Is it evil to kill evil for profit?


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So, long introduction and anecdotes aside; is it evil to set up say 6 to 10 dire lions, have them ready an action, and then summon a bearded devil (lesser planar binding) in the midst of them? Not from a "the bigger devils will eventually retaliate" point of view but from an alignment point of view?


killing is generally considered no-good, but what I see here is setting up a massacre for fun or profit, alignment of target doesn't matter much as I don't see you mentionning anything about doing that to stop the devil from doing bad things

yep, quite on the evil side

+in game terms summoning evil outsiders is on its own considered an evil act


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Yeah, I think the real problem is risking that the devil gets loose. Plus, cage fights of any sort are plain animal cruelty.

I'd say it's either low neutral or high evil. It definitely ain't good, but it's not really evil to hurt devils and...well, animals are more complicated. It's probably a sign of evil if you enjoy watching the violence, though.

All in all, I'd say the lions are the problem, not the devil. Make it all devils and we'll talk.


Well assume the animals are summoned and thus not real. (i.e. master summoner lvl 10 Summons a bunch of monsters, magic circle + dimensional anchor + lesser planar binding) slaughters the devil and then turns the corpse over to the government to collect a bounty for devil killing.


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Technically, summoned animals are real. They're just from another plane of existence. ;D

That being said, now that you've clarified it's for a bounty, it's definitely Neutral at worst. Heck, it could even be Good, though it's pretty dishonorable from a knight's perspective. Bounty hunting is not inherently evil--what matters is where you draw the line.

Here's a rule of thumb. Hunting devils = Okay. Hunting psychic teenage girls and threatening to torture adorable ship mechanics = Not okay.

That being said, why is there a bounty? If the bounty is for devils menacing the land, and you're just cashing in by summoning them in all sneaky-style, it's Chaotic Neutral.


I think it is pretty much on the darker side of the alignment scale.

1) You are doing it for profit, which is a selfish motive rather than an altruistic one. Neutral leaning towards evil. Leaning further to the evil side due to the following points.

2) You use the dire lions as a tool, disregarding their pain and possible death. While they are just animals, it pretty much paints a picture of a character, who has little problem offering up other living creatures for his own benefit. Push it a little farther towards evil, on account of prioritizing own financial gain above the respect for life.

3) You accept the risk that the devil might be let loose upon the world, if you make a mistake. Again, in some situations this is an acceptable risk, but your motives aren't pure. At the end of the day, you accept that others might pay the price for your actions, just for a chance to earn some gold.

All in all, we have a character who is a mighty spellcaster, who choose to use his powers for egoistic gains, disregarding the value of non-sentient life and accepting a risk on others. As an action it is pretty evil, although it isn't instant-alignment-change material. I can't really imagine a good character doing it though.

Two questions:
How do you plan to profit from it? (I might have to take this into account). They doesn't seem to carry gear, apart from a non-magical glaive.

Do you plan to summon the lions? If yes, they won't be ready when you summon the devil. This increases the risk of something going wrong. If not, it is going to be quite costly if they are killed.


Ok I see your points however;
Summoned creatures are (creation) not (calling) and thus not real creatures. They are magical manifestations of the creator/summoner's will in the shape of actual creatures.
Lesser planar binding calls a creature into a trap. Before they can attempt to break free they are attacked from all sides and shredded.
In my game I can telepathically communicate with my summoned creatures so I can have them ready an action to attack as soon as the devil appears.
Master summoner's summons last minutes per level, and lesser binding is instant so...yeah. its basically summoning a devil into a blender to collect on the bounty.
Actually I could see the government getting angry "you summoned MORE devils into the country!" "well... I needed the money :/" *teleports away*


Killing somthing you summon is just like touching your self. And about the handling over the corpse? It goes away when the summon dies.
But assuming your GM let that pass i think i would call your scheme fun but risky. If the autoritets have a stranding reward on Devils they may know the name and look of the ones they want dead.
It is a con so it is evil if you by doing it risk somebody elses Life. I would love my players PCs to try somthing like this but it would not work like you hope.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Cap. Darling wrote:
Killing somthing you summon is just like touching your self. And about the handling over the corpse? It goes away when the summon dies.

Called creatures, such as those summoned via planar binding, do not disappear. They actually die when killed.


That sounds like a pretty heroic deed. You can do it over and over until hell is empty and all the devils are dead. The universe will be a safer place. I'm sure there won't be any negative consequences for you whatsoever.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm pretty sure depleting an infinite plane is the definition of impossible.


Lol. I think my sarcastometer just broke. I was just wondering if its evil... I KNOW there will be consequences :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Killing somthing you summon is just like touching your self. And about the handling over the corpse? It goes away when the summon dies.
Called creatures, such as those summoned via planar binding, do not disappear. They actually die when killed.

Yes i ditent see the lower post where he said it was lesser planar binding they used. But the second they attack the devil it is free to return to hell or at least teleport away. And a government that have a stranding bounty on devils is still gonna know a lot about that sort of things, names and history of the lose devils that player the land and such.


Korthis wrote:

Ok I see your points however;

Summoned creatures are (creation) not (calling) and thus not real creatures. They are magical manifestations of the creator/summoner's will in the shape of actual creatures.
Lesser planar binding calls a creature into a trap. Before they can attempt to break free they are attacked from all sides and shredded.
In my game I can telepathically communicate with my summoned creatures so I can have them ready an action to attack as soon as the devil appears.
Master summoner's summons last minutes per level, and lesser binding is instant so...yeah. its basically summoning a devil into a blender to collect on the bounty.
Actually I could see the government getting angry "you summoned MORE devils into the country!" "well... I needed the money :/" *teleports away*

I does change part of it, for better and worse.

Looking at the rules, you should probably keep away from using dire lions. They are not going to kill it with ready actions (only 4 of them can stand around it), and they are going to break the calling diagram to get to it. So it would pretty much result in the devil teleporting away as soon as possible.

Offering up summoned creatures isn't quite as bad. Personally however, I see it as cruel behavior to risk harm even to summoned creatures, if there it isn't for a greater purpose. I probably would allow a druid having summoned animals fight for his own amusement.

The motivation actually gets a bit worse. I assume the country has troubles with devil, since they are offering a bounty for them. Instead of helping solve the problem, the character choose to exploit their problems, and cheat them to get their gold. That is pretty bad behavior.

And you are definately correct, that the character in question should hope not to be discovered. A state paying bounties on killing devils, is probably not tolerant of magicians calling devils into their realm.


Korthis wrote:
Lol. I think my sarcastometer just broke. I was just wondering if its evil... I KNOW there will be consequences :)

In the rules of the game calling a devil is evil.

But it is a very fun scheme that you should try and come back and tell us te outcome.


Also see my first post (dimensional anchor), its not teleporting anywhere. I guess (on hexagonal grid) 6 hound archons would be better (plus Dr/evil). I didn't think about size restraints.
Yes, calling a devil is evil. Killing a devil is good (especially a CE one. If its not doing evil now it certainly has and will again). Calling a devil to kill it is... ?
On the grand scale I'd say killing a devil > summoning one because you are stopping a great deal of future evil, however the reasons are selfish so :/
To be honest I don't know if I'd ever actually do it, I was just wondering "in what possible way is lesser binding useful" and this was what I came up with.


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Relying on bounties seems risky. But if you open an arena and hold demon-gladiator contests for public entertainment, who could possibly object to that?
Demon versus devil! Will chaos triumph over law?
Demon versus daemon! Who is better at spelling?
Demon versus grumpy paladin! One must fall!
Demon versus summoned lions!
Escaped demon versus careless summoner!

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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I vote

a) Chaotic, since you're cheating the bounty

and

b) Evil, since you're summoning an evil creature to this plane for profit

That your plan involves killing the devil is sort of besides the point. Double-crossing your allies (planar or otherwise) is total bad-guy behavior.


Korthis wrote:

Also see my first post (dimensional anchor), its not teleporting anywhere. I guess (on hexagonal grid) 6 hound archons would be better (plus Dr/evil). I didn't think about size restraints.

Yes, calling a devil is evil. Killing a devil is good (especially a CE one. If its not doing evil now it certainly has and will again). Calling a devil to kill it is... ?
On the grand scale I'd say killing a devil > summoning one because you are stopping a great deal of future evil, however the reasons are selfish so :/
To be honest I don't know if I'd ever actually do it, I was just wondering "in what possible way is lesser binding useful" and this was what I came up with.

Devils are not chaotic evil. but Lawfull evil is just as bad.

regarding the dimentional anchor. The way i read it is that it is linked to the circle against evil and when you attack you breake the circle.


Also you cannot redy an action outside combat. it will work like a surprise round and i assume most creatures callid in will be ready for betrayal upon arrival.
But regarding the original question. Yes it is evil, since it risks loosing a devil on the world and it dosent serve any higher purpose. but it only little evil and if it dosent go wrong it will be fine, i promise;)


As i said a bit up thread i would love for my players to try a scheme like this. partly because i like proactive heroes and partly because i like big plans that can go wrong:)
Edit: and please try it and tell us how it goes:)


You do know that an Evil Outsider will not die unless you kill it in the plane it's home to, right?

Really, a Summoner of that level should know such things. He'd basically summon that devil for nothing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
You do know that an Evil Outsider will not die unless you kill it in the plane it's home to, right?

Citation?


Korthis wrote:
So, long introduction and anecdotes aside; is it evil to set up say 6 to 10 dire lions, have them ready an action, and then summon a bearded devil (lesser planar binding) in the midst of them? Not from a "the bigger devils will eventually retaliate" point of view but from an alignment point of view?

Specific Situation: When lesser planar binding is used to bring in an evil outsider, it gains the [evil] descriptor, and becomes a spell of that type. So yes.

General Rule: Adventurers are basically just murder hobos, running around, breaking into monsters' homes, killing them, and taking their stuff. So no, killing on it's own isn't evil.


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Is casting an [Evil] spell actually an Evil act?

Anyways, murdering a creature for profit is evil, no matter how deserving the victim was. Murdering someone because he needs murdering and then profiting is cool, though.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Pupsocket wrote:

Is casting an [Evil] spell actually an Evil act?

Yes. Rules guy Sean K Reynolds has weighed in on this in the past. I'd have to dig up the thread.

Edit: Found it


Icyshadow wrote:

You do know that an Evil Outsider will not die unless you kill it in the plane it's home to, right?

Really, a Summoner of that level should know such things. He'd basically summon that devil for nothing.

That's ADnD 2nd edition.

Pathfinder:
Called creatures die for good.
Summoned creatures don't really die.


Oh, pardon my mistake then.


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Planar ally and planar binding aren't the same, you wouldn't be double crossing an ally...
But regardless I guess it falls to the old adage; "if you have to ask then you probably already know the answer"


It can also fall under "It feels wrong, but if enough people say it's ok then I can go with it".

Ohh and I can feel the taint on some of the people here agreeing.

-using an evil spell - a very subjective kind of evil, could as well be overruled if used for a noble purpose but..
-bringing a clearly evil entity onto the world - it's perfectly legal in some countries there, might even go with lawful..evil!
-risking harm on innocents if the evil gets loose - you assume it'll all go well so go with neutral evil
-killing when you don't have to - neutral evil at best, possible CE
-causing harm to another for no more than your own gain and without caring for possible consequences - chaotic evil
-cheating on good-intended deals (pretty sure the bounty is to reduce the ammount of devils loitering about, not to have a nice display of devil corpses in town) - not lawful at all, and definitely evil

long story short..FAAAAALLLLLL!! :)


Using their organs and body parts for something might be profitable too. I think skin and blood of devils and demons are spell components or something.

My wealth-generating scheme is a Unicorn farm. Capture a live Unicorn and restrain it. Cut off the horn and drain some blood. Cast regeneration and restoration (or give it rings of regeneration and sustenance). Repeat. Each horn is 1600 gp of components for making healing items. Which means it can be used for making healing items worth 3200 gp. So just mass-produce them and sell in bulk at a discount. Buy good security and lawers. Preferably ally with some evil church and make some bureaucrat allies who see how convenient it is to have abundant healing in their country. Secure contracts for healing items from people in high places, maybe even the army.

Going against a villain doing this and having support of the local establishment and police might even make for a tough adventure for chaotic good players.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Maklak wrote:

Using their organs and body parts for something might be profitable too. I think skin and blood of devils and demons are spell components or something.

My wealth-generating scheme is a Unicorn farm. Capture a live Unicorn and restrain it. Cut off the horn and drain some blood. Cast regeneration and restoration (or give it rings of regeneration and sustenance). Repeat. Each horn is 1600 gp of components for making healing items. Which means it can be used for making healing items worth 3200 gp. So just mass-produce them and sell in bulk at a discount. Buy good security and lawers. Preferably ally with some evil church and make some bureaucrat allies who see how convenient it is to have abundant healing in their country. Secure contracts for healing items from people in high places, maybe even the army.

Going against a villain doing this and having support of the local establishment and police might even make for a tough adventure for chaotic good players.

Cutting off the horn kills the unicorn. Or it can't be removed unless the unicorn is dead. That's how I've always played it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, you're more than just killing for profit. You're creating the problem to profit by "solving".


> Cutting off the horn kills the unicorn. Or it can't be removed unless the unicorn is dead. That's how I've always played it.
Aw, too bad. But it does solve an exploit and answers why no one does this.

As for the original idea of summoning evil outsiders to kill them, I think it would be doable to forego the dire lions and instead put an aquarium filled with holly water inside the summoning circle. Or failing that, a gelatinous cube. It would be an equivalent of an acid bath (depending on how you count it, 10d6, 20d6 or 20d4 damage per turn) and would make concentration for teleporting out pretty much impossible. If holly water dissolves the outsiders, making claiming the prize impossible, or this process gradually weakens or depletes the holly water (say by 1l per 4d4 damage), it would be much less profitable. Still entertaining, though.


I don't see anything in the Bestiary stating that cutting off a Unicorn's horn kills it. Am I missing it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Democratus wrote:
I don't see anything in the Bestiary stating that cutting off a Unicorn's horn kills it. Am I missing it?

You are one of those rules lawyers at heart aren't you? It's called one of many GMs' explanations why cheap get rich quick schemes aren't being used already by people far more imaginative than the PCs. It's also possibly to point out that a game setting isn't just a bundle of rules mechanics, and why unicorns aren't just horses with horns growing on their heads.


LazarX wrote:
Democratus wrote:
I don't see anything in the Bestiary stating that cutting off a Unicorn's horn kills it. Am I missing it?
You are one of those rules lawyers at heart aren't you? It's called one of many GMs' explanations why cheap get rich quick schemes aren't being used already by people far more imaginative than the PCs. It's also possibly to point out that a game setting isn't just a bundle of rules mechanics, and why unicorns aren't just horses with horns growing on their heads.

I was asking if I was missing the rule. No need to get all "you're one of those..." on me.

The rules are the one thing we all have in common on these forums. If I was to go to my DM or players and bring up the unicorn horn thing, the first response I would (rightly) get is, "where does it say that?"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Democratus wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Democratus wrote:
I don't see anything in the Bestiary stating that cutting off a Unicorn's horn kills it. Am I missing it?
You are one of those rules lawyers at heart aren't you? It's called one of many GMs' explanations why cheap get rich quick schemes aren't being used already by people far more imaginative than the PCs. It's also possibly to point out that a game setting isn't just a bundle of rules mechanics, and why unicorns aren't just horses with horns growing on their heads.

I was asking if I was missing the rule. No need to get all "you're one of those..." on me.

The rules are the one thing we all have in common on these forums. If I was to go to my DM or players and bring up the unicorn horn thing, the first response I would (rightly) get is, "where does it say that?"

I guess I really can't explain why I see that as a sorry state of affairs.

Shadow Lodge

Good and evil is about intent, not action. If you are killing for sport, you are evil. If you are doing this because this monster is killing the locals and this is the only way you can come up with to stop it, then you are good. The question is, how are you justifying performing this act?


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Here's a rule of thumb. Hunting devils = Okay. Hunting psychic teenage girls and threatening to torture adorable ship mechanics = Not okay

does that seem right to you

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:


Cutting off the horn kills the unicorn. Or it can't be removed unless the unicorn is dead. That's how I've always played it.

No, the answer is much more simple than that. You CAN'T cut off the Unicorn's horn... there is no mechanic or rule for cutting off body parts with the exception of a Vorpal weapon which only severs heads.

You would have to house rule a "Vorpal Light" weapon property that cuts off non head appendeges.

Ergo, the Regeneration spell is ueless. Which further invalidates the Unicorn horn farm. ;)

/removes tougue from cheek

On topic, summoning a devil/demon for information/destruction has been done in many fantasy stories. Call it up, bind it in someway... destroy it, ask it to tea, go nuts.

Of course if you are trying for a specific devil... take a look at Ultimate Magic and True Names. On the other hand, if you just want random Ice Devil #5 then Planar Bind away!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:

Relying on bounties seems risky. But if you open an arena and hold demon-gladiator contests for public entertainment, who could possibly object to that?

Demon versus devil! Will chaos triumph over law?
Demon versus daemon! Who is better at spelling?
Demon versus grumpy paladin! One must fall!
Demon versus summoned lions!
Escaped demon versus careless summoner!

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!

AND TRUCKASAURUS!


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

b) Evil, since you're summoning an evil creature to this plane for profit

That your plan involves killing the devil is sort of besides the point. Double-crossing your allies (planar or otherwise) is total bad-guy behavior.

Eh, summoning an evil creature may be technically an evil act (according to a designer's Word of God), but I don't believe it'd really push you over the edge. Evil spells are more complicated than "true" evil acts, like murder, and require that you talk to the GM to see how he interprets it.

Honestly, I've never seen a GM who would say summoning a fiendish riding dog turns you evil. After all, by that logic, True Neutral wizards would be forced to only summon celestials, and that seems a tad extreme. What's the point in being Neutral if you can't summon the odd demon, after all? ;D

Verdant Wheel

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It a setting prerogative that casting [evil] spells is a evil act. You don't know if every time a devil is summoned a baby unicorn don't die somewhere. We don't know why, itś simply evil.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

b) Evil, since you're summoning an evil creature to this plane for profit

That your plan involves killing the devil is sort of besides the point. Double-crossing your allies (planar or otherwise) is total bad-guy behavior.

Eh, summoning an evil creature may be technically an evil act (according to a designer's Word of God), but I don't believe it'd really push you over the edge. Evil spells are more complicated than "true" evil acts, like murder, and require that you talk to the GM to see how he interprets it.

Honestly, I've never seen a GM who would say summoning a fiendish riding dog turns you evil. After all, by that logic, True Neutral wizards would be forced to only summon celestials, and that seems a tad extreme. What's the point in being Neutral if you can't summon the odd demon, after all? ;D

It's evil. Performing a single evil act doesn't turn you evil.

Summoning celestials is Good act, so the True Neutral wizard couldn't do that under that logic.


Yeah, wizards can cast whatever spells they like. It's clerics who have to watch out. A wizard can cast Good or Evil spells without a problem, as, like you said, it doesn't turn you evil instantly. If you do it too often, though...

EDIT: Out of curiosity, are Evil spells allowed in PFS? I think the answer to that will resolve this side discussion pretty tidily.

Ultimately, the purpose is Neutral, not Evil. All we need to confirm is that the means are Neutral, too.


Korthis wrote:
Well assume the animals are summoned and thus not real. (i.e. master summoner lvl 10 Summons a bunch of monsters, magic circle + dimensional anchor + lesser planar binding) slaughters the devil and then turns the corpse over to the government to collect a bounty for devil killing.

It still seems like you are picking a fight where there was none. Your justification for doing this is very vague considering that the devil was minding his own business off in his own plain. At best, you are saying 'he was going to do...something... eventually".

I could somewhat see this approach with certain demons though, at least if they had the ability to travel between plains normally. I mean, unlike devils, which might have desk jobs in hell, demons are generally just disruptive of any environment in which they exist. So if this thing can go around by popping into towns, slaughter everyone there, and then just pop back home in time to cook the people for dinner, then thinning the herd might be reasonable, since it would be hard to anticipate when they are picking a fight with your plain.

But the circumstances of the bounty also seems like it might bring problems. Is it for an established population (the devils that live in Hell's Mouth Cave). Then you are faking your bounty without actually doing the service they intended for you to do, which is evil (or chaotic ; whatever; summoning devils for profit makes the overall situation clear enough).

If it is just a standing payment for bringing the head of any devil, for whatever reason...then that bounty seems merely like self gratification on the part of the ones giving it, since it would serve little purpose (again, it was not necessarily picking a fight, and you summoned it and risked giving it a reason to pick a fight). Morally dubious at best.

Maklak wrote:

Using their organs and body parts for something might be profitable too. I think skin and blood of devils and demons are spell components or something.

My wealth-generating scheme is a Unicorn farm. Capture a live Unicorn and restrain it. Cut off the horn and drain some blood. Cast regeneration and restoration (or give it rings of regeneration and sustenance). Repeat. Each horn is 1600 gp of components for making healing items. Which means it can be used for making healing items worth 3200 gp. So just mass-produce them and sell in bulk at a discount. Buy good security and lawers. Preferably ally with some evil church and make some bureaucrat allies who see how convenient it is to have abundant healing in their country. Secure contracts for healing items from people in high places, maybe even the army.

Going against a villain doing this and having support of the local establishment and police might even make for a tough adventure for chaotic good players.

Ah, found this after writing the above response. Well, if it is for spell components, then I might, might lean towards neutral. That is an actual purpose, and it might help people since it is used for healing spell components. Still, there is a lot of risk, and you are just doing it for the money, so it would be neutral, with a slightly evil leaning since the spell itself is evil and dangerous.

The Exchange

You're not killing anything in your example. Did you mean to ask "Is it evil for others to kill evil for my profit?"

The Exchange

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
EDIT: Out of curiosity, are Evil spells allowed in PFS?

Yes.


There is a specific kind of Demon that was created from the evil souls of people who enjoyed this kind of trick.

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