Need critique / suggestions for my PFS Offensive Casting Cleric.


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Hello all,

Below is my build for an offensive casting Cleric. My goal is to focus on casting Law & Good spells (or the occasional Sound Burst, etc.) with high DC's and to follow up with Quick Selective Negative Channels to living creatures. Undead I should be able to destroy with Good / Light spells and I have the advantage of some spells which protect me from Evil / Undead creatures.

Below is my build, I'm picking Abadar as I think the Domains are fairly good (Defense domain = Free Cloak of Resistance and Trade domain = Free +10ft movement along with useful powers and fairly good spell lists). Also, Abadar allows me to pick up Versatile Channeling if I so choose later on also.

If I were to switch deities I'd probably have to pick Sarenrae which would restrict me from using Evil spells or channeling negative energy ("Alignment Channel: Evil" may be my answer for the channeling issue tho at the expense of 1 feat?). If I went with Sarenrae I'd grab Fire and Sun domain (opening up burning hands and fireball as options for offensive spells).

My Cleric Build:

Race: Aasimar (+2wis, +2cha)
Racial Traits Replaced:
* Heavenborn (+1cl to good & light spells, +2 knowledge planes)
* Deathless Spirit (5resist negative energy, +2 to saves vs death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and spells or spell-like abilities of the necromancy school)
Character Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Deity: Abadar (LN)
Domains: Defense (sub-domain of Protection), Trade (sub-domain of Travel)
Traits:
* Force for Good (+1cl to good-aligned spells)
* Sacred Conduit (+1dc to Channeling)

Stats
Str: 7
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 17 + 2racial = 19
Cha: 16 + 2racial = 18
PFS 20pt buy

Levels
1) Cleric 1: Bab +0, Selective Channel (lvl 1)
2) Cleric 2: Bab +1,
3) Cleric 3: Bab +2, Improved Channel (lvl 3)
4) Cleric 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Cleric 5: Bab +3, Quick Channel (lvl 5) –5 ranks Knowledge Religion
6) Cleric 6: Bab +4,
7) Cleric 7: Bab +5, Spell Focus: Evocation (lvl 7)
8) Cleric 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Wis
9) Cleric 9: Bab +6/+1, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation (lvl 9)
10) Cleric 10: Bab +7/+2,
11) Cleric 11: Bab +8/+3, Quicken Spell or Extra Channel (lvl 11)
12) Cleric 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Wis

Would I be better off serving Sarenrae and forsaking Abadar? Would "Alignment Channel: Evil" effectively replace negative channeling while serving Sarenrae? This build is for PFS so most enemies will be either neutral or some sort of chaotic or evil alignment.

Any suggestions, thoughts, or improvements? Please keep in mind this is an offensive dmg Cleric, not a martial cleric of any sort.

Shadow Lodge

Some things to keep in mind with that build:

With a strength of 7 you will be very limited as to what you can carry, including armor (if you plan on wearing any). If you want this I would invest in a handy haversack or something similar early on.

If you are going to channel negative energy you will want to have the selective channeling feat (you didn't list any feats so I don't know if you picked this). There is no PvP in PFS so if you channel negative you either need this feat, need the permission of the other party members to damage them, or need to be in a position to not damage them.

Where is the Force for Good trait from? I can't seem to find it.

I have only made one blaster cleric and I chose a Theologian archetype fire domain cleric of Sarenrae. The archetype makes good use of metamagics and you could take Magical Lineage [Fireball] or another spell to help with adding metamagics.

With this build you will be really good at blasting but will suffer in AC and skills. I don't suggest putting all your eggs in one basket when it comes to PFS. Just my 2 copper.

Dark Archive

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My own two cents: I hate dumping Int. If I ever have to dump a stat, I always try to avoid Int, especially in PFS. PFS has a lot of skill rolls and dumping Int severely reduces how useful you are at that. Depending on your group, you might end up like one of my first games where we had no clue what was going on because no one could pass the skill rolls needed to figure out the plot. We ended up bumbling around for 3.5 hours before the BBEG showed and was like "HEY! I'M THE BAD GUY!" Majority of the reason my current character is more skill monkey than anything else (and a major reason why I feel more useful in our games than some other players...)

Besides, do you really want to RP the "I pick things up and put them down" character? Or in your case, "I cast pretty spells and they fall down" cleric? :D


The Theologian archetype does make for the best offensive caster clerics. You only get one domain, but you get metamagics instead. Fire and Sun domains give good spells to blast enemies with.

Other than that, Anthonydido offered good advice.

Lantern Lodge

Hi Kyoko-san (if that is a real name),

Mechanically, if you want to be a blaster Cleric you are best off going Fire domain or some other elemental domain. Theologian will let you prepare Burning Hands or other domain spells in *any* spell slot, and also make you cast at 2 levels higher. Combine this with Varisian tattoo, spell specialization and a few traits like Gifted Adept and you can pump that to 5d4 at level 1, having an effective CL 5th at level 1.

Aasimar is a legit choice for Clerics. For a one-level dip, you might consider Cross-blooded sorcerer. Take the Draconic and Orc domains, and you get a +2 damage bonus on every *damage die*. That adds up quick at higher levels.

Strictly speaking, Sorcerers and Wizzies will probably do more blasting than you can do. But you can get 5d4 + 10 damage at level 2 by getting your CL to 5th and dropping a level in CB Sorcerer. That's pretty legit for blasting too :-P The Charisma also translates nicely to the Sorcerer class..

Regarding what you wrote about Skill monkeying as a Cleric -- don't do it. Clerics just don't get enough skill points to make that work. Sarenrae is probably a better option all around for blasting, certainly for blasting undead. The Sun domain also lets you nail undead pretty hard. Consider the Aasimar FCB for Clerics, which adds to the damage of channeling vs. undead.

Liberty's Edge

I will third, not dumping int for PFS.

I understand why you did it. It is tough to get both cha and wis high. But that is why you don't usually see offensive channeling and offensive spell use in the same build. I've tried to make a build that would do both, but couldn't come up with anything I really liked.

Also, not certain, but the offensive channeling and offensive casting sounds like you are giving little though to defense. (How much armor can you wear with a 7 str and you need to get fairly close to channel.)

You will find it difficult to get all the feats you want in order to both raise you channel effectiveness (selective channel, variant channel, force channel, improved channel, alignment channel, extra channel, etc...) and your casting effectiveness (spell penetration, greater spell penetration, spell focus, improved spell focus, meta magic, etc...).

Your choice, but I wouldn't be happy with it.

I would recommend offensive channeling and buff utility casting (then you can lower wisdom a bit) OR offensive casting and channel to heal.

If you do go with offensive channel and Aasimar, seriously consider the Aasimar force channel feats in the ARG. I think they are wondrous.

Alignment channel

Quote:

Alignment Channel

Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.

Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.

Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.

It won't affect all evil creatures (a common misconception) just outsiders with the evil subtype. However, that's not bad. Demons are supposed to be getting common in season 5.

Liberty's Edge

@anthonydido - Feats are listed in the "Level" section, showing what feats I'd grab at what level. Also I'd be picking up muleback cords asap for the +8str to carry weight (bringing it to 15str for carrying limit).

Also, Force of Good is from Silver Crusade's faction traits in PFS.

---
@My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine - I'd be wearing Breastplate armor as I'd be picking up muleback cords asap.

---
The biggest reason I dropped int was because it takes 4points (from 7 to 10) just to get 2 skill points per a level, if I wanted more than two I'd have to burn even more skill points which if I'm focusing channeling along with casting then that becomes a problem.

It seems most suggestions are to go with Sarenrae and Theologian. Which sounds fine to me, I feel if I go this route I'd need to drop Charisma and not focus on channeling as much, also I'd like to keep "Force of Good" trait and "Heavenborn" racial for the +2cl to "Good" descriptor spells and +1cl to light spells (not sure if +1cl to light spells will even help anything though.).

Can someone give me an example build for a Cleric (Theologian) of Sarenrae, with stats (lowering charisma), and keeping the Racials I picked and keeping "Force of Good" trait (1 free trait left since Sacred Conduit wouldn't be of much help then)?

Also, it's been my experience even in season 3 & 4 there's been a decent amount of demons. 5 is supposed to contain even more evidently.

***Sidenote (which I don't want this thread being derailed but I wanted to add my 2cents on RP'ing low Int characters.

Small rant on low Int & RP'ing:
Concerning RP'ing low Int - A low Int character is not mentally handicapped, low int means they simply don't know much about the "outside world", book smarts, and intricate tactics. Wisdom concerns common sense, being "present" in the here-and-now, and making rational and smart choices. A Cleric with high Wis and low Int would be someone who seeks their deity in prayers and services but has little to do with reading, writing, and lore of the outside world or historical records. Hopefully that clears up the "Don't tank int because if you roleplay you'd be playing a moron."

Liberty's Edge

Understood, but remember muleback cords mean you can't wear a cloak of resistance. They can't be combined in PFS.

derail:
I would never say a 7 int implies a moron. However, I wouldn't play that as coming up with detailed complex plans or tactics (even when needed). I would have to see in play about what exactly you meant by "rational and smart choices." To me that implies the logical deductive reasoning that I think goes hand in hand with intelligence.

However, what I was talking about isn't so much the role play as the skills involved. I've been in some scenarios that were much more social and skill centered than combat centered (and at least 2 that were only fight centered because we had no one that could pass virtually any non-combat skill check). In those, the players whose character dumped int and had no skills seemed very bored. They could sense motive, could use diplomacy, had no knowledge skills, couldn't bluff, couldn't sneak, couldn't climb, etc... Yes, they did attempt to RP some. But their skill checks usually made the situation worse not better, so they tended to stop trying.

Scarab Sages

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

Understood, but remember muleback cords mean you can't wear a cloak of resistance. They can't be combined in PFS.

** spoiler omitted **

True but a simple masterwork backpack is usually enough to tide you over until you get extra-dimensional containers.

Liberty's Edge

That is an issue, but I'm assuming a Sarenrae Theologian build would focus around a Lawbringer or Plumekith (Blood of Angels) Aasimar and be 2ndary as a reach Cleric. Main focus would be maxed Wis, while beefing up str,con,dex and maybe int 10-12, while tanking Charisma (7)?

That just a rough build guess, if someone would like to post a Sarenrae Theologian build I'd appreciate it.

Liberty's Edge

Not saying it is impossible or wrong, just a warning.
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This character under this avatar has dumped strength to 8. I find it rather a chore to decide what I can or will carry out where I can get to it in an emergency (draw as a free action) and what to stick in the haversack (move action to get it), and still have to stay under 20 pounds in the haversack. He is not as well equipped as I would generally prefer my characters to be.
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There have been several occasions recently, where I chose not to buy an item simply due to its weight. I had the money and wanted to make the purchase, but didn't want to be slowed down. I then eventually found myself desperately wishing I had the item.
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Of course there have also been occasions when the bad guy only failed the save by 1. If my cha had been lower the fight would have been longer or potentially even lost.
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{shrug} It's all about trade-offs. I just wanted to point it out to be certain it had been considered.

Shadow Lodge

Ah, that's where the feats were. How did I miss that? And I didn't even look in PFS specific resources for traits which is how I missed that one too, hehe.

This is how I would build a blaster cleric:

Race: Archon-Blooded Aasimar [+2 Con and Wis](requires Blood of Angels book)

Str 11
Dex 12
Con 12(14)
Int 14
Wis 16(18)
Cha 10

Cleric (Theologian) with fire domain
Magical Lineage (Fireball) for second trait
I would also pick Reactionary for +2 Initiative but it seems you are set on your other trait.

I typically don't start with anything above a modified 18 because it takes a lot away from other abilities and the cost for the extra 1 or 2 points doesn't counter the extra 4-6 points you could be putting elsewhere.

I also don't like to dump stats too often. I like the Int in this build to help with skill points (as clerics lack in that department) and to make identifying those creatures easier so I know what resistances they may have. The extra Str helps with armor and carrying capacity so you can still wear the coveted cloak of resistance. Dex helps AC and ranged touch attacks a little.

Pick up improved initiative to get those fireballs off before melee charge in and spell focus (evocation) to up the DCs. Pick up metamagic feats later.

You could possibly even take a 1 level dip into Admixture Wizard so you can change the energy type of those evocation spells when needed.

Again, this is what I'd do. I don't like being good at only one thing in PFS and I don't suggest anyone else do it either because there are a lot of times where skills are needed, even more so it seems with newer scenarios.

Take from it what you will though.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks anthonydido, I see what "My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine" and you both mean by failing skill checks. I played a particularly skill / social session two weeks ago which we wouldn't have known hardly anything going on if my Wizard wasn't succeeding skill checks left and right.

I like the Admixture Wizard dip suggestion, that gives 5 uses per day to alter a fireball's dmg type. It also allows me to pickup Spell Focus: Evocation for free (swapping Scribe Scroll, PFS rules), and allows me to get a +4init familiar.

What level would you suggest I dip 1 level into Admixture Wizard?

My feat selection would maybe look like this?

Feats:

Lvl 1 - Spell Specialization (burning hands, later switching to fireball)
Lvl 2 - Spell Focus: Evocation (assuming I dip into Admixture Wizard here)
Lvl 3 - Varisian Tattoo: Evocation
Lvl 5 - Additional Traits
Lvl 7 - Empower Spell
Lvl 9 - Quicken Spell
Lvl 11 - Improved Initiative

Additional Traits:

I'm starting out with "Force of Good" (faction) and "Magical Lineage" (magic) traits at level 1.

With "Additional Traits" feat I could grab "Wayang Spellhunter: Fireball" (regional) and "Reactionary" (combat) traits at level 5. This seems like a good choice right?

Does anyone what book "Wayang Spellhunter" trait is from?

Liberty's Edge

I have rarely been a fan of 'quicken spell' especially in PFS since it only goes to level 11 (mostly). Where you have it at level 9, you can only cast 4th level spells. So the only thing you can quicken is a level 0 spell. Unless you also take the feats that lower the metamagic increase. At level 10 and 11 you will only be able to quicken a first level spell.

Do you have a 1st level spell that you think will be decisive when you are fighting level 12-14 opponents? I don't usually feel that way.

Having said that, it is a very common choice for primary casters (usually only single class wizards though). So obviously, a lot of people are very happy with it.

I am more a fan of the feats or metamagic to get past SR. I have heard that is becoming more common with the demons in seasons 4 and 5. But I haven't played those scenarios yet, so I can't say for sure.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the advice. Any suggestions for a feat/metamagic that helps bypass SR then to replace Quicken Spell?

Liberty's Edge

Doesn't have a lot to do with feats and stuff, but I'd look for some cheap lesser metamagic rods. Persistent Spell is good, and only 3000 gp. A persistent calm emotions can end an encounter, and several good offensive cleric spells are levels 3 or below (blindness/deafness, for example).

I've got a caster cleric, and I went dwarf and heavy armor. I'm keeping my AC at around 20+level or so, and buying rods and staffs. I'm using prestige (after saving enough to get resurrected) to pick up scrolls like Freedom of Movement and Death Ward so that I don't have to keep them prepared, thus saving my slots for really generic stuff. He's got rods of Extend Spell (for 10 min/level buffs) and persistent spell (for debuffs), wands of bless, cure light wounds, protection from evil, and comprehend languages... I guess the main gist of this paragraph is that you can really fill out a cleric with wands and scrolls, leaving you with a lot more prepared slots for your offensive stuff while still letting you fill the traditional party buffer role when you're called to it. I've selected his domains for the spells they have and the functionality they add to the cleric spell list, so I use pearls of power to get more domain spells and thus the ability to dip into the wizard and druid lists more often for buffs and battlefield control.

Oh, and unlike homegames that may go into 15+, because PFS caps at 11-12, your 3rd-level spells (and by extension, your lesser rods) stay relevant for the life of your character.

Liberty's Edge

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Do you have a 1st level spell that you think will be decisive when you are fighting level 12-14 opponents?

Protection from Evil.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

You're talking about a character whose gear is likely to throw him into the heavy encumbrance category. When I see a cleric with Strength 7, I must admit that I'm more inclined to enforce encumbrance rules than I might be with characters of Strength 12-14. You're taking a disadvantage to gain an advantage, so I expect you to endure that disadvantage's full significance.

I'd recommend a build more like:

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 16 + 2racial = 18
Cha: 14 + 2racial = 16


Sir_Wulf wrote:
When I see a cleric with Strength 7, I must admit that I'm more inclined to enforce encumbrance rules than I might be with characters of Strength 12-14. You're talking about a character whose gear is likely to throw him into the heavy encumbrance category.

Which according to the rules is even the correct way to do it.

Carrying Capacity wrote:
If your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, however, then you'll need to calculate encumbrance by weight.

(Otherwise just use armor)

Liberty's Edge

Oh, and I'd go for channeling positive energy and a charisma of 12-ish. It'll leave your party in better shape and give you more stat points to distribute elsewhere. Channeling usually ends up being an end-of-battle heal, or something where a little positioning can do most of the work of selective channel.

Channel+items = efficient healing/party buffing
Offensive spells = well, your offense.

It's been my general impression that channeling for damage never really seemed worth the action it took to execute. At third level, 2d6 with a pretty low will save for half just isn't that much. A rod-empowered fireball (lesser rod) is gonna put it all to shame. Lesser persistent rods will also work on your fireballs, making them harder to avoid.

That's not much gold, and it'll produce much higher output than negative channel while leaving you with the ability to positive channel and heal your teammates.

I'd go something like
Str 10-12
Con 12-14
Dex 12 (efficient with plate mail)
Int 7
Wis 19
Cha 12 or so

I know that int 7 isn't popular, and it leaves you with less options, but the math isn't as unfavorable as some people make it out to be. I will warn you that this next bit is pretty cheesy, but it's legal by PFS rules. Tank your intelligence, pick 2-3 skills, and just spread out your points and make up the difference with masterwork items. Stuff like eyeglasses for perception, ceremonial dress for diplomacy, facepaint for intimidate, surgical tools for heal, and so on. They're only 50 gp apiece, and it helps you get the equivalent of a higher intelligence score for a few gold pieces.

compare an int 10 character at level 2 with no masterwork items (so non-cheesed) to an int 7 character at level 2 who's shamelessly dropped 100 gp to improve his lot in life.

10 int: 2 skill points per level, dumped in 2 skills, meaning +2 to 2 skills.
7 int: 1 skill point per level, spread out into 2 skills, with items for +3 to two skills.

Granted, over the life of the character, the 10 int character will do better with skill points. But you're trading something like an occasional +1 to a skill roll for +1 to all spell DCs, or +1 hit point per level, or something that's much more powerful. Yes, having more skill points is a good thing, but there are steps you can take to mitigate the damage done by a low intelligence. The DCs on the skill checks in modules do not assume masterwork items, and those are the DCs you have to beat.

I haven't actually run the numbers on this, but for offensive casters, I like to feel safe so I can just unload my spells. That means good AC (Level+18 at least), good saves (Cleric rocks at this, add in dwarf to be awesome), and good HP (again, cleric is pretty good here).

I mean, offensively, clerics lag behind wizards. You've got to make that up somehow, and that's with features like your domains for spell selection, your capability to wear heavy armor, and your superior saving throws/durability.


Man, I come here expectin' some solid material, but what is all this, I don't even...

... jerk helpful forums, never considerate enough ta be all evil and condescendin'.

Anyway, as the very first response should have been:

What the very first response should have been wrote:

For youse first level spells, I recommend filling up a couple o' youse slots with Your Mother, as well as a basic Derogatory Term as one of your orisons at all times, for 'dem emergencies what you need ta be really offensive (related: though it's over-kill, and certainly ain't classy, I'm a friggin' demon, so I'd recommend a decent Filthy Language orison - honestly it's unnecessary, but I find that a touch o' that helps ta really tick off 'dem whats respectable types...).

In term o' what ya should have on youse second level o' spells, youse should look inta certain hot-button topics 'round dese here forums. Youse got some good - by which o' course, I mean evil - material right there. Maybe a Sexism, or 'dat Racism (everyone loves dis one - it provides bonuses ta attack an' damage! You know: fo' kids!). But for youse third level, ya should be sure to go full-on wit' either Arch Conservative (if youse a lousy devil-lover) or (my favorite, naturally, as I ain't no lousy devil-lover) Arch Liberal - sure the utility o' either's somewhat narrow, buts you find ways ta hammer - after all, "the whole world looks like a nail", so theys say. But youse gots to be sure to stick wit' only one... at least until youse gets in good wit' one o' dose specialist groups, at which point youse can waffle alls ya want ta try and weasel in wit' da other. Be aware, though, that once it's revealed 'dat you've prepared both o' dem, youse carrier is likely gonna be cut short (but, you know, if youse go wit' me as youse patron, ya got my solemn oath - solemn oath - 'dat I's gonna promote yous right quick up da demon ladder and won't sell youse soul ta th' highest bidder or eat it like one o' dem late night snacks. Solemn oath. Anyhose, beyond 'dat, I might recommend a bit o' contagion, some o' youse basic animate dead (dem good guys hate dat one fo' some reasons - heehee), and, o'course, a solid blasphemy spell once youse reachin' the high levels.

Obviously youse needs a genuinely offensive evil patron... though it's prob'ly better iffin' youse start out wit' a good one, only ta betray everythin' ya stand for first by castin' dem [evil] spells. Dat's real offensive, I hear. Harder, though.

Really kid, I'm proud o' youse. Makin' an offensive cleric like dis shows some real commitment, real initiatives. Very nice job becomin' a jerk. Maybes youse'll make a good - by which o' course, I mean evil - demon (o' thirty) after alls. Evil luck be wit' ya!

Okay, now dat de requisite "joke post" is out o' de way, youse guys can continue to do all dat "serious" stuff. What is dis forum comin' to anyways...

EDIT: alterin' some o' dose evil tags. Also tas make my ridiculous accent a little better (like seriously, where does dis 'ting come from? Italian mafia? Deep southerner? I dunno.), an' addin' a link an' a few words.

Shadow Lodge

Kyoko Hitomu wrote:

Thanks anthonydido, I see what "My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine" and you both mean by failing skill checks. I played a particularly skill / social session two weeks ago which we wouldn't have known hardly anything going on if my Wizard wasn't succeeding skill checks left and right.

I like the Admixture Wizard dip suggestion, that gives 5 uses per day to alter a fireball's dmg type. It also allows me to pickup Spell Focus: Evocation for free (swapping Scribe Scroll, PFS rules), and allows me to get a +4init familiar.

What level would you suggest I dip 1 level into Admixture Wizard?

My feat selection would maybe look like this?
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Does anyone what book "Wayang Spellhunter" trait is from?

Wayang Spellhunter is in the Dragon Empires Primer.

Instead of Additional Traits you could just pick up Improved Initiative and take something like Greater spell focus at 11. I think the +4 initiative is better than those two traits personally.

I also am not a fan of the quicken metamagic feat for PFS. The +4 is a hefty cost and PFS doesn't let you get high enough to use it to the fullest. I would suggest intensified, persistent or maximized instead. Piercing is good vs. SR.

I would take the admixture dip early. Either start with the wizard or take it at level 2.

Liberty's Edge

Kyoko Hitomu wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Any suggestions for a feat/metamagic that helps bypass SR then to replace Quicken Spell?

Piercing spell - treat SR as 5 lower, cost is 1 level

Bouncing spell - redirect against another target if the first avoids all effect, cost 1 level
Persistent spell - force 2nd save if first succeeds, cost 2 levels
Spell penentration - +2 CL check to bypass SR
Greater spell penentration - another +2 CL check to bypass SR

I usually take spell penentration and greater spell penetration. It costs 2 feats but then works on every spell with no level cost.

A friend of mine prefers piercing and/or bouncing.

Axebeard wrote:
My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Do you have a 1st level spell that you think will be decisive when you are fighting level 12-14 opponents?
Protection from Evil.

Except when you want it, you almost always want the whole party to have it so the barbarian isn't dominated to attack you. So eveyone seems to take the communal or circle variations. And your back to not being able to quicken it.

Liberty's Edge

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


Except when you want it, you almost always want the whole party to have it so the barbarian isn't dominated to attack you. So eveyone seems to take the communal or circle variations. And your back to not being able to quicken it.

I don't think the existence of better versions of the same spell means that the first level is any less useful. In higher-level games, PFE is a second saving throw against a mind-controlling effect. But, ideally, the wizard would just be winning initiative every time at that point and actual conflicts would be a thing of the past.

Now, I agree that Quicken Spell isn't as good for clerics and isn't as good in PFS, so it's not a good choice. But PFE is an amazing first-level spell, and I've seen it save a party even in higher-level combats.

Silver Crusade

if I play offensive caster cleric, I go for channel Neg.

Str:8
Dex:12
Con:12
Int:8
Wis:18
Cha:18

with this build, just put your skills into being the "face"as it was, sense motive + bluff/diplomacy.

Silver Crusade

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Playing a foolish hero can be a lot of fun, if you do it for laughs.

Magda dumped INT, and is too stupid to have figured out it was a bad idea. PFS requires both cleverness and INT-based skill rolls. Better to reduce your combat effectiveness a little and have half a brain.

Liberty's Edge

@Sir Wulf - Indeed, good suggestion on stats. If I took Improved Channel and Sacred Conduit I'd still be looking at a DC18 for negative channeling. Taking Axebeard's advice I could possibly tank Int and pickup masterwork items.

@Axebeard - Great suggestion for bumping up skills. I remember someone mentioning that a masterwork tool can be for any skill and can give you a +2 bonus. Spending a few coin but easy way to bump up those skills.

@rorek55 - Int8 is honestly pointless, you get the same amount of skill points with 7 or 8 Int, you're only gaining 1skill towards Int based skills and it costs 2 points. I'd rather bump Str to avoid encumbrance.

@My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine - Thank you for the list. Much appreciated.

@anthonydido - Thanks for the book reference, I think that's the same book that additional deities are in, like Yamatsumi. If so, I'll need to pick this up soon. My suggestion for Wayang Spellhunter is that it stacks with Magical Lineage and does the same thing, but only on spells lvl 3 or lower. So I could use both on Fireball and lower it down 2 levels for purposes of metamagic feats added to it.

**I wanted to respond to everyone in one post and I'll make another post with the two updated builds that I have to choose from.

Silver Crusade

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Playing a foolish hero can be a lot of fun, if you do it for laughs.

Magda dumped INT, and is too stupid to have figured out it was a bad idea. PFS requires both cleverness and INT-based skill rolls. Better to reduce your combat effectiveness a little and have half a brain.

let someone else do that, clerics are not supposed to be the INT skill checkers. besides he fills a perfectly common role of PFS in my build, the face.

Liberty's Edge

Here's the two builds I've came up with (with the help from everyone's suggestions here). I want to first say that for both of these I'm avoiding tanking Int so I can play around with having some extra skill points per level.

The other thing I want to mention is that I think people are overlooking is that Negative Channeling isn't better or worse than Casting Offensively. I bring this up because I'm using Selective Channel + Quick Channel to use it as a Move Action, allowing me to ALSO cast during the same round. Another thing to mention is that the damage CAN'T be avoided as a successful Will save only reduces the dmg in half. It's guaranteed to harm the enemy at least some.

Will all that being said, here's the builds:

Blaster + Negative Channeler:

[b/]Race:[/b] Aasimar (+2wis, +2cha)
Racial Traits Replaced:
* Heavenborn (+1cl to good & light spells, +2 knowledge planes)
* Deathless Spirit (5resist negative energy, +2 to saves vs death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and spells or spell-like abilities of the necromancy school)
Character Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Deity: Abadar (LN)
Domains:
* Defense (sub-domain of Protection)
* Trade (sub-domain of Travel)
Traits:
* Force for Good (+1cl to good-aligned spells)
* Sacred Conduit (+1dc to Channeling)

Stats
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 16 + 2racial = 18
Cha: 14 + 2racial = 16
20points / 20points

Levels
1) Cleric 1: Bab +0, Selective Channel (lvl 1)
2) Cleric 2: Bab +1,
3) Cleric 3: Bab +2, Improved Channel (lvl 3)
4) Cleric 4: Bab +3, +1 Con
5) Cleric 5: Bab +3, Quick Channel (lvl 5) –5 ranks Knowledge Religion
6) Cleric 6: Bab +4,
7) Cleric 7: Bab +5, Improved Initiative (lvl 7)
8) Cleric 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Wis
9) Cleric 9: Bab +6/+1, Spell Penetration (lvl 9)
10) Cleric 10: Bab +7/+2,
11) Cleric 11: Bab +8/+3, Greater Spell Penetration (lvl 11)
12) Cleric 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Wis

Abadar provides two domains which give some great spells and abilities.
Domains
* Defense Subdomain: +Resist from Protection that replaces the need to buy a Cloak of Resistance. Frees up 4k by lvl6 or 9k by lvl 11. Useful domain spells and Barkskin. Deflection aura ability is a nice flat +2ac 20ft aura.

* Trade Subdomain: Free +10ft speed from Travel. GREAT domain spells. Cast floating disk, hop on and command it to move over water, lava, Grease, or possibly Rough Terrain. You also get a Free Action social buffing ability and Dimensional Hop ability. Rest of domain spells are great, including Fly, Dimension Door, and Overland Flight.

Abadar's alignment I think is good for roleplaying also. You support society, law & order, and economic growth while remaining neutral morally. I do think Abadar is a good candidate despite not being able to cast burning hands or fireball.

Conclusion: @ lvl6 I'm looking at a DC 19 Negative Channel, which I can Quick Channel 3 times a day. My Wisdom is still decent enough that with items I can focus on blasting with spells like "Holy Smite", "Order's Wrath", "Spear of Purity", etc to dmg Chaotic and Evil creatures.

A typical round vs an Evil Outsider @ lvl6: Normal action = Spear of Purity for 8d6 (6cl's + 2cl for spell being "Good") to an evil outsider + move action = Negative Channel for 3d6 (save for half dmg). Damage seems pretty decent but not sure how well the dmg holds up to Build #2

Good aligned Blaster:

[b/]Race:[/b] Archon-Blooded Aasimar (+2wis, +2con)
Racial Traits Replaced:
* Heavenborn (+1cl to good & light spells, +2 knowledge planes)
* Deathless Spirit (5resist negative energy, +2 to saves vs death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and spells or spell-like abilities of the necromancy school)
Character Alignment: Neutral Good
Deity: Sarenrae (NG)
Domains:
* Fire
Traits:
* Force for Good (+1cl to good-aligned spells)
* Magical Lineage: Fireball

Stats
Str: 11
Dex: 12
Con: 12 + 2racial = 14
Int: 14
Wis: 16 + 2racial = 18
Cha: 10
20points / 20points

Levels
1) Theologian 1: Bab +0, Spell Specialization: Burning Hands (lvl 1)
2) Admixture Wizard 1: Bab +0, Spell Focus: Evocation (Scribe Scroll replacement)
3) Theologian 2: Bab +1, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation (lvl 3)
4) Theologian 3: Bab +2, +1 Wis
5) Theologian 4: Bab +3, Additional Traits (lvl 5) –5 ranks Knowledge Religion
6) Theologian 5: Bab +3, (Swapping Spell Spec to SS: Fireball)
7) Theologian 6: Bab +4, Empower Spell (lvl 7)
8) Theologian 7: Bab +5, +1 Wis
9) Theologian 8: Bab +6/+1, Spell Penetration (lvl 9)
10) Theologian 9: Bab +6/+1,
11) Theologian 10: Bab +7/+2, Greater Spell Penetration (lvl 11)
12) Theologian 11: Bab +8/+3, +1 Str

Conclusion: At level 1 Burning Hands does 4d4 dmg (Theologian +2, Spell Specialization +2). Once Fireball opens up, change Spell Specialization to Fireball and I'm doing 10d6 at Lvl6 (Cleric 5cl's + Theologian 2cl's + Spell Specialization 2cl's + Varisian Tattoo 1cl).

Additional Traits: Wayang Spellhunter and Reactionary. Reason for Wayang Spellhunter is I believe it stacks with Magical Lineage for a -2level increase when applying a a Metamagic. So you could apply 2 +1lvl increase metamagics or 1 +2lvl increase metamagic, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Not much to say about Sarenrae. I get 1 domain and it's Fire. Crappy firebolt ability at 1st lvl and Fire resist at 8th lvl. Reason for the domain is Burning Hands, Fireball, and Wall of Fire though for blasting. Theologian limits me to 1 domain so no 2nd domain.

I did a small analysis for dmg vs an Evil Outsider below.

Sample Damage at Lvl6:

* Build1 - Spear of Purity = 8d6 4/day (and blinded 1round, Will save) + 3d6 Negative channel 3/day (Will save) for a total of 11d6 per turn 3-4 times a day depending on how much I boost Charisma with items to get extra channels.

* Build2 - Fireball = 10d6 2/day (Reflex save), Burning Hands = 8d4 4/day (Reflex save).

Empower Spell rod/feat would improve damage for most of these dmg spells so there would be some fluctuation in dmg. Build1 allows for an easy way to pump out a spell and channel in 1round. Build2 would most likely do more damage per round vs none Chaotic or Evil creatures though.

So there's the two options I believe are available. Both seem like they are fairly close. Build1 does give me Floating Disk, Fly, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, Free scaling Cloak of Resist, and +10 movespeed though along with some useful Abilities. Just throwing that out there because I think some people are forgetting the benefits of those domains. What are your thoughts?

Shadow Lodge

They both look interesting. Remember though that most of the enemies you will face will not be evil outsiders which is why I would favor the Theologian build.

Some things you may have missed:

The Theologian doesn't let you cast domain spells at +2 CL. That ability (Focused Domain) only applies to your domain powers, fire bolt and fire resistance.

I don't see any reason why Wayang Spellhunter wouldn't stack with Magical Lineage.

I don't have anything for the first build.

Liberty's Edge

@anthonydido - It appears you're right with the Theologian wording, which pretty much means it doesn't help Fire domain at all. Here's a better example of the damage between the two at 7th level.

Dmg @ lvl7:

Theologian Cleric
Spell Lvl3 - Fireball - 9d6 (Reflex save) 3/day
Spell Lvl2 - Empowered Burning Hands - 9d4 (Reflex save) 4/day

Negative Channel Cleric (vs Evil alignment)
Spell Lvl2 - Spear of Purity - 4d8+Blind (Will save) 4/day
Negative Channel - 4d6 (Will save) 6/day (3/day if Quick Channel)
Spell Lvl4 - Holy Smite - 4d8+Blind (Will save) 1/day

Total per round -
Theologian: 9d6
Neg Channel Cleric: (4d8+Blind) + 4d6


-----

I feel the Defense+Trade domain spell lists and powers add a lot also. Whereas the Theologian gets the Fire domain with some weak domain powers.

Please feel free to add suggestions/opinions on which build you prefer. Or what you'd do to make either of these builds better. :)

Shadow Lodge

How are you getting 9d4 for the burning hands? It caps at 5d4 unless you intensify it. Empower adds 50% to the damage you roll and any damage modifiers you may have. So if you do 5d4 and roll 12 for damage, an empowered version will do 18 (12 + 6) damage. Remember also that damage dice cap at caster level, even with Intensified Spell.

So your burning hands will cap at level 3 with the +2 CL from SS and +1 CL from VT. When you switch SS to fireball, that will cap at 10d6 at level 8 (+2 from SS, +1 from VT). That's why Intensified Spell is so good. It raises that cap by 5 dice.

That was just a cursory glance so maybe I missed something.

Remember also that the Theologian is meant to make use of metamagic feats so taking only one really reduces the effectiveness of the archetype. The fire domain powers are weak but, to me anyway, it has the best damage spells to make use of metamagic feats (namely fireball) on top of the normal cleric evocation spells like spear of purity, sound burst, searing light, holy smite, etc.

I recommend getting intensified spell at level 9 and push SP back to 11. You usually don't see much SR until the higher levels anyway. And I still think a different feat like SP or improved initiative taken at 5 is better than additional traits, but that's just me.

Shadow Lodge

Also, at 5th level (6th for you with the 1 level dip) you can select a domain spell to get permanently enhanced with one of the metamagics it lists for that ability and intensified is on that list.

So if you choose fireball and intensified then you can go up to 14d6 at level 12 (CL 11 +2 SS, +1 VT) if my math is right.

Liberty's Edge

Yep you're right, I meant Intensified Spell and not Empower Spell.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

Be warned: The rules suggest that most masterwork items will only provide their +2 bonus under limited circumstances. Most items should not be useful for every possible use of a skill.

As an example, my barbarian's masterwork intimidation tool (a necklace of expertly preserved thumbs, harvested from unfortunate souls who got on his nerves) will only help him intimidate those already uneasy about the possibility of barbaric violence. It might just make a troll feel snackish or a Shoanti tribesman pull out his own unsavory relics.

Liberty's Edge

I think for any of the knowledge checks you'd be safe with a masterwork item. Say for example, A book of "Historia Deum" masterwork item that gives +2 to Knowledge Religion checks. Might need multiple books for 1 Knowledge though, like one on Deities and one on Undead Creatures. Pretty good idea though Sir Wulf and Axebeard.

I'm leaning towards Build#1 atm, having a free Cloak of Resistance, +10movespeed, and spells like Floating Disk, Fly, Dimension Door, and the Domain Abilities. I would get more damage from the Theologian build but I feel it's at the cost of a good amount of survivability and utility.

My main concern with Build#1 is how effective I'd be at healing. I could prepare a few healing spells and always convert them to inflict wounds spells if needed. I'd be buying CLW wands but healing in combat I probably wouldn't be able to keep up with the damage enemies are dishing. Would Versatile Channel be worth squeezing in? If so, at what level and what Feat should I remove? Or should I not worry about Versatile Positive Channeling?

I assume I'd have 8 channels per day at level 7 if I took the two below items for a +4cha boost.

Headband of mental prowess +2 Cha, +2 Wis - 10k
Pink and green +2 Cha - 8k

Shadow Lodge

Those two items don't stack. They are both enhancement bonuses. I'm assuming that you're talking about the pink and green ioun stone.

Liberty's Edge

anthonydido wrote:
Those two items don't stack. They are both enhancement bonuses. I'm assuming that you're talking about the pink and green ioun stone.

Welp, guess I'd only be getting one of those items then. Still, Versatile Channel worth getting and if so where would it be best to put it in Build#1?

Shadow Lodge

You don't necessarily have to be a healer as well. That may be spreading yourself too thin. I don't see a feat worth giving up for that.

Liberty's Edge

How about Positive Channeling and taking the Aasimar's Cleric Favored bonus? "Add +1/2 to damage when using positive energy against undead or using Alignment Channel to damage evil outsiders."

If I went that route I'd be tempted to not take Versatile Channel but Alignment Channel. Just a thought. Or I could just neglect any sort of Positive Channeling and just tell others that I'm not "that kind of Cleric".

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, I'd just tell the party up front that you weren't a healing cleric. People are generally under the false impression that just because someone plays a cleric that they HAVE to be a healer. My blaster cleric isn't for PFS but I said up front to the party (which happens to have other classes capable of healing) that I wasn't a healer. I will heal when I feel that it's more beneficial to the party than casting an offensive spell but that's not my focus.

Don't pigeonhole yourself into doing something you may not want to do for the sake of everyone else. You should have fun playing what you want to play how you want to play it.

Liberty's Edge

Sir_Wulf wrote:

Be warned: The rules suggest that most masterwork items will only provide their +2 bonus under limited circumstances. Most items should not be useful for every possible use of a skill.

As an example, my barbarian's masterwork intimidation tool (a necklace of expertly preserved thumbs, harvested from unfortunate souls who got on his nerves) will only help him intimidate those already uneasy about the possibility of barbaric violence. It might just make a troll feel snackish or a Shoanti tribesman pull out his own unsavory relics.

Well, that depends on the flavor of the item. Sure, if the item is intended to have an effect on other characters, then the state of the other character will be the determining factor in whether or not the item functions.

If you're going for full-on mechanical optimization, though, then that's why it's important to flavor the item such that it has an effect on YOUR character, thus making him more effective at whatever it is that he's trying to do. Make them function as a psychological boost to performance. (There's real-world science behind this, too.) How you dress has a very real impact on how you behave and carry yourself.

Let's say, for example, that your character had grown up a noble's brat who had to spend time in court, but noticed that the diplomats who performed effective negotiations always wore a certain kind of circlet, robe, or signet and thus associated competent diplomacy with a certain symbol. Naturally, by wearing a similar item, your character will feel more competent and perform better at diplomacy. Or, by wearing a mask, your character feels more fearsome (or at least is reassured that he can take the mask off if things fail and thus be less recognizable as the intimidator) and thus will behave in a more fearsome way.

Whether or not the item functions also depends on how it's sold to the DM at your table for the event. DMs like to see people role-play, so at least have fun with it. Or, if you're just out to optimize, trick the DM into thinking you did it for character reasons and it's more likely to fly.

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