How do you handle obscene powergaming?


Advice

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Considering the Traits are supposed to be there to encourage RPing and not supposed to be mini-feats the fact that the player is just trying to juice something is reason enough to say nein das noob.


Except that flavor is mutable. If you're going to tell me that I have to use a trait's flavor I'm more likely to just say screw you and not take traits at all, rather than be forced to use flavor someone else wrote.

Of course taking that hardline "Roleplay what the book says you munchkin!" stance in one area of the game implies you're likely to do the same thing elsewhere, which is just going to drive me away from your table.


MattR1986 wrote:
Considering the Traits are supposed to be there to encourage RPing and not supposed to be mini-feats

"Character traits are abilities that are not tied to your character’s race or class. They can enhance your character’s skills, racial abilities, class abilities, or other statistics, enabling you to further customize him. At its core, a character trait is approximately equal in power to half a feat, so two character traits are roughly equivalent to a bonus feat. "


Quote:
it's a way to quantify (and encourage) building a character background that fits into your campaign world. Think of character traits as “story seeds” for your background; after you pick your two traits, you'll have a point of inspiration from which to build your character's personality and history. Alternatively, if you've already got a background in your head or written down for your character, you can view picking his traits as a way to quantify that background, just as picking race and class and ability scores quantifies his other strengths and weaknesses.

how hilarious that you don't include what comes right after your quote in order to try to make your point.


MattR1986 wrote:
I'm not going to go through the book but I know its been said either in the book or by devs that they are intended to encourage RP and not intended to be like feats regardless of the fact that they are stating that they are mechanically like feats. Feel free to exclude that in your quotes though.

They are ALSO supposed to encourage RP and act as "story seeds" yes, but they are also quite clearly and explicitly meant to be, as you said, "mini-Feats" and to be chosen for a mechanical benefit as well.

You said they were not supposed to be that. You were wrong.


reread my above post. Good try though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MattR1986 wrote:
reread my above post.

I did. You're still wrong about if they are mini-feats or not, as they are clearly called out as such.


Try reading it one more time then cuz you still aren't getting it. The fact that mechanically they are a half feat doesn't mean they are there to be level-ups like feats.


Of course they aren't level ups, they're with you at level 1.

Doesn't mean you should make straightjackets out of their default flavor.


I, as a DM, could care less if someone uses them just for the mechanics. I already encourage/reward backstories beside that so it doesn't matter to me especially since I make encounters challenging enough that they'll want the added benefits.

That being said, a DM could disallow it when the players aren't using traits "properly" and are just trying to use them for the mechanics or squeezing them into the backstory in silly ways to get the perk.

Scarab Sages

Rays and swarms. Hit him with rays and swarms.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MattR1986 wrote:
That being said, a DM could disallow it when the players aren't using traits "properly" and are just trying to use them for the mechanics or squeezing them into the backstory in silly ways to get the perk.

A GM can disallow anything he wants, it doesn't change what the banned item is.


What is a feat intended for? Do you see any background stuff listed in the feats about how you spent a lot of your free time cutting down trees so here ya go Power Attack? No, you don't. They can be for background/RP whatever but mostly intended to improve your character mechanically.

Just because a trait mechanically is a half-feat doesn't mean its intended to be used the same way as "here ya go to improve your numbers: traits". I said in the first post they are not supposed to be mini-feats, despite the fact that they are number-wise, sure half of getting Alertness or Deception or whatever else. Re-read the quote for what it says they are for.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MattR1986 wrote:
What is a feat intended for? Do you see any background stuff listed in the feats about how you spent a lot of your free time cutting down trees so here ya go Power Attack? No, you don't.

I sure do. Using the 'hit it with a stick' feat as your example is not arguing in good faith.

MattR1986 wrote:
Re-read the quote for what it says they are for.

I have. It's not a zero-sum situation.


You really seem like you like to argue for the sake of arguing, so to get back to a real discussion, OP I don't know why you did 20 pt buy for an AP if you didn't want to adjust much. It's hindsight but you've kind of put yourself more into a corner in that regard. Have you tried upping the Monsters' HP to not average but full or adding an extra guy? Or does he plow through that too? Its ok for one guy to be killing more people than others, so long as they feel like they are contributing. If you try this and it seems like he doesn't even need the party, then, again, have him hold his punches. If that doesn't work ,have him go to Summoner. If that doesn't work, take the step and adjust everyone down to 15 pt buy.


MattR1986 wrote:
You really seem like you like to argue for the sake of arguing, so to get back to a real discussion, OP I don't know why you did 20 pt buy for an AP if you didn't want to adjust much. It's hindsight but you've kind of put yourself more into a corner in that regard. Have you tried upping the Monsters' HP to not average but full or adding an extra guy? Or does he plow through that too? Its ok for one guy to be killing more people than others, so long as they feel like they are contributing. If you try this and it seems like he doesn't even need the party, then, again, have him hold his punches. If that doesn't work ,have him go to Summoner. If that doesn't work, take the step and adjust everyone down to 15 pt buy.

The 5 point difference in character buy will have already become virtually unnoticeable by lvl 9.

The problem here is the dude has his character killed off by a murder stick (which is apparently not vorpal but does what vorpal does) at lvl 9. So the dude built a better character so he wouldn't die and the DM doesn't care enough to tweak his encounters but does care enough to come here and complain.

Dark Archive

To offer some actual advice in regards to the OP I'd suggest a super quick fix is to use the 'quick play' Advanced Template on some/all of the enemies they face. +2 to rolls and +2 hp/HD won't annihilate your other players but it will bring far more creatures within a reasonable hit chance of the Summoner and give them all a little longer on the battlefield. If need be and this isn't making a difference add the template again (i.e.; a simple +4 to all rolls, +4 hp/HD) and repeat until you find a power level that challenges the players and also lets you enjoy combats.

More importantly however, talk to your players. Are the rest feeling overshadowed by the Summoner? Do they actually enjoy his ability to solo fights? Etc. Find out exactly what game *they* want to play and then find a balance between that and the game you want to play, a level of challenge that all are happy with, perhaps this means the Summoner respends a few points and drops his AC to 30 ish, or you buff the monsters, but whatever the end result it will be better if you discuss it and come to an amicable agreement with your players than simply upping the power of enemies they face.


The player needs to understand also that hey..PCs die. Underestimating enemies and not moving back was a tactical mistake that got him killed. It happens. Freaking out to build a "bomb shelter" PC isn't the answer either. What his intent was in making the character I can't say.

If said PC freaks about you adjusting him to lower his precious AC and you want to compromise there are other solutions:

Use house rules for how HP works so its harder to kill them when hit. If they take a massive hit they still have a chance to retreat. Give them the hero points. These can be a safety net to not insta-die.


CNB wrote:

Spoilers ahead for the Shattered Star Adventure Path.

People keep overlooking the fact that I'm running an Adventure Path, and I don't want to have to rewrite every single encounter to deal with this character.

The Simple templates (particularly the Advanced Simple Template Quick Rules version) exist for the sole purpose of making this a staggeringly simple task rather than the Herculean rewrite you envision.


BigDTBone wrote:
MattR1986 wrote:
You really seem like you like to argue for the sake of arguing, so to get back to a real discussion, OP I don't know why you did 20 pt buy for an AP if you didn't want to adjust much. It's hindsight but you've kind of put yourself more into a corner in that regard. Have you tried upping the Monsters' HP to not average but full or adding an extra guy? Or does he plow through that too? Its ok for one guy to be killing more people than others, so long as they feel like they are contributing. If you try this and it seems like he doesn't even need the party, then, again, have him hold his punches. If that doesn't work ,have him go to Summoner. If that doesn't work, take the step and adjust everyone down to 15 pt buy.

The 5 point difference in character buy will have already become virtually unnoticeable by lvl 9.

The problem here is the dude has his character killed off by a murder stick (which is apparently not vorpal but does what vorpal does) at lvl 9. So the dude built a better character so he wouldn't die and the DM doesn't care enough to tweak his encounters but does care enough to come here and complain.

It doesn't do what vorpal does. If I recall correctly, it only does that special decapitate ability on a KO. Which is what the OP said.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

- How do I handle obscene powergaming?

With laughter, all the way to the "Core-only, thanks" Bank.


I guess the question I'd have is why are you looking to "beat" the players? I challenge players, but in the end, I'm rooting for them. If you kill them all off, you have no game, and can't tell the story you wish to tell. Use tactics against the Eidolon, limit the summoner and move on, but still let him have his moment to shine. If you punish him by always targeting him, you'll make the situation worse.


Sledge Hammer wrote:

It's no coincidence that synth summoners are banned in PFS. totally broken.

.


Majuba wrote:

- How do I handle obscene powergaming?

With laughter, all the way to the "Core-only, thanks" Bank.

Owned by "Casters inc." no doubt.

Sczarni

CNB wrote:

I'm running the Shattered Star Adventure Path, and one of the players has just come back do the game (after having his archer die) with a Synthesis Summoner.

We're at level 10. He's got 35 AC, so nothing hits him. He's got 5 attacks doing about 90 HP of damage a round. He's got all good saves, so it's iffy to land a spell on him.

I'm reading through the rest of this book in the Adventure Path, and there's basically nothing in the book that has any serious chance of affecting him.

Are my only options to tell him to roll a different character, rewrite the entire Adventure Path specifically around his character, or cancel the game?

I trusted that Paizo playtested and balanced their rules; I'm really disappointed at how badly designed most of this stuff is.

This explains why I see so many "Summoner Class is Banned" in d&d games...


Majuba wrote:

- How do I handle obscene powergaming?

With laughter, all the way to the "Core-only, thanks" Bank.

Right because there is perfect balance within the core rules...

Keeping core only does make things less complicated, it doesnt make them more balance. In fact I'd say overall the game is more balanced as you include more material so long as you take the game as a whole and not as a bunch of single point comparisons. Nothing introduced is more powerful then a tricked out druid or wizard in the grand scheme of things, but lots of weaker concepts have gotten pushes upward. So the peak of power remains the same, but the lower ranks get brought up a bit. That to me is balanced better then the original.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
CNB wrote:

I'm running the Shattered Star Adventure Path, and one of the players has just come back do the game (after having his archer die) with a Synthesis Summoner.

We're at level 10. He's got 35 AC, so nothing hits him. He's got 5 attacks doing about 90 HP of damage a round. He's got all good saves, so it's iffy to land a spell on him.

I'm reading through the rest of this book in the Adventure Path, and there's basically nothing in the book that has any serious chance of affecting him.

Are my only options to tell him to roll a different character, rewrite the entire Adventure Path specifically around his character, or cancel the game?

I trusted that Paizo playtested and balanced their rules; I'm really disappointed at how badly designed most of this stuff is.

This explains why I see so many "Summoner Class is Banned" in d&d games...

Mostly the summoner is banned because its an extremly complicated class that is painfully easy to optimize. Because you can pick and choose each and every ability the eidolon gets, even if all your 'stuff' adds up to the same amount of 'stuff' as other classes (the druid for instance) those other classes dont always get to pick the 'stuff' that helps them do their thing the most. Some animal companions get scent. Druids get wild empathy, fighters get bravery etc. These are someone useful, but they dont help you kick ass. A summoner can if he chooses (and you generally do) choose nothing but abilities that help him beat up the enemy.

The problem isnt that paizo misjudged the summoner, its that they misjudged us. They have this rediculous idea that people will CHOOSE to do whats in the best interest of the game both in general and at their tables. So if they play a summoner, they will have a specific concept in mind and go with it, taking a variety of spells, evolutions and other abilities. If you do that it plays out fine. If you just try to make a powerhouse though, it is going to outshine all but the most optimized characters of other classes because of how easy it is to pick the 'best' options for the summoner.


MattR1986 wrote:

The player needs to understand also that hey..PCs die. Underestimating enemies and not moving back was a tactical mistake that got him killed. It happens. Freaking out to build a "bomb shelter" PC isn't the answer either. What his intent was in making the character I can't say.

If said PC freaks about you adjusting him to lower his precious AC and you want to compromise there are other solutions:

Use house rules for how HP works so its harder to kill them when hit. If they take a massive hit they still have a chance to retreat. Give them the hero points. These can be a safety net to not insta-die.

Im gonna basically agree with this. It isnt a dms fault if hes running as it is and players decide to do something less tactical. Im gonna stand in front of this charging beast and do a full round attack so i can do lots of numbers, yes i will be in a bad spot where i can easily be gotten at BUT i trust the dm to play the beast not to attack me so i can keep doing big numbers...

Eh that came out a bit harsh, theres a chance he wasnt even thinking about his positioning when trying to do as many attacks off.
it looks like this coukd have been a learning experience but instead of "hey i need to remember tactics so this doesnt happen again" it became "dangit i died, im gonna build this powerful build so i dont have to think about tactics constantly to continue doing as many full round attacks". Thats what coming off to me.
my advice is talk with the player. Ban the class if its a problem, i have, but of u do talk wiyh the player and tell him why. Explain that ur running a game where death is possible but staying alive is pretty common if u remember tactics. Ur trying to challenge the group of players so its not a facerollkeyboard campaign and in trying to do so it will make it harder for everyone else to do so.


I would agree if his build was anywhere near an overcompensation.

It's something you can do, defensively, with a handful of classes. It has no monstrous damage output, nor does it have an unreasonable amount of defense.

His GM honestly needs to suck it up because if he doesn't now he's going to be woefully unprepared for any build that's actually overpowered.


You deal with Obscene Powergaming by having your party sign up for EQ2.


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Just an unhelpfull note my WotR game is level 9 mythic 3 and has 3 party members with 33+ ac and deal 90 damage on full attacks easaly they are mythic and all but i can easaly match the numbers with any front liner i could make bow ranger 2 hand fighter druid cleric pally barb the aps are not designed for optimized characters.

Now the helpfull stuff talk to the party if most of them arn't optimized ask if having superman in the party is a problem for them if not your good if it is ask if they would like some help or advice to buff them up or if superman would be willing to tone it down. So long as everyone is having fun it doesn't matter if one player is wreaking face just roll with it


Majuba wrote:

- How do I handle obscene powergaming?

With laughter, all the way to the "Core-only, thanks" Bank.

That can be a step in the right direction, but you can powergame the Core rules to an obscene level as well.

First off all, everyone powergames to some extent, so the first step is deciding as a group what level of powergaming is acceptable.

It is also important to figure out what IS power in your game. Generally it is a full caster, with a maxed out casting stat, spamming save or suck spells. However, it starts as a raging barbarian and evolves as the levels go up. At your table, other things might be very powerful, such as social skills, mobility, or allies. Figure it out before you start to ban things or change rules. Often GM's will restrict martial characters based on the first few levels of the game, only to see casters blow past them after the mid levels. This is especially true in games where the GM bumps up monster hit points. Martial characters are stuck chipping away at a big pool of hp, while casters just shut down the encounter by targeting the creatures lowest save.

In my group I limit starting stats to 17 after racial adjustments. I have also asked players to generally limit the use of action denial spells and abilities, and I use them rarely as a GM.

So talk to the players, come to a consensus on what level of optimization everyone is comfortable with and the problem should be easier to solve.

But yeah, if it is banned in PFS (or beyond the scope of PFS, like high level play, chances are it is generally agreed to be over-power, or require heavy GM moderation.


beej67 wrote:
Sledge Hammer wrote:

It's no coincidence that synth summoners are banned in PFS. totally broken.

.

it's also no coincidence that crane style was neutered in PFS. totally broken--unless GMs actually you know, take the effort to tweak encounters and work around it.

honestly, there's very little in this game that can't be "dealt with" with a bit of creativity, instead of signing it off as "OP, banned at my table, la la la i cant hear you".


AndIMustMask wrote:
beej67 wrote:
Sledge Hammer wrote:

It's no coincidence that synth summoners are banned in PFS. totally broken.

.
it's also no coincidence that crane style was neutered in PFS. totally broken--unless GMs actually you know, take the effort to tweak encounters and work around it.

Don't be silly. We all know there is NOTHING a GM can do against enemies who can deflect a single melee attack every turn. No, sir. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. AT ALL. NOPE. NADA. ZERO.

Deflecting one melee attack a turn is the exact same thing as complete invulnerability.

That nerf was not in any way completely unnecessary, poorly thought and overdone. It's a much better idea to add yet another feat to the huge pile of crappy options than have a combat feat that is slightly better than mediocre.

/sarcasm


Wizards eat synthesist summoners: Dispel Magic and poof, no more eidolon. Crane Riposte does nothing to fend off the wizard. 35 is your AC? What is your touch against scorching ray? What is your reflex against fireball? Heh... dodge this... Magic Missile.

Liberty's Edge

Sarrah wrote:
Wizards eat synthesist summoners: Dispel Magic and poof, no more eidolon.

This doesn't work. You need Dismissal.

And even then, Summoners are Spontaneous Casters and can burn all their spell slots re-summoning it, or, if smart, hold their action to counterspell you with Dispel Magic if you try it.

Wizards are still better...but they prove it by taking out the Summoner themselves, not the pet.

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
CNB wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
I'm just sitting here wondering why 35 AC at level 10 is "obscene".

In the Adventure Path I'm running, most of the creatures (making up encounters from CR 8-12) have to-hits of +12 to +18. One has a +19. The main villain at the end of the path has a +20, and is CR 14.

Remember, at 10th level, CR 10 encounters are supposed to be easy peasy. CR 8 is supposed to be nothing more than a speedbump.

Even the average CR 10 has a chance of hitting him (attack bonuses at +18 or so aren't uncommon) and since you say he does 90 DPR, he should be taking about 2 rounds to kill any CR 10 guy, which is the expected enocunter length for an encounter like that.

However, I think the AP may be the problem, not the character. He's certainly not an "obscene powergamer" as you seem to think.

That CR 14 with a +20 to-hit is quite a weak foe unless he's meant to be primarily a spellcaster. Pulling 5 random monsters from the CR 14 list, I didn't find a single one with an attack bonus of less than 23, and all had at least 3 attacks (the natural attack monsters having the 23 or higher on ALL attacks).

That 23 still gives them a slightly hard time hitting (they need a 12 or higher to hit), but remember that's the LOWEST I found (one was 24, one was 26/25, one went up to 27 but dropped with iteratives, etc), and they all have enough HP to tank 90 DPR for a few rounds easy.

With party support they drop quicker, but that's because single monsters suck.

You may need to tweak the AP some. They're balanced for parties of 4, made up of Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard, not anything even vaguely outlandish. You need to adapt to your party.

Sounds like you characters are two levels higher than they should be. For PFS scenarios at that level, normal encounters are at party level+2, boss fights are +3, and many players complain how easy pfs is.

Your players are overlevel so you have two options, level the mod to meet them, or delevel them to meet the mod.

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