thus detectable by detect magic.


thanks that really helps us both out I have a great gm who is willing to listen to us when we question a rule or how he thinks it works without getting mad or just saying i am god this is how it works


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If any normal caster had used Greater Invisibility, then yes, Detect Magic could be used to detect the spell, but only after 3 rounds could you pinpoint the square; any self-respecting Ninja would not stand still for 3 rounds while you looked at him though. For proof, look at Mythic Invisibility:

Mythic Invisibility wrote:

The invisible target can't be detected with detect magic or other spells that detect magic auras.

The invisibility can't be penetrated, revealed, or dispelled by spells of 2nd level or lower (such as see invisibility or glitterdust), thoughtrue seeing and dust of appearance can reveal the invisible target's presence.

However, the Ninja ability specifically overrides the normal series of events. So a 20th level Ninja with Hidden Master can't be detected by any means, including Detect Magic. Hell, if you had a Hidden Master stand in front of a wall as you throw a bucket of paint directly on him, it still wouldn't reveal him. Because the ability says so.

Even though the paint wouldn't reveal the Hidden Master. It would reveal where the Hidden Master isn't.


so what your saying is that even if a caster were to create a fog then watched for the air currents that I would create by my movements it wouldn't work


Mhart7707 wrote:
so what your saying is that even if a caster were to create a fog then watched for the air currents that I would create by my movements it wouldn't work

RAW, yes. The GM can always say otherwise (and I would rule otherwise, personally).


that's wat my GM says and I wud have to agree with him it just makes sense just like being covered in paint wud make me visible regardless of my super awesome inviso powers


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personally, i would NEVER allow a cantrip to simply make a higher level spell's effect useless without some kind of unique player doing. i certainly would not allow a cantrip to overpower a capstone ability. its hard enough to ever even get to your capstone, little own have one that doesnt completely suck like most classes do. as far as i am concerned, using hidden master makes you invisible to ANYTHING, even something using blindsense/blindfight/tremmorsense/scent. its pretty much the ultimate form of invisibility in the game for the one class who's soul purpose is to NEVER BE SEEN IN A FIGHT. taking away the one thing that this class strives for for the entire game with something a CR 1/2 wizard NPC can cast is disgraceful to the spirit of the game.


I don't see it as being disgraceful more like coming up with a clever solution in a fight against someone vastly more powerful besides if its clever its fun and that's the whole point of the game is to have fun besides all things work both ways so wat a npc can do I can to plus it would force me to think on tactics and not just turn invisible and declare myself the winner


well lets put it this way - before you try to "find" an invisible person, you must first somehow know that hes around. no one just starts throwing paint around a room for no reason, do they? so we must assume that the invisible person is actually in a fight with whoever is trying to find them, because if not, that person has no reason to be looking for them. they cant hear your footsteps or your breathing, nor can they see you moving anything (because anything you pick up becomes invisible) so until you attack them they have no real choice but to assume you arn't there.

so if you ARE in a fight, then you've already hit them which, barring things like spring attack, you are either using ranged attacks or melee ones. if your in melee, then all they have to do is attack blindly into 1 of the 9 squares they are adjacent to until they hit you. that's between 3-4 (depending on what you are fighting) squares to eliminate a round, assuming they are a normal human with thats not using more than 1 weapon.

^^^this^^^ is the best way to find someone who is invisible in a fight. if you are using a ranged weapon and they try using a 0-level spell to locate you where a 4th level spell would fail, then they are either terribly desperate or a foolish spellcaster.

i don't see how logically you could detect the magical aura of a spell with a caster level of 20th when said spell explicitly says "cannot be detected by any means". the paint idea is ok but from where i sit, hidden master would just make it look like all the paint hit the wall. if you moved after being spattered with paint, then ok, i found you. but until then you still just look like part of whatever else got hit with the paint.


Uh, my party has Detect Magic running as a part of our standard operation procedure. Once we enter a potentially dangerous place (like a dungeon), Detect Magic is assumed to be on unless stated otherwise.

So my party might find the guy hiding with Invisibility because we turned the corner and detected the 'presence of magic' and then began studying it.


Mhart7707 wrote:
I am currently playing a fetchling ninja and at level 20 ninjas gain the ability to turn invisible as if they cast greater invisiblity on themselves my GM and I were talking and could not come to a agreement on if dectect magic would cause my fetchling ninja to glow and therefore reveal my location I say I dosent but he says that detect magic causes all magic to glow amd wanted me to ask the board to see what you all think thank you

Only if you stand around for 3 rounds in their cone of vision while they pinpoint you with Detect Magic. Keep in mind this is not automatic:

PRD wrote:

You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.

2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.

3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft)


yeah, sorry, but if you arnt moving when you see them casting a spell in your direction your a fool anyway. all you have to do is get behind them and they will still be seeing your aura where you were when they cast the spell if that is where you were standing when you used hidden master. if not, then they would see the aura wherever you were standing when you went invisible. all you have to do is get behind their vision and they cant see you anymore. that simple...


Also I would point out:

PRD wrote:
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.

The 20th level Ninja Capstone specifically says you CANNOT be detected. Not even by True Sight, so Detect Magic should be right out the window.


If your GM still wants you to detect for some reason you can see if he will let you get a unique item of some kind based on the Magic Aura spell to mask all of your magical auras. I had a Belt that hid all of my magical auras on one of my characters for exactly that reason.


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me circa last year wrote:
DM is not a great counter to Invis. Let's stop pretending like it is.


Brotato wrote:
me circa last year wrote:
DM is not a great counter to Invis. Let's stop pretending like it is.

+1


A case could perhaps be made that detect magic would reveal magic items that said ninja has in his possession.

Knowing exactly where those objects are will still take three rounds though, and by then he's probably lopped your little castie hands off.


aboniks wrote:

A case could perhaps be made that detect magic would reveal magic items that said ninja has in his possession.

Knowing exactly where those objects are will still take three rounds though, and by then he's probably lopped your little castie hands off.

Spells and effects cast on a person also ward the items carried. Or else the effects of things like Resist Energy would not protect something as simple as your clothes, or the Wizard's spell book (say before magical bags).


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Tels wrote:
aboniks wrote:

A case could perhaps be made that detect magic would reveal magic items that said ninja has in his possession.

Knowing exactly where those objects are will still take three rounds though, and by then he's probably lopped your little castie hands off.

Spells and effects cast on a person also ward the items carried. Or else the effects of things like Resist Energy would not protect something as simple as your clothes, or the Wizard's spell book (say before magical bags).

Fair enough.

Tangential Cane Shaking:
Things like this are why I gnash my teeth when abilities state that they work like, or are equivalent to, other abilities or spells, and then proceed to state that they are, in fact, not very much like them at all.

The only parts of the Greater Invisibility description that apply to Hidden master at all are "becomes invisible", "gear, that vanishes too", and "doesn't end if the subject attacks". The rest of the spell goes out the window since it's simply qualifying conditions about when the target can be detected. Which a Hidden Master can't be.

Calling something a cat when it's actually a picture of a cat stapled to a jellyfish just confuses people.


true so magic cant be used to detect the ninja but I think it would be fair to assume that disturbing the air as I move through a fog or if I walk under a waterfall would at the very least make my general location known to anybody watching for those things and I don't plan on staying invisible at all times I don't think I could even if I wanted to so in most case the fight would have started before I turned my self invisible plus I like to challenge my GM into thinking of clever ways to defeat things I do


Mhart7707 wrote:
true so magic cant be used to detect the ninja but I think it would be fair to assume that disturbing the air as I move through a fog or if I walk under a waterfall would at the very least make my general location known to anybody watching for those things and I don't plan on staying invisible at all times I don't think I could even if I wanted to so in most case the fight would have started before I turned my self invisible plus I like to challenge my GM into thinking of clever ways to defeat things I do

Using the "undetectable by any means" phrase to make the ninjas magical gear undetectable, but not using it to make the ninja "undetectable by any means" strikes me a weird approach to interpreting this, (throwing paint on him is a means to detect him, after all) but honestly, as long as you and your DM agree on how it works, (whatever that agreement is), then that's how it works. :)

Enjoy your backstabby adventures, and lop the hands of a caster for us.


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Hidden Master makes me think of Skyrim's Shadow Warrior.

*shoots bandit with a bow and crouches*

Bandit Marauder: Argh!! ... Must have been the wind.


lol or in metal gear solid when u get the iviso suit and punch a guard


Kind of makes me want to play a Ninja to 20, just so I can do some truly stupid stuff.

Use Hidden Master to just waltz into a Wizard's tower. By waltz, I literally mean waltz as in dancing.

Then, use like a giant cigar cutter, and put the wizard's hand insider and cut it off. He'll be all like, "DAFUQ JUST HAPPENED!" as he's unable to detect me walking off with his hand.

Also, funny story. Since the Ninja is unable to be detected by any means, wouldn't that mean magical traps don't trigger? Because they can't detect you to trigger? Would pressure plates detect the pressure?

That one line is so ridiculously broken it's kind of... stupid when you think about it.


yes I agree but with light steps wouldn't that stop u from triggering a pressure plate


Tels wrote:
...That one line is so ridiculously broken it's kind of... stupid when you think about it.

Yup. Must be nice to be able to solo-kill an entire castle full of guards without anyone even noticing what's happening right in front of them.

/snark


but completely fun when u consider that my character is almost completely insane


Mhart7707 wrote:
yes I agree but with light steps wouldn't that stop u from triggering a pressure plate

Sure would, so now he's immune to mechanical traps as well as magical traps. About the only trap he's not immune to is one that is always active (like a trap that shoots a fireball every round), or something like a pit trap with an illusionary floor.


wow that is amazing ninjas r so badass and being a fetchling that allows me to trade a shadow walk for a dimension door just makes it better


Tels wrote:
Mhart7707 wrote:
yes I agree but with light steps wouldn't that stop u from triggering a pressure plate
Sure would, so now he's immune to mechanical traps as well as magical traps. About the only trap he's not immune to is one that is always active (like a trap that shoots a fireball every round), or something like a pit trap with an illusionary floor.

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Yes.

If a Hidden Master falls into a pit trap, does he make a sound? Yes.

Can a Hidden Master be detected by any means, including sound? No.

Therefore, a Hidden Master is incapable of of falling into pit traps.

;)

(No, please don't try to convince a DM that this makes sense.)


No, the Hidden Master falls into the pit trap, but no one detects he fell. Hopefully, he didn't break a leg, because we won't know about it until his spell wears off.

Imagine the stupid shenanigans involved. Say a Hidden Master gets hit by a bleed effect while hidden, the party won't be able to heal him because every time he asks for healing, they can't detect his hearing. It's like the Grey Fox mask, but for everything.


aboniks wrote:
Tels wrote:
Must be nice to be able to solo-kill an entire castle full of guards without anyone even noticing what's happening right in front of them.

Did anyone else have a Jack Sparrow/Will Turner mash-up moment?

Will Turner: You turned invisible and killed everyone..
Jack Sparrow: Ninja.


The real problem here is with the Ninja's Hidden Master ability.

Quote:
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.

I think the ability is not well written, especially the part about "cannot be detected by any means" as I know a few who take it far too literally. My personal opinion is that divination magic, or other spells (or spell like abilities) specifically designed to counter or specially affect invisible creatures does not function. However, if the ninja were to stand in water there would be a noticable displacement. If they are walking through sand there would be a displacement. If you cover them in flour you can spot them. The ninja's ability is supposed to work like greater invisibility. I think mundane things that defeat invisibility should still function against it, such as termorsense but that it defeats all magical attempts to find or defeat the creatures invsibility. It's still incredibly powerful, but it just doesn't make sense to let it mask the displacement of water if the ninja is up to his waist.

As far as I know this issue was brought up, but there was never an official resolution.


On a serious note, however.. I agree. Hidden Master would prevent things like true seeing, divination, etc from detecting him. However.. I would think something like Glitterdust would work, as would say.. throwing a bag of flour, etc. Because Glitterdust and Flour, etc latches on to the person.. they're invisible, afterall, not intangible.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I believe the undetectable is "true seeing and see invisibility don't work" but detect magic would detect the magic of the spell.

Now using Detect Magic to detect an invisible creature is pretty dumb anyway, because it takes 3 rounds of stationary target to find the square. So the invisible person need only move every round to keep from being pinpointed.


I include detect as not functioning because it is a divination spell.

Actually, I just had a thought about how the best way to describe how I think the Hidden Master ability should function: The ninja essentially casts Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility on himself as a standard action.

In this case, it would make sense for glitterdust to function as it is a conjuration spell which creates magically glowing dust which outlines the character, in sort of a similar way that throwing flour on an invisible character works.


Tels wrote:
aboniks wrote:

A case could perhaps be made that detect magic would reveal magic items that said ninja has in his possession.

Knowing exactly where those objects are will still take three rounds though, and by then he's probably lopped your little castie hands off.

Spells and effects cast on a person also ward the items carried. Or else the effects of things like Resist Energy would not protect something as simple as your clothes, or the Wizard's spell book (say before magical bags).

Actually no. Spells and effects cast on a person only affect the person, unless the spell / effect says otherwise. Resist energy for example specifically states it protects your equipment as well.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:


I think the ability is not well written, especially the part about "cannot be detected by any means" as I know a few who take it far too literally.

Aren't rules meant to be taken literally? specifically being stated as undetectable would mean a "detect" spell would not see it.

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