Anyone got thoughts on artifact creation? Asking mainly from a DM / NPC perspective not a player one.

[Liam Warner]

I've been looking at the artifacts floating around for this game (curiosity more than anything else) and I've noticed that several NPC mortals e.g. Xin have created multiple major and minor artifacts yet the only way I know for PC's to make one is the mythic rules that require 2 path abilities (out of a potential 10) and 3 for a major. Yet Xin (to reuse that example) is not mythic in the rules as written yet he's made multiple major and minor artifacts over the course of his career.

On the other hand there's reference in the AP to him not having sufficient power after making the Sihedron to empower his mightiest creation without draining power from it then again he doesn't seem t do so yet still empowers the cloackward tyrant (or whatever its called).

So I'm curious how other people have justified/explained their NPC's making artifacts in their games as 3 path abilities seems out of reach for most and even the mythic beings don't follow their rules.

Is it:

1) Weaker magic now even the mightest mages can't equal the apprentices of yesteryear because of lower magical levels.
2) Lost knowledge due to Cataclysm X and given time/recoverd ruins (plot hook) they could rediscover the way to make minor artifacts (or major with a sacrifice of some sort).
3) Something else?

Personally I used to treat it as as a mixture of 1 and 2. That is major artifacts could only be made by a deity and minor could still be made by people today if they recovered the knowledge. However since here we have cannon major artifacts made by "mortals" I need to revise my theories.

Right now I'm leaning to a mixture of 1 and 2. That is the trick of making minor artifacts is knowledge based so you need a level requirement of some kind and the techniques to build them. Which lets me use them as a plot hook too if I want to introduce a minor artifact at higher levels it can be found or everyone can be racing to retrieve the lost techniques of making one I don't think will unbalance the system e.g. a timeglass.

A major one I'm thinking I can justify as being only makeable with the power of the greatest spellcasters or weakest demi-gods i.e mythic heroes. Since the PC's wont become mythic except in a game hopefully designed for that power I can redesign the legndary artifact so that 1 tier lets you do something, 2 tiers lets you build minor artifacts nad 3 major. Its still a major investment and I can keep the most powerful things still under control because its not just precious gems and rare metals you need to make an artifact its the blood of a Thanotic Titan or fire harvested from a lost part of the demiplane of fire with unique hazards and other rare elements so they can only build a small amount of them over a long period of downtime.

So what do others think?

[Indagare]

Honestly, I don't think being able to create multiple copies of even minor artifacts is a good idea. To me, an artifact or relic ought to be unique: it serves a specific purpose. Replicating such things shouldn't be possible (though, obviously, weaker versions or copies should be).

If you really want a lot of a particular artifact around, just turn it into a major magical item - something that's hard to create (level 15 up) but not impossible. This lets you have such items available for bulk distribution but keeps unique items unique.

[Liam Warner]

Indagare wrote:

Honestly, I don't think being able to create multiple copies of even minor artifacts is a good idea. To me, an artifact or relic ought to be unique: it serves a specific purpose. Replicating such things shouldn't be possible (though, obviously, weaker versions or copies should be).

If you really want a lot of a particular artifact around, just turn it into a major magical item - something that's hard to create (level 15 up) but not impossible. This lets you have such items available for bulk distribution but keeps unique items unique.

Except minor artifacts aren't meant to be unique, rare yes but not unique and if its a mythic game you theoretically can already create 3 major artifacts if you don't mind wrecking your character. Which doesn't address as I said statted NPCS who have made multiple artifacts in cannon and I need to work out a way to explain that while still retaining a way to limit player access.

[Goth Guru]

There are many ways to explain artifacts.
Natural: Sunstones radiate true sunlight till shattered through their core. A clear crystal must be exposed to direct sunlight every day for one year to become a sunstone. There is no shortcut or feat that will let you get around this.
Divine Gift: A Pandora's Box will generate a mythological monster to attack anyone who looks inside. You cannot make one. You can only pray for one and hope.
Crafter's crit: If a fumble creates a cursed item, a natural 20 may result in an artifact. Possibly not the one you wanted.
Return To Sender: If you toss a portable hole in an orb of oblivion, all the very bad things tossed into such orbs, that survived, will be puked back out. Since you get part of Kyuss the wormlord, and lots of items that were tossed for good reason, I would not recommend this. :]

[Liam Warner]

None of which helps me explain to PC X why his myhtic witch statted identically to Baba Yaga can't make one minor artifact while shes churning out multiple major ones. I like having explanations for why things are beyond just thats the rule.

[Goth Guru]

Baba Yaga is an immortal hag. First, ask where these "Stats" come from. Then, ask them to write up the artifacts they want to create. If they want to create an artifact that already exists, tear up the paper. You cannot copy Thor's hammer because it was made by a god. The mighty sword in Lord of the Rings was reforged from broken. They couldn't have just made a new one.
What I'm trying to tell you, is as a GM, you have veto power. You have Veto power over spell research, artifacts, allowed races, character classes, and all magic items made.
You can also add drawbacks. The sunstone must be handled with heat resistant gauntlets, or their hand gets burned off. Many artifacts will kill anyone of the wrong alignment, race, or class who touches it.

[Liam Warner]

Dont think I'm explaining myself well I know I can always say no buy I want to be able to provide an ingame reason for that no as well as an out of game for balance one.

Reign of winter stats Baba Yaga as a level 20 witch, mythic rank 10 being and suggests killing her as a possible way to continue the adventure. So it is possible for a PC (talking theoretically here don't have an actual one currently but when.work allows I hope to run a wrath of the righteous game which includes mythic rules) to duplicate most of her stats and the few that they can't e.g queen.of the witchs.have nothing to do with item creation.

[Ipslore the Red]

Not unless they've lived as long as she has and spent as much time as she has researching how to make artifacts.

Also, I am doubtful that your PC is identical to Baba Yaga. One of Baba Yaga's qualities is that she is a perfect specimen of humanity with, among other things, a 32-point buy. It's also a story excuse to have her be capable of artifact creation.

[Dragonamedrake]

Good lord people. He is asking for a RP reason for why its hard to create Major/Minor Artifacts and yet still explains why certain NPC's can create them.

I would say you have several options.

1) Divine/Abysal/Infernal help - Divine blessing or a pact with the underworld could give you the temporary power to create an artifact. Baba Yaga for instance has the ability to travel between different realms. She could have made a pact with an other-worldly creature gaining the insite/power to create artifacts.

2) Spontanious - I know in 3.5 there was always the small %chance that an item would be created as a cursed item or as an artifact. Call it a fluke or a rare alignment of different circumstances that created said item. This can explain how a single item was created. It doesn't help so much with NPC's that have created several though... thats a little too unlikely.

3) Forgotten rites - As you already stated. It could be a lost art that could be re-discovered.

I personally rule that there has to be a soul involved. This usually means you have to have help from either a divine source or a Other-Worldly scource. A Deity can send the soul of a follower who wishes to return to the material plane in order to do good... even if it is as a weapon. A demon/devil can invest a soul he has taken in return for your soul upon death... or any other number of demonic deals you can think up. An abomination from a plane of chaos might forge a soul from the chaos and embue it into the item... but warping the purpose in the process to seed its agenda. Or you could find an old rite that requires you to sacrifice a person upon creation of the item. (Stabing the victim through the midsection when tempering the blade sorta stuff).

Suffice to say... Its not an easy task. Most are evil or risky. And unless the DM (You) are into it then the task can be all but impossible for even the most powerful of casters and crafters. Thats how I do it anyways.

[Meat]

I assume you mean something other than... sure you can make an artifact... but your character isn't going to have any free time to do this whole "adventuring" thing he/she has come to love and enjoy... but by all means spend years/decades/centuries(for the dwarves and elves out there) crafting away for the slim chance you get a workable artifact against the slightly better chance you create something that just might eat you/drain your immortal soul/clone your mother-in-law a million times over and invite them all over to tea.

[Liam Warner]

Dragonamedrake wrote:

Good lord people. He is asking for a RP reason for why its hard to create Major/Minor Artifacts and yet still explains why certain NPC's can create them.

I would say you have several options.

1) Divine/Abysal/Infernal help - Divine blessing or a pact with the underworld could give you the temporary power to create an artifact. Baba Yaga for instance has the ability to travel between different realms. She could have made a pact with an other-worldly creature gaining the insite/power to create artifacts.

2) Spontanious - I know in 3.5 there was always the small %chance that an item would be created as a cursed item or as an artifact. Call it a fluke or a rare alignment of different circumstances that created said item. This can explain how a single item was created. It doesn't help so much with NPC's that have created several though... thats a little too unlikely.

3) Forgotten rites - As you already stated. It could be a lost art that could be re-discovered.

I personally rule that there has to be a soul involved. This usually means you have to have help from either a divine source or a Other-Worldly scource. A Deity can send the soul of a follower who wishes to return to the material plane in order to do good... even if it is as a weapon. A demon/devil can invest a soul he has taken in return for your soul upon death... or any other number of demonic deals you can think up. An abomination from a plane of chaos might forge a soul from the chaos and embue it into the item... but warping the purpose in the process to seed its agenda. Or you could find an old rite that requires you to sacrifice a person upon creation of the item. (Stabing the victim through the midsection when tempering the blade sorta stuff).

Suffice to say... Its not an easy task. Most are evil or risky. And unless the DM (You) are into it then the task can be all but impossible for even the most powerful of casters and crafters. Thats how I do it anyways.

Thank you I was really starting to wonder if what I was posting was what I thought I was posting. I know some people who'd be reaching for the magic jar spell with the soul reason but you've given me some ideas. Like I said mythic rules specifically allow players to use up 9 path abilities to make 3 major artifacts so trying to relate that to beings like Baba Yaga who use all 10 on other things but produce dozens of unique major and mi.or artifacts is why I want an explanation to give them.

Also bang you can use a32 point buy oh look your a perfect specimen of humanity. Not to mention I normally use 4d6 drop the lowest and roll 3 sets of stats picking the best not point buy and for WOTR I was considering 2d6+6 roll 3 sets and pick the best. Grumble grumble I start to see Baba Yaga's point of view.

[Goth Guru]

It kind of explains why Baba Yaga was cursed to help any snot nosed kid who asks for her help. There are some stories that mention that curse.

[Liam Warner]

Goth Guru wrote:

It kind of explains why Baba Yaga was cursed to help any snot nosed kid who asks for her help. There are some stories that mention that curse.

How so?