This came up in a thread over on BGG. It is mixed in with a discussion about what you can and can't do when resetting your hand.
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14927020#14927020
The question is, basically, can you explore on your turn but outside of the "Explore" part of your turn?
Here are the situations that were discussed:
1. If there are no cards left in the general store and you attempt and succeed at closing it during the "Attempt to close a location" part of your turn, can you play a card to explore the cards that are placed there after closing it?
2. Can you play a car to explore before the "Explore" part of the turn, like before moving? If yes, does doing so sacrifice your free explore during the explore part of turn?
The general opinions have been the following:
1. All exploring must happen during the explore step of the turn. (Based on the understanding that this sentence: "Many effects allow you to explore again on your turn; if, during a single exploration, multiple effects each give you an additional exploration, it counts as a total of 1 more exploration, not a series of additional explorations" implies all these effects must be used during this part of the turn.)
2. All exploring must happen during the explore step of the turn or later. (Based on the the sentence: "You may explore your location once each turn without playing a card that allows you to explore; this must be your first exploration for the turn" but the perceived lack of a prohibition to explore later.)
3. You can explore whenever, but if you explore before the Explore part of your turn you sacrifice your free exploration.
By relation, it was pointed out that most of us seem to be playing the Merchant ally well after the "Give a card" part of the turn, even though it relates to giving a card. (Though the give a card part of the turn mentions no effects that allow you to give additional cards.)
If someone with authority could weigh in and help clarify what is and isn't allowed that would be great. Thanks so much.
So I finally found this comment by Mike. That makes it clear that all exploring has to be done during the Explore part of your turn.
I'm assuming that when you close a location due to defeating a henchman you haven't ever left the Explore part of the turn and can therefore still explore closed locations like the General Store. But that is just my assumption, I don't see anywhere that is made explicit.
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So, if I understand correctly (because this just happened to me playing solo):
- I explore General Store, there are many cards left at that location
- I encounter and defeat the henchman
- I attempt to close the location and am successful
- I fulfill the "When Permanently Closed" conditions (add 1d6 random items to this location without looking at them, then automatically acquire the top card). I rolled a 2, so that's 2 items, and I get the top one and now there's 1 left, face down at the now-closed General Store
- Because my initial encounter was a henchman, not an armor/item/weapon, I can explore again, so I am free to turn over the last card (the 2nd item) and try to acquire it.
Is that correct? That's what I did. Of course, with my luck, both cards were Bracers of Protection. :/
EDIT: I misread your question. To answer your question, I stop apply the "At This Location" rule once I flip the card over. Since I haven't revealed the card (as required) until after I flip it, the power isn't in effect for me to activate it and explore again.
Pre-EDIT REsponse (which was about whether you could explore at the general store on the same turn you close it, which wasn't quite your question):
That is how I'm playing it. When you attempt to close by defeating the henchman, you haven't left the "Explore" part of your turn. Just the same as if you had failed to close after defeating the henchman and would be allowed to explore again, if you succeed at closing you can explore again. (You could even play Giant Badger or Boots of Teleportation and move then explore at another location.) But if you attempt to close because there are no cards left in your location, then you are near the end of your turn and past the "Explore" part of your turn. So you couldn't explore anymore, anywhere.
I don't think this was ever given an official answer, but that is how I've continued to read it and play it.
We had this same situation happen last night (in Local Heroes). It seems that the OP is correct in the approach (to me). I think its a matter of how the effects get nested. Let me try a slight variation on how the steps were listed.
1 I explore General Store, there are many cards left at that location
2 I encounter a Henchman
-2a I defeat the henchman
-2b I attempt to close the location and am successful
-2c I fulfill the "When Permanently Closed" conditions (add 1d6 random items to this location without looking at them, then automatically acquire the top card). I rolled a 2, so that's 2 items, and I get the top one and now there's 1 left, face down at the now-closed General Store
3 Because my initial encounter was a henchman, not an armor/item/weapon, I can explore again, so I am free to turn over the last card (the 2nd item) and try to acquire it.
Regarding weird General Store interactions, I also had a situation prior to closing the general store where a monster came up that I could not hope to beat. I used cape of escape to evade and move. Since the encounter was not an item/armor/weapon, I explored again at the new location. I think this was accurate, but it would be nice to hear the opinion of others, and/or an official opinion.
I don't think that is quite right. The General Store was updated to say this:
At This Location If, during your exploration, you encounter anything other than an armor, an item, or a weapon, after the exploration you may reveal a card to explore again.
That text does not appear on the "closed" side of the General Store. You activate that power when you reveal the card after the exploration, not as part of the exploration.
So, if your first example with the Henchman being defeated:
1. During your exploration you encounter a henchman.
1a. You defeat the henchman.
1b. You attempt the closing requirement and succeed.
1c. You banish the location deck, flip the location card over and add 2 items to the location.
1d. The exploration ends.
2. After the exploration, you want to reveal a card to explore again, only that power is no longer active at the General Store at this point. So you can't.
In the case at the Cape of Escape, after you move to the new location, you are no longer "At This Location" for the General Store to reveal a card and activate its power after the exploration.
Okay, I want to complicate this a little more. I am playing Ranzak, and I close The General Store, shuffle in my 1d6 random items, and automatically acquire the top one, and then roll a die to explore again. I believe that I am playing this correctly, yes?
I'd agree. The General Store says "acquire" just like Ranzak's power. You are actually asking a version of the question in this thread. In that case, Junk Beach uses "draw", but General Store uses "acquire".
I'd agree. The General Store says "acquire" just like Ranzak's power. You are actually asking a version of the question in this thread. In that case, Junk Beach uses "draw", but General Store uses "acquire".
This is a little strange that the two locations have essentially the same When Closing, but I wonder if they should actually be the same. I have always played them both as acquire. It didn't matter before, but with Ranzak, I think we might need a clarification. Mike or Vic, please help!
Chief Technical Officer
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I'm confused by the question.
Junk Beach's "At This Location" text tells you to draw an item from the box.
General Store and Junk Beach's "When Permanently Closed" text both tell you to automatically acquire the top item you add to the location.
Draw means draw* and acquire means acquire.
*Nowadays, we prefer to use the word "add" when pulling cards from the box to your hand, but "draw" works fine. We certainly *don't* mean "acquire an item from the box."
Oh, well I do not have my cards in front of me to confirm the wording. I was specifically talking about the When Closing text. Are they the same? I believe that they are both something to the effect of roll 1d6 and place that many items face down and acquire the top one, but it sounded like Hawk was talking about the same thing as I was, but now that I have read the thread, I think I have my answer.
Are the When Closing texts on these the same? If so, then I have no problem. Hehe.
Also, in the same vein, when you receive plunder, that is 'added' from the box, and not acquired, correct?
Oh, well I do not have my cards in front of me to confirm the wording. I was specifically talking about the When Closing text. Are they the same? I believe that they are both something to the effect of roll 1d6 and place that many items face down and acquire the top one, but it sounded like Hawk was talking about the same thing as I was, but now that I have read the thread, I think I have my answer.
Are the When Closing texts on these the same? If so, then I have no problem. Hehe.
Also, in the same vein, when you receive plunder, that is 'added' from the box, and not acquired, correct?
Yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to compare them "When Permanently Closed" to "When Permanently Closed" I just mean that the "At This Location" power on Junk Beach uses the word "draw" and Mike pointed out that draw and acquire aren't the same thing. So that when "acquire" is used, it means more than draw or add to your hand. And therefore anytime you acquire something, whether by check or power, Ranzak's power activates. Sorry I confused things a bit.
Yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to compare them "When Permanently Closed" to "When Permanently Closed" I just mean that the "At This Location" power on Junk Beach uses the word "draw" and Mike pointed out that draw and acquire aren't the same thing. So that when "acquire" is used, it means more than draw or add to your hand. And therefore anytime you acquire something, whether by check or power, Ranzak's power activates. Sorry I confused things a bit.Oh, well I do not have my cards in front of me to confirm the wording. I was specifically talking about the When Closing text. Are they the same? I believe that they are both something to the effect of roll 1d6 and place that many items face down and acquire the top one, but it sounded like Hawk was talking about the same thing as I was, but now that I have read the thread, I think I have my answer.
Are the When Closing texts on these the same? If so, then I have no problem. Hehe.
Also, in the same vein, when you receive plunder, that is 'added' from the box, and not acquired, correct?
Confusion on both of our parts I think. Oh well. Also, I know that I was confusing, because I was mentioning the When Closing, when I meant to reference the When Permanently Closed. I think that it all is sorted out now, though. I am wondering if anything will change with Ranzak being introduced. He definitely makes the game a lot more interesting, you have to give him that.
Ok, restarting this thread following Hawk's advice, pointing on an issue raised with the preview of Droogami.
To make it short, certain cards allow you to do 2 things which normaly happen in specific different steps (e. g. move + explore).
Question is : WHEN can you play such a card. These are options :
- 1) Before the movement step ONLY. Meaning you could for example play Droogami, move, explore ONCE, then move again as part of playing your normal move step, then explore again in a new location with your free exploration + potential additional ones as part of exploration step.
- 2) During the exploration step ONLY. Meaning you could for example move as part of your normal move step, then explore with your free exploration + potential additional ones as part of exploration step, then play Droogami and move, then explore again in a new location as part of playing Droogami + potential additional explorations in the new location stillas part of exploration step.
- 3) At the end of the exploration step ONLY. Meaning you get only ONE exploration in the new location. Don't see where that restriction would come from but just making sure I list all cases.
- 4) After the Closing location step ONLY. From what Orbis and others pointed at, seems forbidden to play at that time... But still for the sake of having all cases.
- 5) In some of the above (list to be given and explained).
My feeling is that since the wording is "Discard this card on your turn" rather than "Discard your card during your exploration step", you can play it pretty much anytime playing a card like Cure is allowed.
Once the answer to that question is known, then the impact will be, for example, on whether you can close more than one location per turn. My guess will be yes if by playing Droogami I can indeed explore two locations during the same turn, because I can definitively encounter 2 henchmen in two different locations in the same turn.
This said, cards like Droogami will never let me have 2 "Closing Location" steps in the same turn so the only way to close more than one location per turn is to at least encounter one henchman.
Waiting for Mighty Mike to tell me when I can play the card...
Some discussion has ensued. We shall report when it concludes.
For what its worth I feel it should be noted that Potion of Flying is very similar to effect of Droogami.
Additionally Teleportation Chamber could let this happen as well. Defeat a henchman, close the location, when closed affect forces you to move, go to another location spend a card to explore, encounter another henchman... etc.
The location's Gozreh's Flow and Tempest Cay also can move you after closing a location... although where you end up is random.
Some discussion has ensued. We shall report when it concludes.
Major thanks in advance... As usual. And as usual I feel bad giving you additional work.
But hey, it.s all your fault: this games is just TOO good and as a real chance to move to one of the very few perfect games.
The original question of this thread (can you explore outside of your explore step) was answered today. And the answer is no.
You still get to play cards like Detect Magic outside the explore step. You just can't explore outside the explore step. I don't think Detect Magic lets you explore. And after you reset your hand, your turn is done so cards you drew can only be played on the next player's turn (when it makes sense to do so).
Detect Magic (and Detect Evil) don't use the word "explore", so you can use them outside of your explore step. Use of these cards is not exploring.
The same goes for the elven scout from RotR whose name I cannot recall (Shalelu Andosa?) who lets you examine then encounter a card.
Some cards let you move then "you may explore". Use of these cards outside of the explore step, to simply move, seems fine. I'm not certain about cards which tie moving and exploring more closely together.
The original question of this thread (can you explore outside of your explore step) was answered today. And the answer is no.This is a pretty comprehensive change to how we play. It was typical for us to, for example, draw a Detect Magic into our hand and then play it at the end of the turn. Just last weekend, I felt like I'd pulled off a good maneuver by starting my turn (not at the Torture Pit), using the Pteranodon to move to the Torture Pit and explore, then use my move to go back to my original location and explore there. That seemed a slow but effective way to get through a difficult location safely.
Upon initial consideration, I think the FAQ isn't complete enough. If a card lets you do X and explore, can you still play that card outside of your explore step for X, but not get the explore? More specifically:
* Can I reset my hand then, if I drew a Detect Magic, play Detect Magic to examine the top card of my location deck (being unable to encounter it, even if it is a blessing or has the Magic trait)?
* Can I use the Pteranodon (or similar move card) to move at the start of my turn, even though I can't then explore when I do?
I'm going to sidestep the rule questions here, but I'd like to point out something that should please you:
Detect Magic does not explore. This ruling does nothing whatsoever to it. You can still do what you were doing with Detect Magic.
Your Pterra combo from last weekend pretty much also works if you switch it up - use you normal move and explore first, then use the Pterra to move back and explore.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
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Chief Technical Officer
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Upon initial consideration, I think the FAQ isn't complete enough. If a card lets you do X and explore, can you still play that card outside of your explore step for X, but not get the explore?
That's covered by this part of the Golden Rule: "If a card instructs you to do something impossible, like draw a card from an empty deck, ignore that instruction."
(Note that the rules about playing cards prevent you from playing a card that would *only* allow you to explore, meaning it would have no useful effect.)
Detect Magic can only be played on your turn. It was never legal to play it after resetting your hand so this change had no effect on what you were doing since it was already against the rules.
Detect Magic can only be played on your turn. It was never legal to play it after resetting your hand so this change had no effect on what you were doing since it was already against the rules.
Oh yeah, resetting your hand has no anytime steps after it. Derp, I'm wrong above. >.<
Ok, so you can still fight a henchmen with your free explore, succeed at the check to close, close the location (because it happened as a result of encountering a henchmen during your explore step), play a potion of flying to move to an open location and explore. Right?
I see the henchman close/close a location step close being a point of contention - "but they do the same thing (you close a location), why does it behave differently?"
I myself would probably fix it by moving the close a location step as the last substep of the explore step (which would make the closes consistent), but that's just me and I haven't thought about all the implications of it yet.
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I see the henchman close/close a location step close being a point of contention - "but they do the same thing (you close a location), why does it behave differently?"
I myself would probably fix it by moving the close a location step as the last substep of the explore step (which would make the closes consistent), but that's just me and I haven't thought about all the implications of it yet.
Except that the Henchmen defeat/You may immediately attempt to close the location portion can occur. You can fail the attempt to close. Then on the Attempt to close the location step (if empty) can happen and you attempt again. They are distinct steps.
So you could, in theory, encounter and defeat a henchmen; close the location per henchmen's instructions; use the potion; move to another location; play a blessing/ally/etc to explore; empty the location; and close the second location.
(I don't see why you couldn't do it again if you had another potion ...)
Nevermind my last post. The FAQ states that you cannot explore outside of it.
Since you can close a location by beating a henchman and doing the close requirement while still in the explore step, then yes, it is possible to close, move, explore, close, etc. Provided you have the right cards.
Yes the ruling somehow says : you can close as many locations as you can (using cards that let you move essentially) during the explore step providing something let you attempt closing (defeating henchmen esentially). Then once the explore step is over, you get one more "free" (no card needed) attempt at closing if you happen to have finished your travels/explorations in an empty open location.
Upon initial consideration, I think the FAQ isn't complete enough. If a card lets you do X and explore, can you still play that card outside of your explore step for X, but not get the explore?That's covered by this part of the Golden Rule: "If a card instructs you to do something impossible, like draw a card from an empty deck, ignore that instruction."
(Note that the rules about playing cards prevent you from playing a card that would *only* allow you to explore, meaning it would have no useful effect.)
Vic. We looked at this card (Droogami) yesterday and honestly thought this was a terrible way to rule on this card.
Droogami's power has two directives.
1) that you move to another location
2) that upon arrival you get an explore
It's fairly obvious that the first part may be played outside the movement step because in these sorts of games, cards can generally break the rules
It is not at all obvious that the second part of the card cannot be applied outside the explore phase.
While I understand that you don't want people exploring outside of that phase, the card as written is clearly and in plain english telling the player they get to explore.
You cannot expect the vast player base to all do a rules search on this website on the off chance they misunderstand something so plainly worded.
Honestly. FAQ the card itself to say something different. That at least would be more readily available to those using the card :/
They don't need to do a rules search on the website, the recent versions of the rulebook (starting with WotR) include that FAQ in the rulebook itself. For someone who reads a recent version of the rulebook, it is obvious that you can never explore outside your explore phase (I don't necessarily expect them to remember that after reading it once, but if questioned I expect them to know how to look it up since it's right there in the Explore description).
Are you also saying we should FAQ all of the blessings too, since those plainly say you can discard them to explore again? Or the vast majority of allies?
They don't need to do a rules search on the website, the recent versions of the rulebook (starting with WotR) include that FAQ in the rulebook itself. For someone who reads a recent version of the rulebook, it is obvious that you can never explore outside your explore phase (I don't necessarily expect them to remember that after reading it once, but if questioned I expect them to know how to look it up since it's right there in the Explore description).
Are you also saying we should FAQ all of the blessings too, since those plainly say you can discard them to explore again? Or the vast majority of allies?
Good Point Skiz. However do you see my point? that including the explore action after another action that happens out of phase is ultimately confusing to the reader
I can see the combination of the two leading to various rulings, as it's never clear what constitutes an "instruction" for ignoring purposes if it's impossible. I can easily see someone say that you can only play it during your explore phase as well due to counting the entire power as an instruction for golden rule purposes. If that's what you were referring to, then yes, I see your point. If you were instead referring to the juxtaposition of possible and only-sometimes-possible actions, numerous other cards do the same thing (although usually they're separate sentences) -- that's why we have the golden rule about impossible instructions.
Which to my point is egregiously complex to the casual player
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Chief Technical Officer
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Honestly. FAQ the card itself to say something different. That at least would be more readily available to those using the card :/
The card would have to say:
Discard this card on your turn to move to another location; if it is your explore step, you may immediately explore that location.
...but then, as skizzerz pointed out, every card that grants you an exploration would need that disclaimer as well. We're talking perhaps hundreds of cards. Some of those cards would no longer be able to exist because their text wouldn't fit in the box anymore. Far better to just say in the rulebook "You may never explore outside of your explore step," and be done with it.
...the card as written is clearly and in plain english telling the player they get to explore. You cannot expect the vast player base to all do a rules search on this website on the off chance they misunderstand something so plainly worded.
The first part of that card "clearly and in plain English" tells you can "recharge this card to add 1d8 to your Perception or Stealth check." But you can't do that if you've already played an ally on the check. Should we rewrite it to say "If you haven't played an ally on your Perception or Stealth check, recharge this card to add 1d8?" Should we rewrite hundreds of cards like that? Not if we can just have a rule that says "Each player may play only one of each type of boon on a single check."
The Pathfinder Adventure Card Game uses something called "exception-based design." Rather than explain that myself, I'm going to borrow something someone else wrote:
In traditional playing card games, players treat all cards the same way; sure, they have two different values (suit and number), but in the end a four of spades is just as useful in (for example) making a straight flush as a ten or diamonds. At the very most, there may be two different types of card in, say, a game of poker: value cards, and wildcards, and so long as the different types can easily be held in a player's memory ("aces are wildcards, nonaces are just regular cards") non gaming audiences don't seem to have problems.
What's actually going on here is that these games do not use what is called "exception-based design." Nonexception-based design results in games that, when a player takes an action, what occurs is defined by the overarching rules of the game, cross referenced with value(s) or variable(s) related to the game components used. Cards are a great example of these components When we score a poker hand, we are simply checking the suit and number on the cards, and comparing them as the game rules dictate...
Many more in depth games such as Magic: the Gathering, and Fluxx, however, do use exception-based design. This results in games in which, when a player plays a card (for example), what occurs is defined not by the overarching rules, but primarily by new rules enumerated on the card. For example, in Magic I draw one into my hand every turn. I could play a card that says "you draw two cards every turn," thus amending the rules of the game through exception-based design. Games with exception-based design can have rich card interactions, because amending the rules in complementary ways (called synergies) can from cool strategies. Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of complexity and cognitive load. Instead of being able to think "I have a five, a six and a seven," in an exception-based game I would have to think "I have a card that does a, b, and c, another that does x and y, and another that does l and m, how do these interact?"
Exception-based design allows a mechanical depth that is hard to match with non-expection based design, but it comes with a cost. Most exception-based card game rulebooks tell you somewhere that the job of the cards is to break the rules (the PACG version of that is "If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct"). As the writer mentions, that cost includes "complexity and cognitive load," and part of that cognitive load is that a player has to have a solid understanding of the rules in order to understand what breaking them means, or even does.