So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
Design Manager
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I have pointed out before that this and the double weapons argument are like arguing that reach weapons can attack adjacent creatures because whip!
First of all, that's offensive. You are insulting the intelligence of the people you are talking to by undermining their statements with stupid and false equivalencies. Don't be a jerk, it's against the rules.
You have pointed out a specific case where for a narrow purpose a portion of a weapon is treated as a seperate object. However, the exception doesn't change the rule. In general, i.e. unless specified otherwise, a weapon is treaded as a whole single object.
There are numerous instances where parts of items are referenced individually from an item. Just because something is part of a greater whole doesn't prevent it from being a thing in its own right. An American doesn't stop being a human because they're an American. A wheel doesn't stop being a wheel because it's part of a cart. Objects don't stop existing when they become part of other objects, like pommels becoming part of swords, or hafts becoming part of axes or spears, and nothing in the rules says that they do.
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Actually, I made the same argument in that thread I'm making here, and yeah, SKR said "Humans don't have a tail, can't make a tail attack". So what? He's a) wrong about that (factually some humans do have tails) and b) his personal house rules are utterly irrelevant to my game.
Yeah, when you state a developer is wrong and that their rules don't apply I quit reading.
So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
My reply was actually directed at PW, but you did not answer either question. You posted rules about gold weapons.
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There are numerous instances where parts of items are referenced individually from an item. Just because something is part of a greater whole doesn't prevent it from being a thing in its own right. An American doesn't stop being a human because they're an American. A wheel doesn't stop being a wheel because it's part of a cart. Objects don't stop existing when they become part of other objects, like pommels becoming part of swords, or hafts becoming part of axes or spears, and nothing in the rules says that they do.
Did I not state that generally a weapon is treated as a single whole object unless otherwise specified. In those instances it is otherwise specified! However, this does not change how weapons are generally treated. Do the rules for improvised weapons specify otherwise? No. In fact if you consider all parts of any object to be seperate objects that entire line in the improvised weapons rules becomes meaningless because ANYTHING at all can now be used as an improvised weapon.
My reply was actually directed at PW, but you did not answer either question. You posted rules about gold weapons.So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
And you originally posted:
"Ok, I construct a ceremonial long spear made of gold". It was not crafted to be a weapon although it is exactly similar to every other long spear.
So I have a spear that wasn't crafted to be a weapon. Can I use it as an improvised weapon? Even though when crafting it I never intended to use it as a weapon, it is identical to other spears, does it get regular weapon stats for a spear (less the adjustment for being made of gold.)
So, the answer to your question, no, you cannot use it as an improvised weapon because there are rules that tell you what to do if you craft a ceremonial weapon made of gold.
Yes, it will have the same stats as a gold spear, except it's fragile, has half the hardness and does 2 less damage.
There are numerous instances where parts of items are referenced individually from an item. Just because something is part of a greater whole doesn't prevent it from being a thing in its own right. An American doesn't stop being a human because they're an American. A wheel doesn't stop being a wheel because it's part of a cart. Objects don't stop existing when they become part of other objects, like pommels becoming part of swords, or hafts becoming part of axes or spears, and nothing in the rules says that they do.Did I not state that generally a weapon is treated as a single whole object unless otherwise specified. In those instances it is otherwise specified! However, this does not change how weapons are generally treated. Do the rules for improvised weapons specify otherwise? No. In fact if you consider all parts of any object to be seperate objects that entire line in the improvised weapons rules becomes meaningless because ANYTHING at all can now be used as an improvised weapon.
So, can I use the hilt of my dagger as another improvised dagger? Or since its not sharp and the only thing close to it is a rock, will it do d2 or a flat 1 damage?
/sarcasm
First off, FAQ'd. That said...
This debate is hilarious. Well, it's tragicomedy, really. I went through so many mental reversals thinking about this.
First thought- This IS stupid. "Butt end of a spear" is just a false distinction attempting to distinguish an arbitrary section of the spear from the spear as a whole. Improvised weapon rules are specifically stated to be for items not originally intended to be used as weapons.
Second thought- But then what about the butt of a musket? The above interpretation would by extension mean that you couldn't hit people with the butt of your musket. Which is also stupid. On the other hand, a musket is designed to be used as a ranged weapon, which is what makes its use in melee "improvised," no?
Third thought (after referring to the text)- Wait a moment. As far as I can tell, it is actually only implied and not directly stated by RAW that improvised weapons can't be things originally intended as weapons.
Fourth thought- Maybe the key to interpreting this is the word "improvised." You can use the butt of your spear (or musket, or whatever) as an improvised weapon when you are, well, improvising; if you're doing it regularly (just to get around reach rules) then it doesn't apply.
Fifth thought- But of course that's just a personal interpretation and doesn't carry any weight...
Sixth thought- Holy crap, why is something this ridiculous so complicated?
Seventh thought- Well screw it, it's FAQ'd. There is no "correct" answer to this, so we just have to wait on a response from above. As with so many things, the only answer is to wait and see, and in the meantime don't go basing any builds around this, no matter how right you think your interpretation may be. Table variance. GM decides.
Eighth Thought- It's times like this when I really understand the third edition designer who said of the system "Dear god, what have we wrought?"
EDIT: For what it matters, my vote here is no. Seems like a definite glaring no by RAI. RAW here is admittedly a bit murky.
My reply was actually directed at PW, but you did not answer either question. You posted rules about gold weapons.So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
And you originally posted:
"Ok, I construct a ceremonial long spear made of gold". It was not crafted to be a weapon although it is exactly similar to every other long spear.
So I have a spear that wasn't crafted to be a weapon. Can I use it as an improvised weapon? Even though when crafting it I never intended to use it as a weapon, it is identical to other spears, does it get regular weapon stats for a spear (less the adjustment for being made of gold.)
So, the answer to your question, no, you cannot use it as an improvised weapon because there are rules that tell you what to do if you craft a ceremonial weapon made of gold.
Yes, it will have the same stats as a gold spear, except it's fragile, has half the hardness and does 2 less damage.
I didn't craft the object to be a weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects not crafted to be weapons.
I didn't craft the object to be a weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects not crafted to be weapons.My reply was actually directed at PW, but you did not answer either question. You posted rules about gold weapons.So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
And you originally posted:
"Ok, I construct a ceremonial long spear made of gold". It was not crafted to be a weapon although it is exactly similar to every other long spear.
So I have a spear that wasn't crafted to be a weapon. Can I use it as an improvised weapon? Even though when crafting it I never intended to use it as a weapon, it is identical to other spears, does it get regular weapon stats for a spear (less the adjustment for being made of gold.)
So, the answer to your question, no, you cannot use it as an improvised weapon because there are rules that tell you what to do if you craft a ceremonial weapon made of gold.
Yes, it will have the same stats as a gold spear, except it's fragile, has half the hardness and does 2 less damage.
And in this case we're dealing with a matter of RAW vs. RAI
so here, just to make you realize how silly your claim is.
I'm a dwarven blacksmith, and a merchant.
I craft an Adamantine Greataxe for the explicit purpose of selling it. I'm not crafting it to be a weapon, I'm crafting it to sell it. Although it will in every way function of a weapon of it's design.
Should a barbarian who buys this Greataxe from the merchant use it as an improvised weapon? No. Because just like the Gold, there is the Adamantine.
If so, I feel REALLY bad for that barbarian, because he got screwed.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding...
Fighters to your corners.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding...
Fighters to your corners.
I'm not fighting, I'm trying to use logic and reasoning to win the internets... Oh wait
Never mind, I guess I'm done with this thread.
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Whispering Shrike from Jade Regent, notes that the blade is fine but the pommel is damaged.
Dragonskin Grips can only be used on a weapon with a hilt or pommel, reinforcing the fact that those exist in their own right.
The Shang Gou specifies that the tip of the hilt is sharpened for combat. So, if a hilt isn't sharpened for combat... then that would mean it's not intended for combat, right? Making it perfectly qualified for use as an improvised weapon.
@PatientWolf
You're saying weapons are one thing unless specified otherwise, but all through the books hafts, pommels, etc. are all specified as existing in their own right. A pommel is a pommel. It is also part of a sword. Something that affects the sword, affects the pommel, but that doesn't stop the pommel from existing in its own right, and it doesn't stop me from hitting someone with just the pommel (not intended as a weapon) instead of hitting them with the whole sword.
Whispering Shrike from Jade Regent, notes that the blade is fine but the pommel is damaged.
Dragonskin Grips can only be used on a weapon with a hilt or pommel, reinforcing the fact that those exist in their own right.
The Shang Gou specifies that the tip of the hilt is sharpened for combat. So, if a hilt isn't sharpened for combat... then that would mean it's not intended for combat, right? Making it perfectly qualified for use as an improvised weapon.
@PatientWolf
You're saying weapons are one thing unless specified otherwise, but all through the books hafts, pommels, etc. are all specified as existing in their own right. A pommel is a pommel. It is also part of a sword. Something that affects the sword, affects the pommel, but that doesn't stop the pommel from existing in its own right, and it doesn't stop me from hitting someone with just the pommel (not intended as a weapon) instead of hitting them with the whole sword.
Okay, you win that part of the argument, fine, they exist in their own right. But you did say that they are "also" a part of the whole, correct? In which case, since the "whole" spear is a reach weapon, any and all parts of it's "whole" should fall under any and all criteria of the weapon.
Reach weapons, as I've stated earlier cannot be used against an adjacent opponent, nor can any components of their whole. Unless of course we go back to the argument that was made earlier that they are a completely separate entity from the weapon itself which you claimed just now that it is not.
I didn't craft the object to be a weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects not crafted to be weapons.My reply was actually directed at PW, but you did not answer either question. You posted rules about gold weapons.So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
And you originally posted:
"Ok, I construct a ceremonial long spear made of gold". It was not crafted to be a weapon although it is exactly similar to every other long spear.
So I have a spear that wasn't crafted to be a weapon. Can I use it as an improvised weapon? Even though when crafting it I never intended to use it as a weapon, it is identical to other spears, does it get regular weapon stats for a spear (less the adjustment for being made of gold.)
So, the answer to your question, no, you cannot use it as an improvised weapon because there are rules that tell you what to do if you craft a ceremonial weapon made of gold.
Yes, it will have the same stats as a gold spear, except it's fragile, has half the hardness and does 2 less damage.
And in this case we're dealing with a matter of RAW vs. RAI
so here, just to make you realize how silly your claim is.
I'm a dwarven blacksmith, and a merchant.
I craft an Adamantine Greataxe for the explicit purpose of selling it. I'm not crafting it to be a weapon, I'm crafting it to sell it. Although it will in every way function of a...
RAI arguements have already been dismissed as it relevent by your side. If you wish to live in the land of RAI then you must deal with the fact that the designers have said the game rules are meant to be read with common sense. Common sense dictates that you can hit the person next to you with the stick in your hand, whether or not it has a point at the other end.
But by straight raw the ceremonial spear would carry stats as a regular spear but also be eligible to be used as an improvised weapon.
Whispering Shrike from Jade Regent, notes that the blade is fine but the pommel is damaged.
Dragonskin Grips can only be used on a weapon with a hilt or pommel, reinforcing the fact that those exist in their own right.
The Shang Gou specifies that the tip of the hilt is sharpened for combat. So, if a hilt isn't sharpened for combat... then that would mean it's not intended for combat, right? Making it perfectly qualified for use as an improvised weapon.
@PatientWolf
You're saying weapons are one thing unless specified otherwise, but all through the books hafts, pommels, etc. are all specified as existing in their own right. A pommel is a pommel. It is also part of a sword. Something that affects the sword, affects the pommel, but that doesn't stop the pommel from existing in its own right, and it doesn't stop me from hitting someone with just the pommel (not intended as a weapon) instead of hitting them with the whole sword.Okay, you win that part of the argument, fine, they exist in their own right. But you did say that they are "also" a part of the whole, correct? In which case, since the "whole" spear is a reach weapon, any and all parts of it's "whole" should fall under any and all criteria of the weapon.
Reach weapons, as I've stated earlier cannot be used against an adjacent opponent, nor can any components of their whole. Unless of course we go back to the argument that was made earlier that they are a completely separate entity from the weapon itself which you claimed just now that it is not.
I don't think anyone is claiming they are seperate. Distinct yes, different yes, but not separate. If I did use that word it was lazy linguistics on my part and I will make an effort not to use it again.
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Design Manager
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Reach weapons, as I've stated earlier cannot be used against an adjacent opponent, nor can any components of their whole. Unless of course we go back to the argument that was made earlier that they are a completely separate entity from the weapon itself which you claimed just now that it is not.
You've got no RAW support backing the statement I bolded above. A pommel is a pommel. A haft is a haft. Just because I cannot attack an enemy with the whole of a spear doesn't mean I can't bash him with the haft.
A long spear is a reach weapon. A pole is not and does not have reach. See this post from James Jacobs: "If you use a weapon as an improvised weapon, you're not using it as it was intended to be used. You thus don't gain any of the trip, reach, disarm, whatever type benefits granted by the weapon".
I know JJ's not "a rules guy", but I think any of the other devs would probably agree with the above statement.
...I didn't craft the object to be a weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects not crafted to be weapons.My reply was actually directed at PW, but you did not answer either question. You posted rules about gold weapons.So that answers the seconds question. Yes, it will have stats as a long spear.
It does not answer the first. Improvised weapons rules say objects not crafted to be weapons may be used as improvised weapons. This definitely qualifies.
I posted the exact thing you were looking for. It even says in the Gold weapons "Typically only used for ceremonial weapons and armor"
Sure, it was intended to be a ceremonial piece, but none-the-less will probably see combat.
It has stats and a separate section dedicated, just to it.
And you originally posted:
"Ok, I construct a ceremonial long spear made of gold". It was not crafted to be a weapon although it is exactly similar to every other long spear.
So I have a spear that wasn't crafted to be a weapon. Can I use it as an improvised weapon? Even though when crafting it I never intended to use it as a weapon, it is identical to other spears, does it get regular weapon stats for a spear (less the adjustment for being made of gold.)
So, the answer to your question, no, you cannot use it as an improvised weapon because there are rules that tell you what to do if you craft a ceremonial weapon made of gold.
Yes, it will have the same stats as a gold spear, except it's fragile, has half the hardness and does 2 less damage.
And in this case we're dealing with a matter of RAW vs. RAI
so here, just to make you realize how silly your claim is.
I'm a dwarven blacksmith, and a merchant.
I craft an Adamantine Greataxe for the explicit purpose of selling it. I'm not crafting it to be a weapon, I'm crafting it to sell it. Although it will
So the Adamantine Greataxe my dwarven blacksmith/merchant made can be used as both an improvised weapon and a regular weapon?
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Holy crap, where has that quote been this whole thread?
@Sindalla - RAW says yes. So do I.
Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.
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RAI arguements have already been dismissed as it relevent by your side. If you wish to live in the land of RAI then you must deal with the fact that the designers have said the game rules are meant to be read with common sense. Common sense dictates that you can hit the person next to you with the stick in your hand, whether or not it has a point at the other end.
But this argument is a great example of why just urging people to use "common sense" doesn't work. One man's common sense is another man's idiocy. For instance, your gut reaction is "well, it's just common sense that you can hit someone with the shaft of your spear." My gut reaction is "it's just common sense that you're not supposed to be trying to circumvent reach rules this way."
EDIT: I think we ought to take into consideration the fact that ruling that this is allowable means that you can now take a feat (Catch Off Guard) in order to negate the penalty of using a reach weapon (kinda sorta, anyway). Maybe that's fine. Maybe it's not. But it's worth thinking about.
RAI arguements have already been dismissed as it relevent by your side. If you wish to live in the land of RAI then you must deal with the fact that the designers have said the game rules are meant to be read with common sense. Common sense dictates that you can hit the person next to you with the stick in your hand, whether or not it has a point at the other end.But this argument is a great example of why just urging people to use "common sense" doesn't work. One man's common sense is another man's idiocy. For instance, your gut reaction is "well, it's just common sense that you can hit someone with the shaft of your spear." My gut reaction is "it's just common sense that you're not supposed to be trying to circumvent reach rules this way."
Exactly. Also, I'm not saying that it makes no sense that you can hit someone with the butt-end of a spear, I think you should definitely be able to. But in the process, you could stab yourself with it by accident, or let it slide too far on a swing and gash your palm open. Because of these small examples, you can simulate those as "improvised" and thus why the -4 to attack rolls comes in.
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Reach weapons, as I've stated earlier cannot be used against an adjacent opponent, nor can any components of their whole. Unless of course we go back to the argument that was made earlier that they are a completely separate entity from the weapon itself which you claimed just now that it is not.You've got no RAW support backing the statement I bolded above. A pommel is a pommel. A haft is a haft. Just because I cannot attack an enemy with the whole of a spear doesn't mean I can't bash him with the haft.
A long spear is a reach weapon. A pole is not and does not have reach. See this post from James Jacobs: "If you use a weapon as an improvised weapon, you're not using it as it was intended to be used. You thus don't gain any of the trip, reach, disarm, whatever type benefits granted by the weapon".
I know JJ's not "a rules guy", but I think any of the other devs would probably agree with the above statement.
James Jacobs is on record as disliking people classifying him as "not a rules guy". True, his current job description does not place him within the design team, but he is a VERY experienced rules designer and GM.
My stance on his comments is that barring direct contradiction from the Paizo Design Team, James has as good a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the rules as anyone, and if he considers something reasonable, then it's reasonable.
This is not to say that his above quoted statement is to be taken as what the rules actually say, but instead that his words should be given serious weight regarding good GMing practices.
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Design Manager
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we're still waiting for you to quote the part of the rules that says the shaft of my spear is not an object... barring those rules, it is, in fact, an object and can be used as an improvised weapon.Even if it can be improvised you still can't hit or threaten both 5 ft and 10ft since reach weapons only threaten at 10 ft
I don't think anyone has argued that you can. You can only "wield" one two handed weapon at a time, so you're either "wielding" the haft of your spear, or you're "wielding" the spear. The rules for regrabbing a weapon list the action as a free action, and since no special rules exist for taking that action outside your turn, whichever weapon you're wielding at the end of your turn, haft or spear, is the one you threaten with.
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James Jacobs is on record as disliking people classifying him as "not a rules guy". True, his current job description does not place him within the design team, but he is a VERY experienced rules designer and GM.
My stance on his comments is that barring direct contradiction from the Paizo Design Team, James has as good a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the rules as anyone, and if he considers something reasonable, then it's reasonable.
This is not to say that his above quoted statement is to be taken as what the rules actually say, but instead that his words should be given serious weight regarding good GMing practices.
100% agreed. My statement is because whenever I reference something JJ has said, some snobby know-it-all inevitably leaps in with that disclaimer, as though their opinion somehow outweighs the creative director of the game just because his title and direct job function aren't specifically in that area anymore.
I actually know that JJ had a lot to do with the rules development for Mythic; Erik Mona described the creation of that project as locking JJ and JB in a room until they came out with something they both agreed on.
Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.
I have quoted the RAW. It is a greataxe, so you can use it as a greataxe. It was not crafted to be a weapon so you can use it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects "not crafted to be weapons" as improvised weapons.
The scenario you describe may be circumspect because he was crafting it to be sold as a weapon, so while crafting it he knew that it was intended to see combat as a weapon.
The example with a ceremonial long spear doesn't have that restriction, because the crafter never intended for it to see combat.
Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.I have quoted the RAW. It is a greataxe, so you can use it as a greataxe. It was not crafted to be a weapon so you can use it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects "not crafted to be weapons" as improvised weapons.
The scenario you describe may be circumspect because he was crafting it to be sold as a weapon, so while crafting it he knew that it was intended to see combat as a weapon.
The example with a ceremonial long spear doesn't have that restriction, because the crafter never intended for it to see combat.
Quote it again please, because I can't find it.
James Jacobs is on record as disliking people classifying him as "not a rules guy". True, his current job description does not place him within the design team, but he is a VERY experienced rules designer and GM.
My stance on his comments is that barring direct contradiction from the Paizo Design Team, James has as good a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the rules as anyone, and if he considers something reasonable, then it's reasonable.
This is not to say that his above quoted statement is to be taken as what the rules actually say, but instead that his words should be given serious weight regarding good GMing practices.
100% agreed. My statement is because whenever I reference something JJ has said, some snobby know-it-all inevitably leaps in with that disclaimer, as though their opinion somehow outweighs the creative director of the game just because his title and direct job function aren't specifically in that area anymore.
I actually know that JJ had a lot to do with the rules development for Mythic; Erik Mona described the creation of that project as locking JJ and JB in a room until they came out with something they both agreed on.
Awesome. Hadn't heard that, before. Here's another example: the kingdom rules in Ultimate Campaign. The designer in charge of that chapter was Sean. Except they were actually written by Jason Nelson, and Sean did a design pass on them to tweak them as PDT wanted them. Except Jason's work was just (just? Hah! I have every respect for what Jason did) a modification to the original rules written by, oh, what was his name, again? Oh, yeah. James Jacobs. Without James's original work, one entire chapter of UCam wouldn't exist (at least not in the form we know them).
James is absolutely "a rules guy". He's just not in the design team.
(Think we've bigged James up enough, yet?)
Quote it again please, because I can't find it.Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.I have quoted the RAW. It is a greataxe, so you can use it as a greataxe. It was not crafted to be a weapon so you can use it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects "not crafted to be weapons" as improvised weapons.
The scenario you describe may be circumspect because he was crafting it to be sold as a weapon, so while crafting it he knew that it was intended to see combat as a weapon.
The example with a ceremonial long spear doesn't have that restriction, because the crafter never intended for it to see combat.
No Problem:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat—commonly bottles, chair legs, stray femurs, and that sort of thing. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a critical threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
emphasis mine.
100% agreed. My statement is because whenever I reference something JJ has said, some snobby know-it-all inevitably leaps in with that disclaimer, as though their opinion somehow outweighs the creative director of the game just because his title and direct job function aren't specifically in that area anymore.I actually know that JJ had a lot to do with the rules development for Mythic; Erik Mona described the creation of that project as locking JJ and JB in a room until they came out with something they both agreed on.
Sure, and I can't speak for the entire internet, obviously, but I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from JJ when they say stuff like that. I'm running Red Hand of Doom right now, and holy crap it's awesome. James Jacobs is the man.
That said... I have read James Jacobs rulings on things that I found highly questionable. I have never once had that experience with, for instance, Jason Buhlman.
I think when people say JJ is "not a rules guy" they don't mean that he's not competent or knowledgeable. They mean more that maybe he just doesn't have as much patience for rules nitpicking and fine RAW distinctions. I sometimes feel like he's sort of thinking "Hell, people, this isn't complicated. Just do X. Isn't it obvious we intended you to do X?" And who can blame him, considering some of the stuff that gets brought up here? But still, to people who are "rules guys" that approach maybe isn't always super satisfactory.
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Plus, James' statement speak directly to RAI. Which, I do not disregard as some others do in this thread. I say that RAI is equally if not more important than RAW in the rules forum.
James' statement directly addresses that the improvised weapon rules are intended to be used with weapons. Also, that weapons then loose special features and SPECIFICALLY CALLS OUT REACH AS AN EXAMPLE!!!!
After the revelation of that quote, this thread really is just squabbling over spilled milk from the nay-sayers.
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Design Manager
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***EDIT: I think we ought to take into consideration the fact that ruling that this is allowable means that you can now take a feat (Catch Off Guard) in order to negate the penalty of using a reach weapon (kinda sorta, anyway). Maybe that's fine. Maybe it's not. But it's worth thinking about.
Not really. It no more negates the penalty for wielding a reach weapon than wearing armor spikes, gauntlets, or carrying a broken bottle on a weapon cord. Less so really, since the gauntlets and armor spikes can be enchanted and gain other benefits in their own right, where the spear haft cannot.
emphasis mine.Quote it again please, because I can't find it.Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.I have quoted the RAW. It is a greataxe, so you can use it as a greataxe. It was not crafted to be a weapon so you can use it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects "not crafted to be weapons" as improvised weapons.
The scenario you describe may be circumspect because he was crafting it to be sold as a weapon, so while crafting it he knew that it was intended to see combat as a weapon.
The example with a ceremonial long spear doesn't have that restriction, because the crafter never intended for it to see combat.
No Problem:
[quote:"CRB"]Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat—commonly bottles, chair legs, stray femurs, and that sort of thing. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a critical threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Excellent, thank you.
Also, I believe you said in an earlier post that the Gold longspear would have the stats of the spear and count as an improvised weapon?
Just so I'm not twisting your words;
RAI arguements have already been dismissed as it relevent by your side. If you wish to live in the land of RAI then you must deal with the fact that the designers have said the game rules are meant to be read with common sense. Common sense dictates that you can hit the person next to you with the stick in your hand, whether or not it has a point at the other end.
But by straight raw the ceremonial spear would carry stats as a regular spear but also be eligible to be used as an improvised weapon.
Where is the "strict RAW" for the italicized part?
Based on the strict RAW you quoted me, I would come to think that you can only use it as one or the other, not both.
***EDIT: I think we ought to take into consideration the fact that ruling that this is allowable means that you can now take a feat (Catch Off Guard) in order to negate the penalty of using a reach weapon (kinda sorta, anyway). Maybe that's fine. Maybe it's not. But it's worth thinking about.Not really. It no more negates the penalty for wielding a reach weapon than wearing armor spikes, gauntlets, or carrying a broken bottle on a weapon cord. Less so really, since the gauntlets and armor spikes can be enchanted and gain other benefits in their own right, where the spear haft cannot.
You have a point... I'm so used to playing unarmored characters that I never think about gauntlets and armor spikes (both of which always seemed a bit cheap to me). But, yeah. I suppose this is true in most cases. (Not so much the bottle on weapon cord thing, though. If you already have a weapon dangling from the cord, you wouldn't be able to use the spear, no?)
Though on the other hand, you're also still getting 1.5X Strength from this improvised spear thing, which you aren't from the gauntlet. That's a pretty big advantage.
Quote it again please, because I can't find it.Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.I have quoted the RAW. It is a greataxe, so you can use it as a greataxe. It was not crafted to be a weapon so you can use it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects "not crafted to be weapons" as improvised weapons.
The scenario you describe may be circumspect because he was crafting it to be sold as a weapon, so while crafting it he knew that it was intended to see combat as a weapon.
The example with a ceremonial long spear doesn't have that restriction, because the crafter never intended for it to see combat.
No Problem:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat—commonly bottles, chair legs, stray femurs, and that sort of thing. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a critical threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.emphasis mine.Excellent, thank you.
Also, I believe you said in an earlier post that the Gold longspear would have the stats of the spear and count as an improvised weapon?
Just so I'm not twisting your words;
RAI arguements have already been dismissed as it relevent by your side. If you wish to live in the land of RAI then you must...
No, it is exactly a spear. Spears are well defined game items. They have stats and they must be used. That's all well and good. I think we all agree that spears are spears.
This particular spear was not crafted to be a weapon. Therefore, it also get the benefits of qualifying for improvised weapon rules, quoted above.
...Quote it again please, because I can't find it.Quote me the RAW and that should solve this entire thread. If I can use an Adamantine Greataxe as an improvised weapon AND a normal weapon. I can do the exact same thing with a longspear.I have quoted the RAW. It is a greataxe, so you can use it as a greataxe. It was not crafted to be a weapon so you can use it as an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons say you can use objects "not crafted to be weapons" as improvised weapons.
The scenario you describe may be circumspect because he was crafting it to be sold as a weapon, so while crafting it he knew that it was intended to see combat as a weapon.
The example with a ceremonial long spear doesn't have that restriction, because the crafter never intended for it to see combat.
No Problem:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat—commonly bottles, chair legs, stray femurs, and that sort of thing. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a critical threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.emphasis mine.Excellent, thank you.
Also, I believe you said in an earlier post that the Gold longspear would have the stats of the spear and count as an improvised weapon?
Just so I'm not twisting your words;
RAI arguements have already been dismissed as it relevent by your side. If you wish to
So, would you get the Spear damage (1d8) but not get the X3 damage on a critical hit, nor the special features (brace and reach)?
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I just read the OP's OP one more time and something clicked.
Spears aren't meant to be used on adjacent enemies, right?
Since that isn't their purpose, could you not just use the improvised weapon rules to swing at the enemy regardless of whether or not you use the blunt end?
At that point, since it is an improvised weapon, it loses it's reach feature and must be used on an adjacent foe.
At this point you also no longer have to let go and re-grip, all you've got to do is just swing it in a way you're not trained to do. Hence the -4.
If used as an improvised weapon, correct. However, it could also be used as a spear because it is a spear.
The crafter did not craft it to be a weapon. It is nonetheless a weapon, it is a spear. So it may be used as a spear.
Because it was not crafted to be a weapon then it may also be used as an improvised weapon.
It qualifies for both uses.
There doesn't need to be a specific rule to spell that out, just as there doesn't need to be a specific rule to say that a character can have one level of dragon disciple and can also take weapon specialization feat.
As long as the character qualifies for those choices they may take them.
This item qualifies for both a spear and an improvised weapon and can be used as either.
I just read the OP's OP one more time and something clicked.
Spears aren't meant to be used on adjacent enemies, right?
Since that isn't their purpose, could you not just use the improvised weapon rules to swing at the enemy regardless of whether or not you use the blunt end?
At that point, since it is an improvised weapon, it loses it's reach feature and must be used on an adjacent foe.
At this point you also no longer have to let go and re-grip, all you've got to do is just swing it in a way you're not trained to do. Hence the -4.
Yep, that's really what we have been trying to get across all along.
edit: The way that really makes the most sense to me is cross-checking.
If used as an improvised weapon, correct. However, it could also be used as a spear because it is a spear.
The crafter did not craft it to be a weapon. It is nonetheless a weapon, it is a spear. So it may be used as a spear.
Because it was not crafted to be a weapon then it may also be used as an improvised weapon.
It qualifies for both uses.
There doesn't need to be a specific rule to spell that out, just as there doesn't need to be a specific rule to say that a character can have one level of dragon disciple and can also take weapon specialization feat.
As long as the character qualifies for those choices they may take them.
This item qualifies for both a spear and an improvised weapon and can be used as either.
So, let's assume a hill giant is using a medium sized Earth Breaker as a meat tenderizer. Can it qualify as an improvised weapon and a normal Earth Breaker?
Flavor Text
The crude metal of this massive hammer’s head ends in multiple blunt spikes that channel the momentum of a powerful swing.
I just read the OP's OP one more time and something clicked.
Spears aren't meant to be used on adjacent enemies, right?
Since that isn't their purpose, could you not just use the improvised weapon rules to swing at the enemy regardless of whether or not you use the blunt end?
At that point, since it is an improvised weapon, it loses it's reach feature and must be used on an adjacent foe.
At this point you also no longer have to let go and re-grip, all you've got to do is just swing it in a way you're not trained to do. Hence the -4.
Yep, that's really what we have been trying to get across all along.
edit: The way that really makes the most sense to me is cross-checking.
Interesting, so, if you do this, it still keeps all the stats of the spear?
If used as an improvised weapon, correct. However, it could also be used as a spear because it is a spear.
The crafter did not craft it to be a weapon. It is nonetheless a weapon, it is a spear. So it may be used as a spear.
Because it was not crafted to be a weapon then it may also be used as an improvised weapon.
It qualifies for both uses.
There doesn't need to be a specific rule to spell that out, just as there doesn't need to be a specific rule to say that a character can have one level of dragon disciple and can also take weapon specialization feat.
As long as the character qualifies for those choices they may take them.
This item qualifies for both a spear and an improvised weapon and can be used as either.
So, let's assume a hill giant is using a medium sized Earth Breaker as a meat tenderizer. Can it qualify as an improvised weapon and a normal Earth Breaker?
Flavor Text
The crude metal of this massive hammer’s head ends in multiple blunt spikes that channel the momentum of a powerful swing.
In this case the rules do make a difference between "using" and "crafted as." If he crafted a meat tenderizer for his own use that just so happened to exactly be a medium earth breaker, then yes. If someone else crafted it as a medium earth breaker and he found it and used it as a meat tenderizer then no.
I should say that I realize just how ridiculous this is. This is really intended to demonstrate that RAW strictly applied is no way to run a game OR to read the rules.
Interesting, so, if you do this, it still keeps all the stats of the spear?I just read the OP's OP one more time and something clicked.
Spears aren't meant to be used on adjacent enemies, right?
Since that isn't their purpose, could you not just use the improvised weapon rules to swing at the enemy regardless of whether or not you use the blunt end?
At that point, since it is an improvised weapon, it loses it's reach feature and must be used on an adjacent foe.
At this point you also no longer have to let go and re-grip, all you've got to do is just swing it in a way you're not trained to do. Hence the -4.
Yep, that's really what we have been trying to get across all along.
edit: The way that really makes the most sense to me is cross-checking.
No, if someone chose to crosscheck an adjacent opponent, they would not be using the object in their hand as a spear. They would instead be using the object in their hand as a big stick, improvised to mimic a quarterstaff. d6 bludgeoning no special abilities. Also, they would be unable to use weapon enhancements or any feats they have dedicated to the longspear.
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but no, really... where was that quote from JJ for 16 pages?