The Ukraine thingy


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You're talking to the wrong guy. The break-up of the Soviet Union, despite its Stalinist misleadership, was the greatest defeat for the international working class of the 20th century.

Scarab Sages

yellowdingo wrote:


Hopefully the neo nazis who siezed power in Ukraine dont have access to any Russian nukes in any of the other Ukraine black sea ports. Otherwise Russia will need to secure them all.

Well, one, the Ukraine is a nuclear power in and of itself.

Two, the 'Neo Nazis' represent one of several political parties that united to oust the previous president. A member of which currently holds authority over the Ukrainian department of agriculture. I don't see them as a major threat.

Three, the Parliament of the Ukraine voted, and passed, an impeachment of him. Something that people seem to forget and Putin seems to be trying hard to ignore.

His OWN PARTY voted in favor of the Impeachment.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
You're talking to the wrong guy. The break-up of the Soviet Union, despite its Stalinist misleadership, was the greatest defeat for the international working class of the 20th century.

I consider the long, slow death of the labor unions to be a bigger defeat myself. The workers didn't have any power in the Soviet Union to lose by it breaking up, other than some lip service that was paid to them by a ruling elite.


Baron Iveagh wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:


Hopefully the neo nazis who siezed power in Ukraine dont have access to any Russian nukes in any of the other Ukraine black sea ports. Otherwise Russia will need to secure them all.

Well, one, the Ukraine is a nuclear power in and of itself.

Two, the 'Neo Nazis' represent one of several political parties that united to oust the previous president. A member of which currently holds authority over the Ukrainian department of agriculture. I don't see them as a major threat.

And deputy prime minister, and prosecutor general. After Nuland connived to keep Svoboda and Klitschko "on the outside."


Grey Lensman wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
You're talking to the wrong guy. The break-up of the Soviet Union, despite its Stalinist misleadership, was the greatest defeat for the international working class of the 20th century.
I consider the long, slow death of the labor unions to be a bigger defeat myself. The workers didn't have any power in the Soviet Union to lose by it breaking up, other than some lip service that was paid to them by a ruling elite.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the murderous Stalinist bureaucracy was a perversion of socialism, since the restoration of capitalism in the former USSR, the Russian (and other Eastern European countries) working class has seen its standard of living slashed. The defeat of the Soviet Union and the "death of communism" emboldenend various European capitalists to begin their assaults on their respective welfare states. It emboldened US imperialism to ride roughshod around the globe from Iraq...well, back around to Iraq again. It forced the ANC to accept IMF-dictated austerity as part of the "power-sharing" with the Randlords, forced the PLO to give up and accept bantustans, etc., etc.

In comparison, I think the decline of American unions' power is small potatos. And I'm a proud Teamster.


And, just for fun, even though the story is a couple of years old,

Svoboda leader denounces Mila Kunis as a "dirty Jewess."


Reminds me though. I once sat through a speech by my local union's vice-president in which he was complaining about our Change to Win partners (former partners? I forget) in the Service Employees International Union.

"Man, you know they don't have any democracy in the SEIU?" (He says as if it didn't take a Giuliuani lawsuit to open the Teamsters up.) "I swear, sometimes I see how these other unions operate and I'd rather be in the Soviet Union!"

"Me, too, brother" I said to myself, "Me, too."


Invisible Kierkegaard wrote:
For comparison, RT's coverage of events. It's a whole other thing to them!

RT Host Abby Martin Condemns Russian Incursion Into Crimea – On RT

My journalistic flame since Alyona left makes me proud.

"American media elites awash in an orgy of feel-good condemnation in particular love to mock Russian media, especially the government-funded English-language outlet RT, as being a source of shameless pro-Putin propaganda, where free expression is strictly barred (in contrast to the Free American Media). That that network has a strong pro-Russian bias is unquestionably true. But one of its leading hosts, Abby Martin, remarkably demonstrated last night what “journalistic independence” means by ending her Breaking the Set program with a clear and unapologetic denunciation of the Russian action in Ukraine:

[Video clip]

"For all the self-celebrating American journalists and political commentators: was there even a single U.S. television host who said anything comparable to this in the lead-up to, or the early stages of, the U.S. invasion of Iraq?"


Baron Iveagh wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:


Hopefully the neo nazis who siezed power in Ukraine dont have access to any Russian nukes in any of the other Ukraine black sea ports. Otherwise Russia will need to secure them all.

Well, one, the Ukraine is a nuclear power in and of itself.

Ukraine was a nuclear power. They gave up their nuclear weapons under the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
You're talking to the wrong guy. The break-up of the Soviet Union, despite its Stalinist misleadership, was the greatest defeat for the international working class of the 20th century.
I consider the long, slow death of the labor unions to be a bigger defeat myself. The workers didn't have any power in the Soviet Union to lose by it breaking up, other than some lip service that was paid to them by a ruling elite.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the murderous Stalinist bureaucracy was a perversion of socialism, since the restoration of capitalism in the former USSR, the Russian (and other Eastern European countries) working class has seen its standard of living slashed. The defeat of the Soviet Union and the "death of communism" emboldenend various European capitalists to begin their assaults on their respective welfare states. It emboldened US imperialism to ride roughshod around the globe from Iraq...well, back around to Iraq again. It forced the ANC to accept IMF-dictated austerity as part of the "power-sharing" with the Randlords, forced the PLO to give up and accept bantustans, etc., etc.

In comparison, I think the decline of American unions' power is small potatos. And I'm a proud Teamster.

I'd say Stalinism itself was the greatest defeat for the international working class, though it took a long time to play out. It essentially discredited communism as an alternative.

The Exchange

HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.

I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
yellowdingo wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.
I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.

I don't recall that the majority of U.S. Citizens live in abject poverty, are frightened of their own government and have a northern neighbor who is run by horrible people and whom wants to annex them. Again.


thejeff wrote:
Baron Iveagh wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:


Hopefully the neo nazis who siezed power in Ukraine dont have access to any Russian nukes in any of the other Ukraine black sea ports. Otherwise Russia will need to secure them all.

Well, one, the Ukraine is a nuclear power in and of itself.

Ukraine was a nuclear power. They gave up their nuclear weapons under the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

Which, by the way, was supposed to guarantee their borders against incursion by Russia, one of the signatory nations. Russia is trying to make the argument that because the Ukrainian government has changed, all accords made with the previous Ukrainian government are null and void.

Yep.


Hama wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.
I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.
I don't recall that the majority of U.S. Citizens live in abject poverty, are frightened of their own government and have a northern neighbor who is run by horrible people and whom wants to annex them. Again.

Canada is much nicer than Russia as far as neighbors go.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Irontruth wrote:
Hama wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.
I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.
I don't recall that the majority of U.S. Citizens live in abject poverty, are frightened of their own government and have a northern neighbor who is run by horrible people and whom wants to annex them. Again.
Canada is much nicer than Russia as far as neighbors go.

They're still apologizing for that time in 1998 when a pair of Canadian moose strayed within a few miles of the Minnesota border.


I'm a little worried that CraigyFerg may be right about Pootie-Poot in his monologue (US only video, sorry). Bleh, that's scary and depressing.

I'd rather have less Putin and more Sid, the cursing rabbit, who is also scary but in a different way.

Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Svoboda leader denounces Mila Kunis as a "dirty Jewess."

Miroshnichenko better be careful, or there'll be a coup d'état, and he'll be replaced by Ashton Kutcher.

The Exchange

Hama wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.
I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.
I don't recall that the majority of U.S. Citizens live in abject poverty, are frightened of their own government and have a northern neighbor who is run by horrible people and whom wants to annex them. Again.

So Canada threatens to cut oil to the us states...

Sovereign Court

Ahahahah...dirty jewesss ahahahah...

Sovereign Court

yellowdingo wrote:
Hama wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.
I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.
I don't recall that the majority of U.S. Citizens live in abject poverty, are frightened of their own government and have a northern neighbor who is run by horrible people and whom wants to annex them. Again.
So Canada threatens to cut oil to the us states...

Funny, considering that the states pretty much produce 90% of oil they need. If not more.


Scott Betts wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Baron Iveagh wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:


Hopefully the neo nazis who siezed power in Ukraine dont have access to any Russian nukes in any of the other Ukraine black sea ports. Otherwise Russia will need to secure them all.

Well, one, the Ukraine is a nuclear power in and of itself.

Ukraine was a nuclear power. They gave up their nuclear weapons under the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

Which, by the way, was supposed to guarantee their borders against incursion by Russia, one of the signatory nations. Russia is trying to make the argument that because the Ukrainian government has changed, all accords made with the previous Ukrainian government are null and void.

Yep.

I thought they were making the argument that the government hadn't changed and that they were simply assisting the legitimate president?

Or more accurately now, that there were no Russian troops, just Russian supporting Ukrainian groups.

The Exchange

Hama wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Hama wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:

In a functional democracy, a protest is not needed to remove the president. I may think GWB and Obama are the worst president in history, but they did not, personally, violate the constitution, nor endanger the safety of the people of the US.

-Thailand, Turkey, and Ukraine, are all having trouble with multi-party democracy. A president is elected who is only popular with a minority of the people. Korea had the same problem when I was there.
-Street protests are against unelected rulers, not people you wait until their term expires.
I dont recall the wall street protests escalating into burning barricades of rubber tyres and cars while armored up police officers were being told to get rid of the protestors who were throwing Molotov cocktails and resorting to the occasional use of firearms. I suspect a large number of American deaths had it occured.
I don't recall that the majority of U.S. Citizens live in abject poverty, are frightened of their own government and have a northern neighbor who is run by horrible people and whom wants to annex them. Again.
So Canada threatens to cut oil to the us states...
Funny, considering that the states pretty much produce 90% of oil they need. If not more.

And just for that Canada turns off the maple syrup pipeline...


thejeff wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Baron Iveagh wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:


Hopefully the neo nazis who siezed power in Ukraine dont have access to any Russian nukes in any of the other Ukraine black sea ports. Otherwise Russia will need to secure them all.

Well, one, the Ukraine is a nuclear power in and of itself.

Ukraine was a nuclear power. They gave up their nuclear weapons under the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

Which, by the way, was supposed to guarantee their borders against incursion by Russia, one of the signatory nations. Russia is trying to make the argument that because the Ukrainian government has changed, all accords made with the previous Ukrainian government are null and void.

Yep.

I thought they were making the argument that the government hadn't changed and that they were simply assisting the legitimate president?

Or more accurately now, that there were no Russian troops, just Russian supporting Ukrainian groups.

The veeeeeery end of this RT article mentions Putin dismissing prior accords as relics of a now-deceased government and asserting that Russia is therefore no longer bound by those accords.


Not that it's not entirely accurate, as it is from a US site, but this is the first news that I've read from a NORMAL person from the Ukraine that I'm actually trusting to be saying more of what is ACTUALLY happening. It sounds more like what was seen in these situations from what I've seen, where normal people are not the ones in the streets and such...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/ukraine-divided-opinion-irpt/ind ex.html?hpt=hp_t1#cnn-disqus-area

"Many people in Crimea and eastern Ukraine don't want the protection of Russian President Vladimir Putin. But there are some who are afraid of forced Ukraineization because they have been fed propaganda by Russian TV channels for years. The purpose is to convince Ukrainians that we are divided, not one country, and that the safest course of action for Russian-speaking areas is to break away and join Russia....."

"I just talked to my friends in Crimea.

Yuri in Simferopol told me that it's a handful of pro-Russian extremists in the streets trying to make a scene for Russian video cameras -- they are showing that these are the Russians who request protection!

Meanwhile, the rest of the city is terrified by the presence of Russian military forces and are evacuating their families to central or western Ukraine.

I got a similar report from Luda in Kharkov. She said that a large group of Russians were brought across the border by buses, and they were the ones inspiring and instigating unrest that resulted in putting a Russian flag on a municipal building.

The amount of propaganda Russia has poured onto Ukraine is hard to comprehend. Putting troops on Ukrainian land is going to bring the very opposite result from what Putin expected: I believe it's uniting Ukraine."


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Scott Betts wrote:
The veeeeeery end of this RT article mentions Putin dismissing prior accords as relics of a now-deceased government and asserting that Russia is therefore no longer bound by those accords.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that Putin doesn't get the concept of changing governments.


Angstspawn wrote:
President Yanukovitch lost all moral legitimacy when "police" snipers shot at demonstrators.

Ah, well... Some interesting developments on that:

A recently leaked recording has the Estonian FM (just returned from a mission to Ukraine) speaking with the EU Foreign Policy/Security representative (Catherine Ashton, of the UK) stating that from what he learned there he now believes that "somebody" in the revolutionary government was behind the sniper shootings, as both protestors and police were killed by the same bullets/forensic signature. Estonia has now confirmed the authenticity of that recording.

The doctor he spoke with (the source of that info re: sniper victims) in Ukraine is a pre-eminent doctor of Ukraine, and was in charge of medical care for protestors during the Maidan events. She also stated that the revolutionary regime is not interested in fully investigating those killings now. This doctor was offered the position of Health Minister in the revolutionary regime, but she apparently turned it down because they would not accept her bringing in her own "team" with an agenda of reform and improvement to Ukraine's health system.

Here is the recording (just the sniper section), which is in English.
Confirmation/reaction from Estonia is repeated at another site (without the recording itself).
The recording discusses other topics than just just the snipers, it also covers how Parliament members are still being beaten by violent groups, and the over-all lack of trust in the new government which even at this point does not seem to be breaking itself off from corruption. Here is the full recording, the beginning is alot of dealing with operators, but the meat of the conversation starts around 2:00, with the sniper topic coming up around 8:30.

The US refused to comment, other than saying “this was another example of how the Russians work.”
The US of course being morally opposed to spying, especially on diplomats.
Or at least letting the public know what's going on, rather than just being spoon fed what the government wants them to know/think.

More broadly, the conversation as a whole shows the EU finds the situation in mainland Ukraine and Kiev itself highly problematic with a huge credibility gap for the new regime and serious problems in "freedom"... A picture that hasn't seemed to be shown much in main-stream media, which has largely played cheer-leader to the revolutionary regime, with the Crimean events being portrayed as the only major crisis.


Quandry, what's your take on Putin's claims that Russian troops aren't acting in Crimea, that it's all local self-defense groups?

"local self-defense groups" that aren't the usual poorly equipped men of all ages, but fit, disciplined young men who happen to be wearing Russian uniforms without insignia, well armed and driving Russian army trucks with mounted heavy machine guns.


Here are two incidents involving Right Sector "activists" from the past week,
I had seen the videos previously, but had not found an English source article giving either sufficient context to understand.
(the videos themselves are of course all in Russian or Ukrainian)

The first is a Right Sector leader entering the office of the local prosecutor, not actually finding the person he wanted to confront, but deciding to assault and choke the low level prosecutor he does find there. Not in that article, but from another source I can't track down, apparently he threatened vengeance against the staff if they do anything against him.

The [FIXED:] second is Right Sector thugs entering a town hall meeting in a Kiev suburb carrying sledgehammers and demanding the local politicians resign, stating that they already succeeded at the same tactic in another town. The local politicians apparently tell them that they already have resigned, likely a good tactic to avoid being crippled or killed.

This is in the context of the revolutionary regime's appointed Prosecutor General, Oleh Makhnitsky (in charge of prosecuting all crimes), being a member of Parliament for Svoboda (formerly "Social-Nationalist Party").

The revolutionary regime has been releasing "political prisoners" of Yanukovych, some of which were detained for vandalism/destruction of monuments which is uncontroversially documented, while others were themselves involved in violence against police. The revolutionaries denounced shootings by police special forces against protestors, yet hasn't yet seemed to make any distinction between alleged shootings of peaceful protestors and shootings of Molotov-throwing, fire-arm shooting violent "protestors".


Other news on Ukraine/Crimea:

NY Times: Crimean Premier Says Ukrainian Military Units Have Started to Surrender
To my knowledge the autonomous republic of Crimea is actually planning a multi-faceted referendum, with options for remaining part of Ukraine, with increased autonomy, indepenence, or seeking accession to the Russian Federation.

Kommersant: Tatarstan and Crimea signed an agreement on economic and humanitarian cooperation
That link is to a Russian language newspaper, but Google Translate seemed to handle it sufficiently (although I couldn't link the translation directly for some reason).
Tatarstan is one of two autonomous republics of the Russian Federation which is inhabited predominantly by Tatars, who are of the same ethnic group as the Crimean Tatars who comprise 20% of the Crimean peninsula (and in fact were the rulers of all of what is now SE Ukraine before Russia conquered it around the time the USA became independent). They are well-adjusted and successful with the Russian Federation... while also being predominantly Muslim they do not have the problem with Wahhabist/extreme Muslim fundamentalism seen in the muslim North Caucasus regions of Russia (Chechnya, Dagestan). I had also seen a story of one of the mainstream Muslim Tatar religious leaders from Tatarstan (Russian Federation) going to Crimea to meet with Crimean Tatars.
This is obviously in the context of this ethnic group being presented as a potential resistance to a Russia-aligned independent Crimea (or acceded to Russia), with Russia wanting to make clear that Tatars can get along just fine in modern Russia. I believe Russia also announced financial support for the Crimean Tatars, who never received any such aid when after the collapse of the USSR they were able to return to Crimea, but did so in destitute conditions considering independent Ukraine was itself destitute.

This is a bit old, from last fall, but seemed relevant to the situation in Ukraine:
61 [Israeli] MKs sign letter blasting 'Nazi' Ukrainian party

Quote:

'We cannot stand idle while facing ther rising tide of neo-Nazism,' write legislators from all parties.

"To our astonishment we find that this party is not isolated and, on the contrary, enjoys fruitful cooperation from Ukraine's two opposition parties," read the letter, adding that in publicly working alongside the "Nazi criminals," the other parties were equally guilty of their crimes.

Writing to the European Parliament, they thank them for having barred Svoboda from participating in a meeting between other [at the time] opposition parties with the EU parliament. The EU Parliament itself had warned against any cooperation with Svoboda, yet is now cooperating on some level with the revolutionary regime with Svoboda in key positions such as defense, security, and prosecutor-general.


thejeff wrote:

Quandry, what's your take on Putin's claims that Russian troops aren't acting in Crimea, that it's all local self-defense groups?

"local self-defense groups" that aren't the usual poorly equipped men of all ages, but fit, disciplined young men who happen to be wearing Russian uniforms without insignia, well armed and driving Russian army trucks with mounted heavy machine guns.

I'm not sure what you're referring, other than at the beginning of event in Crimea there was basically just alot of ambiguity as to what was happening. AFAIK, Russia is expressingly acknowledging the fact of their involvement, and defending it under the Crimean republic's request for it, the Ukrainian President's request for it, and their treaty with Ukraine authorizing up to 25,000 troops in Crimea (apparently they were only using 16,000 before, so they had some 'head room' within scope of the treaty), which they wouldn't be doing if they were denying their involvement.

The Crimean autonomous republic apparently has security forces, including police and police special forces on it's side. They now claim to have over half of Ukrainian military personnel on their side (I believe the last NYT article I linked mentions that), as well as at least some border guard units, etc. The highest rank commmander of the Ukrainian military (Navy) with clear legitimacy pledged loyalty to the Crimean republic (the Ukraininan Navy is headquartered out of Crimea), and indeed even the revolutionary's replacement for him then "defected" to Crimea. I am unclear on the exact numbers there, and between the options of pledging to the Crimean authorities and pledging to the Kiev revolutionaries there of course is the option of just resigning...

Events obviously moved very quickly, and I'd expect that ALL the forces NOW pledging loyalty to the Crimean republic were not INITIALLY involved... they hardly wanted to "telegraph" their intentions to Kiev, not much different to how the extreme Maidan factions swiftly moved to ignore the power-sharing agreement and seize power without some broad political polling... But it's seems more than plausible that a good number of especially the police forces (including "Berkut" special forces) were involved from the beginning. Regardless, it seems clear that a good number of Crimeans are backing this, which is unsurprising since Crimea in fact tried to achieve independence immediately upon dissolution of the USSR, never mind that the Maidan revolutionaries don't appear to be representative of any sort of Crimean majority, to say the least


FYI, the Right Sector leader (Aleksandr Muzychko AKA "Sasha Bely") shown in the video choking some guy is supposed to have fought in Chechnya along side the Al-Qaeda/North Caucasus Emirate fighters. Not that he's muslim or anything, but because he likes killing Russians.

Right Sector as an organization emerged during the Maidan protests, but subsumes several far-right organizations such as "Trident", "Patriot of Ukraine", "White Hammer", and the "UNA-UNSO" militia.

Interestingly, the latter group fought on the side of Transnistria which in the fall of the USSR fought a conflict with the central authorities of Moldova, whom were feared to seek to merge the county with Romania. (Transnistria being majority Russian and Ukrainian, as opposed to Romanian-related Moldovan ethnicity) Ironic, because Russian military peacekeepers later protected the Transnistr Transnistria regime/ prevented further conflict. Transnistria was part of "Novo Rossiya" won by Tsarist Russia from the Tatar Crimean Khanate in the late 18th century, Transnistria later being merged with the remainder of Moldova.

Amongst the other goals of Right Sector and Svoboda, fully legalizing fire-arms is apparently a goal of theirs, although they brag about their existing weaponry anyways.

This TIME interview with Dmitro Yarosh is interestin because in it he claims that while ignoring the EU-brokered power-sharing agreement, Right Sector was pursing separate negotiations with police forces that were un-authorized by the government at the time, i.e. the supposed political authority over the police. The outcome of that was clear when they ended the truce and moved to seize the seats of government by force, with police resistance melting away. Far-right activists whether Right Sector or Svoboda are now supposedly joining the police in patrols, etc.


thejeff wrote:

Quandry, what's your take on Putin's claims that Russian troops aren't acting in Crimea, that it's all local self-defense groups?

"local self-defense groups" that aren't the usual poorly equipped men of all ages, but fit, disciplined young men who happen to be wearing Russian uniforms without insignia, well armed and driving Russian army trucks with mounted heavy machine guns.

I don't know what his response is, but this is what I gathered.

These men came in and some had pictures of them taken or somehow (I'm not certain how) they got names of the men. These Ukrainians than went home and looked these people up on facebook. That's when the first suspicions came up that theses men taking over buildings were in fact Russian military, due to the internet searches of them matching Russian profiles instead of Ukraine.

It's still foggy about what's happening in specifically Crimea as far as the military goes...Russia is sending out a LOT of propaganda which is basically outshouting anything else coming out of there, and the private citizens stating things seem to be having their comments erased or hidden at an alarming rate (censored?), making it hard to tell.

Hence, much is word of mouth from the normal citizen there from what I can tell. LOTS of stuff from the Russians though.

However, many of the military units were joint, or basically shared facilities. Not much hope of protecting the facility when it is a joint facility.

Other facilities were taken over before any of the Ukraine military could guard it.

The ones that are guarding it are outnumbered, sometimes hundreds to one. That's a pretty tall order asking a military commander to guard their facility with a few guards against basically a full on military incursion.

It would not surprise me at all if a majority have surrendered already. I'd imagine the first line of business right now for Ukraine is to avoid a full on war with Russia, at least that's what I think. With that in mind, they are too guard their military installations, but if it becomes impossible, they are not to start a war.


Quandary wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Quandry, what's your take on Putin's claims that Russian troops aren't acting in Crimea, that it's all local self-defense groups?

"local self-defense groups" that aren't the usual poorly equipped men of all ages, but fit, disciplined young men who happen to be wearing Russian uniforms without insignia, well armed and driving Russian army trucks with mounted heavy machine guns.

I'm not sure what you're referring, other than at the beginning of event in Crimea there was basically just alot of ambiguity as to what was happening. AFAIK, Russia is expressingly acknowledging the fact of their involvement, and defending it under the Crimean republic's request for it, the Ukrainian President's request for it, and their treaty with Ukraine authorizing up to 25,000 troops in Crimea (apparently they were only using 16,000 before, so they had some 'head room' within scope of the treaty), which they wouldn't be doing if they were denying their involvement.

The Crimean autonomous republic apparently has security forces, including police and police special forces on it's side. They now claim to have over half of Ukrainian military personnel on their side (I believe the last NYT article I linked mentions that), as well as at least some border guard units, etc. The highest rank commmander of the Ukrainian military (Navy) with clear legitimacy pledged loyalty to the Crimean republic (the Ukraininan Navy is headquartered out of Crimea), and indeed even the revolutionary's replacement for him then "defected" to Crimea. I am unclear on the exact numbers there, and between the options of pledging to the Crimean authorities and pledging to the Kiev revolutionaries there of course is the option of just resigning...

Events obviously moved very quickly, and I'd expect that ALL the forces NOW pledging loyalty to the Crimean republic were not INITIALLY involved... they hardly wanted to "telegraph" their intentions to Kiev, not much different to how the extreme Maidan factions swiftly moved to...

Apparently at his press conference Tuesday. See here

Quote:
In a rambling press conference on Tuesday morning, Putin broke his silence and tried to downplay Russia’s intentions to use force. Putin also denied reports that Russian soldiers had occupied Crimea, calling them local self-defense forces, and said he doesn’t need to send troops into Ukraine – at least not yet.
Or this
Quote:

Putin denied the Russian armed forces were directly engaged in the bloodless seizure of Crimea, saying the uniformed troops without national insignia were "local self-defense forces".

"As for bringing in forces, for now there is no such need, but such a possibility exists," he said. "What could serve as a reason to use military force? It would naturally be the last resort. Absolutely the last."


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Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Invisible Kierkegaard wrote:
For comparison, RT's coverage of events. It's a whole other thing to them!

RT Host Abby Martin Condemns Russian Incursion Into Crimea – On RT

My journalistic flame since Alyona left makes me proud.

A re-educational vacation is in order!


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2007: Estonia cyber attack
2008: Georgia occupation
2014: Ukraine occupation

Of course, it's never Russia's fault...
But the scenario is all too close to what happened in Czechoslovakia in 1968:
- a pro-Russian non-democratic leader at the head of the state
- a civilian insurgency
- riots
- help demand by the kicked out pro-Russian leader
- invasion by Russian army "to protect the people"
- occupation of the country by Russia

By 1922 Soviet Union territory was mostly today's Russian territory, but over the next 70 years over a dozen countries had been invaded and integrated (directly or indirectly) to Soviet Union.

Someway Putin wants to recreate Soviet Union, now it's up to you to know on which side of History you want to stand.
Obviously tovarich Quandary shares Putin's nostalgy...


Coriat wrote:
Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Invisible Kierkegaard wrote:
For comparison, RT's coverage of events. It's a whole other thing to them!

RT Host Abby Martin Condemns Russian Incursion Into Crimea – On RT

My journalistic flame since Alyona left makes me proud.

A re-educational vacation is in order!

It's funny, isn't it, the way no American news journalists have ever quit over American coverage of Iraq, Afghanistan, the drone wars, etc. Putin pulls off a (so-far) bloodless invasion (unless something happened while I was asleep) and the rest of the world cries "Hitler!"

It really makes me f+!%ing sick to be an American sometimes.

Also, commie propaganda


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This seems a bit like iraq/kuwait all over again.


Right-wing insurgents, allied with dudes with legitimate grievances take over a good percentage of the country, kill a bunch of people, challenge local imperialist power over the region, under siege elected government calls in local imperialists.

Replace "elected government" with "military dictator" and it sounds to me a lot like France in Mali.

I don't recall many denunciations in the western press of Hollande as acting like Hitler, but maybe I missed them.


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Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Invisible Kierkegaard wrote:
For comparison, RT's coverage of events. It's a whole other thing to them!

RT Host Abby Martin Condemns Russian Incursion Into Crimea – On RT

My journalistic flame since Alyona left makes me proud.

A re-educational vacation is in order!
It's funny, isn't it, the way no American news journalists have ever quit over American coverage of Iraq, Afghanistan, the drone wars, etc.

Took me about 40s to find this. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Don't confused the bolshevik with decadent western imperialistic facts. ;)


Bazinga! I believe?

You got me.

[Proceeds to move the goal posts]

Mostly, 'cuz I got sloppy and forgot to throw in the guarded qualifiers that Glenn threw in up above.

But in honor of being bazinga!-ed, I shall, lessee, evacuate the OTD threads for 48 hours. Word is bond.

Down with Sexy Putin! (Britishiznoid, but still)

Down with blood-stained, we kill babies with killer robots, how the f+%* can anyone take this shiznit seriously didn't you read 1984? US imperialism!

For a free, independent Soviet Ukraine!

Vive le Galt!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Right-wing insurgents, allied with dudes with legitimate grievances take over a good percentage of the country, kill a bunch of people, challenge local imperialist power over the region, under siege elected government calls in local imperialists.

Replace "elected government" with "military dictator" and it sounds to me a lot like France in Mali.

I don't recall many denunciations in the western press of Hollande as acting like Hitler, but maybe I missed them.

One big difference is that Russia seems to be planning to annex Crimea outright.

You can argue that it's not much different than just installing a puppet government, but many of our puppets haven't been too puppet-like lately.


Bazinga!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, it's not cool when we do it, so when others do it, it's ok because we did it.

<head asplode>


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:

Which, by the way, was supposed to guarantee their borders against incursion by Russia, one of the signatory nations. Russia is trying to make the argument that because the Ukrainian government has changed, all accords made with the previous Ukrainian government are null and void.

Yep.

"Well, isn't that conveeenient?"

- Church Lady


Comrade Anklebiter asked me to tell you that, on the off-chance his posts contributed to your head explosion, to see below. If not, he says, nevermind.

Spoiler:

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

As a revolutonary socialist, it is a no-brainer to oppose Russia's invasion of the Ukraine. My Russian comrades, I hope, are carrying out this line as we speak, but, alas I don't speak Russian.

---

It goes without saying that the peoples of Ukraine have a right of self-determination, of full autonomy and independence. But what we are seeing today has nothing to do with the democratic will of the masses. It is a brazen and cynical act of Russian imperialism, aimed at annexing foreign territory and converting Ukraine into part of Russia's protectorate.

Today, the struggle for freedom in Russia is a struggle against the foreign policy adventurism of the current regime, which seeks collusion in forestalling its own end. The RSD calls on all sincere left and democratic forces to organize anti-war protests. Our demands:

NO RUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN WAR! NO PROVOCATIONS TO BLOODSHED IN UKRAINE!

NO PITTING AGAINST ONE ANOTHER OF THE PEOPLES OF UKRAINE AND RUSSIA!

NO INTERVENTION BY THE ARMIES OF RUSSIA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE AFFAIRS OF CRIMEA!

FREEDOM FROM DICTATORIAL ACTS AND PEACEABLE SELF-DETERMINATION FOR THE PENINSULA'S RESIDENTS!

YES TO THE UKRAINIAN WORKERS' STRUGGLE AGAINST OLIGARCHS AND CORRUPT OFFICIALS! NO TO ETHNIC CONFLICTS!

---

but he starts the piece "I welcome Russian intervention in Crimea." Which I don't (and find a troubling lack of anti-Sexy Putin sentiment in all of them as a matter of fact) but still found pretty interesting.

---

My Russian comrades, one of whom is quite hawt, getting arrested for protesting Sexy Putin.

---

Don't get me wrong, Sexy Putin out!!, but I don't see how the US is gonna win an image war.

---

Russia: Out of Ukraine!

America: Bloody Hands Off the World!

Smash Russian and US Imperialism through Workers Revolution!

---

Down with Sexy Putin! (Britishiznoid, but still)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

No, you can let Comrade know I've already become desensitized to his pinko rhetoric.

I also have a man-crush on Putin.


[Perfect segue into...]

Putin Gay Dress Up

I will leave to less perverted minds than mine to decide whether it is politically correct, anti-Putin propaganda, some mix of or lack thereof the two, whatever. I just think it's hawt.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

ROFL


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Quote:

Replace "elected government" with "military dictator" and it sounds to me a lot like France in Mali.

I don't recall many denunciations in the western press of Hollande as acting like Hitler, but maybe I missed them.

It's easy to convince people using lies Anklebiter!

The northern part of Mali was under the control of foreign terrorists. Yes Anklebiter, people speaking arabian for most of them, destroying centuries old cultural monuments and sentencing people sometimes without judging them. But maybe you'll say they were ethnical minorities...

Under pressure the Mali president came to France by mid-november 2012 to ask for military help.
France agreed but before doing anything went in front on United Nation council, explained the situation and asked if the UN considered such a military action legal.
Of the 15 members of UN council, 15 voted a resolution allowing France military action by the end of december 2012.
As the situation was going badly, France forces attacked armed groups on pick-up with heavy machineguns by january 11th 2013.

Once the situation was better, France helped for new elections. UN and EU observers were present and no one noticed any manipulation.

So my dear Anklebiter we're very far from your assessments.
You shouldn't believe all that's written in Pravda!!


thejeff wrote:


"local self-defense groups" that aren't the usual poorly equipped men of all ages, but fit, disciplined young men who happen to be wearing Russian uniforms without insignia, well armed and driving Russian army trucks with mounted heavy machine guns.

Most likely russian military. Trucks are easy,but horrendously pricy nightvision and thermal sights are not so much.Also,veery advanced electronic equipment,which wasn't there in 08. Either russians or VERY prepared ukrainian SD force.Like,a few years of preparation.

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