I like writing things taking place in the pathfinder universe(and putting some of those things into my games). One story I had an idea for was a half-orc thrown out of his tribe for being lame in the leg(he became an oracle). He later converts to Shelyn and wants to convert his old orc tribe and maybe other tribes. How would he go about this? The orcs aren't just going to stand there well he goes on and on about 'Good lady Shelyn! You should worship her!' Maybe if was powerful(level 15 or so) and had cohorts with different abilities?
I seem to remember one PF book actually discussed this, but I can't remember which one.
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Oh, isn't there a paladin archetype for pretty much this purpose? The Redeemer?. It seems like it could work well, since Shelyn is within one step of LG.
Mechanically, it works well since the level 8 ability, Pact of Peace, acts as a lesser geas spell that mainly works to set a simple prohibition to prevent them from hurting people of a certain group or area. Doing this against an orc leader in a duel, and betting some extra arts and crafts homework on the side, could have a powerful impact.
Also, try getting into a group of Cavaliers that follow the Order of the Blue Rose. They are the peace makers generally, and they deal a lot with causing nonlethal damage and fair terms for those willing to surrender.
Anyway, sorry I can't help with the book you were thinking of specifically. Mostly familiar with very barebones mechanics rather than the supporting background material.
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But for now confirming that Redeemer and Shelyn go together beautifully.
There's also the possibility of being a half-orc aasimar with that feat from Blood of Angels which is all about being a sort of chosen one to lead a specific race towards something better. Depending on how you view non-human aasimars, this may or may not be too far from "half-orc" for your purposes.
*Hits head* How could I have forgotten about the redeemer? I'd read about it but forgot it. I didn't think of the impact of beating on orc leader in a duel. A half-orc aasimar would be fine if I decide to go that route. Thanks for the suggestions!
I think that book was either Faiths of Purity or Champions of Purity.
If someone tried converting me, I'd want to know what's in it for me. And if my current god gives me goodies, why Shelyn's (if any) are better.
I've thought of that, and I couldn't come up with some real tangible ones I could show them at the moment. I wondered if it would be better for a group of dedicated half-orcs to either purchase or outright kidnap orc babies so they can be raised in a loving environment. But this raises new questions. Is it alright to take away someone's children if those parents are evil and the child will be raised the same way? This wouldn't solve the inherent problems in orc society that leads to them being evil either.
Looking at Golarion though and the make-up of the cities which we have stats for, it would seem evil humanoids are nearly impossible to convert. If it were easy to domesticate them then surely you would expect Golarion's oldest cities (some of which are literally thousands of years old) to have noticeable populations of converted humanoids.
The only monstrous ones mentioned in city description seem to remain monstrous - such as the goblins and trolls in Irissen's capital, the gnolls in Katapesh's cities and such.
That's what I was afraid of. I guess I should stick to my homebrew world.
Looking at Golarion though and the make-up of the cities which we have stats for, it would seem evil humanoids are nearly impossible to convert. If it were easy to domesticate them then surely you would expect Golarion's oldest cities (some of which are literally thousands of years old) to have noticeable populations of converted humanoids.
The only monstrous ones mentioned in city description seem to remain monstrous - such as the goblins and trolls in Irissen's capital, the gnolls in Katapesh's cities and such.
Meh, I dislike thinking of it as just plain 'always evil'. I have taken enough socioeconomic classes to think of the circumstances beyond that, and I vaguely know enough about orcs to realize that they are ultimately victims.
Firstly, they were originally denizens of the underdark during the Age of Darkness. Presumably, they did not actually start there, but instead they got forced into the region in a manner similar to the drow. You can hardly blame them for that.
But that is not all. After they settled in that region, their culture faced a major blow from a surprising source: the so called 'lawful good' dwarves. It was their Quest for the Sky that both displaced the orcs and in fact reduced their numbers and leadership. 'The good die young' as it were, since I vaguely remember mention in a previous discussion about this topic mentioning that it was the 'good' orcs that fought and died holding off the dwarves while the young, sick, and old escaped. While I can't entirely condemn the dwarves for their actions (they were just as much victims of the underdarks as orcs were), you must admit that this set up the whole 'orc problem' that would continue until the present time.
So in the end, you have a race that have been slightly twisted by the dark energies and mutagens of the underdark, forced from their homes, and left without their more capable workers. This obviously would lead them into dire straights (in a way that has some similarities to Native American populations that were forcibly removed from their lands and relocated to reservations). So could you blame them for being angry? Especially so when the dwarves, who drove them into this situation, became socially accepted while they were ostracized and demonized. Of course, this all leads to a vicious cycle where victims become the aggressors who are worthy of being ostracized and demonized.
So over all, if you do not skip over all of that, then you are going to have to deal with some heavy stuff and find answers to real world problems that we are still struggling with today as a culture. If you are interested in my comparison with Native Americans, I could give a list some books you could look at which could serve well as a starting point for creating a perspective on an orc culture that is not merely a sideshow full of foam mouthed, pignosed barbarians:
2.) The Truth About Stories By Thomas King- an excellent look at narratives, personal experiences, and the struggle with both improving the situation while dealing with the threat of alienation with your own culture
3.) Anything by Sherman Alexie. My familiarity with The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven (which also got made into the movie Smoke Signals) makes me suggest that. Highly entertaining read.
Also note: I am not in the least an expert on Native American literature. I am simply suggesting some of the works I have personally read and found highly enlightening.
But remember, while we might be able to draw parallels between real cultures and those presented in fiction, you still have to address the unique facets found within the world you are given if you are not going to make your own world. Your readers are going to expect Orcs to be part of a highly martial culture that respects strength and dominance first and foremost. So, you must deal with this expectation. Follow through with it, subvert it, avert it, however you like. Just realize that you must try to anticipate the reader's reactions, and hold respect for that. So yes, most likely you are going to have to smack some heads, especially since the orcs do no have to allow you a voice. That is why I suggested teaming up with the Order of the Rose, since they both support a peaceful solution, uphold that ideal in combat, and they are not too shabby at helping you keep your head on your shoulders.
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That's what I was afraid of. I guess I should stick to my homebrew world.Looking at Golarion though and the make-up of the cities which we have stats for, it would seem evil humanoids are nearly impossible to convert. If it were easy to domesticate them then surely you would expect Golarion's oldest cities (some of which are literally thousands of years old) to have noticeable populations of converted humanoids.
The only monstrous ones mentioned in city description seem to remain monstrous - such as the goblins and trolls in Irissen's capital, the gnolls in Katapesh's cities and such.
Don't get discouraged!
It's actually not as bad as that. Will clarify when I get some time cleared at work.
edit: Lemeres is spot on, but there's still more besides that to encourage you.
Ah, I'll have to look into those books. One thing that puzzles me is that orcs have no racial god. Why is that? Where did they come from if a god didn't create them? The goblinoids at least have a creation story, in which the four goblin hero-gods killed mortal creatures and the first goblins came from the spilled blood.
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That clarification:
Re: Monstrous races staying "monstrous", this isn't an absolute across Golarion. Kaer Maga for example sports a decidedly non-evil troll culture(among many other races). Examples of non-evil goblins living in human settlements are now scattered across the setting. An Absalom adventure featured a hobgoblin on jury duty.
There are also now strong hints that orcs actually do have non-horrible cultures here and there, especially given the backgrounds of rainkin and sandkin half-orcs.
And the fact remains that the Redeemer exists, as does that aasimar feat and Sarenrae herself. I'd say that alone is proof that redemption can work.
It can be frustrating when the setting seems to skimp on examples of it working. I know that part of the reasoning behind it is "to give heroes something to do", but still examples would help because it can be discouraging at times, especially when it leads to claims that it can't work at all.
That said, some specifics to support you on orcs:
Orcs of Golarion may not have been much help at all on this subject, but it does ahve two lines of note. First, orc paladins apparently exist, so if that is possible, then the much lower bar of having a number of non-evil orcs has got be getting met somewhere.
Second, the orcs pushed to the surface by the dwarves genocidal Quest For Sky apparently did have redeeming values, particularly when they held the line against their pursuers to let their weak, elderly, and children get ahead to safety. That rather flies in the face of the usual simple Always Chaotic Evil descriptions they get lumped with.
There's more elsewhere. The orcs of Belkzen have been undergoing a real schism in the past century or so, with more tribes turning to Gorum worship rather than Rovagug. These Gorumite tribes have been characterized as less monstrous and being more "worthy opponent" types for their Gorumite Lastwall counterparts. If there's a major cultural shift towards something better in Belkzen's future, it's most likely going to spin out of that, barring extreme outside influence(like that of PCs).
There's also the matter of a recent popular half-orc NPC's parentage, involving a loving, consensual human-orc coupling(freaking finally), with the orc being rather heroic to boot.
Finally, there are the hints dropped in Bastards of Golarion, with the orc tribes of the Mwangi apparently specializing in anti-demon tactics to hold back the predations of Usaro. These tribes are also entering into consensual intermarriage with human Mwangi tribes, strengthening both and better enabling them to fight back against the demonic forces of the Gorilla King. And then there's the orcs that are producing the sandkin, whose culture now seems to be largely led by their (unusually diplomatic) half-orc children. There may also be something behind the cragkin. Digging deep for that, because orcs with Shoanti culture = PERFECT.
Re: Racial gods, the orcs of Belkzen at the very least do have those simplified concept gods from OoG. Whether those are their gods of old or not, I'm not sure. What is certain is that Rovagug wasn't even known by the orcs until they were introduced to him by humans during the Age of Darkness, so there's more evidence that the worst elements of stereotypical orc culture are something that was acquired rather than inborn. (Personally, I think it's long past time some tribes were introduced to The Burning Angel. Who knows, some of the sandkin-related tribes may have done that already.) Considering that Gorum is seen by many as a sort of racial god for half-orcs, that might be feeding into the current shift in Belkzen.
Re: Stealing their children. Honestly, it's something I'd personally prefer to avoid, not the least of which because it's way too similar to real life scenarios that played out in real world history with groups of innocent people being targetted with that.(Australia's Lost Generation is one famous example of this) One could argue that it's a very different situation given that the cultures being dealt with here really are monstrous and terrible, and while it may be distasteful and extremely uncomfortable, it's what we're stuck with because that's all the setting gives us to work with. Personally, I'd prefer to be able to win over and work with some of the adults and find some of their culture that was salvagable and worth preserving, keeping the best and throwing out the worst, leading them in a different direction. It would be slow going and hard work, but it would sit better than organized abduction and copmlete cultural genocide. But again, it really helps if the work is put into giving those cultures some nuance and redeemable elements to begin with.
But as mentioned earlier, those elements apparently exist. It just takes some looking to dig them out. :)
Best bet for a Shelynite half-orc to convert a tribe? S/he's going to have to be able to speak their language. Defeating their chief in a show of strength certainly qualifies, especially if that half-orc can capitalize on that victory to show how Shelyn breeds more strength than self-destructive Rovagug.
It's not an exact analogue, but looking at Urdnot Wrex's approach to dragging his people towards a better future is definitely worth a look.
Mikaze, I think we're kindred spirits over the joy I got from reading this ;). And yes, I really didn't like the idea of abducting their children either. It's just I thought that if the adults were immune to conversion which some things suggest(like the population numbers in cities suggest), that would be the only way to get 'good' members of those races.
Gorum would be a good fit for non-evil orcs, though I'd prefer a solidly good god(chaotic-good or neutral-good, and not necessarily Shelyn, I was just using her as an example).
One problem concerning other evil races would be the conversion of bugbears. They just seem so sadistic, and the fact they feed on fear is a major impediment to conversion.
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Mikaze, I think we're kindred spirits over the joy I got from reading this ;). And yes, I really didn't like the idea of abducting their children either. It's just I thought that if the adults were immune to conversion which some things suggest(like the population numbers in cities suggest), that would be the only way to get 'good' members of those races.
Gorum would be a good fit for non-evil orcs, though I'd prefer a solidly good god(chaotic-good or neutral-good, and not necessarily Shelyn, I was just using her as an example).
One problem concerning other evil races would be the conversion of bugbears. They just seem so sadistic, and the fact they feed on fear is a major impediment to conversion.
Same'd. :)
And honestly, I think Shelyn can work, it's just that you might have to come up with certain interpretations of what she's about to get her to fully click with typical Golarion orcs. If it works, that brings a lot of possibilities forth, especially with how Shelyn's influence could break down the brutal sexism.
Bugbears? Could be tricky... On the one hand, you'd typically be dealing with them on an individual basis since social folks they ain't. But there probably is a much higher degree of sociopathy given how they're portrayed in Golarion specifically. Even I had to cop to the fact that Pathfinder made it particularly hard with them, but I don't think it's impossible.
Best bet for a Shelynite half-orc to convert a tribe? S/he's going to have to be able to speak their language. Defeating their chief in a show of strength certainly qualifies, especially if that half-orc can capitalize on that victory to show how Shelyn breeds more strength than self-destructive Rovagug.
An interesting approach to that might be to try to have a beautiful fighting technique. To overturn the crude lashing of a dominant orc with graceful technique that leaves him no room to hit or even stop your onslaught.
Unfortunately, my first thought with that idea, dervish dance, is more directly tied with Sarenrae. Admittedly, introducing them to a god of redemption (and fire, pretty, pretty fire) might not be too bad an idea.
But back to the main problem: if you are going to try to draw a tribe that has specialized in raiding towards a more peaceful alternative...you are going to have to give them a sustainable alternative. It takes a long time to try to overcome the harsh feelings and distrust between orcs and humans... and unfortunately, winters are rarely forgiving enough to wait while the farmers become willing to lend their plows.
One solution would be to take the worship of Gorum and try to turn them into an honorable society of mercenaries (certainly not impossible; the Swiss are widely accepted today despite the fact that they were the source of the most feared mercenaries in Europe). Of course, that would entail training and organizing them into an effective fighting force, since you would otherwise have to overcome the notion that you are simply turning them into cannon fodder for other peoples' benefit. While they certainly would accept your suggestions (since my understanding of fluff is that half-orcs are often relied upon as the 'brains' of their culture), you certainly have to also be wary of making them even more effective at causing damage.
Boy would that be one lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG campaign. Fast forward into the future a few years and let's just say that converts hope was high enough, but up against those impossible DC's of orcan determination I believe that hope might still bring renewal as long as no other orcan tribes or any other evil humanoids are affiliated with.
The tribe would literally have to be segregated for a long period of time from the rest of their species. Isolated and uninvolved with any evil humanoids.
They would literally have to remove themselves from anything impure and corruptive; otherwise the pressures and triggers would reverberate and cause them to revert and maintain their standard alignment path.
Boy would that be one lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG campaign. Fast forward into the future a few years and let's just say that converts hope was high enough, but up against those impossible DC's of orcan determination I believe that hope might still bring renewal as long as no other orcan tribes or any other evil humanoids are affiliated with.
The tribe would literally have to be segregated for a long period of time from the rest of their species. Isolated and uninvolved with any evil humanoids.
They would literally have to remove themselves from anything impure and corruptive; otherwise the pressures and triggers would reverberate and cause them to revert and maintain their standard alignment path.
I don't quite like the term 'standard alignment path', but I get the general point that reforming individuals, particularly on the community level, is a long and complicated process where the temptation to 'fall off the wagon' is very strong.
While encounters with 'negative influences' would certainly be a trigger, I could just as easily see the spark in racial tension, supply shortages, epidemics, or other environmental stressors.