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Can an alchemist use a conductive weapon to channel their Bombs and deal their bomb's damage through a bow and arrow?
Might wanna edit that last bit, SRM has already gotten onto one guy today for asking people to FAQ his post. It goes against the guidelines and can get this removed from the FAQ queue.
I put it so as to avoid people thinking this was another place to stir up the same discussion I'm trying to circumvent. But it does say that in the FAQing thread.
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).
In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist’s bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.
I can see both sides.
On a direct reading it seems that Conductive can be applied to Bombs. It's a super natural ability and requires a ranged touch attack meeting all the requirements. So it works.
On the other hand. The ability says that you create a bomb which is considered a weapon that you then throw. The Throw Splash Weapon special attack it tells you to use is not an SU ability that requires a ranged touch attack to hit the target. The Conductive property appears to be intended to add extra energy to your attack, not a physical item. So thinking of it that way it wouldn't work.
If a Bomb did not rely on some sort of mystical force from the Alchemist, it would be an Ex rather than an Su. The chemicals they mix together are "volatile" by the ability's description - but it also states that the only reason they are as powerful as they are is because the alchemist
"[infuses] them with their magical reserves".
Additionally (as I pointed out in the other thread) the sentence right before the one you bolded in the Bombs ability is important in my opinion; it's an indication that the throwing of the bomb is considered a part of the same action (i.e., of the overall ability) (in the same way a touch attack, while a separate 'attack' unto itself, is part of the casting of a touch spell or touch spell-based SLA).
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I'd have to say it wouldn't work for two reasons; if the character does not have a free hand to draw and create the bomb in the first place, they won't be able to have a bomb to utilize with the Conductive property.
The Conductive property, by RAW, doesn't circumvent the factor that you need to have at least one free hand to draw the components out and create the bomb in the first place.
In addition, I'd like to point out this clause:
Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.
Although the Alchemist Bombs are listed as a Supernatural Ability, it is stated that the bombs being created are their own specific weapons, such a property otherwise not present in other "ranged touch attack" supernatural abilities usable with Conductive.
If I was using Two-Weapon Fighting (or even Two-Weapon Throwing, in this case) with a previously-created Bomb, if I hit with a Conductive thrown weapon, I don't think you could use the Conductive Property to create an item that is already considered its own weapon and apply its effects to part of that attack.
Once the bomb is created (as a Supernatural effect), it is its own weapon. Therefore, the Conductive property would not apply.
If a Bomb did not rely on some sort of mystical force from the Alchemist, it would be an Ex rather than an Su. The chemicals they mix together are "volatile" by the ability's description - but it also states that the only reason they are as powerful as they are is because the alchemist
"[infuses] them with their magical reserves".Additionally (as I pointed out in the other thread) the sentence right before the one you bolded in the Bombs ability is important in my opinion; it's an indication that the throwing of the bomb is considered a part of the same action (i.e., of the overall ability) (in the same way a touch attack, while a separate 'attack' unto itself, is part of the casting of a touch spell or touch spell-based SLA).
I agree with you. On all points. It is an Su ability.
But Darksol has made a very good point as well.
I will re-iterate that the Conductive property 'channels the energy' and that Bombs are clearly stated as being weapons not energy.
Also, as Darksol has repeatedly pointed out. You're holding an arrow. You're holding a bow. How are you making the bomb? Alchemists are not casters but they still need at least one hand to make a bomb.
These two points have put me in the opinion that it doesn't work. Even if you had multiple limbs to create the bomb.
If a Bomb did not rely on some sort of mystical force from the Alchemist, it would be an Ex rather than an Su. The chemicals they mix together are "volatile" by the ability's description - but it also states that the only reason they are as powerful as they are is because the alchemist
"[infuses] them with their magical reserves".Additionally (as I pointed out in the other thread) the sentence right before the one you bolded in the Bombs ability is important in my opinion; it's an indication that the throwing of the bomb is considered a part of the same action (i.e., of the overall ability) (in the same way a touch attack, while a separate 'attack' unto itself, is part of the casting of a touch spell or touch spell-based SLA).
I agree with you. On all points. It is an Su ability.
But Darksol has made a very good point as well.
I will re-iterate that the Conductive property 'channels the energy' and that Bombs are clearly stated as being weapons not energy.
Also, as Darksol has repeatedly pointed out. You're holding an arrow. You're holding a bow. How are you making the bomb? Alchemists are not casters but they still need at least one hand to make a bomb.
These two points have put me in the opinion that it doesn't work. Even if you had multiple limbs to create the bomb.
Just to clarify; yes, it is an SU, but that in no way gives any circumventions to the abilities stated RAW. You must be able to draw the components and compile the bomb in order to do so. To do so requires hands or a Prehensile Tail (which is a Swift Action with the Tail, by the way, something which I doubt can be done when you're in the middle of resolving the attack. Just as well, a Prehensile Tail can't use fine detailing that requires fingers, something of which I'm sure creating an Alchemical Bomb requires). No hands to draw and create the bomb = no ability to create the bomb = no bomb.
In addition, once it's created, it becomes its own weapon. If I made an attack with a weapon without a Conductive Property while I have a Conductive Property weapon drawn, would you let me use that Conductive Property on the other weapon that doesn't possess it? I didn't think so.
The same logic applies. If I shoot an arrow at a target (assuming a 3 or 4 armed Alchemist), I can use the supernatural ability once I hit to allow me to draw and create the bomb, but once the bomb is created, it becomes its own weapon, meaning it no longer is applicable for the Conductive Property.
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You guys question how someone can hold a bow and arrow and create a bomb, but the Alchemist already has a discovery that lets them mix a bomb and an arrow together. It's called Explosive Missile. Here's the text:
Explosive Missile: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.
Nowhere does it state that you need to have more than two hands. You imbue the arrow with a bomb, load the arrow and fire it. All as a standard action. At the low, low cost of ONE bomb. This is exactly the same as Conductive, except Conductive costs two bombs. Hell, you can combine both Conductive and Explosive Missile for two bombs worth of damage at the cost of three bombs/day. Why? Because Conductive is a free action and Explosive Missile is a standard action.
You guys question how someone can hold a bow and arrow and create a bomb, but the Alchemist already has a discovery that lets them mix a bomb and an arrow together. It's called Explosive Missile. Here's the text:
Explosive Missile: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.Nowhere does it state that you need to have more than two hands. You imbue the arrow with a bomb, load the arrow and fire it. All as a standard action. At the low, low cost of ONE bomb. This is exactly the same as Conductive, except Conductive costs two bombs. Hell, you can combine both Conductive and Explosive Missile for two bombs worth of damage at the cost of three bombs/day.
While the Discovery practically solves everything (to a point), it doesn't change that the bolded part cannot be true.
Please see my reasoning above.
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While the Discovery practically solves everything (to a point), it doesn't change that the bolded part cannot be true.
Please see my reasoning above.
Don't be so coy and say exactly why this is true.
Everything you have said has been refuted. You don't need a free hand. Bombs are weapons as much as rays or held spell charges are weapons (you can use point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus, etc. on these types of weapons as well), yet it is pretty obvious those two can be used with Conductive (so long as they stem from SLAs or SU abilities). Bombs are a supernatural ranged touch attack. QED: Bombs works with conductive bows.
@ TGMaxMaxer: That is different. The hand requirement is only to channel and deliver the touch effect, of which both the example iterates upon (specifically saying it is channeled through the weapon, not the hand) and supersedes that general rule. But it's not what I was talking about.
Needing a hand to deliver the effect is different from needing a hand to draw the components to be able to create the effect in the first place. You wouldn't let me cast a Spell with minor material components if my hands were full, but I could most definitely use a Supernatural ability if it didn't require hands to activate.
In addition, you don't have to dig into your satchel for materials and create an actual weapon for LoH; something that, while part of the Supernatural Ability, isn't superseded by the general rule of needing hands open to do so.
The hand requirement isn't for delivering the bomb; and that's ignoring that the bomb is its own weapon. The hand requirement is for drawing components and compiling those same components into a bomb.
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@ TGMaxMaxer: That is different. The hand requirement is only to channel and deliver the touch effect, of which both the example iterates upon (specifically saying it is channeled through the weapon, not the hand) and supersedes that general rule. But it's not what I was talking about.
Needing a hand to deliver the effect is different from needing a hand to draw the components to be able to create the effect in the first place. You wouldn't let me cast a Spell with minor material components if my hands were full, but I could most definitely use a Supernatural ability if it didn't require hands to activate.
In addition, you don't have to dig into your satchel for materials and create an actual weapon for LoH; something that, while part of the Supernatural Ability, isn't superseded by the general rule of needing hands open to do so.
The hand requirement isn't for delivering the bomb; and that's ignoring that the bomb is its own weapon. The hand requirement is for drawing components and compiling those same components into a bomb.
You still fail to see that another ability already allows you to do all three actions with two hands, which means its possible and therefore you argument doesn't hold water.
Actually not everything...
The Explosive Missile is a strong argument and has put me on the side that it works.
Still. Conductive channels energy. Bombs are physical weapons. Yes Rays are weapons, but they are pure energy. Lay on Hands is pure energy. Bombs are not pure energy. Although it would definitely work with the discovery; it still might not with Conductive RAI.
Don't be so coy. Everything you have said has been refuted. You don't need a free hand. Bombs are weapons as much as rays or held spell charges are weapons (you can use point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus, etc. on these types of weapons as well), yet it is pretty obvious those two can be used with Conductive (so long as they stem from SLAs or SU abilities). Bombs are a supernatural ranged touch attack that need components to be drawn and compiled.While the Discovery practically solves everything (to a point), it doesn't change that the bolded part cannot be true.
Please see my reasoning above.
FTFY.
A ray or held spell is not a physical weapon that is held in hand. Yes, you (sometimes) use your hand to deliver it, but a bomb is not. It is its own subject. The ability even says that the bomb is considered a weapon, for all intents and purposes. A Ray or held spell is not.
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Actually not everything...
The Explosive Missile is a strong argument and has put me on the side that it works.
Still. Conductive channels energy. Bombs are physical weapons. Yes Rays are weapons, but they are pure energy. Lay on Hands is pure energy. Bombs are not pure energy. Although it would definitely work with the discovery; it still might not with Conductive RAI.
Bombs from the PRD: Alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.
There is a strong energy aspect to bombs. Just imagine that the double bomb cost is required because the alchemist can't use as much volatile chemicals [he has to smear it on the arrow instead of attaching a vial] and has to put even more magical energy into the ammunition to make it explode.
You still fail to see that another ability already allows you to do all three actions with two hands, which means its possible and therefore you argument doesn't hold water.@ TGMaxMaxer: That is different. The hand requirement is only to channel and deliver the touch effect, of which both the example iterates upon (specifically saying it is channeled through the weapon, not the hand) and supersedes that general rule. But it's not what I was talking about.
Needing a hand to deliver the effect is different from needing a hand to draw the components to be able to create the effect in the first place. You wouldn't let me cast a Spell with minor material components if my hands were full, but I could most definitely use a Supernatural ability if it didn't require hands to activate.
In addition, you don't have to dig into your satchel for materials and create an actual weapon for LoH; something that, while part of the Supernatural Ability, isn't superseded by the general rule of needing hands open to do so.
The hand requirement isn't for delivering the bomb; and that's ignoring that the bomb is its own weapon. The hand requirement is for drawing components and compiling those same components into a bomb.
A Discovery, separate from a weapon property, holds no water either. They are two completely different animals. Saying that it's possible with a separate subject has no relevance to the original subject matter being discussed.
The Discovery comes out and says you can do blah blah blah all within the Standard Action; that is no different from the original Bomb language. The difference is the train of thought changes from being Thrown Weapons into being Ammunition, and doesn't require components to be drawn and compiled into a weapon. He infuses the power of his bombs into an already-created weapon. As a Standard Action. Which is not listed as a Supernatural or Spell-Like Ability. Big differences there.
Actually not everything...
The Explosive Missile is a strong argument and has put me on the side that it works.
Still. Conductive channels energy. Bombs are physical weapons. Yes Rays are weapons, but they are pure energy. Lay on Hands is pure energy. Bombs are not pure energy. Although it would definitely work with the discovery; it still might not with Conductive RAI.
Bombs from the PRD: Alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.
There is a strong energy aspect to bombs. Just imagine that the double bomb cost is required because the alchemist can't use as much volatile chemicals [he has to smear it on the arrow instead of attaching a vial] and has to put even more magical energy into the ammunition to make it explode.
And where in the RAW does it allow you to circumvent the requirement of drawing components and creating the object needed to hurl at your enemy? If I didn't have a Dagger drawn to throw at an enemy, could I just magically throw nothing and expect the Dagger to work automatically?
I'll ask the same question I asked in the other thread that everybody conveniently sidestepped because it was uncomfortable.
Do you deny that Bombs are Su abilities?
Do you deny that they are ranged touch attacks?
Because they are clearly both. And being both makes them valid for Conductive.
The Discovery comes out and says you can do blah blah blah all within the Standard Action; that is no different from the original Bomb language. The difference is the train of thought changes from being Thrown Weapons into being Ammunition, and doesn't require components to be drawn and compiled into a weapon. He infuses the power of his bombs into an already-created weapon. As a Standard Action. Which is not listed as a Supernatural or Spell-Like Ability. Big differences there.
Wait, what? Alchemist Bombs stop being an Su ability when the Explosive Missile discovery is selected?
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A ray or held spell is not a physical weapon that is held in hand. Yes, you (sometimes) use your hand to deliver it, but a bomb is not. It is its own subject. The ability even says that the bomb is considered a weapon, for all intents and purposes. A Ray or held spell is not.
Untrue. A FAQ was released stating that Rays are indeed weapons in their own right.
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
Additionally, melee touch spells are also considered weapons in their own right. This is why you don't provoke when you attack with them.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject...
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity...
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely...
I'll ask the same question I asked in the other thread that everybody conveniently sidestepped because it was uncomfortable.
Do you deny that Bombs are Su abilities?
Do you deny that they are ranged touch attacks?
Because they are clearly both. And being both makes them valid for Conductive.
While it may be that simple to you, it really shouldn't be.
Let's say I got some Laser Eyes Supernatural Ability that grants me Ranged Touch Attacks, of which requires Eyes to originate from. I also have a Conductive bow with arrows.
If I am some eyeless creature with Blindsense, by your logic, I can hit with an Arrow and apply my Laser Eyes Supernatural Ability, even though I lack the eyes needed to use the ability.
But what if I had a Robe of Eyes equipped, just for fun; would the Eyes from the Robe of Eyes count as Eyes for the purposes of the Supernatural Ability, even though they are just decorative?
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While it may be that simple to you, it really shouldn't be."Blah, blah, blah. An extremely contrived example."
Talk about bringing in extraneous topics and acting as if they are relevant. Bombs are supernatural. Bombs are ranged touch attacks. They work with Conductive.
Additionally, bombs are supernatural. The book says it right after the word "Bombs". That's what (Su) means. "Bombs (Su)". Bombs are supernatural.
The Discovery comes out and says you can do blah blah blah all within the Standard Action; that is no different from the original Bomb language. The difference is the train of thought changes from being Thrown Weapons into being Ammunition, and doesn't require components to be drawn and compiled into a weapon. He infuses the power of his bombs into an already-created weapon. As a Standard Action. Which is not listed as a Supernatural or Spell-Like Ability. Big differences there.Wait, what? Alchemist Bombs stop being an Su ability when the Explosive Missile discovery is selected?
As far as I can tell, it sure does. There's multiple factors:
Explosive Missile: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.
The first thing is that this bolded part suggests it is its own standard action from actually creating the bomb in the first place. It also doesn't subtract from the factor that an Explosive Missile, a separate entity from a created Bomb, is not listed with (SU), even though it is a Discovery.
I'll also suggest that the Discovery only allows you to apply the effects of the Bomb; if applying the effects of an SU ability turns an action into an SU ability, then I'll concede this point.
@ Kaito: If you can prove to me that the Alchemical Bombs are not Manufactured Weapons that require hands to carry and utilize, the definition of the term "weapon" being applied to the created Bombs, then I'll concede to them being applicable with the Conductive Property. But since they require components to compile and manufacture into an object, I wish you good luck with that.
I believe that the fact that bombs are not pure energy but have a physical component unlike the other abilities is what the argument is. That fact may cause an errata to occur.
They do work as written.
Yes.
There is nothing stopping you from channeling your Su Ranged Touch attack through a Conductive weapon.
It needs eyes to originate from, normally, but Conductive changes it to originating from the arrow's impact.
Though your example is quite silly in that a creature with no eyes would not HAVE an ability that requires eyes, you're just contriving a scenario that makes you look more correct than you really are.
A more valid example would be "Can a creature with Laser Eyes shut his eyes and still use his Conductive bow utilizing his other senses to channel it?"
Yes.
He is channeling the energy through the arrow, not his eyes.
Conductive makes no mention of having to meet the normal requirements for using the ability, because it is a special condition whereby you can apply effects you normally would not be able to to a weapon.
While it may be that simple to you, it really shouldn't be."Blah, blah, blah. An extremely contrived example."
Talk about bringing in extraneous topics and acting as if they are relevant. Bombs are supernatural. Bombs are ranged touch attacks. They work with Conductive.
Additionally, bombs are supernatural. The book says it right after the word "Bombs". That's what (Su) means. "Bombs (Su)". Bombs are supernatural.
Except they are. Let me paraphrase it with the more relevant subjects.
Let's say I got some Bomb Supernatural Ability that allows me to create a Bomb to throw at an enemy, of which requires components to draw and compile the bomb. I also have a Conductive bow with arrows.
If I have no hands free, by your logic, I can draw the components of the bomb, create the bomb and throw it, even though I lack the hands needed to draw the component.
But let's ignore the whole "hands" thing, since Alchemists can cover that base pretty well.
I never said Bombs weren't supernatural; Bombs are a Supernatural, manufactured object that requires a ranged attack to throw it. My point is, when it becomes a manufactured object separate from the Weapon or Ammunition, Supernatural or not, how does it become applicable to Conductive weapon?
It's not a manufactured object. Those are listed under Equipment. It is an ability (a Su ability) that happens to have a physical product as part of its use.
Though honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo vetoes this, they have weird ideas when it comes to Alchemist stuff (Extracts never count as spells, for one thing).
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@ Kaito: If you can prove to me that the Alchemical Bombs are not Manufactured Weapons that require hands to carry and utilize, the definition of the term "weapon" being applied to the created Bombs, then I'll concede to them being applicable with the Conductive Property. But since they require...
Melee touch spells require hands to carry and utilize. Rays require hands to utilize. It has already been stated that both of these are weapons. I fail to see what definition of "weapon" you are using because it is not the definition created by Paizo.
Does the supernatural magical energy given to the bombs by the alchemist suddenly stop being supernatural in the bomb? Somehow the supernatural magic is converted to... what? Gravy? More explosive chemicals? If it is converted to explosive chemicals, then why use magical energy at all and not more explosive chemicals?
Though honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo vetoes this, they have weird ideas when it comes to Alchemist stuff (Extracts never count as spells, for one thing).
I wouldn't be surprised either. Explosive Missile is essentially a better version on the Conductive property. They could decide that Bombs are a special exception to the Conductive property; they don't work; use the Discovery...it not only does the same thing it's better.
It's not a manufactured object. Those are listed under Equipment. It is an ability (a Su ability) that happens to have a physical product as part of its use.
Though honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo vetoes this, they have weird ideas when it comes to Alchemist stuff (Extracts never count as spells, for one thing).
If it is not a manufactured object, then why does it require physical components or the need to compile these said components? That language alone implies it is infact a manufactured object; if it really is not the case, why do they even have it there?
@Kaito: If it becomes its own weapon to attack with, as well as an object, and not an effect of merely activating the ability, how could it apply?
The factor of it being Supernatural is not relevant to my argument. I can sit here and tack a SP tag on a spell such as Flame Blade, but just because I make attacks with a Conductive Weapon, separate from Flame Blade, doesn't mean I deal damage with the Flame Blade too, which is its own object and weapon.
Actually scratch what I said.
Explosive Missile would be used for a single attack for one use
The Conductive Property would take up two uses of your Bombs for the same thing BUT you'd be able to use your Full Attack.
Not sure they could be used together however because the damage is essentially coming from the same source.
I'll ask the same question I asked in the other thread that everybody conveniently sidestepped because it was uncomfortable.
Do you deny that Bombs are Su abilities?
Do you deny that they are ranged touch attacks?
Because they are clearly both. And being both makes them valid for Conductive.
I didn't sidestep it. You didn't like my answer.
Also, the bombs ability never says "ranged touch attack" Never. It only says "uses the throw splash weapon special attack" which just happens to target touch. It could have said uses the overrun special attack, but it didn't. I don't know if I'd qualify that as meeting the criteria for conductive even if I agreed about what the ability is and isn't. It definitely makes it look very iffy in RAI territory.
@ Kaito: If you can prove to me that the Alchemical Bombs are not Manufactured Weapons that require hands to carry and utilize, the definition of the term "weapon" being applied to the created Bombs, then I'll concede to them being applicable with the Conductive Property. But since they require...Melee touch spells require hands to carry and utilize. Rays require hands to utilize. It has already been stated that both of these are weapons. I fail to see what definition of "weapon" you are using because it is not the definition created by Paizo.
Does the supernatural magical energy given to the bombs by the alchemist suddenly stop being supernatural in the bomb? Somehow the supernatural magic is converted to... what? Gravy? More explosive chemicals? If it is converted to explosive chemicals, then why use magical energy at all and not more explosive chemicals?
"Bombs" is a supernatural ability. The bombs you male with it are supernatural but not abilities. It is a thing you can hold or give to someone else like a dagger but not like a ray.
If it is not a manufactured object, then why does it require physical components or the need to compile these said components? That language alone implies it is in fact a manufactured object; if it really is not the case, why do they even have it there?
Because of flavor. Alchemist is supposed to be "The Mad Scientist" character.
He uses chemicals and such to replicate the effects of spells, with minimal magic.
That flavor should not restrict the Alchemist in everything he would like to do just because it's there. The Conductive property spells out exactly what it works with.
Su/SLA abilities that make touch attacks.
Bombs are a Su ability that makes a ranged touch attack.
That's all there is to it. There is no ambiguity here.
You may prefer that the flavor matches the ability (even though the flavor can EASILY match the ability as-is...), but that doesn't change the fact that it works as written.
Plus, "manufactured weapon" is its own thing in PF. It refers to the things found on Table: Weapons. Bombs is not on there...because it's not a manufactured weapon. It is a Su ability for the Alchemist class that is TREATED as a weapon (not a manufactured weapon) for Feats and effects relating to weapons (it is a Splash Weapon, specifically).
If it is not a manufactured object, then why does it require physical components or the need to compile these said components? That language alone implies it is in fact a manufactured object; if it really is not the case, why do they even have it there?Because of flavor. Alchemist is supposed to be "The Mad Scientist" character.
He uses chemicals and such to replicate the effects of spells, with minimal magic.
That flavor should not restrict the Alchemist in everything he would like to do just because it's there. The Conductive property spells out exactly what it works with.
Su/SLA abilities that make touch attacks.
Bombs are a Su ability that makes a ranged touch attack.
That's all there is to it. There is no ambiguity here.
You may prefer that the flavor matches the ability (even though the flavor can EASILY match the ability as-is...), but that doesn't change the fact that it works as written.
Plus, "manufactured weapon" is its own thing in PF. It refers to the things found on Table: Weapons. Bombs is not on there...because it's not a manufactured weapon. It is a Su ability for the Alchemist class that is TREATED as a weapon (not a manufactured weapon) for Feats and effects relating to weapons (it is a Splash Weapon, specifically).
I initially said Manufactured Weapon, but I changed it realizing that it was a game term. Hence my rephrasing it to "Manufactured Object". It's an object in the game world, and it is devised and created by the Alchemist, the conventional definition of being manufactured, through Supernatural means. Is that the definition of what it is or not?
The point is, it's considered its own object, which is considered to be as a weapon. A Ray or Held Spell is not an object, but a Bomb is.
As I've stated previously, if I had Flame Blade as an at-will Spell-Like Ability, and a Conductive Weapon, would you let me use the Conductive Property to deal Flame Blade damage as if I hit with it? That's essentially what you are allowing with the Alchemist Bombs.
Flame Blade as an SLA is an SLA that is a touch attack.
It is valid for use with Conductive. Assuming you have it more than 1/day.
Your weapon would then be dealing (Weapon)+1d8+(2*CL) in damage.
"Manufactured Object" is not a game term at all, it is something you made up.
No, that is not what a Bomb is. A Bomb is a Su ability that has a physical product.
A Bomb does not truly "exist" except in relation to the Alchemist. It becomes merely some fizzy rocks when he's not holding it. The Alchemist is what gives it the power to work.
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"Bombs" is a supernatural ability. The bombs you male with it are supernatural but not abilities. It is a thing you can hold or give to someone else like a dagger but not like a ray.
If I put my dagger in a friend's hand, they can stab someone with it. If I touch their hand to "pass" a touch spell's held charge, the energy discharges and they are unable to use it. If I put a bomb in my friend's hand, what happens? The energy discharges and they are unable to use it.
An alchemist’s bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.
Certainly doesn't sound like it's more like a dagger. Definitely sounds more like a spell.
What's the AC of a bomb? If its an object then I should be able to ready an action to shoot the bomb out of the alchemists hand before he throws it right? This would actually be very useful
So if its an object what is the AC/hardness of a bomb?
Flame Blade as an SLA is an SLA that is a touch attack.
It is valid for use with Conductive. Assuming you have it more than 1/day.
Your weapon would then be dealing (Weapon)+1d8+(2*CL) in damage.
"Manufactured Object" is not a game term at all, it is something you made up.
No, that is not what a Bomb is. A Bomb is a Su ability that has a physical product.
A Bomb does not truly "exist" except in relation to the Alchemist. It becomes merely some fizzy rocks when he's not holding it. The Alchemist is what gives it the power to work.
That's not what the spell says.
The spell itself creates a "sword-like beam", which mimics a Scimitar, which is a manufactured weapon. It then modifies the general rules you'd normally use for attacking with manufactured weapons when attacking with this weapon, saying you make melee touch attacks with it instead of normal melee attacks, and that you don't apply your Strength modifier to damage.
I never claimed Manufactured Object to be a game term; it is what I used to essentially describe what the bomb physically is. An explosive, throwing object manufactured by the Alchemist. Are you saying the bomb is not an object? Then what is it, a glob of supernatural energy that the Alchemist whipped up to throw at the guy? While it explains your point, that's not how the book appears to describe it.
@ Kaito: Just because it goes inert when it's not in possession of the Alchemist does not make it a spell. It doesn't even make it a Spell-Like Ability, especially since there is no (SP) label on it. There's an (SU) label on it. It's simply the mechanic of the ability in question.
@ Drakkiel: If you're going to try and ready an action to hit an Alchemist's Bomb out of their hands, you'd probably need to perform a Disarm maneuver, going against the target's CMD (since the Bomb is not an Intelligent Item able to use whatever CMD it may have), or a Called Shot to the arm/hand holding the bomb.
As far as calculating Hardness and such, it's easiest to go based off of the material type and how thick the containers for them are.
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@ Kaito: Just because it goes inert when it's not in possession of the Alchemist does not make it a spell. It doesn't even make it a Spell-Like Ability, especially since there is no (SP) label on it. There's an (SU) label on it. It's simply the mechanic of the ability in question.
Wow, that in no way addresses what I said in response to your statement. I never said it was a spell or an SLA. It is very clearly a supernatural ability. I have explained that to you at great lengths. I said it is more like a spell then like a dagger because you seem to think dagger and magical energy bomb are the same thing.
Also, don't make up terms. If Paizo doesn't use them, then rules questions don't need to bother with them.
Thirdly, a bomb is essentially a glob of supernatural energy created by the Alchemist. How else do you explain why it goes inert in the hands of a non-Alchemist?
So bombs are weapons and do weapon damage then, right?
@ Drakkiel: If you're going to try and ready an action to hit an Alchemist's Bomb out of their hands, you'd probably need to perform a Disarm maneuver, going against the target's CMD (since the Bomb is not an Intelligent Item able to use whatever CMD it may have), or a Called Shot to the arm/hand holding the bomb.As far as calculating Hardness and such, it's easiest to go based off of the material type and how thick the containers for them are.
No I want to hit the bomb itself...causing it to explode...if its clearly in the rules that the bomb is an object then it should have a listed AC and hardness somewhere
What is the material type used for the bombs? How thick are they? These things I imagine are not important normally because bombs are simply a supernatural ability.
However since we are going "full retard" on bombs being objects its important we get a handle on these types of queries as well
If I shatter all glass on an alchemist is he now tunable to make bombs?
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Yes bombs are supernatural. Yes they target touch AC. But they're not a ranged touch attack. They're a thrown splash weapon. Conductive is careful with it's wording on that.
You do realize that thrown splash weapons are ranged touch attacks, right? If the bomb didn't say use the thrown splash weapon rules and instead said make a ranged touch attack, then you would have to spell it out again to show how bombs operate (e.g. Splash damage, misses, etc.). You cannot say that "Yes, they target touch AC. Yes, they are ranged attacks" and "No, they are not a ranged touch attack." That is the very definition of a ranged touch attack.
At the end of the day the bomb ability specifically calls for bombs to be used "as a thrown splash weapon."
So the question is does this count as a ranged touch attack. I would say no, they're clearly 2 different categories of action.
I know I was on the other side of the fence earlier but thinking more I'm pretty sure this is how it works.
Yes bombs are supernatural. Yes they target touch AC. But they're not a ranged touch attack. They're a thrown splash weapon. Conductive is careful with it's wording on that.
I think this is the best arguement for it not working with conductive
That's not what the spell says.The spell itself creates a "sword-like beam", which mimics a Scimitar, which is a manufactured weapon. It then modifies the general rules you'd normally use for attacking with manufactured weapons when attacking with this weapon, saying you make melee touch attacks with it instead of normal melee attacks, and that you don't apply your Strength modifier to damage.
And normally Arcane Bolt is a bolt of pure magical force the Wizard shoots.
Conductive changes things.
I never claimed Manufactured Object to be a game term; it is what I used to essentially describe what the bomb physically is. An explosive, throwing object manufactured by the Alchemist. Are you saying the bomb is not an object? Then what is it, a glob of supernatural energy that the Alchemist whipped up to throw at the guy? While it explains your point, that's not how the book appears to describe it.
Actually, the book never really describes the final Bomb product.
It describes what it is made of (a catalyst and magical energy) but never what it looks like. It could as easily be a little explosive vial, a glob of "Concentrated explosion", or one of those little cartoon bombs with a fuse on it.
Also, if you're not claiming Manufactured Object is some kind of game term, why do you keep capitalizing it?
That generally assumes you're putting some kind of significance to it, just like there's a world of difference between "the white house" and "The White House".