Trolls and alter self

[Ravingdork]

If a troll cast alter self to turn into a dwarf, elf, halfling or similar mundane humanoid, would it keep it's regeneration ability or not?

In short, is regeneration dependent on the original form?

[Democratus]

I think the troll is okay.

Alter Self doesn't say it removes any abilities. Only that it can add Darkvision, low-light vision, swim, and scent.

[Ravingdork]

Democratus wrote:

I think the troll is okay.

Alter Self doesn't say it removes any abilities. Only that it can add Darkvision, low-light vision, swim, and scent.

The polymorph rules seem to indicate that "while under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form."

I'm just wondering if regeneration falls into that category, or is something that works independently of his form.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Transmutation school polymorph rules, 6th paragraph wrote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

Bestiary Universal monster rules, Regeneration entry wrote:

Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

So, by this, it's the GM's final call, but the rules suggest that it would lose the ability.

[Drakkiel]

I would say no...I don't see the regeneration being tied to the actual form

For that I imagine some like an EX or SU ability to shoot poison with your tail...you alter yourself to a dwarf...now you have no tail and so lose the ability

Same for anything that requires eyes like gaze attacks...if you are polymorphed to an ooze...you have no eyes...no eyes = no gaze attack

It mentions a few to give you an idea...a lot of animals have scent...if they polymorph to a human I would say they lose that ability

Half orcs have dark vision...humans don't...half Orc into human I would say lose their darkvision

It does say it should be obvious...so I would go with whichever side your common since is leaning

[HaraldKlak]

I my opinion, Regeneration is very much tied to form. As a Ex ability that seem tied to your physiology, it is just as form-dependant as natural armor or your senses.

Additionally, being able to get Regeneration from Giant Form could suggest that it is dependent on the form of a troll.

[Drakkiel]

Hmmm never looked at giant form til now...I would say based on that I am swayed to change my opinion to agree...I'm going to dig around

[Democratus]

I stand corrected. Good catch, Ravingdork!

Looks like it is Transumtation(Polymorph), thus you loose all extraordinary abilities.

[Ravingdork]

Democratus wrote:

I stand corrected. Good catch, Ravingdork!

Looks like it is Transumtation(Polymorph), thus you loose all extraordinary abilities.

Just to be clear, you lose all extraordinary abilities THAT ARE BASED ON YOUR ORIGINAL FORM.

[Gilfalas]

Ravingdork wrote:

Just to be clear, you lose all extraordinary abilities THAT ARE BASED ON YOUR ORIGINAL FORM.

Since Regeneration is not an ability common to all creatures and it is listed as an Exceptional ability on the troll, why would the Regeneration ability not be lost?

Troll is the creatures original form. Use of the spell makes it a dwarf not a troll. Dwarves do not have rengeration and the spell says that when changing with it you lose Ex abilities tied to the original form (in this case Troll).

I don't see any reason the troll would keep it in dwarf form.

Neither would an ogre mage for example.

[Majuba]

Gilfalas wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Just to be clear, you lose all extraordinary abilities THAT ARE BASED ON YOUR ORIGINAL FORM.

Since Regeneration is not an ability common to all creatures and it is listed as an Exceptional ability on the troll, why would the Regeneration ability not be lost?

He's not saying it would be kept, he's just emphasizing that polymorph spells only remove extraordinary abilities based on form. There are other extraordinary abilities that are not based on form that might be kept. A Gnome's Obsessive trait might be an extraordinary ability for instance, or Elven Magic bonus to caster level checks. Also lots of class features and feats.