Feat Prerequisites and Starting Higher Level


Rules Questions


In a campaign I am in, one of the players has argued that if one starts at higher level, one qualifies for all feats as if they had everything they have at the higher starting level when they got the feats. I am of the opinion that this is very wrong, but can't find a single rule to contradict this on the srd.

Anyone with a view point on this matter?


Let me see if I have this right. The other guy is saying that, for example, your 13th level fighter can have critical focus (+9 BAB), deafening critical, tiring critical, and staggering critical (all +13 BAB) just because you started at level 13? That seems utterly ludicrous on its face. Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to find a rule to contradict this because, as far as I know, there are no specific rules written anywhere telling you how to start at higher level than 1.

In my opinion, if you're going to start at level 13 then the character still had to work to get there. Therefore, you need to level up from 1 to 13 following all the rules before beginning play.

EDIT: Nevermind, apparently there are rules for it buried in the Ultimate Campaign book. At least according to the PFSRD it's in there somewhere. *sigh*


Since it is explicitly called out as one of the benefits of retraining that would seem to argue that it is not the norm.

However, no, I don't recall anything saying it doesnt' work.


If I remember correctly, you can 'retrain' (Ultimate Campaign) and you can retrain any feat for something you qualify for at the time.

I believe this was addressed in an FAQ.

So the example listed of having Critical focus, deafening critical and staggering critical would be allowed provided you trained yourself to do so.

If your DM wants to make you build up from level 1 to level 13, then you'd have to work it out level by level. But, as Simon Legrande said, there are no rules telling you how to start at higher level than 1.

Very Respectfully,
--Bacon


As a purely hypothetical tangent, I think I'd let someone do that, and deduct the cost of retraining to get to that condition from their starting wealth.


I agree with Throne. The rules don't exactly say he can't but the rules also assume you are actually leveling up so I would make him choose the level he choose feat X at. The other other is to say he retrained feats.


I'm finding it hard to understand the question but my spider sense is tingling that someone may be trying to get around prerequisites for feats? Otherwise either build from 1st up or use retraining rules I guess...


Cardinal Chunder wrote:
I'm finding it hard to understand the question but my spider sense is tingling that someone may be trying to get around prerequisites for feats?..

Basically that is what is going on.


wraithstrike wrote:
Cardinal Chunder wrote:
I'm finding it hard to understand the question but my spider sense is tingling that someone may be trying to get around prerequisites for feats?..

Basically that is what is going on.

Surely you can't do that?

"hey I got weapon spec so I'll train out weapon focus for imp. crit..."
And stop calling me Shirley.

EDIT: Although there is no specific rule about starting at a higher level common sense says that you have to go through 1 to whatever in order. *sigh* common sense...not so common...


Cardinal Chunder wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Cardinal Chunder wrote:
I'm finding it hard to understand the question but my spider sense is tingling that someone may be trying to get around prerequisites for feats?..

Basically that is what is going on.

Surely you can't do that?

"hey I got weapon spec so I'll train out weapon focus for imp. crit..."
And stop calling me Shirley.

At least the retraining rules specify that you can't untrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another feat you're keeping. It basically just lets you retrain around level requirements.


Hmmmmm... This reminds me of another question I had recently.

Take for example that my sorcerer grabbed up Dazing Spell at 9th level, as all the guides say it's a great feat and it looks incredibly useful. Then later on at 16th level, for argument's sake, I realize that the feat is too much and I don't wish to be "that guy" by subjecting the GM and my party to all the dazing. If I wanted to retrain Dazing Spell for Expanded Arcana, would I have to pick the extra spell I knew as if I were a 9th level sorcerer again? Or could I pick up to an 8th level spell since I'm retraining at level 16?

Furthermore, the cost to retrain a feat is generally 25gp X character level X days to retrain. Therefore, would I treat my character level as 9th for retraining the feat taken at that level or as 16th as the level I'd be at now?


Yeah i thought that was a bit off when i read the retraining rules but it is raw and fighters can retrain feats to higher level ones without needing anything but the core book so it seems to be intended to work that way from the start


BlueAria wrote:
Yeah i thought that was a bit off when i read the retraining rules but it is raw and fighters can retrain feats to higher level ones without needing anything but the core book so it seems to be intended to work that way from the start

But the FAQ on the retraining page says that if you retrain something that's a prerequisite to other feats, you lose the chain. Whether or not this has made it's way into the official errata, I'm not entirely certain, though.


aceDiamond wrote:

Hmmmmm... This reminds me of another question I had recently.

Take for example that my sorcerer grabbed up Dazing Spell at 9th level, as all the guides say it's a great feat and it looks incredibly useful. Then later on at 16th level, for argument's sake, I realize that the feat is too much and I don't wish to be "that guy" by subjecting the GM and my party to all the dazing. If I wanted to retrain Dazing Spell for Expanded Arcana, would I have to pick the extra spell I knew as if I were a 9th level sorcerer again? Or could I pick up to an 8th level spell since I'm retraining at level 16?

Furthermore, the cost to retrain a feat is generally 25gp X character level X days to retrain. Therefore, would I treat my character level as 9th for retraining the feat taken at that level or as 16th as the level I'd be at now?

I would price it as your current level and let you get the higher level spells what's good for the fighters is good for the wizard

Just my gut ruling, we have allowed retraining but never to circumvent level or BAB prerequisite but pathfinder rules seem to be OK with it


This cropped up in the PFS rules section where it looked legal to retrain an Arcane Archer so you had no fighter levels...I can't find the posts and to be honest I just skimmed it all but as RAW it kinda looked legit. Obviously RAI its BS but as a lot of times Paizo try to give us nice things and a small percentage of players ignore common sense/intent and extrapolate a word/phrase to the absurd. Which is a shame.

If by RAW this is legit then it needs to errata'd to close this loop-hole.

Honestly we have house ruled that if you weren't happy with a feat, etc. you just swap it out. Guess I'm lucky that my players are mature enough and possess enough common sense NOT to cheese a per-req skip.

At my table there is no way you could do this to skip having a requirement.

YMMV, IMHO, etc, etc...


Since you definitely can do this with the retraining rules from UCamp, I would simply let them do it from the start.

@Cardinal Chunder: You always have to maintain your requirements, even through retraining. So you must keep all listed feat prerequisites; you can't dump Combat Expertise and keep the Improved Trip\Grapple feats, etc.

If the only prerequisites are level-dependent, like BAB amount or caster level, then you can retrain those feats into a slot you 'earned' before you actually met the prerequisite.

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