Scouting ahead can offer some valuable information on what your party should expect to deal with. There are however many scenarios in which the flavor text read upon entering a new area starts some type of timer. This timer might be a man boiling to death in a pot, an evil cultist about to sacrifice an NPC during a ritual or something to that effect. If a party has someone scouting ahead and the timer starts when that PC enters the space (even if undetected) then it is very difficult to complete the objective in time.
How in your experience have you seen DMs or as a DM yourself reward the risk of scouting ahead with out punishing the party by starting these timers?
Or conversely so you not see this as an issue and rather just another risk of scouting ahead.
In my experience, this issue comes up enough to discourage parties from having their sneaky types look ahead.
|
Actually, I take that back. My main character, a Rogue with a Ring of Invisibility, often offers to be the scout (it's just been so long since I've played him I'd forgotten!). During [redacted] we were tasked with stealing a chest of gold. I was giddy with excitement. How often is the Rogue told to break in somewhere, disarm the trap, and steal the loot? So I performed my job, made all my rolls, never got caught, and we were done in like 15 minutes. Problem was, the chest wasn't the real target, and we were supposed to trigger the trap.
My Rogue broke the scenario, and we eventually found out we were penalized because of it.
Not sure where this all fits in with your OP, but figured I'd mention it anyways. The GM ran the scenario as written. It's not like he could just tell my Rogue that I was supposed to fail.
Nefreet,
You seem to have felt some of the frustration I am feeling. My question would be what should a DM do in a situation like this. I think in your situation, as a DM I would endeavor to find a way around having you fail a scenario because your character was GREAT at what it does. Whether that be find a way to creatively drop clues or something along those lines.
How would/should a DM handle a situation like this?
How RAW are we required to be?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
I try to reward people who scout briefly ahead whenever possible. If the event would start a timer, I try to make it so that the timer would give the party enough time to briefly plan and enter the room. People who scout WAY ahead tend to end up finding themselves in more trouble, though.
|
PFS Scenarios dont really take into account sneaking ahead. In fact those with flipmats pretty much say 'Party starts here'. Thats basically a block on the sneaking ahead.
I have no issue with it per se, but I do know of several people who will be saying OOC 'Dont split the party' when the character is basically doing what the character is designed to do.
|
I have only limited experience so far, but from I gathered the scenarios are designed around the party moving around as a whole. Scouting ahead even at a short distance gets you into some pretty hairy situations because the encounters seem to be 'waiting for the party' instead of doing their own thing according to their own schedule.
There is a good reason behind this, it's very hard to follow everything happening around as a GM if you have to keep 7-8 encounters in your head, each with their own timetables and schedules and stats. Doing it the way its done now is more cinematic - let's not kid ourselves, the system is designed to cater to needs of diverse groups, players and GMs. It has to be simple and straightforward, otherwise we'd be elbow deep in conundrums.
If someone does scout ahead and they're doing it well, try to add some little hooks into your storytelling to let them know about some parts they might be missing. If they chose to ignore those, fine, they had a choice.
It might be something as simple as hearing a human whimper from a corridor to the side (a prisoner at the end of its strength), or some strange markings around the trap pointing out to a different use of it, or if your party just stealthed past an important encounter you could have one of the goons go out to head to the toilet and the party basically catches him flat-footed and out of reach of his friends - in a way you just rewarded the party by splitting what would otherwise be a difficult encounter into two smaller ones which are not nearly as difficult. This I feel is a pretty good reward for a well executed scout ahead maneuver.
Scouting ahead does carry a huge risk with it, and scout can often end up dead and the party split - but if it's done well it definitely deserves a reward instead of a penalty.
Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
|
Scouting ahead can offer some valuable information on what your party should expect to deal with. There are however many scenarios in which the flavor text read upon entering a new area starts some type of timer. This timer might be a man boiling to death in a pot, an evil cultist about to sacrifice an NPC during a ritual or something to that effect. If a party has someone scouting ahead and the timer starts when that PC enters the space (even if undetected) then it is very difficult to complete the objective in time.
How in your experience have you seen DMs or as a DM yourself reward the risk of scouting ahead with out punishing the party by starting these timers?
Or conversely so you not see this as an issue and rather just another risk of scouting ahead.
In my experience, this issue comes up enough to discourage parties from having their sneaky types look ahead.
I don't think the scenario should penalize scouting. I've seen the 'timer' format done well and for scouting to be a benefit (the timer starts when the PCs start the encounter, but the events only trigger when the villain realises this - a decent scout who sneaks in and disables the alarms means the party gets the drop on him).
If I needed to adjudicate scouting on a more ad hoc basis, I'd be inclined to give the scout some advantage - allow them to start ahead of the party (on the map) and in stealth, perhaps.
|
|
I really do like scouters both as a GM and a Player. Timers in most of the scenarios I have played do not activate until the group is noticed of something happens, or if there is a timer on the scenario, they will have an idea that "time is important". So unless the scenario is timed, I do not start a timer until they are noticed.
If the rogue is good enough, he could scout out the entire dungeon before reporting back.
I then let him use an INT check or Prestidigitation to report or display the monsters for people to do knowledge checks on.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone scouting ahead very often will cause issues. The main reason - you just left the scripted adventure and now it is up to the GM to improvise how your actions will work.
I try my best to adjudicate such a situation in a fair manner. This includes aspects about what is the intention, motivation, triggers, etc.
This means the reward can be big. Starting from avoiding an ambush, getting the surprise round up to countering the BBEG and making him a pushover.
But there are risks as well. Sooner or later you will trigger an encounter that is too tough to fight on your own. Depending on situation this can be an auto kill.
It is this why I dislike players scouting ahead. It is a little bit like Russian Roulette. 5 out of 6 time you might get away with it - but eventually your luck will run out.
So the first question is - do you accept the risk. Life isn't fair. Scouting means more danger than reward.
The second question is your GM. Is he okay with it to kill you if you get it wrong or will be feel forced to bend over keep you alive no matter what.
Don't get me wrong - I will give a scout the chance to run if it makes sense. But sometimes it doesn't make sense - or you might just be overcome by a compulsion. Scout ahead to find some harpies - this can become very nasty. Fall into a trap - and the rest of the group might not even know.
The third question is - is the rest of the table okay with it. Scouting ahead means you play but everyone else only watches. It also can mean you scout ahead and get killed and the group feels they need to pay their part to get you raised.
I try my best to adjudicate a situation in a sensible manner and to ensure everyone at the table has fun - this includes the person who likes to scout ahead. But I have run too many scenarios that I know too many situations in which it is akin to suicide.
But I admit I'm guilty myself of scouting ahead - albeit from safety. Arcane Eye gives you most of the rewards while avoiding most of the downsides.
|
Actually, I take that back. My main character, a Rogue with a Ring of Invisibility, often offers to be the scout (it's just been so long since I've played him I'd forgotten!). During [redacted] we were tasked with stealing a chest of gold. I was giddy with excitement. How often is the Rogue told to break in somewhere, disarm the trap, and steal the loot? So I performed my job, made all my rolls, never got caught, and we were done in like 15 minutes. Problem was, the chest wasn't the real target, and we were supposed to trigger the trap.
My Rogue broke the scenario, and we eventually found out we were penalized because of it.
Not sure where this all fits in with your OP, but figured I'd mention it anyways. The GM ran the scenario as written. It's not like he could just tell my Rogue that I was supposed to fail.
Man, I feel your pain. I failed the secondary during my rogue's last 5-9 scenario before she hit 10 because she actually did what she was supposed to. My character was on point and found and disabled a pit trap that the secondary success condition happened to be at the bottom of. Apparently there was also another pit we could have jumped into that would have led to it, but it seemed like a bad idea to just randomly hurl ourselves into a spiked pit.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Players actually being engaged in the scenario, thinking strategically, and going out-of-box should ALWAYS be rewarded.
For timers? I'd start it, but with a little more prep: for example, the victim isn't bound to the altar, but is struggling as he's being led up to it.
For missing stuff? This is a big issue with scrying and teleport. I'd probably either give hints that they should check out the areas they bypassed (maybe a history check to remember tales of hidden wealth here, or a wisdom check for a "nagging feeling"), OR I'd just have the treasure be in the final area. There's just no good reason why players who play "smart" should be penalized for it.
I know as a player of a diviner I've been at tables where I scouted with an arcane eye, or scryed, or whatever, and the GM basically said "well, if you do that, you'll bypass stuff", leading to the table deciding to deliberately NOT do the tactical thing (like teleporting ahead to a safe location further in), and instead to slog through dangers... THAT is metagaming of the worst sort ("let's farm stuff"). Better for the GM to go with it, and be creative about rewarding the players appropriately.
Probably the #1 competency as a GM is being able to improvise when players eschew the linearity of a scenario (and let's admit it, PFS scenarios as a whole are very linear).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The third question is - is the rest of the table okay with it. Scouting ahead means you play but everyone else only watches. It also can mean you scout ahead and get killed and the group feels they need to pay their part to get you raised.
This + as much as I can give. This is the thing that makes it hard for me personally to deal with people that want to scout ahead. Juggling the encounters and keeping all of the not scouts from being bored is strenuous to say the least, and if it happens during the later end of a con or some other big event can lead to slip-ups and mistakes that may get the party killed unfairly.
~NPEH
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I generally warn against it.
Scouting ahead and stealthing is very, very hard when the terrain and conditions have not been cherry picked for you. If the module involves an NPC stealthing, usually the area has been altered specifically for them.
Problem 1: Concealment. Stealth has two conditions that both need to be met. You need to be unobserved, AND you need cover or concealment. Most dungeons don't come with crevasses big enough to hide a medium creature in and very rarely does a creature spend any time in lighting conditions where it can't see:
Meeting concealment: Dwaves, kobolds, orcs, and everything else in golarion that can see in the dark (which is just about everything else in golarion) will spot you moving through the "shadows" or what you think is a dark cave. To you, its pitch black. To them, its rigley's field and the lights are on. Similarly elves will have starlight or better and humans will have normal or bright light and A creature can't use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover..
Problem 2 Your light source: If you don't have dark vision you're not stealthing anywhere. It doesn't matter if you have a +38 stealth score, if you are carrying a torch in a cavern there is no way anything is going to miss the fact that 30 feet of normally dark cavern has suddenl lit up. They might not see you, but they're going to hide themselves and then ready actions to shoot the first thing they see.
Problem 3: I'm so lonely, all on my own.... If your party is close enough to you to help you if things go wrong they're close enough for the monsters to hear. If they're further back there's a good chance that something stealthier than you is going to eat you before they get there. Remember that the party is moving forward at x amount of speed per round so if you want to run back to them when you see the goblin hoards you need to leave enough room so that they don't run into you and the goblins while you're moving along.
Problem 4: Mother may I. Perception and stealth are one of those subjective things where every DM does them differently. A player may have their character walk into a room expecting o get a reactive perception check while the dm thinks you need to announce that you're looking. You may think you can stealth somewhere and the DM says you're autospotted. The player and the dm usually need to work together to synch up the rules and expectations...but that usually happens over a campaign. By the time you know something is out of synch you're monster chow. I've had many dm's just flat out deny perception rolls unless you announce them.
problem 5) the party. This is a group game. Scouting is usually a solo activity. The other people at the table are going to get bored if this takes too long. If the DM is having you roll for ever 60 feet of movement its going to eat into your other time
problem 6: Doors. There's lots of them, no ones going to miss one opening and closing.
|
|
Problem 1 can be overcome relatively easily by the ninja class (see also: better than rogues at everything). Problem 2 can be taken care of by playing a race with darkvision. Problem 3... well, if they have see invisibility you're already screwed anyway. As for Problem 6, gloves of recon can help with that. Once you know if the door is being watched or not, you can open it just enough to slip through and keep moving.
|
|
Problem 1 can be overcome relatively easily by the ninja class (see also: better than rogues at everything).
Vanishing trick only works for 1 round per level. Thats not nearly enough time to scout.
Problem 2 can be taken care of by playing a race with darkvision.
Yes, but many players seem to think they can scout around with a torch and don't take one of those races. Or they go human because rogues are a little feat hungry.
Problem 3... well, if they have see invisibility you're already screwed anyway.
Or scent, blind sense, blind sight,scent, tremor sense, scent, ....
As for Problem 6, gloves of recon can help with that. Once you know if the door is being watched or not, you can open it just enough to slip through and keep moving.
Those are pretty handy. I didnt know they were THAT cheap...
|
When I ran Shadow's Last Stand pt 1, my sister's magus scouted ahead...
down the hallway with a pair of stealthed rogues waiting for her. Worse, they used their potions of invisibility and she got in the middle of them... pair of sneak attacks! Could have killed her, but decided since she was on her own, they dealt non-lethal damage and dragged her over to Hagla's room as another hostage and also initiated the prisoners in the gallows; the magus was bound and gagged behind it.
The party, however, roleplayed this excellently and did not metagame that something bad happened other than their sneaky magus didn't return after 5 minutes.
They steamrolled through the rogues (since they already popped their invisibility) and went on to fight the hobgoblin leader in a very interesting melee that was made much easier when the Hellknight in training sundered the gallows, saving all of the prisoners. Telfyr freed the magus with his rope trick when a channel went through, and she managed to get 1 attack in a tetori-grappled Hagla before the Hellknight scythe critted the BBEG, ending the battle.
The hard part in something like this is the isolation of players when someone scouts ahead. My story happened to involve the worst case scenario of the scouter getting captured so that player sorta just sat there for a little bit. However, any strategies you may have for handling a player who's PC died early on may find use.
|
|
I normally scout ahead while playing my druid. I spend my days wildshaped into an earth elemental and I generally scout ahead in any area in which I can earth glide(frequently it turns out). I try not to take it too far, giving the numbers and positions of enemies(generally speaking to my allies through telepathic bond), before returning to my allies and deciding on a course of action. The biggest problem I've seen with players scouting ahead is when those players decide to try to tackle encounters alone and take the fun away from other players, who just sit around bored.
I have built my character to cast buffs on allies and impact, not destroy, encounters(though there is always the backup plan of turning into a celestial allosaurus and bringing the pain). Spring attack fighting with earthglide keeps me amused enough. Large Earth elemental wielding a large earthbreaker at the moment.
|
|
Ah. I didnt realize you were meaning that spell specifically. If you play with someone who has that prepped often enough, then yea, id say you have found yourself a solid tactic.
Id probably give the bad guys a Perception check to notice you when you pop up through the floor to see, but with bad guys in this game having Perception scores as low as they tend to, they likely wouldnt make it anyway. :P
Developer
|
To me, scouting ahead falls into the same category as talking my way past every combat; it's a creative solution, which is something GMs are encouraged to reward. However, like any creative solution, the more it's used, the less creative it feels, and the less I'm likely to reward it in a given scenario.
I have a bard who prides himself on making friends with as many non-mindless creatures as possible, but as a player I recognize that my shutting down every encounter with Bluff and Diplomacy wouldn't be terribly fun for the other players; however, my shutting down one encounter with Bluff and Diplomacy still leaves enough opportunity for other characters to have some time in the spotlight, and the GM is usually open to my creative "diplomancy." If, however, I tried to shut down a second encounter in the same way, it probably* wouldn't be terribly amusing for anyone.
Same sort of thing goes for scouting. Doing a quick splash of scouting here and there is great, and I'm happy to reward it. If the scout gets caught, then the scout suffers the consequences, but most scouting characters accept these possibilities when they set out to look ahead. To keep the other players from getting bored, I streamline how I do scouting as a GM, and I often ask for the group's permission before I do it as a player.
As for the PFS standard of plopping characters on a Flip-Mat and saying "here you go," I would allow a scouting character to get a preview beforehand. The example I'm thinking of involves wandering through a sewer and then arriving at a location on a sewer-themed Flip-Mat.
|
|
Man, I feel your pain. I failed the secondary during my rogue's last 5-9 scenario before she hit 10 because she actually did what she was supposed to. My character was on point and found and disabled a pit trap that the secondary success condition happened to be at the bottom of. Apparently there was also another pit we could have jumped into that would have led to it, but it seemed like a bad idea to just randomly hurl ourselves into a spiked pit.
Well, you should have been able to peak into the pit after you had disabled the trap. After all, there should still be a door, and the pit itself. Of course, you probably needed to ask, which is fair.
But, had you looked, you should have been given the chance to still succeed.
|
|
I'm a bit of a strict simulationist in this kind of situation. I run the character on their own, going so far as to move away from the table and only coming back when the scout does -- or when I feel I need to move the spotlight back to the rest of the party :)
I don't reward or punish these actions explicitly. I have the bad guys react as they would given the situation. If the scout succeeds in getting information and reporting back, then they get their reward. If the scout gets spotted, then the bad guys take appropriate actions. The scout knew the assignment was dangerous when he volunteered for it.
As far as timers go, there's two kinds to worry about: simulation timers (the bad guys will be ready to go in two days and leave at that time unless the party stops them) and dramatic timers (the hostage is in stasis until the party shows up, then the 6-round timer to save him starts, because that makes the story more exciting).
Personally, I prefer the former. It makes my life as a GM much simpler. However, if a scout pops in on the latter, then the timer is probably going to start at that point because I don't have any guidance in the scenario about what was happening earlier. As I say that, however, I feel like that's not really fair to the players. Perhaps the best way to handle it is to have the scout show up just when they're getting started on the hostage (or whatever) to give the scout time to return to the party and let them know they need to hurry if they're going to be heroic. If there's encounters between them and the hostage that the scout bypassed somehow, then you can still have them show up just in the nick of time and start the dramatic timer at that point -- unless they dawdle.
If the scout tries to rescue the hostage solo, well, you just run that encounter for him and see how it goes. It may be best to be a live lion, and fortune may favor the bold, but that doesn't mean the dice are going to agree with you.
|
|
If players are worried about missing stuff then nothing stops them going after anything they missed after dealing with the primary mission goal. After all part of their mission is to explore (and liberate anything interesting from their otherwise lawful owners given the Society's decidedly equivocal attitude towards individual property rights).
This is precisely how my group tried to deal with a season 5 scenario. We cleared some rooms, and were prepared to go back to take the time to gather information and things now that it wasn't as dangerous to do that, but a timer started, and we could not go back.
So yes, there is -not- nothing stopping them from going after anything they missed. I am very frustrated.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
|
When my characters scout they ask the others in the party to follow at an appropriate distance. Appropriate distance is 10 ft for every point of stealth modifier lower they are from the lead character. That way when everyone takes 10 to stealth the DC to perceive each member of the party is the same (from ahead).
Is that too much out of character knowledge? or would PCs be able to tell how much noise each of the colleagues make and space themselves out accordingly?
|
|
[ooc]trying real hard to control the urge to "crab" about being able to Take 10 on stealth,
Generally if you're making a stealth check you are in immediate danger.immediate danger from the task you are attemping does not prevent someone from taking 10 for the task...
"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help."
in fact, you would want to Take 10 when you are afread that you might fail a task...
So for example, a character could use Disable Device and Take 10 to disarm a trap... but not while he is being shot at. And not while he is balancing on a ledge (doing two things at once)...
Looks like you failed your Will save. ;)
|
|
Off-topic, but:
You can take 10 on disarming traps as long as you are not in danger (in combat, swinging from a rope attached to a roc's foot, etc) or distracted (The raging orc horde on the other side of the crevasse shouting and screaming for your blood as they chop down trees to make an impromptu bridge, or the beautiful maiden you're trying to rescue is just so grateful she has to sit in your lap).
You can't take 20 because there's a penalty for failure (the trap may go off).
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
|
|
I would like to point out that if there's no danger from failing, there's no point in taking 10.
Danger from failing does not prevent taking 10.
Is the dart trap currently firing while you're trying to turn it off: can't take 10.
Is the dart trap sitting there waiting to be disabled: can take 10.
--
The ticking bomb I would argue is a threat and prevents taking 10. The trap that'll go off when you open the door, not so much. Obviously your GM gets to decide what counts as a threat/distraction, but consequences for failure do not prevent take 10. The whole point is to avoid potential consequences of failure from a low roll while not threatened/distracted.
--
I feel like I'm repeating myself a bunch but here's a good rule of thumb:
Has initiative been rolled? Can't take 10.
Has initiative not been rolled? Can take 10.
Obviously there are exceptions to the rule of thumb but it serves me pretty well.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
|
By that description alone I would think you could not take 10 disarming a trap.
You can absolutely take 10 on Perception checks to find traps, but disarming is a different matter.
We've had the take 10 rules for almost 15 years, and they haven't changed significantly in that time.
For example, Krusk the barbarian has a Climb skill modifier of +6 (4 ranks, +3 Strength modifier, –1 penalty for wearing studded leather armor). The steep, rocky slope he’s climbing has a Climb DC of 10. With a little care, he can take 10 and succeed automatically. But partway up the slope, a goblin scout begins pelting him with sling stones. Krusk needs to make a Climb check to get up to the goblin, and this time he can’t simply take 10. If his player rolls 4 or higher on 1d20, he succeeds.
That particular example is not in the CRB, but the underlying principles of take 10 have not changed since 3.5.
|
|
For example, Krusk the barbarian has a Climb skill modifier of +6 (4 ranks, +3 Strength modifier, –1 penalty for wearing studded leather armor). The steep, rocky slope he’s climbing has a Climb DC of 10. With a little care, he can take 10 and succeed automatically. But partway up the slope, a goblin scout begins pelting him with sling stones. Krusk needs to make a Climb check to get up to the goblin, and this time he can’t simply take 10. If his player rolls 4 or higher on 1d20, he succeeds.That particular example is not in the CRB, but the underlying principles of take 10 have not changed since 3.5.
One of the things you can dig up a developer post for is that you're supposed to be able to jump a pit, even if the drop would kill you, by taking 10.
The above example however is really, really, really bad for trying to make that point, because when climbing you only fall if you fail by 5 or more, so krusk is in no danger of falling because he can't fall, no matter what the die roll is, do he can take 10.
