what would a wizard do when not casting spells

[Fifo]

hi, early in life there are not alot of spells to case, so the question is asked. our group has never run a real wizard/sorcerer type. the perception is blam, one spell shot, wait for the next day to do it one more time. there are those spells that are 3+modifier, but still, one fight could use that all up, and then what for the next room in the dungeon? i think we are missing the big picture for the arcane casters. the cleric has armor and a weapon to smack the evil guys with. a weak caster? gnome? 1d4 if he even wants to get up close with no armor on? a bit of basic advice would be nice.

this time around i drew the straw and will be trying a ratfolk wizard or gnome sorcerer. and ask.

[MendedWall12]

If you can carry it- Heavy Crossbow. 1d10 damage with the attack bonus based off of BAB + Dex bonus. Full round action to reload, so there's some action economy that needs to be thought about, but it provides at least the potential for consistent damage outside of spells.

Also, as soon as you can afford them, you'll want to invest in wands. Trigger items for low level casters are a must.

[Thac20]

There are cantrip spells that can do minor damage or daze an opponent. Another option is to spend a standard action to do a knowledge role on an enemy.

Some level 1 wizards may use a crossbow. Elvish wizards can use a longbow.

[Hardwool]

Well, there's always the light crossbow. Or see if you can get your hands on a Wand of Magic Missile.

[Chris P. Bacon]

I don't have much to add, except concurrence. A crossbow shot can be worth it at low levels, though I'd then resort to cantrips rather than spending time reloading. Try to pick off severely weakened opponents, so that the big guns in the party can focus on meatier targets.

Also, know the initiative order. I've been in situations where it was worth it to move up into melee just to provide flanking bonuses and Aid Another when I'm confident the ally I'm flanking with is going to act long before the enemy and should be able to finish them off (with a +4 to hit thanks to me). Measure the risk and gauge whether or not you can safely take at lest one hit. Even the wizard should be ready to take one for the team every now and then. There's always fighting defensively, too.

Carrying some caltrops or an alchemical item couldn't hurt, either.

For Sorcerers, or the occasionally charismatic Wizard, consider demoralizing via Intimidation.

[Java Man]

Scrolls (cheap to make), crossbow, oil flask, alchemical weapons, ans sometimes sandwich making. I have played several low level wizards and all of these have been uSeful to me.

[fine_young_misanthrope]

cry in the corner seems a standard tactic...

[Rory]

Fifo wrote:

this time around i drew the straw and will be trying a ratfolk wizard or gnome sorcerer. and ask.

A lot of options depend on what you are allowed to use as source material.

I'm going to assume anything on the PRD is legit to use.

Ratfolk Wizard:
- Scribe Scroll is your go to feat. Scribe a bunch of spells. Pull out these spells to use.
- Many wizard schools give an ability 3+INT times per day, but for most it is best to swap those out.

Gnome Sorcerer:
- Pick the Pyromaniac racial trait (ADvanced Player's Guide). This gives you one casting of Produce Flame per day (which is 2 rounds of throwing fire at caster level 2).
- Pick a bloodline that gives a special ability usable 3+CHA times per day. Decent examples for a gnome is Fey (Core Rulebook) or Primal Elemental Fire (Ultimate Magic).

Both:
- Pick up a cantrip that does damage (Acid Splash, Ray of Frost) or one that can be cast for good effect (Daze vs. Humanoids with the Fey bloodline is nice). You can use those at will and are more magically inclined than a crossbow.
- Scrolls! Scrolls! Scrolls!
- A wand of Magic Missile, or even Burning Hands, can be lots of fun.
- Pick up a vial of acid (10gp) to toss.

It's also good advice to pick a spell that lasts more than one round while you are low in spell slots. Those let you stretch your spell slots farther than one action per cast. Flaming Sphere allows you to "attack" every round up to your level in rounds. That means you might just need one spell for that combat. Summon spells last multiple rounds too.

Limitations on the number of spells is a big drawback for low level casters though. It is really rough as a sorcerer until level 4. The problem goes away nearly completely around levels 5 thru 7.

Example Characters:

Ratfolk Wizard Conjuration Specialist can cast up to four Summon Monster I spells per day. They last 2 rounds at level 1. He also has Acid Splash prepared for casting that spell to do 1d3 damage at range at will. Further, he also spent some initial cash to create scrolls of Magic Missile, Cause Fear, Mage Armor, and Comprehend Languages.

Gnome Sorcerer Fey bloodline can cast Prduce Flame once per day (2 shots of 1d6+1 flame). He can touch living foes 3+CHA times per day to lose their standard ation by causing them to laugh. He also has the spell Daze to stop humanoids at range with a +2 DC to save against it. For spells, he has Burning Hands to be able to cast for 2d4 damage (up to 4 times per day). And then he has a couple vials of acid to toss.

[Ravingdork]

Thac20 wrote:

Another option is to spend a standard action to do a knowledge role on an enemy.

Knowledge checks are non-actions insofar as I know.

[pennywit]

As everyone else here said: cantrips, Knowledge skills, at-will abilities (force missile is a nice one), and a crossbow. Especially be alert for ways to use your cantrips creatively. You would be surprised how much mileage you can get out of Mage Hand and Open/Close.

[Kimera757]

Fifo wrote:

hi, early in life there are not alot of spells to case, so the question is asked. our group has never run a real wizard/sorcerer type. the perception is blam, one spell shot, wait for the next day to do it one more time. there are those spells that are 3+modifier, but still, one fight could use that all up, and then what for the next room in the dungeon? i think we are missing the big picture for the arcane casters. the cleric has armor and a weapon to smack the evil guys with. a weak caster? gnome? 1d4 if he even wants to get up close with no armor on? a bit of basic advice would be nice.

this time around i drew the straw and will be trying a ratfolk wizard or gnome sorcerer. and ask.

If you're a wizard, play a specialist, preferably a conjurer. Or a fire wizard, if you want to blast later on. Check out those 3 + modifier spell-like abilities before you select a character concept. For instance, don't decide you want to be a necromancer before checking those out; the basic necromancer spell-like abilities suck!

As a low-level caster you and the cleric are deciding when the fighting stops. The cleric will run out of healing, affecting everyone else, and you will run out of spells, which means combat becomes harder for everyone else.

Pick your spells wisely. Do not take Magic Missile at 1st-level. 1d4+1 autodamage just isn't worth as much as a single shot from your friend archer's bow. Try Color Spray or Sleep instead.

A lot of dungeons are really badly designed. So many rooms near each other, packed with an encounter each (maybe with unrealistic soundproof walls to prevent 3 or 4 encounters simultaneously), so that crawling through a single dungeon might take a week. Unfortunately that is hitting you with an unofficial nerf stick.

[Ascalaphus]

I've had some success with the 1d3 damage cantrips. Acid Splash, combined with the alchemical focus item (flask of acid, from Adventurer's Armory), combined with Point Blank Shot and a good Dex, meant I'd be hitting 60% of the time for 1d3+2 damage, without going into melee. Pretty decent for something that's almost free.

(My build was going towards Magical Lineage->Reach Spell->Calcific Touch, so getting to Precise Shot was the real reason for Point-Blank-Shot.)

[DrDeth]

Skip crossbow, it's a trap. Use cantrips and your specialist power, if there is one.

Acid splash, etc are good, but there's also Daze (really good for the first few levels).

Wizards have unlimited magic, but the more powerful stuff goes fast. Ration it. Once you have seen the battle has turned, go back to cantrips.

[Kirth Gersen]

Since switching from 2e to 3e, when playing a wizard I notice that I never seem to run out of spells anymore. If I didn't have an appropriate one prepared, on a scroll, or in a wand, I'd probably just stand there and blow smoke rings out of a pipe.

[TarSpartan]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Since switching from 2e to 3e, when playing a wizard I notice that I never seem to run out of spells anymore. If I didn't have an appropriate one prepared, on a scroll, or in a wand, I'd probably just stand there and blow smoke rings out of a pipe.

I was going to say "cough into your handkerchief and order your brother to make your tea," but smoke rings work, too. ;)

[Ravingdork]

Maybe get a reach weapon and try and aid another from behind the fighter?

[Dekalinder]

hide behind a corner swearing vengance as soon as you'll get a couple more levels. Arcane caster really aren't much fun the first few levels.

[Zhayne]

Well, first, if one fight is draining all your spells, either your GM is throwing WAY high level encounters at you, or you really need to learn to conserve ammo.

Get a vial of alchemical acid, and use it as a focus for Acid Splash, getting +1 damage. The increased accuracy for targetting touch AC makes up for the lower-than-a-crossbow damage, then spam that.

Don't think of Acid Splash as your backup or 'when I'm out of useful things to do' spell. Think of it as your go-to attack spell, and reserve your higher level spells for critical moments.

RL analogy ... you have a handgun with a metric crapload of ammo, and 4 grenades. You don't throw the grenades first.

[Ravingdork]

Alchemical weapons are your low-level friends. And the best part? You can pass them out to your buddies and all bombard an otherwise hard to hit enemy for a crap load of damage.

[Zhayne]

Ravingdork wrote:

I agree with Zhayne. Alchemical weapons are your low-level friends. And the best part? You can pass them out to your buddies and all bombard an otherwise hard to hit enemy for a crap load of damage.

Not what I said at all ...

[Ravingdork]

Why, I don't know what you're talking about, Zhayne. ;P

[cnetarian]

with the right build the acid splash cantrip can be a good goto attack until you have enough real spells to use those regularly instead, the question becomes can the wizard or sorcerer you want to be work with that build? A classic is a dwarf dragonic(black)/empyreal crossblooded sorcerer who uses the racial favored class bonus to cast acid splash for 1d3+1 at level 1 and 1d3+2 at level 2 (build combines nicely with the elemental spell (acid) metamagic feat, toss acid balls around instead of fire balls). If your build doesn't support adding damage to a cantrip then use a crossbow - alchemical weapons are also an option but you might not be able to afford 10GP/round when not using spells, and watch because doing 1d3 with a cantrip to a touch AC you can hit is better than not doing 1d8 with a crossbow to a regular AC you cannot hit. Once you get a few levels under your belt (level 4-5 for me seems to be the leave the crossbow at home point) then you have enough spells to avoid the one-and-done, you can afford using scrolls, and should be looking to have some pearls/runestones of power to help keep magic flowing.

[eakratz]

Aiding another while fighting defensively is not a bad option. Especially if you have 3 ranks in acrobatics for the extra AC bump.

Also, fighting mooks is fun to do.

[Cleanthes]

It's not PFS approved, but if your DM will let you use 3.5 stuff, there's a cantrip in the 3.5 Spell Compendium called "launch bolt" that lets you shoot a crossbow bolt from your hand just like you were firing it from a light crossbow. No encumbrance from the weapon, no reloading. When the wizard character I'm presently playing was in his first levels, I used that cantrip ALL THE TIME, and was dealing damage almost as regularly as the party's martial characters, as well as helping out in other ways. And once he could afford it, he (an elf) bought himself a masterwork composite longbow and never fired another crossbow bolt again.
I also took Point-Blank Shot as my first feat and Precise Shot as my second feat to enable this strategy. Now I get great use out of those feats with rays.

[Fifo]

thanks alot guys, gives me something to contemplate

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Honestly, the best two school powers are Shift under Conjuration and Foresight in Divination. Shift replaces repeat ability to Acid Dart (or some other low level acid attack). But that's fine, you should have a decent DEX as a wizard. So grab a crossbow, you'll use it every now and again early on, and be fine with it; eventually it'll be almost all spells.

Shift, which is a swift move teleport, is way too good to pass up to be slightly more consistent at lower levels. Besides, Color Spray and Grease are your best friends early on, and you can shutdown or contain an encounter and not have to worry about needing more than 1-2 spells in a given conflict.

Also scribe scrolls early and often.

[Tomos]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I've had some success with the 1d3 damage cantrips. Acid Splash, combined with the alchemical focus item (flask of acid, from Adventurer's Armory), combined with Point Blank Shot and a good Dex, meant I'd be hitting 60% of the time for 1d3+2 damage, without going into melee. Pretty decent for something that's almost free.

This.

Not sure about how worthwhile Point Blank Shot is, unless you plan on being a Ray specialist. Maybe take it and Retrain it later?

If you took at least 12 Dex, a Light Crossbow is a totally valid choice for 1st and 2nd level. It's a fall-back tool, not a primary attack strategy. Gravity Bow and/or Magic Weapon helps. Cold Iron Bolts.

After your first treasure haul, buy or scribe as many 1st level scrolls as you can. They are very cheap, keep you in the fight, and you can make a lot of them.
Some good ones: Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Mage Armor, Burning Hands, Color Spray, Infernal Healing, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat. 25gp each / 12.5gp to make a scroll.
Use a Bandolier to keep them organized until you can afford a Handy Haversack.

A wand of Magic Missile is OK, but it's just not a fantastic choice. A wand of Grease, however, IS a fantastic choice that will be useful throughout your adventuring career.

[LazarX]

Ravingdork wrote:

Thac20 wrote:

Another option is to spend a standard action to do a knowledge role on an enemy.

Knowledge checks are non-actions insofar as I know.

Yes, but they are done on your turn.

[kyrt-ryder]

Sip tea and eat crumpets while your minions do the dirty work.

Wizards get 3 spells per day (1 for being level 1, 1 for being a specialist, and 1 for having a high Intelligence), If you manage either a starting 20 Int (which is the recommendation if PB allows), you actually get 2 1st level spells for high Intelligence, meaning 4 spells per day. Arcane Bond is an optional class feature which could increase your spells per day further.

That translates roughly to one spell per encounter, which is all a Wizard really needs. Lay down the Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, or just Enlarge the Fighter and let the beatsticks mop up while you kick back and enjoy the show.

(Alternatively, use your spell for the encounter and then hang back and support with cantrips and school powers and/or Crossbow)

[LazarX]

You think first level wizards have it rough today? First Edition AD+D, ONE spell per day... TOTAL.

[Rumtum]

Waving wands. Flanking with mirror images. Observing the battlefield and making sure he isn't going to be caught in a bad position.

[Umbranus]

Or, alternatively get the trait to use intimidate with int instead of cha and intimidate opponents when you have nothing else to do.

[Ellis Mirari]

If I ever play a wizard, I'll pick up Catch Off-Guard and my go-to tactic will be smacking enemies with books.

Especially if my GM can be convince to let me use my spellbooks in conjunction wit the Scrollmaster's abilities.

[Ascalaphus]

As a wizard in the 3-5 levels, I was rather fond of Flaming Sphere. It lasts long enough that you can do something magical every round, but doesn't obstruct any additional spellcasting you want to do.

While FS' damage isn't all that high, it does a nice job of battlefield shaping. Push it onto a monster, and chances are you've encouraged the monster to move out of that spot. Place it in a place you don't want monsters, and likely they won't go there.

You can use Dancing Lights and Ghost Sound cantrips to try to fool enemies; make it sound like you have reinforcements coming, or make them wonder if you just summoned a fire elemental or lantern archon.

[Dustin Ashe]

Cry "Fool of a Took!" whenever the party halfling does something foolish.

[Tryn]

Quote:

Insert every "use crossbow" post here

I play a wizard/sorcerer to cast spells. If I want to play a magic + ranged weapon guy I take an Inquisitor or Arcane archer...

The lack of spells, especially on the early levels is something which bothers me a lot at PF (and DnD 3.0).
It's like telling a figther "you can only do 3 attacks per day with your Greatsword".

Vote for a revamp of the school powers or the "reserve feats" from 3.5

[kyrt-ryder]

Yeah, the standard School (and Bloodline) powers NOT being At-Will was pretty bad form. Granted some of the best school powers (such as the Teleportation Specialist's Shift) do need to be limited.

[DrDeth]

Tryn wrote:

Quote:

Insert every "use crossbow" post here

I play a wizard/sorcerer to cast spells. If I want to play a magic + ranged weapon guy I take an Inquisitor or Arcane archer...

The lack of spells, especially on the early levels is something which bothers me a lot at PF (and DnD 3.0).
It's like telling a figther "you can only do 3 attacks per day with your Greatsword".

Vote for a revamp of the school powers or the "reserve feats" from 3.5

But, but everyone here SAYS spellcasters are super-duper overpowered, at all levels!?! It must be true then, right? They also say martial classes are worthless and rogues even more worthless. They say this over & over & over loudly at every chance they get, and favorite each others posts- so it must be true, right???

[kyrt-ryder]

I don't actually see anybody saying casters are super duper overpowered at low levels. I see a bunch of people saying they're right on par with Fighters and Barbarians at low levels and very quickly outstrip them.

(That being said I don't participate in every martials/casters thread, so I may have missed it.)

[DrDeth]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I don't actually see anybody saying casters are super duper overpowered at low levels. I see a bunch of people saying they're right on par with Fighters and Barbarians at low levels and very quickly outstrip them.

(That being said I don't participate in every martials/casters thread, so I may have missed it.)

Yep, and they have absolutely totally PROVED it by means of builds built for one spell such as Color spray or Burning hands- I mean, we know every monster will fall to Color spray, right? 100%? And heck , just because the spell gets useless later, then there's retraining, so....

[kyrt-ryder]

Level 1 Wizard win buttons include Color Spray, Sleep, and Grease from the core rules, I'm pretty sure there are a couple more obscure options as well. (Burning hands is generally a terrible spell IMO) These don't KILL the target sure, but an NPC Warrior hireling (or hell even a few commoner hirelings) is a cheap cleanup crew. Or you could just let the Cleric or Druid (Or even the Bard) finish it off.

The odds of the target failing its save against a spell chosen to target its weak save are much higher than its odds of success. 100%? Nah, but ~80% seems plausible.

That being said, at level 1 a greatsword is also a save or pass out against most opponents (average 13 damage assuming an 18 strength), so... things aren't too bad for the martials down here.

[Kirth Gersen]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Level 1 Wizard win buttons include Color Spray, Sleep, and Grease from the core rules, I'm pretty sure there are a couple more obscure options as well. (Burning hands is generally a terrible spell IMO)

The odds of the target failing its save against a spell chosen to target its weak save are much higher than its odds of success. 100%? Nah, but ~80% seems plausible.

That being said, at level 1 a greatsword is also a save or pass out against most opponents (average 13 damage assuming an 18 strength), so... things aren't too bad for the martials down here.

I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that rant was purely rhetorical, and that it wasn't meant as a call for an actual argument to look at.

That said, imagine this feat:

BEAT SENSELESS (COMBAT)
Prerequisite: Fighter level 1st
Benefit: Once per day as a standard action, you may batter all enemies in a 15-ft. cone. Any opponent hit is instantly dealt enough nonlethal damage to knock it unconscious (no saving throw, but damage reduction applies). Targets with over 5 HD are stunned 1 round, rather than knocked out.

I think a lot of people would instantly scream "OP!" even though it costs a feat, is usable only 1/day, and has no blindness clause. An area-effect stun is useful at any level, not just 1st.

[kyrt-ryder]

It wouldn't surprise me Kirth, but I was already here I figured I might as well give him the benefit of the doubt.

[nate lange]

LazarX wrote:

You think first level wizards have it rough today? First Edition AD+D, ONE spell per day... TOTAL.

yeah, and no free auto-hit... you got one spell per day and if it was magic missile you got one shot as if using a +2 crossbow. that might actually be going all the way back to basic- i don't remember when they switched that...

get off my lawn.

[selunatic2397]

My merry band of players still insist on First Edition rules to this day...I have to convert Paizo so I can run the adventures.

[nate lange]

selunatic2397 wrote:

My merry band of players still insist on First Edition rules to this day...I have to convert Paizo so I can run the adventures.

so, did they already make magic missile auto-hit in first edition or does it still require a ranged attack?

[DrDeth]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

That said, imagine this feat:

BEAT SENSELESS (COMBAT)
Prerequisite: Fighter level 1st
Benefit: Once per day as a standard action, you may batter all enemies in a 15-ft. cone. Any opponent hit is instantly dealt enough nonlethal damage to knock it unconscious (no saving throw, but damage reduction applies). Targets with over 5 HD are stunned 1 round, rather than knocked out.

I think a lot of people would instantly scream "OP!" even though it costs a feat, is usable only 1/day, and has no blindness clause. An area-effect stun is useful at any level, not just 1st.

Except that CS doe allow a SR (not to mention it provokes). And what's most important, being a tank in the middle of combat is a fine, true & noble thing- but being a low level full spellcaster in the middle of combat- is a"dead thing".

Sure CS is a great spell for it's level, but it requires you to get no more than 15' away from the foes- with no meat shield between you. If they make their save, you're dead. And it's REALLY hard to get more than one monster in the cone, and what to the other monsters do then? Eat your spellcasting face off.

[nate lange]

i think a considerable part of the issue comes from people's desire to be completely optimized. i'm not bashing that- i optimize all my characters (though i create a concept then make the best version of that concept i can, not just pure min/maxing). but when your character is completely optimized to cast you're definitely going to have issues at low levels when you may not have enough magic for that to be your only solution.

if you want to be completely optimized as a caster, you've already gotten good advice- load up on wands and scrolls to give yourself more magical resources; pearls of power are also great. if you want more options, pick a race with weapon familiarity (or spend a feat) and carry a real weapon, pick up some leather armor (and memorize shield instead of mage armor), and take 18 Int instead of 20 so you have some points for Str/Dex/Con- now you don't have to worry so much about getting near melee or having choice beyond 'i cast X'.

with the retrain rules you can do even more... take light armor proficiency at 1st level and wear a chain shirt; sure you'd have to roll ASF, but everyone else has to roll to hit anyways (and you only miss on 1-4 on a d20). an elven wizard could pretty easily start with 16 Dex and 18 Int in a 20 pt buy- carry a longsword and longbow, wear a chainshirt, and still be capable of casting pretty reliably (and at around 4 or 5th, when they can afford to cast all the time just pay to retrain your first feat)... honestly, you could even start as a magus for the 1st 4 levels and then retrain as full wizard at 5th (if your GM allows).

and all that is just looking at straight wizards... if you start with one martial level (for survivability and combat options) then take 1 level of wizard with the divination|scryer school you can level as an eldritch knight from 3-12th... you're one spell level behind a full wizard (2nd level spells @5, 3rd @7, etc) but you're only 1 point behind a fighter's BAB and have way more hp than most wizards...

[selunatic2397]

nate lange wrote:

selunatic2397 wrote:

My merry band of players still insist on First Edition rules to this day...I have to convert Paizo so I can run the adventures.

so, did they already make magic missile auto-hit in first edition or does it still require a ranged attack?

It auto hit...but only what you could actually see!

Plus it didn't go around corners.

1d4 plus 1 point for each missile...1 missile every other level...1 at first...2 at third...3 at fifth...ecetera with no cap.

That silly Jalansifer's trident spell...7th level...lets the caster cast 3 1st level spells at once...guess what my party mage uses?

I just have my enemy mages run a shield spell...1st level that blocks magic missile spells totally...while it lasts...

Better than eating a auto hit...no save 3 times 7 missiles [7d4 plus 7 times 3].