Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Basically, you are expected to track encumbrance on your gear. Unless the scenario says otherwise, you do not need to track encumbrance on loot. (I believe there is at least one scenario that says something like "the PC will need X str or some other means of getting this back home if they want to keep it."
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Remeber that there are creatures that can do Strength damage/penalties that can affect, for example, a Dexterity-based character. Medium load drops their Max Dex cap, as well as movement. I had a halfling that got shot by a max-roll Ray of Enfeeblement with full plate. That simply immobilized me for that whole combat.
It is something that people look over and forget, much like rolling a 1 for a Reflex Save from a damaging spell, which actually damages your gear
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Remeber that there are creatures that can do Strength damage/penalties that can affect, for example, a Dexterity-based character. Medium load drops their Max Dex cap, as well as movement. I had a halfling that got shot by a max-roll Ray of Enfeeblement with full plate. That simply immobilized me for that whole combat.
It is something that people look over and forget, much like rolling a 1 for a Reflex Save from a damaging spell, which actually damages your gear
I thought only drain actually lowered the stat -
I believe that strength damage adds penalties to hit, damage, and strength skill checks - it does not mention encumberance.
It depends on the GM on whether a strength penalty works like strength drain or strength damage unless it says specifically in the spell.
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This was changed in October's FAQ.
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Er, I'm not sure that's comparable, considering this:
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores.
This damage does not actually reduce an ability
Though it's true that temporary bonuses and ability damage both use the "for every 2 points, do blah" language, the fact that one explicitly says it does change your score and the other explicitly says it does not change your score seems pretty hard on the "treat them identically" idea.
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Boy, you know, every way you can read that FAQ it mentions "bonus", and never once does it say or imply penalties should be treated the same.
And that would, IMO, suggest they are treated separately, as Jiggy pointed out.
(though I swear I read a scenario recently where the tactics mentioned starting off with Strength-damaging spells followed by Black Tentacles to capitalize on their lower Strength)
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Er, I'm not sure that's comparable, considering this:
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores.This damage does not actually reduce an abilityThough it's true that temporary bonuses and ability damage both use the "for every 2 points, do blah" language, the fact that one explicitly says it does change your score and the other explicitly says it does not change your score seems pretty hard on the "treat them identically" idea.
I don't think they're intending those rules to be that pedantic.
You're weaker. Carrying around the garden statuary for the prestige point is now a bad idea.
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Boy, you know, every way you can read that FAQ it mentions "bonus", and never once does it say or imply penalties should be treated the same.
And that would, IMO, suggest they are treated separately, as Jiggy pointed out.
(though I swear I read a scenario recently where the tactics mentioned starting off with Strength-damaging spells followed by Black Tentacles to capitalize on their lower Strength)
Strength damage most certainly hinders attack and damage rolls, and CMB and CMD should follow.
Edit: PRD link
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It would certainly make more sense if temporary bonuses and penalties both worked the same way, which is what I've been saying since October, but if that is what's intended, why did the FAQ not just mention "modifiers", and call out exclusively "bonuses"?
Edit after DH's Edit: so, we should treat temporary modifiers the same, in every instance? Using the same logic proposed by the FAQ?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This has moved into a rules discussion, more general that PFS.
But yes, in Pathfinder Society play, any treasure you find sort of goes into a holding area. If you beat up 8 blackguards, you don't have to lug around 8 suits of masterwork studded leather armor for the rest of the adventure.
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I sort of assume that my character does walk into every dungeon with his total GP wealth on him; therefore, that should not be an encumbrance. I suppose it's possible different GM's may think of this in various ways. But realistically, will you always be carrying that 10000 GP with you...NO! You'll make your necessary purchases in town and find a way to secure your wealth before setting out on a journey (I guess assuming it's not for a very long time).
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Hey, I have one of those, Rusty! =P
In my mind, no character is going around with hundred of platinum and gold coins in their purse. Rather, I see them more as carrying an equal value in gems and other light valuables which they can trade for gold to make purchases. As these valuables resell at face value, there's really no complications that can arise.
I only think this because, while there are banks, they're not really networked. You can't whip out your Vista or MonsterCard or Absalom Express and withdraw from a Sczarni trader found on just about every street corner.
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Hey, I have one of those, Rusty! =P
In my mind, no character is going around with hundred of platinum and gold coins in their purse. Rather, I see them more as carrying an equal value in gems and other light valuables which they can trade for gold to make purchases. As these valuables resell at face value, there's really no complications that can arise.
I only think this because, while there are banks, they're not really networked. You can't whip out your Vista or MonsterCard or Absalom Express and withdraw from a Sczarni trader found on just about every street corner.
That's basically what I was going to say. You could potentially have a writ from the Bank of Abadar as well (one would assume they had a way to communicate to other branches).
Easily to carry high value items. Remember trade goods, artwork, and jewelry/gems can be sold back for 100%
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I assumed that my high value items were being purchased from my local pathfinder lodge, since it requires a fame rank to do so. With the ability to magic, record keeping between the lodges shouldn't be that difficult.
It might explain why they never have teleports for us on missions, they just sent the society accountant on his rounds to the other lodges...
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That's what "dropped to ground" in Hero Lab is for!
Herolab also has an option to not count coin weight for purposes of encumbrance - it's the first screen with all the checkboxes, where you click Pathfinder Society Rules. If you don't do this, you'll find all your Dex based skills adversely affected by the weight of your coins (encumbrance penalties).
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This damage does not actually reduce an abilityPresumably, that line means something. What do you suppose it means?
I used to think that, but now I'm not so sure.
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This damage does not actually reduce an abilityPresumably, that line means something. What do you suppose it means?
Personally, I would assume that it is simply making the distinction between damage and drain. Much like HP, they go up and down all the time, but, it's denoting that you don't actually have HP taken away.
The Core Rulebook also says (in the very same sentence) that "it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."The list of things affected by Strength is certainly not exhaustive, as ability-checks aren't listed. If that were the case that would mean a Fighter making a Strength-check to batter down a door doesn't have his roll affected by Ability Drain ... and that would just be silly.
If the designers intended for Carrying Capacity to not be affected by ability drain, I like to think that they're a competent enough bunch of fellas that they would've spelled it out. Just because a place can be found where it doesn't specifically enumerate it, doesn't mean that it changes the rules that govern Carrying Capacity.
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The Core Rulebook also says (in the very same sentence) that "it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
The list of things affected by Strength is certainly not exhaustive, as ability-checks aren't listed.
Unfortunately the written rule is not clear. There is nothing to indicate that the list isn't exhaustive, note an "etc" or an "and so on" or anything.
If that were the case that would mean a Fighter making a Strength-check to batter down a door doesn't have his roll affected by Ability Drain ... and that would just be silly.
Yep, but all that does is indicate that maybe the RAW isn't RAI, unfortunately it doesn't make it clear what the RAI should be.
If the designers intended for Carrying Capacity to not be affected by ability drain, I like to think that they're a competent enough bunch of fellas that they would've spelled it out. Just because a place can be found where it doesn't specifically enumerate it, doesn't mean that it changes the rules that govern Carrying Capacity.
But if what you say is true, then how do you determine a reduction in Carrying Capacity following Strength Damage?
Does it only change for every 2 points of Strength damage like the penalties mentioned? E.g. Does a Strength 14 character suffering 1 point of Strength damage take no penalties to Strength checks and carrying capacity remains at 58 / 116 / 175 lbs?
Or does carrying capacity get recalculated for every single point of Strength Damage (i.e. calculated as if the Strength score was actually reduced)? E.g. Does a Strength 14 character suffering 1 point of Strength damage have their carrying capacity reduced to 50 / 100 / 150 lbs? If so, how come the same reasoning isn't used to determine the new Strength Modifier?
I believe the Ability Score Bonus, Penalty and Damage rules were written to be quickly calculated and were not actually designed to affect everything that a permanent Ability Score increase or drain would.
The FAQ seems to back that up by calling those rules and the exhaustive list of stats as "quick rules" but also goes on to state that implicitly there are "rebuild rules". For me though, it is in no way clear that these "rebuild rules" even exist or even implied by the RAW! Also that FAQ only talks about Ability Score Bonuses - not penalties or damage, so I am still unsure whether "rebuild rules" are implied there as well.
Basically, if I were GMing a PFS game and a Strength 14 character suffered 1 point of Strength Damage and I told the player that his Strength modifier has reduced from +2 to +1 because I am choosing to use the "rebuild rules" and not the "quick rules" - would you understand if that player complained that wasn't RAW?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Personally, I would assume that it is simply making the distinction between damage and drain. Much like HP, they go up and down all the time, but, it's denoting that you don't actually have HP taken away.This damage does not actually reduce an abilityPresumably, that line means something. What do you suppose it means?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like what you're saying is that:
1) The difference between drain actually lowering your stat and damage not actually lowering it but still being treated as lowering it for all purposes, and2) That when the designers wanted to differentiate between an effect that lowers your stat and an effect that has all the exact same results as lowering your stat but without writing anything on your sheet, the way they chose to communicate that so-called difference was to say "this doesn't lower your stat, but for every 2 points you take a -1 penalty".
Those both seem to fall very short of reasonable, so maybe I'm not following what you're actually saying. Could explain a bit more precisely what practical difference between ability damage and drain you think was supposed to be communicated by those lines?
The Core Rulebook also says (in the very same sentence) that "it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
The next sentence then defines what that penalty is: specifically, for every 2 points of damage, apply a -1 penalty.
The list of things affected by Strength is certainly not exhaustive, as ability-checks aren't listed. If that were the case that would mean a Fighter making a Strength-check to batter down a door doesn't have his roll affected by Ability Drain ... and that would just be silly.
If the designers intended for Carrying Capacity to not be affected by ability drain, I like to think that they're a competent enough bunch of fellas that they would've spelled it out. Just because a place can be found where it doesn't specifically enumerate it, doesn't mean that it changes the rules that govern Carrying Capacity.
When did we start talking about ability drain? No one's claiming that ability drain doesn't lower the score; it explicitly does, just like ability damage explicitly doesn't.
Presumably, the opposite nature of the two effects has a real meaning. I'm currently failing to grasp what you think that real meaning is.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Because otherwise, a Str 5 Halfling wearing armor wouldn't need a Handy Haversack in order to lug around his 10 MWK Tools. Which would be... odd.
Speaking as someone who has been playing a 5 Strength Gnome Alchemist, it takes more than just a Handy Haversack to compensate if you are paying attention to your encumbrance.
My fist purchase was a Guard Dog just to carry my Formula books & melee weapons and even then, I was restricted to studded leather armor. My first magical purchase wasn't a Handy Haversack because even the 5 pounds it weighed was too much. First I had to get Muleback Cords just so I could carry a Handy Haversack. Later, I got a +2 ST & DX Belt so I traded out the Muleback cords for a Cloak of Resistance. The character is now about to hit 14th level and recently bought a +4 ST & DX belt so he could wear Celestial Armor and a Jingasa of the Fortune Soldier (dang thing weighs a 1-1/2 pounds).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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That's what "dropped to ground" in Hero Lab is for!Herolab also has an option to not count coin weight for purposes of encumbrance - it's the first screen with all the checkboxes, where you click Pathfinder Society Rules. If you don't do this, you'll find all your Dex based skills adversely affected by the weight of your coins (encumbrance penalties).
Good to know. I never noticed that option before.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like what you're saying is that:
1) The difference between drain actually lowering your stat and damage not actually lowering it but still being treated as lowering it for all purposes, and
2) That when the designers wanted to differentiate between an effect that lowers your stat and an effect that has all the exact same results as lowering your stat but without writing anything on your sheet, the way they chose to communicate that so-called difference was to say "this doesn't lower your stat, but for every 2 points you take a -1 penalty".
Those both seem to fall very short of reasonable, so maybe I'm not following what you're actually saying. Could explain a bit more precisely what practical difference between ability damage and drain you think was supposed to be communicated by those lines?
Yep, you're right. I think you've missed where I'm going with that. That's not what I'm saying, at all. What I'm saying is that it's denoting that one is permanent, and the other isn't. One lowers the score, and the other doesn't.
I think most of us know that there's a 2-to-1 penalty, because as one's Strength improves the bonus goes up on a 2-to1 basis. But, it's specifically called out by the designers, because it may not be clear to some people.When did we start talking about ability drain? No one's claiming that ability drain doesn't lower the score; it explicitly does, just like ability damage explicitly doesn't.
Yes, yes. My mistake, sorry ... It's a typo. I was referring to damage there, not drain.
The next sentence then defines what that penalty is: specifically, for every 2 points of damage, apply a -1 penalty.Presumably, the opposite nature of the two effects has a real meaning. I'm currently failing to grasp what you think that real meaning is.
If by "opposite nature" you mean that one is permanent, and one is not, it means that you erase one value from your character sheet, and the other means that you just note it on the side.
If someone takes Strength damage, all statistics based on Strength are affected. There's no roll for Carrying Capacity, you just look at the chart, and note the lower value on the side while your score is damaged. If it were permanent, you'd erase the value from your sheet and write in the new one.We know the design rule. Specific rule supersedes a general rule every time. Until there's a specific rule that says Carrying Capacity isn't recalculated for Strength Damage, we can not assume that it is.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If the only difference between damage and drain was that damage should be noted separately in case it's removed, then why would they go to the trouble to give each its own definition instead of just copying the "these should be noted separately in case they are removed" language that they just used a few inches up in the ability bonuses rules?
I'm of the belief that when intelligent people write two sets of rules differently, they mean for the two things to be different. So when one thing says "This does not reduce the ability; apply these penalties" and the other says "This does reduce the ability; recalculate everything", I think the reasonable interpretation is that the first applies penalties while the second requires full recalculation.
That is, I generally believe the rules mean what they say, and that if they meant the same thing they'd say the same thing, and if they say different things then they mean different things.
EDIT: You know, after saying all that, and re-reading the relevant rules and the bonuses FAQ again, I almost wonder if we're looking at the possibility of altered intent.
That is, maybe originally there was supposed to be a substantial difference between damage and drain (as well as temporary/permanent bonuses) but the Design Team's intent has begun to change, and we're seeing the beginning of that change in the bonuses FAQ?
We already know that can happen; the SLA FAQ from June shows an example of rules being written with one intent in mind, then the current Design Team deciding to set a different paradigm of how to interpret the existing text. Maybe we're seeing a similar shift on the topic of ability bonuses, damage and drain?
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At the risk of repeating myself, PRD link
STR damage:
Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
STR drain:
Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
Ability damage for STR has a specific list of what it affects. It does not actually lower the ability score. Ability drain affects all skills and statistics related to that ability. It actually does lower the ability score, albeit temporarily. I would suggest not erasing the score on your sheet!
It has been posited by others that the things not affected by ability damage are so that things don't have to be recalculated all the time, with ability damage being somewhat common. I don't know myself. I just look to what the rules say.
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Looking to the FAQ on ability scores bonuses, I think Jiggy is very right on what might be happening. The FAQ talks about limitations on space, but in the ability damage section they take up more space to provice the limited list of what changes. Also, they spend space differentiating between ability damage and ability drain. So, this may be a change in intent.
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If someone takes Strength damage, all statistics based on Strength are affected. There's no roll for Carrying Capacity, you just look at the chart, and note the lower value on the side while your score is damaged. If it were permanent, you'd erase the value from your sheet and write in the new one.
We know the design rule. Specific rule supersedes a general rule every time. Until there's a specific rule that says Carrying Capacity isn't recalculated for Strength Damage, we can not assume that it is.
The rules give a list on what is affected with STR damage. It does not include Carrying Capacity. Under ability drain it says: "Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability." The two are very much not the same in the rules.
Edit: grammar.