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I think my favorite part of all D20 role-playing games is the uneasy relationship between devils and demons, and how humankind often gets caught in the middle. I want to run the best home-game to my ability, but it is so hard to get the devil and demon personalities and motivations just right - well, because I'm a human after all.
I want to ratchet it up a notch with my home-game. They know the difference between a demon and a devil, and have had exposure to them in the game - but it's more or less been limited to picking sides and fighting them because they are both a common enemy.
I want to get them closer to the demons and devils to see the true wrath of each species.
Demons want destruction.
Devils want to corrupt.
So, how, in your opinion, could a stock demon and devil each approach the following juicy characters?
Scenario 1:
Neutral aasimar cleric of Calistria.
He was once a goodly cleric crusading against evil, until he met and was tempted by a succubus. Falling in love with this succubus (but also knowing her true nature), he has dedicated his life to pleasing her without falling prey to her true nature. His goal is to find a way to remove the curse of her demonic nature so that he can be with her.
Feeling spurned by his relationship with the succubus, and angry with the institution of love, he seeks to torment those around him with terrible relationships and false hopes of companionship. Nothing makes him happier than to coerce or trick another mortal into a relationship he finds as unsatisfying as his own.
Scenario 2:
Lawful-neutral tiefling commoner.
He is a blacksmith by trade, and a very proud individual - being very good at his craft and knowing it. He works for crusaders and adventurers, crafting and selling them very fine weaponry.
Once married, his wife died young, but only after they had three children. He has no problem supporting those children because of the high quality of his goods and his reputation as a blacksmith, but he worries about raising his children in a proper manner. He overcompensates by doting on them, and trying to keep them distracted from the evils of the world by training them in his trade, and saving enough money to eventually send each one off to prestigious institutions.
A stock demon? An utterly generic one with no plans or motives? Probably murder.
A stock devil might try to entice them into doing evil acts and the former into a lawful alignment as well.
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I see devils as liking to play on your deepest desires and even noble impulses, twisting those things - hence corruption.
A devil would play with the first one's desire to redeem his succubus, perhaps allowing him to find a deeply evil ritual that reportedly will cleanse a demonic taint. For increased subtlety, the ritual could be much less obviously dark, but require evil acts in order to complete it. For example, one of the ingredients is found only in the gardens of a particular monastery, and the monks won't part with their sacred plant - or the ingredient is possessed by an evil person who requires a favour. For bonus points, the ritual's effect is actually to transform a demon into a devil. OR a devil might offer to bind the succubus' affections to the cleric, which might cause a little more mayhem than the devil likes but has the bonus of probably really annoying the succubus.
A devil would go through the second's kids, probably engineering some financial misfortune that the blacksmith would need emergency funds to deal with, and then offering to provide those. Assuming the tiefling is canny and somewhat aware of the ways of devils, they'd probably try to disguise their nature. They might attack his reputation - framing him for something or tainting or cursing his work so it will fail - in order to make him desperate. This might be extra-effective if there's some local prejudice against tieflings (depends on setting). A third tack might be to tempt one of the kids and then maneuver the blacksmith into a position where they have to do evil things in order to save their kids.
The average demon? Torture and murder in both cases, though a smart demon would probably go for the blacksmith's kids first in order to twist the knife.
Demons don't just want destruction, they want more souls more the abyss to shape into their kind. Simply killing somebody does nothing; it's not going to turn the murdered chaotic evil and is only going to draw attention to the Demon. A Demon destroys, but not mindlessly; they destroy things that shapes those around them towards their alignments, like loved ones, objects, ideas, and beliefs.
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That's a good point.
With that in mind, not entirely sure how to go at the cleric from a demon's POV.
The second one's weak point is definitely still his kids, though. Two options. First: kill the kids horribly and frame a goodly person for the act. Watch the blacksmith destroy himself in a quest for revenge. Option two: make the blacksmith kill his own kids. Engineer it as an accident (eg slipping poison into foods he feeds his kids) or if they're really cunning about it, convince him that they're deathly sick with a terrible disease, cursed, approaching damnation, and that it's better for everyone that he kill them mercifully. This will be hard but theoretically possible (Maus mentioned a woman poisoning herself and her children rather than allowing them all to be taken prisoner by the Nazis.) It might help if the information comes through his adventuring customers if there's a relationship of trust there. Then after the kids are dead reveal that it was all a lie. Bonus points: blame someone else and combine with the "revenge" option.
Demons are all about sin. If you want to really use them, you have to start from a point where sinfulness, such as a sexual relationship with a succubus, befouls your soul. If the cleric has engaged her in such a way, then she has already won. He has surrendered to his lust. All she has to do is kill him to send him to the Abyss as demon spawn... unless she can use him to lure others into the web. So, the relationship needs to begin as plutonic, but maybe with the cleric a little to eager to please her other requests.
Devils are all about contracts. Quid pro quot. One of the problems with using devils is, what do you offer that would make a PC put his character on a clock, that also wouldn't unbalance the game? The payment for the devil's service has to be bad enough to damn the PC, the reward has to be fantastic (and significant from a game perspective).
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Demons and devils have specific powers in-game that limit what they might be able to do. I'm going to assume a more generic folklore-style devil/demon with vaguer powers.
For the first, the demon has a much easier time. Neutral or not, the fellow has a relationship with a demon already (she'd probably be the one doing the tempting, really), worships a Chaotic deity, and is getting rather spiteful at the outside world. Most demons have telepathy, so a couple well-placed 'voices in his head' and he becomes CE Cleric of Calistra who takes revenge and spite out on the world all of the time. He's already on the precipice and just needs a shove.
A devil has a harder time, but has leverage in being able to promise to de-demonify the succubus. One infernal contract later, the devil simply kills the succubus or otherwise banishes her from existence. This fulfills the terms of the contract, since there is nothing in a succubus BUT a demon. If you cast out the demon, literally nothing is left. Hell gets a soul, the Abyss is down a demon, and a mortal has been tricked into betraying the only thing he cared about. Win!
In the second case, its a bit tougher. The leverage in both cases has to come via the children.
The devil might start with your standard Faustian bargain: Wealth (to provide for his family) for his soul. Then the twist comes in and it happens via the death of a loved one or something. BORING!
But a devil who plays it right could instead do something akin to the deal Droskar made with the Duergar. Just work a little harder. A little longer. Make a several cheap swords instead of one really cool sword because the profit is better. Before too long, you have turned a talented smith into a toiling hack, and he's teaching his children the same bad habits. Corruption at its best.
The demon would just go for the heartstrings and hurt the children just to make the blacksmith cry.
In the case of the cleric, I would introduce a second demon who wants to re-corrupt the succubus and corrupt the cleric. In both cases, you could have a demon and a devil competing for the souls. With the blacksmith, maybe one of the children has a birthmark that is the holy symbol of Sarenrae. Sarenrae and Asmodeus have a working agreement of sorts, so a devil might want the one child to be a champion and Sarenrae and the other child to become a champion of Asmodeus. A demon is trying to prevent this, and the PCs might want to prevent both. But if the demon is powerful, they may be better off working with the devil (which could advance the plans of either or both of the devil and demon).
I'm not sure where you're getting this "working agreement" thing. While it's true Sarenrae still communicates with evil deities, in hopes they will change their ways, and the fact that she and Asmodeus worked together to imprison Rovagug, she still doesn't like him. I'd wager to say he's her second least favorite god, due to the fact that he kind of murdered Ihys, whom she served at his right hand, during her days as an empyreal lord. Besides all that, his ethos is pretty far opposed from her own; if she and Torag aren't really on friendly terms, she and Asmodeus aren't going to see eye to eye either, to say the least.
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A devil has a harder time, but has leverage in being able to promise to de-demonify the succubus. One infernal contract later, the devil simply kills the succubus or otherwise banishes her from existence. This fulfills the terms of the contract, since there is nothing in a succubus BUT a demon. If you cast out the demon, literally nothing is left. Hell gets a soul, the Abyss is down a demon, and a mortal has been tricked into betraying the only thing he cared about. Win!
How delightfully LE.
While this might be slightly off-topic, particularly since we're discussing the ideas of demons and devils we're familiar with in our games, the language of these two words is really interesting.
Interesting site, but not relevant to PF cosmology and it loses some credibility when it claims Archangels are at the top of the angelic hierarchy - that's Seraphim.
A devil has a harder time, but has leverage in being able to promise to de-demonify the succubus. One infernal contract later, the devil simply kills the succubus or otherwise banishes her from existence. This fulfills the terms of the contract, since there is nothing in a succubus BUT a demon. If you cast out the demon, literally nothing is left. Hell gets a soul, the Abyss is down a demon, and a mortal has been tricked into betraying the only thing he cared about. Win!How delightfully LE.
:-)
So, excellent input all around. Thank you everyone.
I do have a rules mechanics question, then, of which I'm too lazy - er - trust my fellow Pathfinders' knowledge too much to look up the answers myself.
Can demons and devils disguise themselves? I mean, give me some options, other than the infamous Hat of Disguise (because the players would just stop trusting anyone who is wearing a hat) or the Disguise Self spell.
Any creative ideas on how to weave the appearance into the falsehood?
Some of them can. It depends on the exact devil/demon. Look for the 'Change Shape' power. I'm sure some of them have alter self available as a spell-like ability or the like.
Also, some of the more human-shaped ones could conceivably use the Disguise skill. The Disguise penalty for appearing to be a different race is surprisingly minor.
Or Bluff can be used to say 'I know I look like a hideous monster, but that's because I've been cursed by <insert scapegoat here>.'
Edit: Looks like imps and quasits can make themselves look like animals. Succubi can use alter self to look like a humanoid. A few can turn invisible.
Some of them can. It depends on the exact devil/demon. Look for the 'Change Shape' power. I'm sure some of them have alter self available as a spell-like ability or the like.Can demons and devils disguise themselves? I mean, give me some options, other than the infamous Hat of Disguise (because the players would just stop trusting anyone who is wearing a hat) or the Disguise Self spell.
Any creative ideas on how to weave the appearance into the falsehood?
Maybe consider modifying the fey creature template into a "fiendish infiltrator" or even an "extraplanar infiltrator" (because non-evil powers need undercover agents on the Prime too)? It grants change shape and other useful abilities that a devil or demon (or daemon or aeon or azata or whatevs) could find quite handy.
