Derron42 |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is one of the best adventure paths ... EVER. And I'm including Age of Worms & Savage Tide. As a fan who just turned 40, I know that sentiment runs deep for players of my generation in relation to Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants, & Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, etc.
But Paizo ... with ALL of their adventure paths ... have raised the bar to Michael Phelps-esque levels. Well done folks ... be proud.
captain yesterday |
This is one of the best adventure paths ... EVER. And I'm including Age of Worms & Savage Tide. As a fan who just turned 40, I know that sentiment runs deep for players of my generation in relation to Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants, & Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, etc.
But Paizo ... with ALL of their adventure paths ... have raised the bar to Michael Phelps-esque levels. Well done folks ... be proud.
Who is Micheal Phelps?
Enlight_Bystand |
Derron42 wrote:Who is Micheal Phelps?This is one of the best adventure paths ... EVER. And I'm including Age of Worms & Savage Tide. As a fan who just turned 40, I know that sentiment runs deep for players of my generation in relation to Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants, & Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, etc.
But Paizo ... with ALL of their adventure paths ... have raised the bar to Michael Phelps-esque levels. Well done folks ... be proud.
Porridge |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is one of the best adventure paths ... EVER. And I'm including Age of Worms & Savage Tide. As a fan who just turned 40, I know that sentiment runs deep for players of my generation in relation to Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants, & Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, etc.
But Paizo ... with ALL of their adventure paths ... have raised the bar to Michael Phelps-esque levels. Well done folks ... be proud.
Hear hear!
An amazing string of fantastically well-written adventures, just dripping with texture and atmosphere---the Rise of the Runelords, Legacy of Fire, Jade Regent, Skull and Shackles, Reign of Winter...
When I look back at my old favorites (the Desert of Desolation modules, the Tomb of Horrors, etc.) and I compare them to Paizo's adventure paths, they pale by comparison.
Black Dougal |
I think Wrath delivered a lot of the "goodies" that players secretly crave but rarely get..to reach the pinacle of power and be movers and shakers for the whole world. Despite some critical opinion regarding PC's being unstopable at higher levels, I think on the whole this path delivers a great story and I don't see much if anything I would modify storywise when I run it.
Cat-thulhu |
It's meant that we'll probably use mythic in our other games - perhaps 1-2 tier. Once you taste the power you become its slave.
I'm in the same camp as you Joshua Goudreau. I like to modify adventures and fill in or replace the weaker parts. I find it really hard in this AP it's simply well done.
magnuskn |
As far as the storyline goes, aside from the somewhat disjointed book three, this AP is in the absolute top tier with Curse of the Crimson Throne.
As far as combat balance goes, I think the high-level combat suffers from the usual problems AP's have at the tail end, compounded by the insanity which is the mythic rules. I certainly would have wished that this AP would have been done without that additional ruleset, if only to see how Paizo would handle level 18-20 play with only the actual normal rules.
Daethor |
As far as the storyline goes, aside from the somewhat disjointed book three, this AP is in the absolute top tier with Curse of the Crimson Throne.
As far as combat balance goes, I think the high-level combat suffers from the usual problems AP's have at the tail end, compounded by the insanity which is the mythic rules. I certainly would have wished that this AP would have been done without that additional ruleset, if only to see how Paizo would handle level 18-20 play with only the actual normal rules.
But remember, it's very hard to physically fit the amount of encounters necessary to reach 20th level without sacrificing story elements. Mythic helps you level faster and thus allows you to reach these top tiers in the space confines of the AP.
Heine Stick |
I was actually complaining to my girlfriend last night that I was disappointed with Wrath of the Righteous because it's too well written and I really enjoy tinkering with adventures. If there aren't problems to fix then what am I supposed to rewrite?
If you can't rewrite, EXPAAAND! That's what the slow XP advancement track is for...:)
And as someone who's playing through the adventure path, I agree that, so far, it's a top-quality adventure path.
magnuskn |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But remember, it's very hard to physically fit the amount of encounters necessary to reach 20th level without sacrificing story elements. Mythic helps you level faster and thus allows you to reach these top tiers in the space confines of the AP.
Quite honestly, I find the "there aren't enough XP!" argument absurd. If there aren't enough XP, then provide them. Who cares if they are "legit"? It's not as if some cosmic force will strike a module writer or GM down if there are some additional XP for roleplaying. The entire "get XP for things outside of killing monsters" system is highly fungible as it is.
Also, I think Paizo did just that (provide unearned XP, that is) in the first module to get the party to level six at the end of the first module. The leveling pace of that module was crazy, especially the first three levels. It felt like the party did level every second session before entering the Gray Garrison.
Alleran |
It's not as if some cosmic force will strike a module writer or GM down if there are some additional XP for roleplaying.
Of course not. That would be silly.
It's actually a group of secret police agents who break down your door in the middle of the night to drag you off to a re-education center in Seattle.
Sebastian Hirsch |
Daethor wrote:But remember, it's very hard to physically fit the amount of encounters necessary to reach 20th level without sacrificing story elements. Mythic helps you level faster and thus allows you to reach these top tiers in the space confines of the AP.Quite honestly, I find the "there aren't enough XP!" argument absurd. If there aren't enough XP, then provide them. Who cares if they are "legit"? It's not as if some cosmic force will strike a module writer or GM down if there are some additional XP for roleplaying. The entire "get XP for things outside of killing monsters" system is highly fungible as it is.
Also, I think Paizo did just that (provide unearned XP, that is) in the first module to get the party to level six at the end of the first module. The leveling pace of that module was crazy, especially the first three levels. It felt like the party did level every second session before entering the Gray Garrison.
To be blunt, I found all the leveling in the first adventure a bit disturbing, and my players didn’t like it either.
In retrospect, starting at level 4 would have been preferable. The encounters in the first adventure are easily modified (just add some hd, or more fiendish vermin).
The fact, that I create the characters with my players using Hero Lab is certainly a factor here^^
Sebastian Hirsch |
I think this adventure path is certainly one of the better ones, and while I applaud the fact, that players advance all the way to level 20 and Tier 10, I am not entirely certain that the players aren’t too powerful.
The campaign traits are frankly stronger than mythic feats, and acts like cleaning the Gray Garrison (My players said, that the idea is insane especially considering the timing) further empower them.
Also it is worth mentioning, that the players will face a lot of evil enemies, quite a lot of them outsiders, abilities like smite evil are very very effective.
So yeah I hope, that this will work out, but I was looking forward to the last adventures of the Kingmaker AP, and they were a pretty big disaster for me as GM.
Lord Snow |
Daethor wrote:But remember, it's very hard to physically fit the amount of encounters necessary to reach 20th level without sacrificing story elements. Mythic helps you level faster and thus allows you to reach these top tiers in the space confines of the AP.Quite honestly, I find the "there aren't enough XP!" argument absurd. If there aren't enough XP, then provide them. Who cares if they are "legit"? It's not as if some cosmic force will strike a module writer or GM down if there are some additional XP for roleplaying. The entire "get XP for things outside of killing monsters" system is highly fungible as it is.
I would, then, refer you to "The Dragon's Demand", a module that did exactly as you suggest here - pump XP rewards for encounters that were not supposed to be challenges or are absurdly easy challenges (something about getting 600 XP for scaling a wall with climb DC 10 and no option for taking damage when failing or something like that). I don't know how the module did as far as profit is concerned (even if I knew, I'm sure the statistic is skewed one way or the other because of the change in PF module format), but in the boards there was some not inconsiderable backlash about that.
So Paizo did give the method a try and it didn't go entirely smoothly. Of course, better execution of the same principle might solve that.Now, me? I'd be pretty happy if XP was dispensed from the game entirely and the APs would be built around the assumption that the GM levels the player when she feels the right time has come, maybe assisted with guidelines provided by the published adventure.
magnuskn |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, XP awards are one of the things I've removed entirely from the game. While keeping individual XP awards them adds a certain factor to the game, where a GM can reward individual players for good RP or something like that, the system has also a large drawback, in that some players will then try to unnecessary stunts or lobby for individual XP for their characters.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Quite honestly, I find the "there aren't enough XP!" argument absurd. If there aren't enough XP, then provide them. Who cares if they are "legit"? It's not as if some cosmic force will strike a module writer or GM down if there are some additional XP for roleplaying. The entire "get XP for things outside of killing monsters" system is highly fungible as it is.
Also, I think Paizo did just that (provide unearned XP, that is) in the first module to get the party to level six at the end of the first module. The leveling pace of that module was crazy, especially the first three levels. It felt like the party did level every second session before entering the Gray Garrison.
We've done that several times before—handed out XP with little or no justification. Who cares? An AWFUL lot more people than you might think. Whenever we've done something like this in the past, the response is almost unanimously negative. People do not like "free XP."
And if we do enough stuff that annoys our customers, they'll stop buying our products, and as it turns out the end game there IS a cosmic force shutting things down.
For the latest example, check out some of the feedback for "The Dragon's Demand."
That said... I do have an idea for the next AP that might allow this in a story way that folks might enjoy that might let us hit higher levels faster. We'll see if that works.
Adjule |
I have to agree with the OP. Out of the 3 APs I have played in (Second Darkness, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Wrath of the Righteous), this one is the most fun, despite my general dislike for fiends.
I was rather surprised at the speed of gaining levels in the first book. We just finished the 2nd book and will be starting the 3rd next week.
Joshua Goudreau |
I do have an idea for the next AP that might allow this in a story way that folks might enjoy that might let us hit higher levels faster. We'll see if that works.
Are you referring to Mummy's Mask or Iron Gods? I am planning on getting both anyway but I'm curious since I am definitely getting IG and may not get MM. However, if there is a scheme to make it a 1-20 AP, I'm willing to take a closer look.
As far as the leveling in this campaign goes, the first few levels do come on pretty quickly. I added a prelude and dropped some of the undercity encounters so everything smoothed out a little. I level by fiat anyway, but the prelude didn't make it seem rushed.
Dragon's Demand did have some awkward XP awards but the leveling didn't seem rushed the way the beginning of The Worldwound Incursion does. That being said, both are fantastic adventures and I am very glad I have purchased and are running both. Seriously, I run two games and these are the adventures we are currently working through.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
James Jacobs wrote:I do have an idea for the next AP that might allow this in a story way that folks might enjoy that might let us hit higher levels faster. We'll see if that works.Are you referring to Mummy's Mask or Iron Gods? I am planning on getting both anyway but I'm curious since I am definitely getting IG and may not get MM. However, if there is a scheme to make it a 1-20 AP, I'm willing to take a closer look.
As far as the leveling in this campaign goes, the first few levels do come on pretty quickly. I added a prelude and dropped some of the undercity encounters so everything smoothed out a little. I level by fiat anyway, but the prelude didn't make it seem rushed.
Dragon's Demand did have some awkward XP awards but the leveling didn't seem rushed the way the beginning of The Worldwound Incursion does. That being said, both are fantastic adventures and I am very glad I have purchased and are running both. Seriously, I run two games and these are the adventures we are currently working through.
I'm not referring to either of them. It's an AP I'm planning for a later date.
Soluzar |
Ya.. I thought this was a joke or 'leading' thread too.
It was a pretty good story though, but it should have been longer. There was way too much for only 6 books. Or too much time on events that don't matter much.
If only the rules worked...
I have to agree. It seems like the AP was written before the Mythic rules were complete.
The whole AP was a missed opportunity...it's just a mess.
magnuskn |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, looking back on it after having GM'ed it, the story had its share of problems which were not so visible by just reading it, as I outlined in my review of the AP. The real problem was, of course, the mythic rules.