What to do against an AC 30+ monk?


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DrDeth wrote:
Taow wrote:
What does he do for the party? I build an awesome high AC monk with snake style to get AoOs every time someone misses. I then realized nobody was going to miss, because they weren't going to attack me.

Not every monster has Skill Focus in Metagaming. ;-)

It's not metagaming to realize the naked guy in front is tickling you, while that sorcerer is making fire.


DrDeth wrote:


Ok, so DR silver & Iron are low, and Ki gets thru them. DR magic tends to be High, but the Monk gets thru them.

At higher levels, the Monk also gets thru DR Adamantine and lawful.

That leaves Good/Evil. So, when fighting Demons, he's gonna need a spell. Most tanks will, just not paladins.

And DR/- and DR/Slashing and DR/Piercing. All things a monk has trouble getting around and getting his full bonuses against depending on build or things he literally can't get around at all and suffers badly against unlike many other "Tanks" who concentrate their damage more than a monk does.

Lantern Lodge

Keep in mind that intelligent foes might realize hitting the monk is impossible, and simply try to grapple him. Throw Improved Grapple on a Huge golem if you *really* want to be mean. Don't forget that at that point they are getting a +2 size bonus to their grapple check, which stacks with the +2 bonus from Improved Grapple.

Once the Monk is pinned, he loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. It gets worse though, since he is a monk. Pinned or immobilized monks lose their Wisdom bonus to AC, as well as their Monk bonus.

With the -4 grapple penalty to dexterity, he is losing probably 2 AC just from that. All of his dexterity bonus, which is probably at least 3-4, and his Wisdom bonus for another 4. Plus the Monk bonus doesn't apply to an immobilized monk. That should put him back down at minus 8 to 10AC. If you really want to add insult to injury, nail the monk with something that targets his touch AC. Enemy with an empowered shocking grasp (for which there is no save), golems with stoneskin buffs or hell just go as far to Dispel Magic on him and get rid of Barkskin.

If the BBEG is a Wizard, just throw a persisted Hold Person on the Monk. Move mooks in to grapple and pin him, for which he gets no roll or reaction since HP is already up.

Monks are in trouble if they can't move around. Best way to deal with Monks is to either immobilize the Monk in question or just target his touch AC or CMD.

Another thing, how does he constantly have Barkskin, Mage Armor and Shield running? Make sure he is paying dearly for activating these buffs in combat. Each is a standard action, and their duration is minutes/level NOT permanent.

Lantern Lodge

One more thing, how does a level 6 character afford a +3 mighty fists amulet? That's a 36,000 gp item lol... Sorry but I think your friend is cheesing you on this one. What's especially funny is that he'd be entering combat in round 3 in order to have Shield, Mage Armor and Barkskin activated in every fight.

Regarding the wands.. (LOL)

Rules as written: No, he cannot use the wands. That's a 20 DC Use magic device skill (not on the monk skill list) check just to activate the wand.

I've played with guys like this before, and he may not like to hear it but this smells like an illegal character. If he has a class level in sorcerer or something, sure then maybe he can use the wands with no UMD check.

Shadow Lodge

Anguy wrote:

Hello!

I'm quite new to the game despite some experience in D&D 3.0 10 years ago, which I have forgotten everything about, so please bear with me. Also I'm not from any english speaking country so there might be some grammatical mistakes here :) .
I started to play Pathfinder with a nice group in november last year and have been a PC for all that time and had cartloads of fun. We decided to change GMs soon though and it's my turn now and I will be facing a group at around level 6, which consists of a Shapechanger, a Barbarian, a Witch and the aforementioned monk. The first major hurdle the group has to take was supposed to be a small hidout/dungeon inhabiting only some constructs since the actual people that lived there vanished quite some time ago. Now to the problem that I think I will be facing: I created some golem type enemies at around CR6 that are supposed to roam the facility and which also are pretty much vital to a later door opening puzzle. These guys have 2 slam attacks with a +8 modifier and will be facing said monk with his almost permanent 30 something AC. What can I do to not ramp up the CR so significantly that monsters can hit that guy but will probably flatten the rest of the group but will still be ablo to hit him without rolling a natural 20?

I'd be especially interested in ways to make it interesting for this particular dungeon with just constructs in it but also I would have to do some serious thinking for the rest of the campaign so any suggestions how to deal with him in general would be greatly appreciated as well.

I've got an earlier character sheet of the monk here which has been changed a bit as far as my friend told me but it's basically the finished character that's present in the campaign minus some minor changes:

  • Qinggong Monk level 6, Dwarf, around 65 HP
  • St: 18 (20 through belt of giant strength)
  • Dex: 16
  • Con: 17
  • In: 8
  • Wis: 20 (22 through Headband of wisdom)
  • Cha: 6

  • Initiative: 7
  • AC: 24 (unbuffed, he has a Wand of
...

I know what you should do! rub it in the faces of the people who say monks are broken

in all seriousness try a mirror of opposition.
those are always fun.
for some variary, you're going to want things that
A: have a high + to hit (or lots of attacks) but a low + to damage, a dex or cha (with the feat weapon trickery) fighters (not necessarily the class, I just mean combatant)
B: hits at lower than full AC, things like bards, paladins, or ninjas who focus on feinting or rouges, ninjas or rangers who use stealth, mages who use touch/ranged touch spells, gunslingers
Ba: spells that don't take AC into account, like fireball, or dominate or hold person, yes he has perfect saves, a high wisdom and evasion, it may still work
C: traps. gotta love them traps

Sovereign Court

High strength construct, Large or Huge, with Improved Grapple. No AoO and it gets crazy bonuses to its grapple check. Once he's grappled he loses dex and all his monk bonuses to AC.


grease(spell) removes dex while on the effected squares. Most constructs don't have a dex bonus to speak of. Can have a room with that covering the floor and several constructs to battle as a one time obstacle encounter.


Did I mention already that I love you guys? Thanks for all the advice!

@bob the monster: that +3 Mighty fist amulet was a mistake on my part. It's +1. Concerning the wands he told me he's aware of him not being able to use them but the party Witch will help him out there.


Anguy wrote:

Did I mention already that I love you guys? Thanks for all the advice!

@bob the monster: that +3 Mighty fist amulet was a mistake on my part. It's +1. Concerning the wands he told me he's aware of him not being able to use them but the party Witch will help him out there.

An option that can work for wand spells although not for Shield if he's using that.

Also remember ki buffing AC is one round per ki point spent and he should only have about 9 total for the day cut out 3 or so for Barkskin when adventuring and that leaves him with around 6 to split between bonus attacks and 1 round AC boosts should be pretty easy to bleed them off.

Frankly it's the hugely inflated stats that are giving him so much power, I mean we play with a 30pb in my group and that is still obscene in comparison. Not to mention it's really unlikely sure it happens but double 18s with two other solid scores is pretty suspect if you don't see the rolling yourself although that's besides the point I suppose.

Flat footed touch still hits him pretty hard(loses barkskin mage armor and dex which would knock him down 10AC), I think you're at a level where greater invisibility could show up and that should knock him down a peg.

Alternatively fast flying enemies with ranged attacks give him very few options he might not die at all but he'll feel real useless.


Rathendar wrote:
grease(spell) removes dex while on the effected squares. Most constructs don't have a dex bonus to speak of. Can have a room with that covering the floor and several constructs to battle as a one time obstacle encounter.

Grease dosent work like that in PF.


bob_the_monster wrote:

One more thing, how does a level 6 character afford a +3 mighty fists amulet? That's a 36,000 gp item lol... Sorry but I think your friend is cheesing you on this one. What's especially funny is that he'd be entering combat in round 3 in order to have Shield, Mage Armor and Barkskin activated in every fight.

Regarding the wands.. (LOL)

Rules as written: No, he cannot use the wands. That's a 20 DC Use magic device skill (not on the monk skill list) check just to activate the wand.

I've played with guys like this before, and he may not like to hear it but this smells like an illegal character. If he has a class level in sorcerer or something, sure then maybe he can use the wands with no UMD check.

While Shield is a target self spell I don't think the wand would work unless he activates it himself.

Barkskin though is 10 min/level so he'd have an hour per activation at this point. Mage Armor is an hour/level as well, so he can activate it as he enters the dungeon at the same time as he activates barkskin. So, for the most part, it works, but he'd need a potion of shield to use that on himself.


Shield can't be a potion, self spells can't be potions IIRC.


I want his stats... so I can be a beast!


TGMaxMaxer wrote:
Shield can't be a potion, self spells can't be potions IIRC.

Good catch. Though to be fair, looking back through the thread, I don't see where the OP stated the monk was using Shield. ;P


Anguy wrote:

Did I mention already that I love you guys? Thanks for all the advice!

@bob the monster: that +3 Mighty fist amulet was a mistake on my part. It's +1. Concerning the wands he told me he's aware of him not being able to use them but the party Witch will help him out there.

Remember action economy: he has to pass her the wands before she can use them. Also, wand of mage armour is ridiculously easy to dispel.

Have the golems have a stored dispel magic they activate on going into combat to debuff foes...

Shadow Lodge

The best way for a GM to deal with "nova" PCs is to make his NPCs pro-active. I.e., don't just have them sitting around waiting to die when the PCs come in powered-up. Have your bad guys sneak around and ambush.


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
The best way for a GM to deal with "nova" PCs is to make his NPCs pro-active. I.e., don't just have them sitting around waiting to die when the PCs come in powered-up. Have your bad guys sneak around and ambush.

Likewise make them do their homework: does he have some defence to prevent scrying? Does he have people he would gladly die to save? Does he have a routine he adheres to in his daily life? Can he be 'taken out of the picture' for a short time - e.g. a "letter from his 'master', asking for help..." in order to split him from the other pcs? Can their 'reputation' be destroyed?

No pc is more powerful than the world in which they 'inhabit'. If they are paranoid to the point of not interacting with anyone but the other pcs, then the good aligned clerics in white coats may come knocking...

There is always a way and a means.

Sczarni

Personally, I'd just let him shine. A Qinggong Monk by itself, that is as good as it'll ever get for him. Everyone else will surpass him in every other way. Don't take away all he has left.
I would alter the creature intelligence a bit, to possibly ignore him after one or two swings, and just attack someone else. There are options to counter his high AC though, if you really want to. Invisibility is a good start, and Dispel could easily take away his barkskin and mage armor. Trip is always an option, and potentially disarming him.
Honestly though, that high Ac is really the only thing the Monk shines in.. try not to take that away or he will feel useless. As the levels go by it'll become easier to hit him since his AC really doesn't scale very well in the longrun.
It also seems like you gave a fairly high point buy...

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