Depends on the situation.
If they enter a room in a dungeon that isn't connected to any other room, wipe everything out, and then leave to rest, I let them. If they're close by, I roll random encounters or if another creature is in the area it might track them to their camp and attack them. For the most part I let them kill and hide.
If they do this to an outpost of organized enemies, then the entire place responds. So the fight in the single room usually ends up as a long combat with enemies constantly showing up to attack them. Wave after wave of enemies. They will track the PCs if they are capable and pursue them to the death. If the PCs quickly extract, they will set up defenses to defeat them next time around massing at key locations.
For these reasons I tend to have fewer combats, but they require a nova. If the players don't expend everything they have, chances are they will die.
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The people I play with tend to schedule one combat per session, because combats take so long. And then combats have to be high-CR, otherwise the session wasn't challenging. This does push us towards Nova-style.
I'm not wild about it. When I play a wizard I relish the challenge of pacing myself correctly - using spells to best effect over a whole day.
But basically I'm going to have to GM myself and demonstrate how a multiple encounter per session game can work well.
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Most monsters don't have the ranks of Knowledge (arcana) to recognize a rope trick. How does the troll know that the rope hanging from midair has an extraplanar space at the top?"Well gee there's this suspicious rope hanging out of the air, but since I have no Kn. Arcana ranks obviously it's not really suspicious and I should not investigate it further.""Hey, Mokmak, where'd the adventurers go?"
"Dunno, Makmok, but there's this weird rope hanging in the room as if there's some sort of magic surrounding it."
"Must be a human thing. Just ignore it."
"'Kay."
There really needs to be a spell that creates what looks like a rope trick but is really a bomb. Someone try to climb up and then BOOM! Then, you can have scenarios where the party casts trick rope trick and teleports away (or turns invisible or does one of the many other things PCs can do to disappear). If the kobolds chasing the PCs investigate the magical rope hanging in the air, they trigger the trap.
Unfortunately, if your GM is metagaming enough to have all the monsters know what rope trick is, they'll probably metagame the monsters into knowing when it's a trick rope trick.
On a related note, if the PCs ever get too formulaic, have the NPCs learn. Have a kobold janitor escape and let the next boss know, "They like to open with a Quickened Slow and..."
Won't they be in for a surprise?
How owuld a simple Janitor know what a quickened slow looks like?... Unless that Kobold Janitor is actually a Wizard disguised as a kobold janitor!
To be fair, a wizard would make a pretty good janitor. Unseen servant, disintegrate, planar binding, gust of wind, etc. would all be quite useful for janitoring. And the janitor wizard can take all the trash and make a junk golem with it!
To be fair, a wizard would make a pretty good janitor. Unseen servant, disintegrate, planar binding, gust of wind, etc. would all be quite useful for janitoring. And the janitor wizard can take all the trash and make a junk golem with it!
from this point forward, I'll my janitors will be wizards. :D
To be fair, a wizard would make a pretty good janitor. Unseen servant, disintegrate, planar binding, gust of wind, etc. would all be quite useful for janitoring. And the janitor wizard can take all the trash and make a junk golem with it!
Additionally with unlimited casts of Presdigitation, Mage Hand, and Mend you can make an awesome butler AND janitor!
In fairness, a fighter can fire like a billion arrows in six seconds. There ain't many classes that don't bend the laws of reality. ;D
A fighter can fire 4 arrows from base end BAB, 1 more from rapid shot, 1 more from many shot, another from haste effects. I might have missed some more ways to get more, but its not many. A Zen archer has a few more at top end, but whatever. Lets look at the video of the guy IRL that put 11 arrows into the air before the first one hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI
No I've heard stated that IRL the best people can get is around 5-6th level, some numbers cranked on skill checks ect to "prove this" Now if a 6th level expert can unleash with reasonable accuracy 11 arrows before the first on hits the ground (and most of them fired before the 6 second round was over) Then I don't see anything reality breaking with what top end monk or fighter can do in regards to archery.
How owuld a simple Janitor know what a quickened slow looks like?... Unless that Kobold Janitor is actually a Wizard disguised as a kobold janitor!On a related note, if the PCs ever get too formulaic, have the NPCs learn. Have a kobold janitor escape and let the next boss know, "They like to open with a Quickened Slow and..."
Won't they be in for a surprise?
"And then robed human makes funny real quick move, and boss start moving slowww."
You don't have to understand something to see its effects. ;P
Rinze Wend the Kobold Wizzard?
I vaguely recall it being said somewhere that attacks where 3 or 4 to one for attacks. That is in earlier dnd a fighter/wizard/what have you actually made more attacks a round but do to.combat dodging/footing/etc only one in 3/4 actually had a chance of hitting and was rolled for. As part of that against a creature below CR 1 PCs got a number of attacks equal to their level. So a 10th level fighter swarmed by CR 1/4 creatures could make 10 attacks that round instead of his normal amount. Could explain putting 11 arrows in the air vs a stationary target where no ones trying to cut your head off. Bab +6/+1 vs a stationary target in a safe situation is actually +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+1/+1 or the like.In fairness, a fighter can fire like a billion arrows in six seconds. There ain't many classes that don't bend the laws of reality. ;DA fighter can fire 4 arrows from base end BAB, 1 more from rapid shot, 1 more from many shot, another from haste effects. I might have missed some more ways to get more, but its not many. A Zen archer has a few more at top end, but whatever. Lets look at the video of the guy IRL that put 11 arrows into the air before the first one hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI
No I've heard stated that IRL the best people can get is around 5-6th level, some numbers cranked on skill checks ect to "prove this" Now if a 6th level expert can unleash with reasonable accuracy 11 arrows before the first on hits the ground (and most of them fired before the 6 second round was over) Then I don't see anything reality breaking with what top end monk or fighter can do in regards to archery.
On attacks like archery where you actually count ammo it doesn't translate. Also the edition where you had multiple attacks that didn't "count" was the editions where 1 combat round was 1 minute and 1 "turn" was 10 minutes.
On attacks like archery where you actually count ammo it doesn't translate. Also the edition where you had multiple attacks that didn't "count" was the editions where 1 combat round was 1 minute and 1 "turn" was 10 minutes.I vaguely recall it being said somewhere that attacks where 3 or 4 to one for attacks. That is in earlier dnd a fighter/wizard/what have you actually made more attacks a round but do to.combat dodging/footing/etc only one in 3/4 actually had a chance of hitting and was rolled for. As part of that against a creature below CR 1 PCs got a number of attacks equal to their level. So a 10th level fighter swarmed by CR 1/4 creatures could make 10 attacks that round instead of his normal amount. Could explain putting 11 arrows in the air vs a stationary target where no ones trying to cut your head off. Bab +6/+1 vs a stationary target in a safe situation is actually +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+1/+1 or the like.In fairness, a fighter can fire like a billion arrows in six seconds. There ain't many classes that don't bend the laws of reality. ;DA fighter can fire 4 arrows from base end BAB, 1 more from rapid shot, 1 more from many shot, another from haste effects. I might have missed some more ways to get more, but its not many. A Zen archer has a few more at top end, but whatever. Lets look at the video of the guy IRL that put 11 arrows into the air before the first one hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI
No I've heard stated that IRL the best people can get is around 5-6th level, some numbers cranked on skill checks ect to "prove this" Now if a 6th level expert can unleash with reasonable accuracy 11 arrows before the first on hits the ground (and most of them fired before the 6 second round was over) Then I don't see anything reality breaking with what top end monk or fighter can do in regards to archery.
I miss the days of minute rounds. Combat made so much more sense with the multiple attacks.
I miss the days of minute rounds....On attacks like archery where you actually count ammo it doesn't translate. Also the edition where you had multiple attacks that didn't "count" was the editions where 1 combat round was 1 minute and 1 "turn" was 10 minutes.I vaguely recall it being said somewhere that attacks where 3 or 4 to one for attacks. That is in earlier dnd a fighter/wizard/what have you actually made more attacks a round but do to.combat dodging/footing/etc only one in 3/4 actually had a chance of hitting and was rolled for. As part of that against a creature below CR 1 PCs got a number of attacks equal to their level. So a 10th level fighter swarmed by CR 1/4 creatures could make 10 attacks that round instead of his normal amount. Could explain putting 11 arrows in the air vs a stationary target where no ones trying to cut your head off. Bab +6/+1 vs a stationary target in a safe situation is actually +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+1/+1 or the like.In fairness, a fighter can fire like a billion arrows in six seconds. There ain't many classes that don't bend the laws of reality. ;DA fighter can fire 4 arrows from base end BAB, 1 more from rapid shot, 1 more from many shot, another from haste effects. I might have missed some more ways to get more, but its not many. A Zen archer has a few more at top end, but whatever. Lets look at the video of the guy IRL that put 11 arrows into the air before the first one hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI
No I've heard stated that IRL the best people can get is around 5-6th level, some numbers cranked on skill checks ect to "prove this" Now if a 6th level expert can unleash with reasonable accuracy 11 arrows before the first on hits the ground (and most of them fired before the 6 second round was over) Then I don't see anything reality breaking with what top end monk or fighter can do in regards to archery.
If what I have heard from grognards is right, wizards also tended to not cast spells as rapidly as a result. Much different now, where a wizard can fire off 100 magic missiles in a single minute.
If what I have heard from grognards is right, wizards also tended to not cast spells as rapidly as a result. Much different now, where a wizard can fire off 100 magic missiles in a single minute.
Well, that's the problem if the 6 second round and 10 rounds per minute instead of the 1 minute round and 10 rounds per 10 minutes. . .
rds/level and minutes/level used to be the same thing; but any system with multiple actions supposed to be happening in 6 seconds is stretching reality pretty far. . . especially 6+ attacks that martials have.
Wizards used to also have casting time on their spells that made them go later in the round than fighters, and 2 handed fighters used to have slow weapon speeds that made them go slower than one handers and 2wf. . .
Or you could do like I do and set the world up around the 30 second day. Have 3-5 encounters per "dungeon" and let the players actually use their limited use abilities. I've played the other way and it gets irritating as a player to not be able to use your abilities because they might be needed later.
Hey, whatever play style works for you works for you.
But one of the reasons so many people believe there is a martial/caster disparity is because martials are designed for the long haul (slow and steady but rarely brilliant) while casters are designed as novas. If you always allow rest you are only letting the casters shine.
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If what I have heard from grognards is right, wizards also tended to not cast spells as rapidly as a result. Much different now, where a wizard can fire off 100 magic missiles in a single minute.Well, that's the problem if the 6 second round and 10 rounds per minute instead of the 1 minute round and 10 rounds per 10 minutes. . .
rds/level and minutes/level used to be the same thing; but any system with multiple actions supposed to be happening in 6 seconds is stretching reality pretty far. . . especially 6+ attacks that martials have.
Wizards used to also have casting time on their spells that made them go later in the round than fighters, and 2 handed fighters used to have slow weapon speeds that made them go slower than one handers and 2wf. . .
Since the combat is 99% abstract, it doesn't matter much. I generally just say 'a round is however long it takes everybody to do their thing'.
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My alchemist is constantly terrified of running out of bombs (in a typical PFS scenario, I usually use about 9 or 10 bombs out of my 11).
I could take Extra Bombs to get around that, but then I have to worry about not taking enough discoveries, such as for dealing with bad guys that are immune to fire, or resistant to whatever else. Especially bad in the Year of the Demon, where demons are immune or resistant to just about everything (or so it seems).
Force Bombs solves all of that.
Or Holy Bombs but that's more of a specific solution for Demons.
Mooks, thugs, minions, jobbers, punks, etc. Even if they take only a single hit to bring down(sort of what 4e tried), that's still a hit the BBEG didn't take. PC's will eventually start blowing nova abilities just to clear the mooks out faster, which is when more mooks appear. Keeping the goons occupied whil trying to take down the BBEG is a challenge in and of itself.
Also, a well-placed illusory double of the PC's target is good for soaking up some combat resources.
Utilize intelligent enemies; enemies who have the good sense to fall back and retreat, who stalk the party, and wait for cover of darkness(camping/sleeping) to attack. Even a decently prepared party needs a round or so to wake up and equip, which is a solid round of unabridged attacking the baddies can work with.
I see the 5-minute adventure day as a symptom of a stagnant encounters. Shake things up, make them spend more resources just to set up camp in the first place(tiny hut spells, alarms, etc). When used correctly, the party will often times prefer to keep going instead of camping, since camping leaves them exposed and defenseless. Sometimes it's just easier to push ahead and finish the adventure.
In short, treat your baddies like adventurers; have them make Perception checks when the players enter an area, have them plan ambushes,
I like the idea of placing a few easier encounters up front and making it clear to the players that they are wasting their spells by going Nova on those. Going Nova is fine when the Bebilith took out both of your front liner in one round. It should be expected even. Going Nova all the time could be a signal that there is a lack in challenge variety.
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This is highly annoying. Halfway through adventures, characters always think they can rest and regain everything. I often don't track food and other supplies like that, but when they suggest something like that, I wish I had.
Most prewritten adventures, if read carefully, contain mechanisms for disrupting rest periods. Anything at all that would disrupt a full 8 hours can be used.
My favorite incident was in a small dungeon. The players actually got through only the first room and expended a lot of resources. They wanted to rest the night in that room...in a dungeon that had only been explored in one room...they thought it was within their rights.
It became within my right to attack them once the fire was lit and food began cooking.
My current group is mostly new. I'm running Kingmaker on them and up till now every encounter has made most sense as a 15 minute work day.
Then it's time for Troll dungeon.
They blew a lot of high level spells on the first two (trash) encounters. They try to soldier through a bit and on the third to last encounter (Two connecting rooms, one with big boss one with medium boss) they decide that when combat is over they'll leave and recover spells so that everything will be easy next day.
At that point I could have either let them go or had the last two bosses say hi. So I had the medium boss walk out there mid combat and roar loudly before charging in. 3 rounds later the bog boss comes to investigate.
Hopefully I made my point about not wasting high level spells on trash and treating dungeons as living entities. If not then next time I'll have the dungeon restock everyday.
Also next Big Bad is Vordecai the lich. Hope they decide to handle him quickly because I decided that if they work towards the goal of getting to him a sufficient amount a day, nothing will change in the encounters. If they decide to 15 minute work day then Vordecai will make use of his free time to make the encounters leading to him bigger and badder.
I just thought of a simple, purely mechanical, and reasonable way to make novas less appealing to the players. The first encounter of every day gives xp = (cr-2)xp, second gives xp = (cr-1)xp after that third and fourth give normal xp fifth + give (cr+1)xp. This makes sense because you learn more when you need to compensate for unideal situations, and it mechanically rewards players for pushing themselves, and penalizes players who nova. Just to clarify mecanically if the party is level 1 and the encounter is cr 2 it gives xp as a cr 1/2 encounter. If the fifth encounter that day is cr 1 it gives xp as a cr 2 encounter, as they were already exausted and wounded making the encounter harder and they tried new things to compensate for the unexpected circumstances.
If the PCs encounter a monster while sleeping it awards xp as if it were encountered the day before, but also counts as an encounter towards the next day's count. This is because they begin the day with all the penalities of having fought, but fight the fight without any of the advantages of having rested.
To be fair, a wizard would make a pretty good janitor. Unseen servant, disintegrate, planar binding, gust of wind, etc. would all be quite useful for janitoring. And the janitor wizard can take all the trash and make a junk golem with it!Additionally with unlimited casts of Presdigitation, Mage Hand, and Mend you can make an awesome butler AND janitor!
PCs: This isn't realistic. Why would a mighty wizard become a lowly janitor?
GM: Ehh, it's a rough economy right now and sometimes you just gotta take the jobs that are available, especially when you're facing a mountain of student loan debt from getting your wizarding degree.
My sessions rarely have more than one combat so it's pretty much always been "nova situations, but then I make it hard enough that they're expecting to blow all their spells anyway.
I like putting the MacGuffin on a timer.
You'd be surprised how much pressure can be put on a group with that simple trick.
"In 24 hours, this area will flood."
"A horde of Orcs is on its way towards this cairn. You don't want to be caught inside when they show up."
"I'd say she has no more than a week to live. Better get back with that antidote quick."
"He hangs at dawn. That's how long you have to find this so-called evidence."
Or whatever, really. Just light a fire under the party. Let them sort out the rest.
I like putting the MacGuffin on a timer.
You'd be surprised how much pressure can be put on a group with that simple trick.
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Seconded. An adventure I ran a while ago was already somewhat nova-proofed by a non-magic/nascent magic campaign setting (i.e. they're the ones "rediscovering magic"), but had secondary insurance in that they were investigating an underground keep barely held together by an ersatz genius loci. Even if they had a rope trick, the place would have been buried within a day or so.
An alternate idea is to make nova-ing a reward. The same campaign also involves a lot of intrigue and detective work to identify and locate threats, so that for some missions, most of the work is in role-play and social situations. When the party's gone through so much trouble to seek out leads, lay figurative and literal traps, or prepare an assault, it's not too much of a stretch to give them one encounter on their terms rather than having them slogging through the villain's sorting algorithm or fending off wave after wave of mookery.
Thirded. I've found that if the DM doesn't specifically state a time limit on a given quest, that the PC's(in my group especially) WILL taker their sweet time, rest after every encounter, run back and forth from town to the dungeon, rest some more, craft a ton of magic items, plant crops, run for congress, build a coliseum, etc. THEN they'll finish the adventure at hand. if you nudge them in any way, they'll lash out with "well, nobody said we had to get it done right away..."
Time limits on adventures are mandatory if the DM wants to get anything done this year, in my group. Even then, count on the players using up every single hour of said limit.
My sessions rarely have more than one combat so it's pretty much always been "nova situations, but then I make it hard enough that they're expecting to blow all their spells anyway.So instead of discouraging noavas, you pretty much mandate them.
If the priory is only going to be attacked by a horde of undead abominations once in a single day, it may as well be a tough fight.
And I can count on the fingers of my third hand, the number of 1st edition DMs that I ever saw using those particular rules along with the AC adjustments of weapon vs armor type,... even at GenCon.
Wizards used to also have casting time on their spells that made them go later in the round than fighters, and 2 handed fighters used to have slow weapon speeds that made them go slower than one handers and 2wf. . .
Really? Weapon speed was something we used all the time. I was SOOOOOO glad to see that die a wonderfully glorious death in Pathfinder!!!
AC vs weapon type? Yeha, that never went very far.
To be fair, a wizard would make a pretty good janitor. Unseen servant, disintegrate, planar binding, gust of wind, etc. would all be quite useful for janitoring. And the janitor wizard can take all the trash and make a junk golem with it!Additionally with unlimited casts of Presdigitation, Mage Hand, and Mend you can make an awesome butler AND janitor!PCs: This isn't realistic. Why would a mighty wizard become a lowly janitor?
GM: Ehh, it's a rough economy right now and sometimes you just gotta take the jobs that are available, especially when you're facing a mountain of student loan debt from getting your wizarding degree.
Best job a Wizard with an Intelligence of 10-11 could get ;)
I imagine anyone with average intelligence and access to cantrips would probably shoot for magic item crafting as a career. Even meager stuff that only requires cantrips and a couple caster levels is still a lot of income, and with enough skill ranks even more advanced magic items could be created (DC would only be +10 for someone with neither the spell nor caster level, hard but doable with enough time).
Both of them were dead by Third Edition, out of use by Second.And I can count on the fingers of my third hand, the number of 1st edition DMs that I ever saw using those particular rules along with the AC adjustments of weapon vs armor type,... even at GenCon.
Wizards used to also have casting time on their spells that made them go later in the round than fighters, and 2 handed fighters used to have slow weapon speeds that made them go slower than one handers and 2wf. . .Really? Weapon speed was something we used all the time. I was SOOOOOO glad to see that die a wonderfully glorious death in Pathfinder!!!
AC vs weapon type? Yeha, that never went very far.
Both were still in the 2E Player's handbook (though 'type vs armor' was ignored.
In fact I never saw a 2E weapon list that didn't include Weapon Speed... When did that die? I had figured 3rd
every time they nova, send a ludicrisly overpowered and near unkillable monster at them while they rest. Have the non novaing players escape, kill the nova players outright. Ends that quickly
!.) When have you ever seen players actually flee from something? Every group I've played in fights to the death, because they trust that the DM is keeping CR's in check(even when the DM isn't).
2.) This sounds like a great way to destroy a gaming group. Kill troublesome PC's outright? Why not work with your players, and actually deal with what makes them so troublesome?
every time they nova, send a ludicrisly overpowered and near unkillable monster at them while they rest. Have the non novaing players escape, kill the nova players outright. Ends that quickly!.) When have you ever seen players actually flee from something? Every group I've played in fights to the death, because they trust that the DM is keeping CR's in check(even when the DM isn't).
My players flee when needs dictate. But then they are all aware up front that I run a "living" world and the CR of the creature they encounter may be well beyond their ability.
2.) This sounds like a great way to destroy a gaming group. Kill troublesome PC's outright? Why not work with your players, and actually deal with what makes them so troublesome?
I agree to a point. Sometimes even after discussing the issue the problem persists. An object lesson can sometimes make your point better than any number of conversations.
My players flee when needs dictate. But then they are all aware up front that I run a "living" world and the CR of the creature they encounter may be well beyond their ability.every time they nova, send a ludicrisly overpowered and near unkillable monster at them while they rest. Have the non novaing players escape, kill the nova players outright. Ends that quickly!.) When have you ever seen players actually flee from something? Every group I've played in fights to the death, because they trust that the DM is keeping CR's in check(even when the DM isn't).
Must be nice. I've tried that in my games; throw monsters that are supposed to be obviously more powerful than the group can handle, and they will fight it to the death. If they were 2nd level, and they met a (non-hostile) CR10 dragon, they'd still think is was somehow killable through some deus ex machina or something. I've written story segments that relied on the players evading disaster, only to have the same players face down the disaster.
2.) This sounds like a great way to destroy a gaming group. Kill troublesome PC's outright? Why not work with your players, and actually deal with what makes them so troublesome?I agree to a point. Sometimes even after discussing the issue the problem persists. An object lesson can sometimes make your point better than any number of conversations.
Maybe so, but it just comes off as passive-aggressive to me. "Didn't take what I said to heart? Oh, I'll just kill your PC. That'll teach you!" I've seen it happen, and I've seen BIGGER problems arise, than what the initial problem in the first place was.
To each their own, though. Everyone's table is different.